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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 16:48:47
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I have a lore conundrum....if when the High Magi who created the mythal over the Elven Court at the end of the Weeping War excluded all but elves from entering the city....how is it that drow then managed to occupy it later before and during the Crusade????? It was a high magic mythal and should have been well beyond the drow at that time to crack....I'm confused....any ideas anyone?????
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 17:34:28
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Yep. Drow are elves. Just the racial term for their subspecies.
Like Sun Elves. Wood Elves. Wild Elves. Drow is just elven for Dark Brother or something... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 17:42:45
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Drow is just elven for Dark Brother or something...
Heh, wrong setting. Though I have always liked how Feist did his dark elves. I recall, the first time I read it, being blown away by the moredhel Morandis and his Return to Elvandar.  |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:07:58
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Oh duh. It's shorthand for Dhaeraow, meaning traitor...
I did like Feist. Loved the Tsurani of using their sheer numbers to willingly die to make a ramp of bodies to go over castle walls for their other soldiers. Shocked the heroes too. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:18:11
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| What setting are you two talking about? And is it gaming or fiction? I'm always looking for new stuff to read... |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:40:42
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Riftwar. It's a book series by Raymond E. Feist. There was a video game on it called Return To Krondor.
Pretty decent books. Very high fantasy. VERY high fantasy. With different planes even, with people coming in it to take over another world.
Love their magic system. Two types of magic. Low Magic which is in the main world, and the world of the Tsurani has High Magic of UBER POWER!!!
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:42:26
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Start with Magician Apptrence, then Magician: Master. Both the first in the series.
The dragon Knight. A real Dragon Knight. Man the elves were SCARED of him, even though he was thought to be human.
So much awesomeness.
The first few books are in comic form much like the Drittz books. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
735 Posts |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
735 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 18:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Oh duh. It's shorthand for Dhaeraow, meaning traitor...
I've never thought of it like that. Thanks dracons!  |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 20:18:53
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| I've heard of the Riftwar books, but never read them, or anything else by Feist. I think I'm going to have to rectify that. Thanks for the details. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 20:31:13
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Embarrassingly, I haven't read him either; magic of that caliber usually doesn't interest me. I'll have to check them out.
I should probably hang my head in shame, being the avid reader I am, but I have never touched a Pratchett novel either. 
And of all the creatures to point out, why Drow? There are tons of monsters in those ruins that really shouldn't be there.
Then again, the Mythal was 'twisted' - gotta love how one, simple word allows you to break all the rules. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 03:56:51
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The thing I was mentioning about Feist's dark elves... When we first experience his worlds, there are mainly two types of elves discussed: elves and moredhel. The latter are also known as the Brotherhood of the Dark Path, or sometimes just Dark Brothers. The main physical difference between the two is that elves tend to have lighter hair, and moredhel tend to have darker hair. And physically, that's about it. There is something of an aura about both races, though -- an elf and a moredhel will know on sight that the other one is the other type.
The cultural differences between the two stretch back thousands of years. Both were enslaved by these godlike beings, the Valheru. When the Valheru disappeared, the elves were the ones who said "Cool, they're gone, let's go do our own thing." The moredhel decided to try to claim the power once held by their masters, and were kinda warped by this.
But as we later find out, a moredhel can throw off the lure of the Dark Path and Return to Elvandar, the elven homeland. The Spellweavers enact a brief ritual, and then the former moredhel is now an elf. He's physically the same, but he no longer has that moredhel aura.
There's a lot more to it, but that's a brief rundown. I always thought that was more interesting than the Krynnish dark elves (outcast regular elves) or the drow of most D&D worlds. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Jul 2010 03:57:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 04:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a lot more to it, but that's a brief rundown. I always thought that was more interesting than the Krynnish dark elves (outcast regular elves) or the drow of most D&D worlds.
It's not as simple as just being branded an "outcast." There's a long and drawn out process involved when an Krynnish elf is declared a "dark elf" -- that impacts upon not only the elf in question, but the community he/she came from as well. The 3e DL rule-books offered some rather in-depth treatment of this aspect, actually.
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 06:52:24
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you missed the point.......Drow were excluded too.......so how could they later occupy the city...?????? touche.....
I mean the Elven Court Mythal.......
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Edited by - Snowblood on 12 Jul 2010 09:24:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 08:48:43
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AS I SAID, the Mythal was twisted - else how do you think Demons and Devils (playing nicely together LOL) got in?
In fact, if you read Elminster in Myth Drannor, you will witness the raising of the Mythal, and see some of that 'ugliness' that managed to creep-in right at the beginning. Each person involved in it's raising (and there were more humans then El) contributed a part of themselves, including some of his/her prejudices, which was why the Mythal was flawed and behaved erratically, even before the demonic presence twisted it. Those were the cracks that later enemies used to break it down. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 18:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Start with Magician Apptrence, then Magician: Master. Both the first in the series.
The dragon Knight. A real Dragon Knight. Man the elves were SCARED of him, even though he was thought to be human.
So much awesomeness.
The first few books are in comic form much like the Drittz books.
The copy that I borrowed from my local library 15 years ago was just Magician, before it was split into two novels. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 00:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Start with Magician Apptrence, then Magician: Master. Both the first in the series.
The dragon Knight. A real Dragon Knight. Man the elves were SCARED of him, even though he was thought to be human.
So much awesomeness.
The first few books are in comic form much like the Drittz books.
The copy that I borrowed from my local library 15 years ago was just Magician, before it was split into two novels.
The hard cover was Magician. It was split for the paperbacks. I first read the books around 1988, and I found Magician: Master long before I found Magician: Apprentice! Later they went back and did the Author's Preferred Edition of the hardcover, and still later did the same for the paperbacks. |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 03:48:06
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| sigh....I just love it when a scroll meanders off track & doesn't address the core discussion.....sigh...... |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 03:58:04
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“removing all taints of the drow and other fell creatures from the site,..the High Mages immediately (within the same tenday) began to weave a mythal about Elven Court... 13 High Mages that gave their lives for this new elven capital... a brand-new mythal of extraordinary strength and power, its boundaries set as a pyramid defining the city site and reflecting and enhancing the star- and moonlight... While Elven Court would not be anathema to non-elves, it was not to be a place for them to live or leave their influences”
FOD pp 36.....this is the mythal that I am talking about......... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 04:35:18
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Okay, didn't realize you meant the Elven Court - I never understood the redundancy of the two cities. Then again, I never understood the redundancy of having two Elves - one is one too many in my book.
The Elven Court was also an Arcane Mythal, like that in Myth Drannor? That might explain it - the Arcane magic version wasn't as good as the original, Elven High-Magic version.
And please don't ask me to explain the difference, because I never understood that either - Elves confuse the crap out me. Probably why Cormanthyr is still the only FR source I've never read (only bits of it that I was directed to while debating certain lore points).
In 4e, it is probably better explained by saying High Magic taps into the Fey power source - at least now we have a difference I can grasp.
Anyway, I'd say in reality it was because someone made a snafu, but in-game I would say they were wearing specially constructed Piwafwi (with shadow-magic?) that rendered them 'invisible' to the Mythal.
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 08:43:19 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 08:40:58
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Elven high magic is pretty easy to understand.
Arcane Magic: Levels 1-9.
Elven High Magic: Epic Spells. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 08:51:23
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In game mechanics, yes, but in-story, that doesn't really pan-out. 'High magic' was supposedly different - It had some sort of connection to the Eleven Gods (similar to how the magic of the Old Empires was, before it was retconed). It is a mixture of divine and arcane magic.
So yeah, the Epic Spell system works in-game, but then non-Elves cast exactly the same spells if they are high enough level, which completely negates the fact that it is Elven High magic. If everyone can do it, then what is the difference?
The problem comes from the fact that they can't let Players anywhere near 'real' Elven High Magic - making Mythals, changing the nature of a comet, cuasing tidal Waves, and, OH YEAH... Sundering the Planet.
PCs would have a field-day with those abilities.  |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 10:39:35
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| Fall of Myth Drannor....shorthand....sorry.... |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 11:22:42
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| I don't see that anywhere in that sourcebook on those pages. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 21:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a lot more to it, but that's a brief rundown. I always thought that was more interesting than the Krynnish dark elves (outcast regular elves) or the drow of most D&D worlds.
It's not as simple as just being branded an "outcast." There's a long and drawn out process involved when an Krynnish elf is declared a "dark elf" -- that impacts upon not only the elf in question, but the community he/she came from as well. The 3e DL rule-books offered some rather in-depth treatment of this aspect, actually.
Quite right. The DL sourcebook "The Sylven Veil" had a nice write-up about the ritual and its effects, as well. There was even a nice little background-type story of a pair of elves whose potential union went against traditions and thus they were forced to undergo the ritual test to determine whether they were "dark" elves. I liked the ritual so much I used parts of it for my homebrew world to explain the origin of my drow- no seperate race, these, but a bunch of elves who turned traitor and were "cursed" by a ritual using the power of the elven gods. It made for a very nice explanation of why they hate other elves so much. Being decended from the same families and race, they felt doubly enraged for being turned into something completely different. And some are still cursed if the crimes committed are bad enough, so there are some drow in my current campaign who remember what it was like to be a surface elf before their transformation. It makes for some great PC bg! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 02:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Quite right. The DL sourcebook "The Sylven Veil" had a nice write-up about the ritual and its effects, as well. There was even a nice little background-type story of a pair of elves whose potential union went against traditions and thus they were forced to undergo the ritual test to determine whether they were "dark" elves.
There's even been some further treatment of the ritual, through several short stories in the collected DL anthologies. Worthwhile reads, and plenty of interesting details. |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 09:32:06
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| FOD should read FoMD.....oops my bad... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 13:27:04
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| It be nice if we got a better idea where it is in there. Site us a big example or text from there, as what your stating is nowhere in American versions. |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 14:53:42
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“removing all taints of the drow and other fell creatures from the site,..the High Mages immediately (within the same tenday) began to weave a mythal about Elven Court... 13 High Mages that gave their lives for this new elven capital... a brand-new mythal of extraordinary strength and power, its boundaries set as a pyramid defining the city site and reflecting and enhancing the star- and moonlight... While Elven Court would not be anathema to non-elves, it was not to be a place for them to live or leave their influences”
Fall of Myth Drannor taken from page 36.....this is the mythal that I am talking about......... taken from the PDF I downloaded for free from the WOTC site... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2010 : 14:58:49
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“removing all taints of the drow and other fell creatures from the site,..the High Mages immediately (within the same tenday) began to weave a mythal about Elven Court... 13 High Mages that gave their lives for this new elven capital... a brand-new mythal of extraordinary strength and power, its boundaries set as a pyramid defining the city site and reflecting and enhancing the star- and moonlight... While Elven Court would not be anathema to non-elves, it was not to be a place for them to live or leave their influences”
Fall of Myth Drannor taken from page 36.....this is the mythal that I am talking about......... taken from the PDF I downloaded for free from the WOTC site... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Elven Court Drow
