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Arianthus Deszault
Acolyte
15 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 22:40:22
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Hello everyone!
First scroll of my own, yet I've been a long time lurker!
I am running a campaign within the 4E Realms right now. I have run into a possible bump though.
My players have already been introduced to their main foe, Shar and Netheril. However, they have also run into a drow that appears to be working with a Sharran priestess.
I would like to involve more than a single female drow though, but I am having trouble with finding a good God/Goddess that is (canonically) still around and is willing to work with Shar. My first inclination was to use Vhaeraun, but he is no longer around. I wanted to avoid Lolth, but after looking at the rest of the Dark Seldarine, I can't find a good match.
Does Lolth share a good relationship with Shar? I can't seem to find any information detailing interactions, if any exist, between the two. Is there a possible God/Goddess I am overlooking that would fit into this situation?
Thanks in advance!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 22:50:56
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At one time, there was some speculation that Shar and Lolth were one and the same.
IIRC, there is even a heresy to that effect.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 23:08:36
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In my last Forgotten Realms game, when Lolth decided to "remake" herself, she was subsumed by Shar. Lolth was trying to change herself to increase her power by taking on the Shadow Weave...she wanted the Drow to use this magic; but wanted it to be part of her.
Shar won the showdown...though none in the Realms (including the players) knew it had happened when the game ended. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 23:12:01
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Excellent - that is how it should be. Mortals (even RPG players!) should NEVER know the truth of things on a cosmic scale - the divine is an enigma.
For all we know, ALL the gods are finger-puppets on the hands of some uber-deity. How does that saying go? God is an Iron... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 23:16:39
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...Golem?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 00:17:22
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Oh, there is a relationship between the two... And it is very, very naughty. I mean evil!
Evil!
Yeah, that's what it is... |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 21:20:59
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Lolth left her webcam on one night... amazing what two goddesses can do when one of them has eight arms.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 23:02:37
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I'm of the idea that Shar and Lolth would have a hard time working together if they are different entities...but that doesn't mean their agents would have such a hard time doing so.
I'd say that they could do so easily enough...especially if both sides thought they were using the other side. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 00:42:33
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If Lolth and Shar both had something to gain, and risked nothing in return, I don't see why two evil entities couldn't work together. If two 'good guys' can fight (and it happens all the time), why can't 'bad guys' be chums?
Heck, we know that Larloch has tea with Szass tam... well maybe not tea... perhaps the souls of innocents... but you get the idea.
Better yet... Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal. If that trio can work together long-enough not to kill each other (and they did), anyone can.
And if Lolth can get all her Drow to use the Shadow Weave, that could be a win-win for both of them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Aug 2010 00:43:55 |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 01:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And if Lolth can get all her Drow to use the Shadow Weave, that could be a win-win for both of them.
Not necessarily, because then Shar would have the advantage of supplying the drow with potent magic and the power to deny it for them. Do I think correctly that once you go "Shadow Weave" you are at Shar's mercy (in the sphere of magic at least)? |
Away with powergaming propaganda! | I <3 Powergaming!
Don't feed the trolls. Especially the clever ones. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2010 : 01:17:37
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All ventures have risk. If one is set that aside, both could have something to gain and could bargain for it. Neither would submit to the other as both are major deities. The deal as such likely would be one of sharing some power.
Shar having more users of the Shadow Weave might be able to ascend in levels enough to try to take on AO.
Lolth, while giving up exclusive worship by Drow, with use of Shadow Weave could also rise in ranks to be able to take on AO.
I do not seeing either deity placing much trust that whatever deal made would be fully followed, and after AO was taken out (If that is goal, it could certainly have been a lessor goal like maybe taking out Corellon [which after all is deity of Elven magic] or other short term plan) each would start planning on how to take the other out. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Balduran Lavidah
Seeker
France
83 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 17:32:36
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Shar ne serait pas une déesse,mais un dieu ?
ça c'est gênant :x . Va falloir que je modifie certaines choses de mon côté. Profitons du débat : Shar est-il bien le protecteur des créatures de l'ombre ou bien un dieu avec une autre fonction ?
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Shar is not a goddess, but a god ?
This is annoying :x. I'll have to change some things on my side. Let's use the debate : Shar well is the protector of the creatures of the shade or a god with a different function ? |
"Le savoir s'apprend. La curiosité forme le savoir." |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 17:51:22
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I don't get it. AFAIK Shar is still a 'she', thus a goddess.
And there was a heresy in FR saying she and Lloth are the same... don't remember the name.
Wait. I think I read somewhere they're sisters too... Anyone confirm it? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 05:37:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If Lolth and Shar both had something to gain, and risked nothing in return, I don't see why two evil entities couldn't work together. If two 'good guys' can fight (and it happens all the time), why can't 'bad guys' be chums?
Heck, we know that Larloch has tea with Szass tam... well maybe not tea... perhaps the souls of innocents... but you get the idea.
Agreed. To add one more example: the evil and selfish zulkirs (and there 6 of them!) DID work together to oppose Tam. In the Realms, nearly anything is possible, and alliance between evil deities is not an exception. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Balduran Lavidah
Seeker
France
83 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 12:34:06
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Bon alors IL ou ELLE pour Shar ? J'ai besoin d'une confirmation pour ma part ! ^^ Car en lisant en haut, j'ai du IL en description XD
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Well then he or she to Shar ? I need a confirmation for me ! ^ ^ For reading above, I described in the HE XD |
"Le savoir s'apprend. La curiosité forme le savoir." |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 14:14:33
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| Shar = she/elle |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 14:53:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Balduran Lavidah
Bon alors IL ou ELLE pour Shar ? J'ai besoin d'une confirmation pour ma part ! ^^ Car en lisant en haut, j'ai du IL en description XD
Dude can you please stop writing your posts in french? |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 15:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Balduran Lavidah
Bon alors IL ou ELLE pour Shar ? J'ai besoin d'une confirmation pour ma part ! ^^ Car en lisant en haut, j'ai du IL en description XD
Dude can you please stop writing your posts in french?
Their in English right below the French version. |
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Balduran Lavidah
Seeker
France
83 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 15:14:27
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Je conserve les 2 versions, car la traduction peut laisser à désirer. Tout ceci afin d'aider à la compréhension (désoler de devoir recourir toujours à cette méthode :c )
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I keep two versions because the translation may be poor . All this to help understanding ( sorry to always use this method :c )
Thank you for the confirmation Kajehase |
"Le savoir s'apprend. La curiosité forme le savoir." |
Edited by - Balduran Lavidah on 17 Aug 2010 15:16:14 |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 15:52:12
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quote:
Their in English right below the French version.
Yes I know but I don't care ;)
Should everyone start posting in his own language now? That would create a huge mess. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 16:05:41
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| Allow me to disagree, as long as there is an English translation with each post, a foreign Realm-fan should be allowed to post his ideas/opinions. In fact, I think it is great that language is not such a barrier for scribes to share their ideas. In the end, I guess it is up to the moderators to decide. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 16:06:41
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| i 'think' the problem is that he have that hard time explaining himself in english that he writes it in French (native i guess) and babelfish it (or using google translate or something) ... both ways ... which while in teory is good, fails hard on that translation tools stink and is prone to severe mistranslation |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
Edited by - Sian on 17 Aug 2010 16:08:33 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 16:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Their in English right below the French version.
Yes I know but I don't care ;)
Should everyone start posting in his own language now? That would create a huge mess.
I think its better that someone post that way than not being able to post at all because of language ability. The translation tool might not be perfect, but its better than nothing. If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 17:44:01
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There is no real news in the sourcebooks about any sort of relation between Lolth and Shar. There was some sort of short-lived cult devoted to both goddesses, not supported by either though.
Drow may be inclined to follow a goddess of darkness or use the Shadow Weave (who actually dissappeared with 4E along with the other Weave). Neither means that Lolth or Shar deal with one another, or, in the latter case, the drow with Shar. After all, especially recently, Shar has been portrayed as a deity of loss and nihilism, something that does not go along well with a long lived, power-hungry race. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 18:31:08
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quote:
If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it.
Es gibt hier nur leider keine ignorieren Funktion damit Posts von Benutzern ausgeblendet werden, also muss ich es lesen wenn ich einen Thread lese ;)
Unfortunatly there is no ignore function here so I'll have to read it when I read a thread... |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 18:53:09
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Ed Greenwood has commented on cults, usually by dead gods or corrupted cults to other gods, who are secretly supported by another deity. this is a prelude before taking the worshipers as their own, to cause mayhem, or to blacken a gods name.
It is possible Shar is creating a version of the cult of Lolth to convince the drow to worshiper her. Which might explain the love of shadow magics.
Also there are the Heresies aspect of the game introduced in 3.5's Power of Faerun, which could include Shar is Lolth/Lolth is Shar cult. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 18:56:34
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it.
Es gibt hier nur leider keine ignorieren Funktion damit Posts von Benutzern ausgeblendet werden, also muss ich es lesen wenn ich einen Thread lese ;)
Unfortunatly there is no ignore function here so I'll have to read it when I read a thread...
Actually this would be great, years and years of German in school and the teacher almost cried. Now I can practise and read about the Realms all at once. I wont try to answer you though, as you would roll around laughing hysterically. |
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Topic |
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Relationship between Shar and Lolth?
