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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 10:31:40
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Hi All,
I have just read through the Dragon 357 article on Sem and Ashem (two of my favorite realms NPC personalities), however I see that both of them have changed alignments since their ealier 3.0/3.5 writeups. Particularly in the case of Ashemmi who has basically done a complete 180 in terms of her AL stat.
Has this taken place in any of the more recent novels that I may have not had a chance to read yet. I think the last novel I read with Ashemmi in it was Thornhold a few years back.
thanks 
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 14:40:42
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Dunno, but how I read Blackstaff, they were not that "changed". Just don't tell me any one of them got a "good" somewhere?  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 15:45:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Dunno, but how I read Blackstaff, they were not that "changed". Just don't tell me any one of them got a "good" somewhere?
Cough.... one of them is now CG. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 16:52:05
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| And it happened during the "big magic-thingie" near the end of Blackstaff. Written quite clearly too, (which didn't stop me from missing it on my first read...) |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2007 : 14:27:40
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Page 335 to be exact.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2007 : 23:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Dunno, but how I read Blackstaff, they were not that "changed". Just don't tell me any one of them got a "good" somewhere?
Cough.... one of them is now CG. :)
Here's how I interpret it: Ashemmi's original alignment was CG, so she's simply returned to how she was supposed to be.
I have to say, while I liked the Dragon article, I came away from it with the impression that Semmemon and Ashemmi were more hapless/unlucky than truly dangerous (contrary to the introduction of said article). Then again, Semmemon's been a "soft" (not scary) villain for a while now. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Jul 2007 00:00:25 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 10:19:21
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Unlucky in love, I would agree with you. They are ruthless foes though - much of the text on their battle styles (Ashemmi is the spoiler, Sememmon is the blaster with liberal use of 'charmed' meat shields) got cut. Also, their Moonstar exploits got cut also. Don't cross Sememmon - he holds grudges.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 02:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Unlucky in love, I would agree with you. They are ruthless foes though - much of the text on their battle styles (Ashemmi is the spoiler, Sememmon is the blaster with liberal use of 'charmed' meat shields) got cut. Also, their Moonstar exploits got cut also. Don't cross Sememmon - he holds grudges.
I believe you, I just got the impression from the article that they were unlucky in general, not just unlucky in love. The skeptical side of me thinks, just how resourceful can they be if they both spent years being wrapped around Manshoon's finger? I was shocked at how many years Semmemon spent trying to slip away from his former master. For a long time, he was basically Manshoon's "bitch".
Not that that's really a bad thing--I actually like it when villains have a human side and aren't made out to be all-powerful. And yes, I did realize that there was some cut material (in fact, I read the "cuts" in another thread). Too bad the cut material didn't make it into the article. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Jul 2007 02:18:03 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 04:10:45
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| Plus, if Manshoon really had the chance to shine as a BBEG the way he should, I doubt anyone would look bad for ending up his . . . well, you know. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 05:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I believe you, I just got the impression from the article that they were unlucky in general, not just unlucky in love. The skeptical side of me thinks, just how resourceful can they be if they both spent years being wrapped around Manshoon's finger? I was shocked at how many years Semmemon spent trying to slip away from his former master. For a long time, he was basically Manshoon's "bitch".
Manshoon is a very, very formidable and dominating individual - someone who has never properly received his due in the Realms IMHO. He and Sememmon got along just fine - with no element of anyone being wrapped around the other's finger - until Sememmon fell in love. Women will do that to you!  
Sememmon got his reputation due to his lack of fear and recklessness in battle. What the article didn't include was the fact that teh 'current' Sememmon is the 6th clone of that person created by Manshoon. Sememmon was prepared to get himself killed or have his body shattered if it meant that a Zhent foe or rival was taken down in the process. As such, people soon became wary of facing him in battle knowing that it was likely to be an "all or nothing" proposition. That's how you get a reputation in the Realms.
This policy of his youth (for by the time he took control of Darkhold he was known for his battle-fury) gave way to more sophisticated tactics after 1312 DR and he then honed his manipulative and intimidatory skills. Raw displays of power weren't needed very often after that.
Of course, Sememmon modelled himself on Manshoon - who has exhibited similar behaviours - and knew that Manshoon supported him in his role of Zhentarim "wildspell" to allow him to build a reputation.
And as for the 'how resourceful can they be' question? I think you underestimate the magnitude of their challenge in breaking away from Manshoon and the Zhents.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 16:58:54
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George, here's a completely wild tangent for you.
Do you think that Sememmon and/or Ashemmi had any dealings with the the halflings of Corm Orp? Did your research on Sememmon and Ashemmi turn up any ties to any group of halflings in the Realms? (I have a halfling wizard PC in my campaign, and despite his rather high level at this point, he is still underestimated on a daily basis, and he does not make a "big deal" about it, lacking the arrogance most powerful wizards have...) |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 12:36:51
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Man, that is a wild tangent!
I'm sure as the master and master's consort of Darkhold, that Sememmon and Ashemmi had quite a few dealings with Corm Orp - but probably not in any nice ways. They would have had charmed spies, picked off a few as slaves to be traded with the drow of Sshamath (little folk fit into hard to get places ...) and likely tried to subvert more than a few - Harper ranks have a preponderance of halflings (see the list of agents and contacts in FOR4 Code of the Harpers).
As for contact with your halfling wizard PC, I'm thinking that there wouldn't be any direct confrontation or conflict. He would however make a great target for Zhent magelings seeking to "make their bones" (Mafia style).
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 15:10:47
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PDK,
Just wanted to mention, since you mentioned Corm Orp, that my last laborers article is based around Corm Orp and Ed helped me sneak some lore into said article. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 20:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
[quote]
Sememmon got his reputation due to his lack of fear and recklessness in battle. What the article didn't include was the fact that teh 'current' Sememmon is the 6th clone of that person created by Manshoon. Sememmon was prepared to get himself killed or have his body shattered if it meant that a Zhent foe or rival was taken down in the process. As such, people soon became wary of facing him in battle knowing that it was likely to be an "all or nothing" proposition. That's how you get a reputation in the Realms.
So basically he scared the crap out of everyone? As in: "Challenge Sememmon? Do you have a deathwish?".
Mod edit: Let's keep the language PG, folks, in deference to our younger scribes, their parents, and those who are bugged by profanity (which is disallowed, per the CoC). |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Jul 2007 21:47:27 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 01:24:01
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
And as for the 'how resourceful can they be' question? I think you underestimate the magnitude of their challenge in breaking away from Manshoon and the Zhents.
Possibly. But hey, like I said I have a skeptical side.
Nevertheless, I've enjoyed all this new information, and I certainly like Semmemon as a character. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 15:34:35
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| Talking about the new Semmemmon -- am I the only one who thinks he'll (eventually) make a good replacement for the Blackstaff? |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2007 : 21:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Talking about the new Semmemmon -- am I the only one who thinks he'll (eventually) make a good replacement for the Blackstaff?
Actually, as of the minute I read this post - if you were the only one, you're not anymore .
The idea has huge possibilities - I have always thought of Khelben as being the most ruthless of the good guys. If Sememmon is working his way away from his evil ways, he may make a nice partner-in-crime (so to speak) for Tsarra. The two of them having their own particular views on handling the Blackstaff's legacy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2007 : 01:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Talking about the new Semmemmon -- am I the only one who thinks he'll (eventually) make a good replacement for the Blackstaff?
Maybe. Now that I think of it, Semmemmon and Khelben seem to share some similarities. Of course, it begs the question of whether Semmemmon wants to be like the Blackstaff. Just because two people are similar in personality and even method doesn't mean they want the same things in life. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Jul 2007 01:36:53 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2010 : 19:53:51
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| Well, if Sememmon was like Khelben, then Ashemmi would have to be like Laeral... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 02:28:31
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At the end of "Blackstaff" I recall reading that Ashemmi's mind had been messed with or damaged by Manshoon's dark magic, or something to that effect.
I imagine that Sememmon's love for Ashemmi was stronger than his loyalty to Manshoon. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2010 : 06:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Auzoros
At the end of "Blackstaff" I recall reading that Ashemmi's mind had been messed with or damaged by Manshoon's dark magic, or something to that effect.
She got hit with a helm of opposite alignment, one of the cutest cursed items ever to roll out of 1E and 2E books . |
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2010 : 02:50:24
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| I just read the article...nice work George! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 06:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Auzoros
I just read the article...nice work George!
Thanks.
It was my last Dragon magazine article. But for the change to 4E and the removal of Dragon from Paizo, I'm confident it wouldn't have been my last.
Anyway, I just want to set something straight which is the simple fact that in terms of core values/ethics, the Blackstaff and Semmemmon are not that similar. In old-style terms, Khelben was best described as Lawful Neutral (Good) while Semmemmon is now more Lawful Neutral (Evil) - in other words, while their attitude to some things was similar (they are both very much "end justifies the means"-type people), when it came right down to it, Khelben wouldn't raze the village to kill his enemy but Semmemmon would. The Blackstaff won't cross that line but is very happy to walk parallel to it for long periods of time. Semmemmon will step over anytime he feels he has to.
But they are similar in terms of being a slave to love, obsessed with their partners and absolutely rutheless and brutal in redressing wrongs perpetrated against them or those they care about. They are both "hardcore" but Semmemmon retains that nasty streak that was never a feature of Khelben's make-up.
Glad you enjoyed the article and hope that it gave you some impetus/inspiration for your FR work/campaign/general musings.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2014 : 20:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Auzoros
I just read the article...nice work George!
Thanks.
But they are similar in terms of being a slave to love, obsessed with their partners and absolutely rutheless and brutal in redressing wrongs perpetrated against them or those they care about. They are both "hardcore" but Semmemmon retains that nasty streak that was never a feature of Khelben's make-up.
-- George Krashos
This should make any want-be hero or villain think about just who's toes they are about to go stepping on. |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Fendrikor
Learned Scribe
Australia
189 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 09:00:23
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So where are Sememmon and Ashemmi now in 1490?
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup' |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 09:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Fendrikor
So where are Sememmon and Ashemmi now in 1490?
Ask WotC.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 15:15:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Fendrikor
So where are Sememmon and Ashemmi now in 1490?
In the same limbo as every other plotline from that era.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 16:31:25
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I really didn't like the whole Ashemi is really a good girl thing, so I just ignore that Dragon Mag article and have them holed up in Darkhold. Plus, as part of the article, Fzoul is a cloned Fzoul that's magically bound to Manshoon somehow AND Ashemi is magically scrambled as well. I don't see Manshoon saying - ooh - you're a good guy? come here and let me fuddle with your mind so I can put you in one of the highest positions of power under me and pretend nothing happened. BAD story line in my mind.
It also didn't make much sense for the Peregost to take over when they left - too many magically powerful people would want the role (including all the Zhentarim who were on Fzoul's shit list and ran West).
In my present realms, the most powerful Manshoon clone is in extradimensional hiding, controlling the western Zhents through Sememmon as always, but with 5 or 6 other high ranking Zhent wizards there as well. They covertly work at reclaiming Zhentil Keep and the Citadel until the Shadovar come in and kill everyone, at which point they fill the vacuum of power. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 22:04:27
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In my realms Semmemnon is still keeping Darkhold with Cyricists support using zhentish merchant interests in the West as leverage to avoid direct confrontation. Ashemi still with him as before.
Only known Manshoon is hiding behind Fzoul in Citadel working on his experiments. There is also Faceless in Westgate but this is not known to almost anybody. Slighty possible there might be one more who asked Larloch for asyl and he kept him for fun (probably made him a lich just to keep the standard). But that is just me and 1490DR is far future... |
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Clegane
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2016 : 02:56:55
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| Would a reformed/restored Ashemmi wanted to establish a relationship with her daughter Cara Doon? |
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Question on Sememmon and Ashemmi
