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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 20:23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by RuulWhere is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.
FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.
For what it's worth, that note only says Quenthel forced Triel into a battle she couldn't win--it does NOT say that Quenthel necessarily killed her. Triel could very well be alive out there somewhere scheming to get her place back in Menzoberranzan.
(Or possibly that she turned her back on her evil heritage and is now a good-aligned rebel trying to overcome prejudice, etc., etc., drow will be drow.  )
Also, on the subject of male/female arch-villainesses, my books are less Realms-shaking than we're probably talking about, but I try to use equal numbers of male and female villains, some of whom have the power to be major Realms-threats in their own right. I find them very interesting to write or DM--often, I find myself making the main villain the *opposite* gender of the main hero, so as to instill a little (subtle or overt) gender warfare in my books.
Aside from Quenthel (who is already a female big bad), I would indeed have liked to see at least one or two of the big 4e villains (Manshoon, Szass Tam, etc.) be female.
Cheers
Are you planning to make a female version of one of the big 4E villains in your next book? If so, that's quite something to look forward...
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 21:11:51
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| Best way to avoid it all, would have been if he had used Why not an Magic Using Arch-Villainess. Then it would be just magic users, as compared to Arch-Villainess, which can be anything, from bards to wizards. Even commoners. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 21:54:25
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Best way to avoid it all, would have been if he had used Why not an Magic Using Arch-Villainess. Then it would be just magic users, as compared to Arch-Villainess, which can be anything, from bards to wizards. Even commoners.
Not a guarantee that some will not say something like "Why magic-users only when fighters have much potential?" Besides, this is a FORUM. So people can say almost anything. Which reminds of that topic I created where some digressed and it even got locked by mods because some people, excluding yours truly  , could not pour water in their flaming hearts, so to speak.(Just in case you haven't visited that scroll, it's entitled TELAMONT AND THE SIMBUL. Though I don't recommend a visit there.)
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Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 21:56:05 |
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Lenora Ilvastarr
Acolyte
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 21:57:14
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[/quote]
I did not say all non-magic users can never be a villain for some already are, but they can hardly (it's pretty much impossible) attain the level of arhvillain. They can succeed or rule for a year, a decade....name a span of time if you wish, but they will never be around for long because wizards or priestesses with considerable power and who find their existence an annoyance that has to be rid of, will squash them with scarcely a lift of an eyebrow!
[/quote]
I think you're forgetting one little thing. Powerful wizards and priests simply don't go around blasting people that annoy them, especially good-aligned ones since we're talking arch-villains. Do some wizards go around like that? Sure they do, but they don't last long either as a general rule. Once word gets around about his/her actions, they become a target of others seeking power.
And let's not forget alliances. Okay, you blasted evil warlord #27 that rose up this year. He bloodied his sword on a lot of innocent people like his predecessors. He's probably annoyed a lot of people alright for several years, including the wizard who killed him. But said wizard doesn't live in a bubble. His actions have consequences. Like a pebble dropped into a pond, the warlord's death carries beyond his little fiefdom. The warlord's allies are not happy and will seek revenge on said wizard because their own plans have now been disrupted. Suddenly, that wizard has more enemies than he can imagine.
It's an interesting debate. I just feel you are missing out on so many potential candidates for being an arch-villain :).
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
LOL!! Touche! I'd go with bards, myself- they have magic, and they can be SOOO creative with schemes- likethat elf bard chick in Shadowsong.
Bards are good, too. Bareris is on top of my list. Even they are magic-users.
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:16:44
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Ok... so we are clear on Dennis defination of a ArchVillain
Immortal.
Magic User.
Evil.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr
I did not say all non-magic users can never be a villain for some already are, but they can hardly (it's pretty much impossible) attain the level of arhvillain. They can succeed or rule for a year, a decade....name a span of time if you wish, but they will never be around for long because wizards or priestesses with considerable power and who find their existence an annoyance that has to be rid of, will squash them with scarcely a lift of an eyebrow!
[/quote]
I think you're forgetting one little thing. Powerful wizards and priests simply don't go around blasting people that annoy them, especially good-aligned ones since we're talking arch-villains. Do some wizards go around like that? Sure they do, but they don't last long either as a general rule. Once word gets around about his/her actions, they become a target of others seeking power.
And let's not forget alliances. Okay, you blasted evil warlord #27 that rose up this year. He bloodied his sword on a lot of innocent people like his predecessors. He's probably annoyed a lot of people alright for several years, including the wizard who killed him. But said wizard doesn't live in a bubble. His actions have consequences. Like a pebble dropped into a pond, the warlord's death carries beyond his little fiefdom. The warlord's allies are not happy and will seek revenge on said wizard because their own plans have now been disrupted. Suddenly, that wizard has more enemies than he can imagine.
It's an interesting debate. I just feel you are missing out on so many potential candidates for being an arch-villain :).
[/quote]
Oh, consider the Shadovar who considered ZK an extreme annoyance and once and for all quashed them. And ZK even had a fair number of wizards. Anyway, annoyance is but one of the many reasons why one would crush another. Power of course is one the best guiding reasons. Had ZK had a leader as strong as Telamont or Larloch, Shad would have undoubtedly had second thoughts. And what more if you make a doddering fighter the leader of ZK. Telamont would have laughed, and hardly lift a finger.
Re: alliances, remember the Return of the Archwizards? Waterdeep, Evareska, Evermeet, and Cormyr allied against the Shadovar. But were they able to bring down the city of Shade and stop the Shadovar from transforming Anauroch to a New Netheril? NO.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Ok... so we are clear on Dennis defination of a ArchVillain
Immortal.
Magic User.
Evil.
Not necessarily immortal. Though that's a plus. All the villainesses in the poll are not even immortal.
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Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 22:21:03 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:29:12
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Well, reedit your title then, and add those to your OP rather then just leave it open for any other archvillain that isn't a magic user.
Because there are females out there that are not magic users that are ArchVillians for entire books, and even book series. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:44:24
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Well, reedit your title then, and add those to your OP rather then just leave it open for any other archvillain that isn't a magic user.
Is this a MOD's demand?
No, I won't edit it. It's useless for the very same reason I mentioned as a reply to your scroll above. Or would you like me to re-post it?
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Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 22:46:13 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:48:54
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| Repost it then. Because this should be a thread on all female archvillains, but then as more and more nonmagic users go on, you refuse to put it in your options, and going NO NO NO NO, only magic users!!! Magic users are the best villains! Any nonmagic villain can never be archvillian! It hurts me brain too much to think of archvillain in other then sterotypes! So yeah, the more it goes on, and the more and more rules you tap on that should have been clearly told in your OP, then yeah, it will be fine. |
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Edited by - Dracons on 06 Jul 2010 22:49:54 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:54:39
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| Oops, you seemed to misunderstand what it is that I asked to re-post. It's not the entire topic, pal. It's my reply to your previous scroll. Okay, just see below... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 22:56:13 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 22:55:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Best way to avoid it all, would have been if he had used Why not an Magic Using Arch-Villainess. Then it would be just magic users, as compared to Arch-Villainess, which can be anything, from bards to wizards. Even commoners.
Not a guarantee that some will not say something like "Why magic-users only when fighters have much potential?" Besides, this is a FORUM. So people can say almost anything. Which reminds of that topic I created where some digressed and it even got locked by mods because some people, excluding yours truly , could not pour water in their flaming hearts, so to speak.(Just in case you haven't visited that scroll, it's entitled TELAMONT AND THE SIMBUL. Though I don't recommend a visit there.)
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 23:20:26
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Shaaan the Serpent Queen.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 23:39:25
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Haven't heard about her. What books featured her?
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2010 : 23:44:32
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| All I ask is for another option. Even OTHER would suffice, other then your nonstop list of magic users. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 00:46:13
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"Others" being an option is already implied. If people don't see their bet in the list, then they just have to write it... |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 01:55:39
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Not in the poll though. So numbers are skrewed as it only applies to the ones you pick, rather then what others pick. If you had OTHERS as an option, then yeah, it be fine. But write in's don't count in final numbers on a poll that doesn't have option.
Not all people belive that MAGIC USER equals MOST AWESOME villains EVER!!! Like you do. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 02:19:20
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Better make your own poll, then. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 02:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Shaaan the Serpent Queen.
-- George Krashos
Typical. *smirk*
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Haven't heard about her. What books featured her?
See the "Wizards Three" article in DRAGON #219. And, also, Krash wrote her up in Volume IV of the Candlekeep Compendium. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 10:49:30
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Thanks, Sage. As always, quick response!
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 14:39:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Well said, Red Walker!
Thanks....even sometimes my opinion can be right
YOur opinion is just that, your opinion. That someone else is of the same opinion does not necessarily make it "right", only proves that you two are of the same opinion. BTW, being "wicked" and "evil" may be morally "wrong", much like being a "villain", but it does not say that you are mad or deranged.
As for Quenthel Baenre and her dealings with Triel ...
quote:
Her predecessor’s cavernous audience chamber at the top of the mound was sealed at Quenthel’s orders—with the rotting corpse of her sister entombed within.
(FRCG p. 229)
... sounds rather definite for me. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 17:34:47
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For what my opinion is worth, I think the OP's greater point--that the "big bads" in the 4e FR tend to be male rather than female--is definitely valid. Whether you need magic to be an arch-villain is a secondary discussion, and I don't think it needs to be reflected in the title of the scroll.
Then again, maybe that's the direction the OP wants to go. In that case, by all means!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 18:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Well said, Red Walker!
Thanks....even sometimes my opinion can be right
YOur opinion is just that, your opinion. That someone else is of the same opinion does not necessarily make it "right", only proves that you two are of the same opinion. BTW, being "wicked" and "evil" may be morally "wrong", much like being a "villain", but it does not say that you are mad or deranged.
No that in of itself does not prove it right, but the test of time and cold hard facts do make it right. Its very convienient to remove morality and look at things in a vacuum....but that's not how things really work. (RW or in the Realms) What true Arch-Villains have there ever been who totally sane and rational to any but themselves or those that follow or admire them?
I think you would be hard pressed to find many authorotative voices who would claim someone who is a true Villain, is not damaged in some way. Villains are not just people who make different choices than the rest of us.
If being a Villain was just a series of simple choices and independant of morality wouldn't nigh upon %50 of those in the realms be Villainous? The percentage of Villains just doesnt bear that out. There are just a handful in Faerun and the vast majority are not. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Jul 2010 18:29:41 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2010 : 18:29:38
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I'm with dracons on this one. No offense, but you seem to think that the only EFFECTIVE arch-villains are all magic-users, and that simply isn't true, as we've seen plenty of examples who were not, both male and female alike. Your arguement is just too thin, I'm afraid. But if that's how you want to run your games, that's your perogative- but you're truly missing out on a LOT of potential that way! To take a few NON-FR cases, nearly ALL the super-villains in comic books, particularly Marvel and DC, are non-magic-users, and many have no powers at all, just a lot of toys and gimmicks to aid in their schemes, or a criminal organization behind them. So to say that only someone with the power to blast you with a fireball or whatever can make a good arch-villain is extremely short-sighted, at best. Even a high-level fighter with a good magic weapon or a criminal mastermind with an extended network of spies and assassins can harry a nation- or several- to no end. And even moreso if they stick around for a while, which many do simply because they are so hard to get to!
Edit: I would have voted for Triel in any case, but I agree that some option for "other" needs to be in the poll. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 07 Jul 2010 18:36:28 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 09:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
For what my opinion is worth, I think the OP's greater point--that the "big bads" in the 4e FR tend to be male rather than female--is definitely valid. Whether you need magic to be an arch-villain is a secondary discussion, and I don't think it needs to be reflected in the title of the scroll.
Cheers
Well, generally, the bulk of the major (and not-so-major) players in AD&D and 3E were males too. Only recently I had a look into Mysteries of the Moonsea and was baffled by the lack of females in there (i.e. descriptions of the organisations et al). Essentially, the drow realms (below the surface) and Dambrath apart, hardly any realm back then had a significant female percentage (1-2 in 10 at best) among the rulers and would-be-rulers. And we all know what 4E did to Dambrath ...
And to think that most drow players want nothing more than to rebel against and throw down the "vile tyranny" of the (female) rulers of the drow shows you what sort of thinking is being harboured by the players and thus being catered by the designers. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 15:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
As for Quenthel Baenre and her dealings with Triel ...
quote:
Her predecessor’s cavernous audience chamber at the top of the mound was sealed at Quenthel’s orders—with the rotting corpse of her sister entombed within.
(FRCG p. 229)... sounds rather definite for me.
Heh, well, then I withdraw my point. (Unless of course in your game or in some future novel/product Triel turns out to have faked her death, because Quenthel might well have just "put it about" that Triel perished . . . and then sealed the chamber to keep inquiring eyes out. You know--just sayin'!)
As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 16:40:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)
Cheers
[/quote]
LOL!! I agree. As an aspiring writer (are you reading this WotC? I'm available!!) I like to include a lot of female charachters into my stories, both as heroes and villains. One of my best villains is a hlaf-drow wizard/assassin named Morganna bloodbane. (whom some of you who visit the inn may have heard of from her half-brother...) I love writing about strong females- call it a hold-over from my days of watching Xena and reading Red Sonya(which I still do), I guess. Those types of characters have influenced me a lot over the years. And let's be honest- the fantasy genre in general, and not JUST FR, needs more good female characters! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 18:51:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)
Cheers
LOL!! I agree. As an aspiring writer (are you reading this WotC? I'm available!!) I like to include a lot of female charachters into my stories, both as heroes and villains. One of my best villains is a hlaf-drow wizard/assassin named Morganna bloodbane. (whom some of you who visit the inn may have heard of from her half-brother...) I love writing about strong females- call it a hold-over from my days of watching Xena and reading Red Sonya(which I still do), I guess. Those types of characters have influenced me a lot over the years. And let's be honest- the fantasy genre in general, and not JUST FR, needs more good female characters!
[/quote]
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Good thing there's drow underneath Faerun... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
Edited by - Zireael on 08 Jul 2010 18:53:29 |
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Why not an Arch-villainess? [potential SPOILERS]
Topic Locked
