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 Why not an Arch-villainess? [potential SPOILERS]
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  17:58:52  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
Just chiming in with my two Zhents, but who says they have to have magic to be an arch-villain? What about Artimis Entreri? He's been the nemisis of Drizzt and several others for HOW long? and all without using any magic himself. (weapons aside, of course) He's taken out mages, fighters, and assorted other folk with just his fighting and thieving skills. Okay- I'll get down off my soapbox now. And I agree about Jarlaxle, too. No mage, but he knows how to handle mages as well as anybody!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  18:35:26  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr

I couldn't bring myself to vote for one of those listed, so I chose someone outside the box, so to speak. My vote goes to Alauneth "the Black Viper" Orrane. She now leads the Shadow Thieves in Waterdeep, per the City of Splendors sourcebook. I find her a rather interesting character.

As for the criteria of being an Arch-villainess, one doesn't need to be an archmage to qualify. Power comes in many forms. One doesn't need magic to have it. Look at Jarlaxle. For years he navigated the twisted politics of Menzoberranzan to the point where he could nearly do anything with impunity. And he is certainly no archmage :).

Words, such as giving speeches in a public forum, and information are forms of power. One doesn't need powerful magic to control the thoughts and opinions of a populace and to gain a loyal following.

Just my 2 coppers.



Without magic, hardly can one be an effective and successful archvillain or archvillainess. Take for instance Marek Rymut (not yet an archvillain, but a powerful and sly Red Wizard nonetheless). He has the gift of speech and swayed a lot people from Innarlith just by opening his gifted mouth. But if he was not a wizard, a lot of his enemies, both from Thay and Innarlith, would have easily made him a puppet.


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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  18:38:39  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr

I couldn't bring myself to vote for one of those listed, so I chose someone outside the box, so to speak. My vote goes to Alauneth "the Black Viper" Orrane. She now leads the Shadow Thieves in Waterdeep, per the City of Splendors sourcebook. I find her a rather interesting character.

As for the criteria of being an Arch-villainess, one doesn't need to be an archmage to qualify. Power comes in many forms. One doesn't need magic to have it. Look at Jarlaxle. For years he navigated the twisted politics of Menzoberranzan to the point where he could nearly do anything with impunity. And he is certainly no archmage :).

Words, such as giving speeches in a public forum, and information are forms of power. One doesn't need powerful magic to control the thoughts and opinions of a populace and to gain a loyal following.

Just my 2 coppers.




Thank you Lenora Ilvastarr. Glad I'm not alone. But it won't matter to dennis. It's mage villain or all none-magic villains cannot exist to him.

I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  18:40:36  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Originally posted by RuulWhere is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.

FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.
For what it's worth, that note only says Quenthel forced Triel into a battle she couldn't win--it does NOT say that Quenthel necessarily killed her. Triel could very well be alive out there somewhere scheming to get her place back in Menzoberranzan.

(Or possibly that she turned her back on her evil heritage and is now a good-aligned rebel trying to overcome prejudice, etc., etc., drow will be drow. )

Also, on the subject of male/female arch-villainesses, my books are less Realms-shaking than we're probably talking about, but I try to use equal numbers of male and female villains, some of whom have the power to be major Realms-threats in their own right. I find them very interesting to write or DM--often, I find myself making the main villain the *opposite* gender of the main hero, so as to instill a little (subtle or overt) gender warfare in my books.

Aside from Quenthel (who is already a female big bad), I would indeed have liked to see at least one or two of the big 4e villains (Manshoon, Szass Tam, etc.) be female.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  18:45:21  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Just chiming in with my two Zhents, but who says they have to have magic to be an arch-villain?



Zhents??? I'm sick of them.....

Anyway, as to your claim about not having magic to be an archvillain, which some seem to favor, oh, well, if my example of Aglarond in my previous scroll is not enough, try replacing the Witches of Rashemen with pathetic (or excellent, if you wish) fighters, and let's see what Szass Tam will make of Rashemen!


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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  18:49:49  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

quote:
Originally posted by dennis


Another possible candidate is that seemingly crazy witch in Frostfell. Can't remember her name. She's the one who sought magicl magical items and intended to eat the humans, but was prevented by the belkagen. She's kinda mysterious.


Ach well, it is one of the good old well-treaded prejeduces that villainesses have to be crazy ... or be otherwise mildly deranged. Nigh all who were not (in novels), met a quick end at the close of the story. Shadowsil anyone? That durthan lass in Shield of the Weeping Ghost, a score of level-headed drow priestesses, you name them ...



To be fair, by definiton a villain is some one wicked or evil....so they usually arent quite right in the head regardless of gender.



Well said, Red Walker!

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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3542 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  18:52:50  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Originally posted by RuulWhere is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.

FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.
For what it's worth, that note only says Quenthel forced Triel into a battle she couldn't win--it does NOT say that Quenthel necessarily killed her. Triel could very well be alive out there somewhere scheming to get her place back in Menzoberranzan.

(Or possibly that she turned her back on her evil heritage and is now a good-aligned rebel trying to overcome prejudice, etc., etc., drow will be drow. )

Also, on the subject of male/female arch-villainesses, my books are less Realms-shaking than we're probably talking about, but I try to use equal numbers of male and female villains, some of whom have the power to be major Realms-threats in their own right. I find them very interesting to write or DM--often, I find myself making the main villain the *opposite* gender of the main hero, so as to instill a little (subtle or overt) gender warfare in my books.

Aside from Quenthel (who is already a female big bad), I would indeed have liked to see at least one or two of the big 4e villains (Manshoon, Szass Tam, etc.) be female.

Cheers




I am laughin' my effin butt off, thinking of Manshoon reaction after "the blue fire" made him into a female

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3542 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  18:54:24  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

quote:
Originally posted by dennis


Another possible candidate is that seemingly crazy witch in Frostfell. Can't remember her name. She's the one who sought magicl magical items and intended to eat the humans, but was prevented by the belkagen. She's kinda mysterious.


Ach well, it is one of the good old well-treaded prejeduces that villainesses have to be crazy ... or be otherwise mildly deranged. Nigh all who were not (in novels), met a quick end at the close of the story. Shadowsil anyone? That durthan lass in Shield of the Weeping Ghost, a score of level-headed drow priestesses, you name them ...



To be fair, by definiton a villain is some one wicked or evil....so they usually arent quite right in the head regardless of gender.



Well said, Red Walker!




Thanks....even sometimes my opinion can be right

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  19:00:13  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr

I couldn't bring myself to vote for one of those listed, so I chose someone outside the box, so to speak. My vote goes to Alauneth "the Black Viper" Orrane. She now leads the Shadow Thieves in Waterdeep, per the City of Splendors sourcebook. I find her a rather interesting character.

As for the criteria of being an Arch-villainess, one doesn't need to be an archmage to qualify. Power comes in many forms. One doesn't need magic to have it. Look at Jarlaxle. For years he navigated the twisted politics of Menzoberranzan to the point where he could nearly do anything with impunity. And he is certainly no archmage :).

Words, such as giving speeches in a public forum, and information are forms of power. One doesn't need powerful magic to control the thoughts and opinions of a populace and to gain a loyal following.

Just my 2 coppers.




Thank you Lenora Ilvastarr. Glad I'm not alone. But it won't matter to dennis. It's mage villain or all none-magic villains cannot exist to him.




I did not say all non-magic users can never be a villain for some already are, but they can hardly (it's pretty much impossible) attain the level of arhvillain. They can succeed or rule for a year, a decade....name a span of time if you wish, but they will never be around for long because wizards or priestesses with considerable power and who find their existence an annoyance that has to be rid of, will squash them with scarcely a lift of an eyebrow!


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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  19:09:53  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Originally posted by RuulWhere is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.

FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.
For what it's worth, that note only says Quenthel forced Triel into a battle she couldn't win--it does NOT say that Quenthel necessarily killed her. Triel could very well be alive out there somewhere scheming to get her place back in Menzoberranzan.

(Or possibly that she turned her back on her evil heritage and is now a good-aligned rebel trying to overcome prejudice, etc., etc., drow will be drow. )

Also, on the subject of male/female arch-villainesses, my books are less Realms-shaking than we're probably talking about, but I try to use equal numbers of male and female villains, some of whom have the power to be major Realms-threats in their own right. I find them very interesting to write or DM--often, I find myself making the main villain the *opposite* gender of the main hero, so as to instill a little (subtle or overt) gender warfare in my books.

Aside from Quenthel (who is already a female big bad), I would indeed have liked to see at least one or two of the big 4e villains (Manshoon, Szass Tam, etc.) be female.

Cheers




I am laughin' my effin butt off, thinking of Manshoon reaction after "the blue fire" made him into a female



If Mashoon becomes a female, surely she'll have to take a lover...Fzoul, perhaps?...Now that will be quite a sight!

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  19:27:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

And speaking of lover, did Szass Tam ever have a lover when he was still human?


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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  19:41:22  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by dracons

quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr

I couldn't bring myself to vote for one of those listed, so I chose someone outside the box, so to speak. My vote goes to Alauneth "the Black Viper" Orrane. She now leads the Shadow Thieves in Waterdeep, per the City of Splendors sourcebook. I find her a rather interesting character.

As for the criteria of being an Arch-villainess, one doesn't need to be an archmage to qualify. Power comes in many forms. One doesn't need magic to have it. Look at Jarlaxle. For years he navigated the twisted politics of Menzoberranzan to the point where he could nearly do anything with impunity. And he is certainly no archmage :).

Words, such as giving speeches in a public forum, and information are forms of power. One doesn't need powerful magic to control the thoughts and opinions of a populace and to gain a loyal following.

Just my 2 coppers.




Thank you Lenora Ilvastarr. Glad I'm not alone. But it won't matter to dennis. It's mage villain or all none-magic villains cannot exist to him.




I did not say all non-magic users can never be a villain for some already are, but they can hardly (it's pretty much impossible) attain the level of arhvillain. They can succeed or rule for a year, a decade....name a span of time if you wish, but they will never be around for long because wizards or priestesses with considerable power and who find their existence an annoyance that has to be rid of, will squash them with scarcely a lift of an eyebrow!





So basically, what you're saying is that they can't really be an arch-villain unless they're around for centuries due to having magic to use? I call BS!!! As to the Rashemen question, I can blow that theory out of the water in three words. Purple Dragon Knights. They have no magic (except perhaps a few who might have learned some) as most are fighters or perhaps a few palis (and even that's pushing the magic-use), yet they defend Cormyr quite well without it. Sure there are the War Wizards, too, but it's usually the Knights who do most of the work. Same goes for the dwarves of Mithril Hall or Adbar, or the folk of Mirabar, for that matter. Fighters and their ilk can defend- or concquor- a kingdom just as well as any wizards or priests, so that's not much of an argument. Besides which, far more people train with weapons, which gives a distinct numerical advantage. A wizard or priest, no matter HOW powerful, will eventually run out of spells!!! So much for the best arch-villains being magic-users. The best ones, IMO, don't NEED magic to muck things up severely....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  19:54:30  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by dracons

quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr

I couldn't bring myself to vote for one of those listed, so I chose someone outside the box, so to speak. My vote goes to Alauneth "the Black Viper" Orrane. She now leads the Shadow Thieves in Waterdeep, per the City of Splendors sourcebook. I find her a rather interesting character.

As for the criteria of being an Arch-villainess, one doesn't need to be an archmage to qualify. Power comes in many forms. One doesn't need magic to have it. Look at Jarlaxle. For years he navigated the twisted politics of Menzoberranzan to the point where he could nearly do anything with impunity. And he is certainly no archmage :).

Words, such as giving speeches in a public forum, and information are forms of power. One doesn't need powerful magic to control the thoughts and opinions of a populace and to gain a loyal following.

Just my 2 coppers.




Thank you Lenora Ilvastarr. Glad I'm not alone. But it won't matter to dennis. It's mage villain or all none-magic villains cannot exist to him.




I did not say all non-magic users can never be a villain for some already are, but they can hardly (it's pretty much impossible) attain the level of arhvillain. They can succeed or rule for a year, a decade....name a span of time if you wish, but they will never be around for long because wizards or priestesses with considerable power and who find their existence an annoyance that has to be rid of, will squash them with scarcely a lift of an eyebrow!





So basically, what you're saying is that they can't really be an arch-villain unless they're around for centuries due to having magic to use? I call BS!!! As to the Rashemen question, I can blow that theory out of the water in three words. Purple Dragon Knights. They have no magic (except perhaps a few who might have learned some) as most are fighters or perhaps a few palis (and even that's pushing the magic-use), yet they defend Cormyr quite well without it. Sure there are the War Wizards, too, but it's usually the Knights who do most of the work. Same goes for the dwarves of Mithril Hall or Adbar, or the folk of Mirabar, for that matter. Fighters and their ilk can defend- or concquor- a kingdom just as well as any wizards or priests, so that's not much of an argument. Besides which, far more people train with weapons, which gives a distinct numerical advantage. A wizard or priest, no matter HOW powerful, will eventually run out of spells!!! So much for the best arch-villains being magic-users. The best ones, IMO, don't NEED magic to muck things up severely....



----sigh----

You still don't see my point. But that's okay...I'm pretty much in a very good mood now to argue further...I'm still imagining the female Manshoon kissing Fzoul. Perchane you should try thinking of it, too, to see my point above.

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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  20:04:28  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
Well seeing as Rashemen is also full of warriors and only lead by sorcerers, along with Rashamen's army of barbarians that tear red wizards apart, the whole arch villain only being worthy of threats if they are magic users really isn't holding water.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  20:07:55  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I could imagine that well enough without having to muddle it up by trying to see a point I don't happen to agree with. so just exactly what IS your point? That you can't have an arch-villain unless they're frigging immortal because they use magic? Why do all major villains need to be liches, vampires (Strahd comes to mind, and yes, I know he's from RL) or some demented god's Chosen priest? Lolth's preistesses get killed of pretty regularly, and they are about as evil as it gets. Why NOT have a good non-magic villain? Or is that too hard to comprehend? Here's a good example of a non-magic arch-villain: Queen Gedron from Red Sonya(if you're old enough to remember that movie), or how about that creep Damodar from the two D&D movies? Excellent arch-villains, both. (And yes, Damdar was Prophion's lacky originally, but you see how well he out-lasted his master...) or King Einan from Dragonheart, and there are plenty of others both in and out of FR lore. You don't need magic for a great villain, just a really evil guy(or gal) and a little imagination. you know, the kind of person who would kick a starving puppy as they walk by, or take candy from babies, or have their army ride through a kingdom torching everyting, just because they CAN. Well, hopefully with a little bit more motivation then that, but you get my meaning.

I concur, dracons.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u

Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 06 Jul 2010 20:18:12
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  20:23:02  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Originally posted by RuulWhere is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.

FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.
For what it's worth, that note only says Quenthel forced Triel into a battle she couldn't win--it does NOT say that Quenthel necessarily killed her. Triel could very well be alive out there somewhere scheming to get her place back in Menzoberranzan.

(Or possibly that she turned her back on her evil heritage and is now a good-aligned rebel trying to overcome prejudice, etc., etc., drow will be drow. )

Also, on the subject of male/female arch-villainesses, my books are less Realms-shaking than we're probably talking about, but I try to use equal numbers of male and female villains, some of whom have the power to be major Realms-threats in their own right. I find them very interesting to write or DM--often, I find myself making the main villain the *opposite* gender of the main hero, so as to instill a little (subtle or overt) gender warfare in my books.

Aside from Quenthel (who is already a female big bad), I would indeed have liked to see at least one or two of the big 4e villains (Manshoon, Szass Tam, etc.) be female.

Cheers



Are you planning to make a female version of one of the big 4E villains in your next book? If so, that's quite something to look forward...


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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  21:11:51  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
Best way to avoid it all, would have been if he had used Why not an Magic Using Arch-Villainess. Then it would be just magic users, as compared to Arch-Villainess, which can be anything, from bards to wizards. Even commoners.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  21:21:49  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
LOL!! Touche! I'd go with bards, myself- they have magic, and they can be SOOO creative with schemes- likethat elf bard chick in Shadowsong.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  21:54:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

Best way to avoid it all, would have been if he had used Why not an Magic Using Arch-Villainess. Then it would be just magic users, as compared to Arch-Villainess, which can be anything, from bards to wizards. Even commoners.



Not a guarantee that some will not say something like "Why magic-users only when fighters have much potential?" Besides, this is a FORUM. So people can say almost anything. Which reminds of that topic I created where some digressed and it even got locked by mods because some people, excluding yours truly , could not pour water in their flaming hearts, so to speak.(Just in case you haven't visited that scroll, it's entitled TELAMONT AND THE SIMBUL. Though I don't recommend a visit there.)

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Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 21:56:05
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Lenora Ilvastarr
Seeker

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  21:57:14  Show Profile Send Lenora Ilvastarr a Private Message
[/quote]


I did not say all non-magic users can never be a villain for some already are, but they can hardly (it's pretty much impossible) attain the level of arhvillain. They can succeed or rule for a year, a decade....name a span of time if you wish, but they will never be around for long because wizards or priestesses with considerable power and who find their existence an annoyance that has to be rid of, will squash them with scarcely a lift of an eyebrow!


[/quote]

I think you're forgetting one little thing. Powerful wizards and priests simply don't go around blasting people that annoy them, especially good-aligned ones since we're talking arch-villains. Do some wizards go around like that? Sure they do, but they don't last long either as a general rule. Once word gets around about his/her actions, they become a target of others seeking power.

And let's not forget alliances. Okay, you blasted evil warlord #27 that rose up this year. He bloodied his sword on a lot of innocent people like his predecessors. He's probably annoyed a lot of people alright for several years, including the wizard who killed him. But said wizard doesn't live in a bubble. His actions have consequences. Like a pebble dropped into a pond, the warlord's death carries beyond his little fiefdom. The warlord's allies are not happy and will seek revenge on said wizard because their own plans have now been disrupted. Suddenly, that wizard has more enemies than he can imagine.

It's an interesting debate. I just feel you are missing out on so many potential candidates for being an arch-villain :).
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:02:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

LOL!! Touche! I'd go with bards, myself- they have magic, and they can be SOOO creative with schemes- likethat elf bard chick in Shadowsong.



Bards are good, too. Bareris is on top of my list. Even they are magic-users.


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Dracons
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Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:16:44  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
Ok... so we are clear on Dennis defination of a ArchVillain


Immortal.

Magic User.

Evil.


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Dennis
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Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:18:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr





I did not say all non-magic users can never be a villain for some already are, but they can hardly (it's pretty much impossible) attain the level of arhvillain. They can succeed or rule for a year, a decade....name a span of time if you wish, but they will never be around for long because wizards or priestesses with considerable power and who find their existence an annoyance that has to be rid of, will squash them with scarcely a lift of an eyebrow!


[/quote]

I think you're forgetting one little thing. Powerful wizards and priests simply don't go around blasting people that annoy them, especially good-aligned ones since we're talking arch-villains. Do some wizards go around like that? Sure they do, but they don't last long either as a general rule. Once word gets around about his/her actions, they become a target of others seeking power.

And let's not forget alliances. Okay, you blasted evil warlord #27 that rose up this year. He bloodied his sword on a lot of innocent people like his predecessors. He's probably annoyed a lot of people alright for several years, including the wizard who killed him. But said wizard doesn't live in a bubble. His actions have consequences. Like a pebble dropped into a pond, the warlord's death carries beyond his little fiefdom. The warlord's allies are not happy and will seek revenge on said wizard because their own plans have now been disrupted. Suddenly, that wizard has more enemies than he can imagine.

It's an interesting debate. I just feel you are missing out on so many potential candidates for being an arch-villain :).

[/quote]

Oh, consider the Shadovar who considered ZK an extreme annoyance and once and for all quashed them. And ZK even had a fair number of wizards. Anyway, annoyance is but one of the many reasons why one would crush another. Power of course is one the best guiding reasons. Had ZK had a leader as strong as Telamont or Larloch, Shad would have undoubtedly had second thoughts. And what more if you make a doddering fighter the leader of ZK. Telamont would have laughed, and hardly lift a finger.

Re: alliances, remember the Return of the Archwizards? Waterdeep, Evareska, Evermeet, and Cormyr allied against the Shadovar. But were they able to bring down the city of Shade and stop the Shadovar from transforming Anauroch to a New Netheril? NO.

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Dennis
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Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:20:32  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

Ok... so we are clear on Dennis defination of a ArchVillain


Immortal.

Magic User.

Evil.





Not necessarily immortal. Though that's a plus. All the villainesses in the poll are not even immortal.


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Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 22:21:03
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Dracons
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Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:29:12  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
Well, reedit your title then, and add those to your OP rather then just leave it open for any other archvillain that isn't a magic user.


Because there are females out there that are not magic users that are ArchVillians for entire books, and even book series.

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