| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Arianthus Deszault |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 22:40:22
Hello everyone!
First scroll of my own, yet I've been a long time lurker!
I am running a campaign within the 4E Realms right now. I have run into a possible bump though.
My players have already been introduced to their main foe, Shar and Netheril. However, they have also run into a drow that appears to be working with a Sharran priestess.
I would like to involve more than a single female drow though, but I am having trouble with finding a good God/Goddess that is (canonically) still around and is willing to work with Shar. My first inclination was to use Vhaeraun, but he is no longer around. I wanted to avoid Lolth, but after looking at the rest of the Dark Seldarine, I can't find a good match.
Does Lolth share a good relationship with Shar? I can't seem to find any information detailing interactions, if any exist, between the two. Is there a possible God/Goddess I am overlooking that would fit into this situation?
Thanks in advance! |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Balduran Lavidah |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 17:48:57
Après une petite recherche poussée, Shar n'est pas une déesse maléfique en elle même. Elle représente la nuit, les ténèbres, les secrets. C'est la déesse protectrice des créatures de l'ombre. En opposition à Lloth, elle est ni cruelle ni destructrice. Mais reste sournoise.
On peut donc s'allier plus facilement à Shar que Lloth. Donc, honnêtement, je verrai assez mal voir les deux déesses travaillée pour une même cause.
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After a little research thrust , Shar is not a goddess evil in itself . It is the night , darkness , the secrets . It is the patron goddess of the creatures of darkness. In opposition to Lolth , it is neither cruel nor destructive . But still sneaky.
It can therefore more easily Shar ally that Lolth . So , honestly, I see quite unpopular with the two goddesses worked for the same cause . |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 17:33:05
Well, as pointed out earlier, the gods themselves don't have to, if their followers are. I see no reason why the two groups can't (either knowingly or un) work together for some purpose that benefits both. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 09:54:18
I still doubt that there are many gods who work along with Mrs. Nihilist, as she is portrayed in 4e. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 00:29:40
Okay, so it wasn't exactly the way I remembered it, but we do now have a precedent of Shar and Lolth working to achieve the same goals (although not necessarily together).
If Lolth can work with such dullards as Malar and Gruumsh, I can't see why she wouldn't work with Shar, except, perhaps, because Shar may be considered the only power she could possibly feel threatened by.
Shar, on the other hand, will work with anyone who will further her goals - she has in the past.
As for getting rid of useful gods, while at the same time adding yet another serpent god (Zehir) into an already muddled mix... who knows. The motives of (gaming) deities are beyond the ken of mortal men.  |
| Zanan |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 20:12:36
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Ibrandul would be a fine choice indeed, but he was essentially wiped off the FR deity-scape with the Time of Troubles and the further it went on, the more nihilist Shar became. Hence my No-no above.
Ahhhhh.... but wasn't it Shar who killed him? And then assumed his portfolio and followers?
So Shar could, conceivably, be working through her newly-acquired Ibrandul aspect with Lolth and the drow (although I think Lolth would know who she was really dealing with, which could be interesting if she could hide her knowledge from Shar/Ibrandul somehow).
Almost. Demihuman Deities actually says that Lolth took over the drow and half-drow followers of Ibrandul, while Shar actually revealed herself to those she took over from the non-drow. It's all out there.
BTW, Ibrandul is one of these deities where you shake your head and wonder why exactly they fell victim to the chopping axe, while there are so many dolts still out there. Same goes, BTW, for Leira. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 17:42:12
Back on topic... these are some fascinating ideas... in my Realms, Ibrandul and other lesser deities "absorbed" by Shar regain their independent existence as a result of the collapse of the Shadow Weave in the failed attempt on Mystra's life... they weren't dead, but the Shadow Weave was binding them to Shar's will. At least, that's how I'm spinning it. More gods = better. 
(Oh, and Leira wasn't slain by Mask... it's not unheard of for lovers to fake the death of one or both to be together...) |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 17:33:34
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
*Jaw drops* Oh, you naughty boys! Spying on goddesses... Shameful. I take it you've watched Eilistraee and Sharess having a bonfire dance, too, eh? ;)
 Guilty as charged... except that Sune was there too... |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 17:20:48
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Ibrandul would be a fine choice indeed, but he was essentially wiped off the FR deity-scape with the Time of Troubles and the further it went on, the more nihilist Shar became. Hence my No-no above.
Ahhhhh.... but wasn't it Shar who killed him? And then assumed his portfolio and followers?
So Shar could, conceivably, be working through her newly-acquired Ibrandul aspect with Lolth and the drow (although I think Lolth would know who she was really dealing with, which could be interesting if she could hide her knowledge from Shar/Ibrandul somehow).quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I think its better that someone post that way than not being able to post at all because of language ability. The translation tool might not be perfect, but its better than nothing. If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it.
Agreed; this is a forum for ALL Realms fans, and everyone should have an equal opportunity to participate.
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| Arianthus Deszault |
Posted - 20 Aug 2010 : 22:38:00
Wow, thank you for all of the responses!
Some members of my group are very research-intensive, so I like to keep things somewhat in line with canon. Else I would just go wildly out of my way to use an appropriate deity.
I like the idea of using Ibrandul. I will go the route of "Shar has an aspect of herself that imitates Ibrandul. Drow that worship Ibrandul don't realize this and are empowering Shar even more."
Thank you again! |
| Zireael |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 08:18:11
Rhyxali or Grazz't would be nice indeed. Or Wendonai 
|
| Zanan |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 22:30:48
quote:
Drow in the Realms have embraced offshoots of the major faiths, usually following a charismatic mortal leader who claims to be something more. The only such cult known to be still active, albeit in a debased form, is the She-Spider Cult, a Thayan-based sect that tried to link worship of Shar with devotion to Lolth. Opposed in the end by both goddesses, the Cult enjoyed initial success as a secret society operating slaving and drugrunning operations in Mulhorand, Unther, and southern Thay. They eventually degenerated into a criminal gang without divine support. The Cult still stages fake rituals to thrill worshipers and to slay foes under the guise of sacrifices.
(Demihuman Deities, Lolth, Affiliated Orders)
Ibrandul would be a fine choice indeed, but he was essentially wiped off the FR deity-scape with the Time of Troubles and the further it went on, the more nihilist Shar became. Hence my No-no above.
If it was me, I'd rather link drow with some devil or demon lord worship, such as Dispater, Glasya, Belial, Malcanthet, Shaktari, or (and especially) Rhyxali (i.e. Grazz't's sister) |
| Zireael |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 09:43:56
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. And in the post reaffirmation of Lolth, it seems even more unlikely that a deity like Shar would enjoy much purchase among the general drow community. Even if Shar wished it, I doubt she'd find it all that easy to nurture. Not that you wouldn't find small pockets of secretive Shar worship here and there throughout the Underdark, and away from the worshippers of the core drow gods.
Yeah, like the Sisters of the Shadow Weave, based in Ched Nasad.
BTW Zanan, can you remind us the name of this cult? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 01:35:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think "Ibrandul" is a better deity for the drow than Shar. I don't see that her loss aspect would appeal to the drow, but a god of where they live could have some small appeal. Not a lot, but some -- particularly to those who have issues with Lolth, like males or commoners.
Indeed. And in the post reaffirmation of Lolth, it seems even more unlikely that a deity like Shar would enjoy much purchase among the general drow community. Even if Shar wished it, I doubt she'd find it all that easy to nurture. Not that you wouldn't find small pockets of secretive Shar worship here and there throughout the Underdark, and away from the worshippers of the core drow gods.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Aug 2010 : 00:39:10
I think "Ibrandul" is a better deity for the drow than Shar. I don't see that her loss aspect would appeal to the drow, but a god of where they live could have some small appeal. Not a lot, but some -- particularly to those who have issues with Lolth, like males or commoners. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 21:49:18
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
What "loss" aspect? They "lost" a tiny bit 13k years ago, they don't fret about it these days.
BTW, if people look for that cult, don't look much farther than Demihuman Deities, Lolth's entry.
The Lady of Loss...Shar, uses Loss for many things: vengeance for losing a place within city rankings for a house, losing to a competitor in academy or training, losing in battle against a neighboring underdark city, etc. and etc.
Shar, after subsuming Ibrandul, is also the Goddess of the Underdark. She could exert that claim to lay her claim upon all things relating to the Underdark. Drow might turn to her for survival, finding treasure, etc...
I wasn't thinking of the Descent...to me, that is something that benefited the Drow. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 20:48:06
Ah! I knew I'd seen it somewhere before! And exactly what did they loose? They certainly don't seem to think they lost anything. Except maybe for the ones who were/are still good. They might feel some loss, but I don't think they would ever follow Shar. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 20:44:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
There is no real news in the sourcebooks about any sort of relation between Lolth and Shar. There was some sort of short-lived cult devoted to both goddesses, not supported by either though.
Drow may be inclined to follow a goddess of darkness or use the Shadow Weave (who actually dissappeared with 4E along with the other Weave). Neither means that Lolth or Shar deal with one another, or, in the latter case, the drow with Shar. After all, especially recently, Shar has been portrayed as a deity of loss and nihilism, something that does not go along well with a long lived, power-hungry race.
I would only say that the Drow would be a perfect fit with the "loss" aspect...as well as Shar being the Goddess of the Underdark.
What "loss" aspect? They "lost" a tiny bit 13k years ago, they don't fret about it these days.
BTW, if people look for that cult, don't look much farther than Demihuman Deities, Lolth's entry. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 19:22:59
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
There is no real news in the sourcebooks about any sort of relation between Lolth and Shar. There was some sort of short-lived cult devoted to both goddesses, not supported by either though.
Drow may be inclined to follow a goddess of darkness or use the Shadow Weave (who actually dissappeared with 4E along with the other Weave). Neither means that Lolth or Shar deal with one another, or, in the latter case, the drow with Shar. After all, especially recently, Shar has been portrayed as a deity of loss and nihilism, something that does not go along well with a long lived, power-hungry race.
I would only say that the Drow would be a perfect fit with the "loss" aspect...as well as Shar being the Goddess of the Underdark. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 19:20:20
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it.
Es gibt hier nur leider keine ignorieren Funktion damit Posts von Benutzern ausgeblendet werden, also muss ich es lesen wenn ich einen Thread lese ;)
Unfortunatly there is no ignore function here so I'll have to read it when I read a thread...
Actually this would be great, years and years of German in school and the teacher almost cried. Now I can practise and read about the Realms all at once. I wont try to answer you though, as you would roll around laughing hysterically.
Personally I see no problem with Balduran Lavidah or anyone else whose English is not good enough to be used without a translator of some sort. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 18:56:34
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it.
Es gibt hier nur leider keine ignorieren Funktion damit Posts von Benutzern ausgeblendet werden, also muss ich es lesen wenn ich einen Thread lese ;)
Unfortunatly there is no ignore function here so I'll have to read it when I read a thread...
Actually this would be great, years and years of German in school and the teacher almost cried. Now I can practise and read about the Realms all at once. I wont try to answer you though, as you would roll around laughing hysterically. |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 18:53:09
Ed Greenwood has commented on cults, usually by dead gods or corrupted cults to other gods, who are secretly supported by another deity. this is a prelude before taking the worshipers as their own, to cause mayhem, or to blacken a gods name.
It is possible Shar is creating a version of the cult of Lolth to convince the drow to worshiper her. Which might explain the love of shadow magics.
Also there are the Heresies aspect of the game introduced in 3.5's Power of Faerun, which could include Shar is Lolth/Lolth is Shar cult. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 18:31:08
quote:
If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it.
Es gibt hier nur leider keine ignorieren Funktion damit Posts von Benutzern ausgeblendet werden, also muss ich es lesen wenn ich einen Thread lese ;)
Unfortunatly there is no ignore function here so I'll have to read it when I read a thread... |
| Zanan |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 17:44:01
There is no real news in the sourcebooks about any sort of relation between Lolth and Shar. There was some sort of short-lived cult devoted to both goddesses, not supported by either though.
Drow may be inclined to follow a goddess of darkness or use the Shadow Weave (who actually dissappeared with 4E along with the other Weave). Neither means that Lolth or Shar deal with one another, or, in the latter case, the drow with Shar. After all, especially recently, Shar has been portrayed as a deity of loss and nihilism, something that does not go along well with a long lived, power-hungry race. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 16:35:46
Agreed. Besides, it's a great way to learn a bit of the language!! (I'm something of an amatuer lingustics person, myself. I like to try to translate it myself before looking at the actual translation. It's a good way to learn.) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 16:17:11
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Their in English right below the French version.
Yes I know but I don't care ;)
Should everyone start posting in his own language now? That would create a huge mess.
I think its better that someone post that way than not being able to post at all because of language ability. The translation tool might not be perfect, but its better than nothing. If the French part bothers you that much then just don't read it. |
| Sian |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 16:06:41
i 'think' the problem is that he have that hard time explaining himself in english that he writes it in French (native i guess) and babelfish it (or using google translate or something) ... both ways ... which while in teory is good, fails hard on that translation tools stink and is prone to severe mistranslation |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 16:05:41
Allow me to disagree, as long as there is an English translation with each post, a foreign Realm-fan should be allowed to post his ideas/opinions. In fact, I think it is great that language is not such a barrier for scribes to share their ideas. In the end, I guess it is up to the moderators to decide. |
| _Jarlaxle_ |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 15:52:12
quote:
Their in English right below the French version.
Yes I know but I don't care ;)
Should everyone start posting in his own language now? That would create a huge mess. |
| Balduran Lavidah |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 15:14:27
Je conserve les 2 versions, car la traduction peut laisser à désirer. Tout ceci afin d'aider à la compréhension (désoler de devoir recourir toujours à cette méthode :c )
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I keep two versions because the translation may be poor . All this to help understanding ( sorry to always use this method :c )
Thank you for the confirmation Kajehase |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 15:00:32
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Balduran Lavidah
Bon alors IL ou ELLE pour Shar ? J'ai besoin d'une confirmation pour ma part ! ^^ Car en lisant en haut, j'ai du IL en description XD
Dude can you please stop writing your posts in french?
Their in English right below the French version. |
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