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 Why not an Arch-villainess? [potential SPOILERS]
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
894 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  01:03:33  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message
Well, there is the the fact that a fighter, no matter how strong he becomes, has no 'easy' way to immortality like a wizard. So I guess it'd be easier to achieve greatness, the kind that Tam, Larloch or Manshoon have, if you can wield magic. Try naming people whose name will be forever remembered without life-extending effects, and you will find that there is as many non-magic wielder than those who do (or at least, the ratio will be balanced a little bit more). Of course, elves will propably negate my argument here.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  01:28:14  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

One famous fighter who achieved immortality by drinking an elixir is Malark. He's even older than Tam. But even he realized that no matter how strong he becomes as a fighter, he'll never be strong enough to deal with the ruthless Red Wizards and be an effective right hand of Tam. That is why he studied magic and eventually became a Red Wizard himself.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dracons
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USA
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Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  02:00:05  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
Oh, and what exactly has Larloch, or Manshoon done exactly that is, evil....?

OMG they use MAGIC. Larloch spends centries in his tower trying to learn how to use super portals. Yeah. Real evil guy that one.

Manshoon became leaders of guilds for money. Wow. Evil. I'm going to have freaking nightmares.

At least Lord Cutter is you know, killing people, taking over cities, making it so people cannot be with their loved ones just for the hell of it, keeping children prisoner. Real deeds that are kinda well, evil. Something a Archvillain would do.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  02:33:09  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message



I don't really care about Manshoon. After all, for me he's nothing but a cockroach, annoying but hard to get rid of...He could die, launch a fashion show, pay earth a visit....for all I care. I just mentioned him because, like a cockroach, he's been around awhile. And he's killed people not just to get where he's at now (which I don't give a damn), but to eliminate or try to eliminate his enemies (El, among them).

As of Larloch, well, let me reiterate my response to capnvan's comment (in page 1) that Larloch as per canon is a lawful evil: It's just that I don't see his evil deeds in the Realms, and for me a "seemingly absent" evil is neutral, or almost. So although we have more or less the same sentiments towards Larloch, let's just drop it 'cause we cannot refute canon.

Now with Tam, well, needless to say, he is anything but evil, albeit a philosophical one. The Haunted Lands trilogy is more than enough proof.


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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  03:12:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

Oh, and what exactly has Larloch, or Manshoon done exactly that is, evil....?

OMG they use MAGIC. Larloch spends centries in his tower trying to learn how to use super portals. Yeah. Real evil guy that one.

Manshoon became leaders of guilds for money. Wow. Evil. I'm going to have freaking nightmares.

At least Lord Cutter is you know, killing people, taking over cities, making it so people cannot be with their loved ones just for the hell of it, keeping children prisoner. Real deeds that are kinda well, evil. Something a Archvillain would do.



Manshoon founded and was the leader of a group of backstabbing folks (often, literally backstabbing) that killed each other and anyone else who got in their way, whether for political, mercantile, magical, or personal advancement. Is that not evil enough?

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jul 2010 03:14:29
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  03:21:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Sounds like Wallstreet to me

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TheMadMage
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  03:38:56  Show Profile Send TheMadMage a Private Message
Yes she would need magic. Or atleast some sort of nigh indestructible sheild against magic. Cause unfortunately you can be the best most wonderful fighter EVER and you get hit with a fireball (a semi weak spell) with no protection..... your just as fried as a pathetic fighter. This is towards the "why cant a fighter be an arch-villainess" part.

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Edited by - TheMadMage on 03 Jul 2010 03:45:05
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  04:41:45  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

Oh, and what exactly has Larloch, or Manshoon done exactly that is, evil....?

OMG they use MAGIC. Larloch spends centries in his tower trying to learn how to use super portals. Yeah. Real evil guy that one.

Manshoon became leaders of guilds for money. Wow. Evil. I'm going to have freaking nightmares.
Perform a search here for Larloch discussion scrolls. That should provide more than enough information as to why concern over some of Larloch's plots provoke many into thinking he's nefariously evil.

As for Manshoon... read any Ed Greenwood book [especially the "Knights of Myth Drannor" trilogy] and you'll soon learn to appreciate the intricate nature of Manshoon's evil schemes.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  04:57:30  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by TheMadMage

Yes she would need magic. Or atleast some sort of nigh indestructible sheild against magic. Cause unfortunately you can be the best most wonderful fighter EVER and you get hit with a fireball (a semi weak spell) with no protection..... your just as fried as a pathetic fighter. This is towards the "why cant a fighter be an arch-villainess" part.



True, she'd need magic. But not just "nigh indestructible sheild against magic," for even though she'd be able to protect herself, how in the world will she win if she can't fight back using the Art? For her to succeed, she'd need magic both for defense and offense. In short, she cannot hope to be an archvillainess unless she becomes a wizard, a priestess, or a druid at least.


Every beginning has an end.
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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  05:33:49  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Now with Tam, well, needless to say, he is anything but evil, albeit a philosophical one. The Haunted Lands trilogy is more than enough proof.





Totally agree about Tam. He is evil. That's why I didn't include him.

As for Manshoon's backstabbing group, that is where Lord Cutter is from. She is a member, and used their forces quite well. Again, magic isn't always needed by itself to be used. After all, if you can control several mages to do your dirty work, use them as pawns and as red herrings, it be very difficult to get to you. That's why I admire her so much. She isn't a mage, and yet she can still take them on and win more often then not. Being a archvillain is being something that can constently harm you, and She has done that to Celadon and others. She's a bitch and proud of it. Leader of a city, incredible fighter, major backstabber.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I just think that being a magic user shouldn't be the entire criteria of a archvillain. Archvillains are the ones that you cannot beat, cannot stop, and who can always find ways to harm you and destroy anything you have just for giggles and to see you cry when you have nothing to stop them with. She did this with her fighting ability, not magic. Sure, magic users are powerful and can do alot, but even she can beat you. Sets traps, use other wizards to draw them into areas of Dead magic. If you can't use the art, that sword just hurts all the more.

I do agree all those others are great, but she should have a place on the rooster, even if it is a low part.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  07:07:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
She can influence insignificant wizards to do her will in exchange for something. But what about the powerful wizards, the ones who truly matter? What will she bribe them with? Information? Gold? Well, they can take those from her without sweat. And as to her wits, well, unless all wizards in Toril suddenly become deranged, she'll never outwit them all.

Have you ever wondered why there is not a single archvillain fighter? It's because of the same reasons above. She'd hope who control wizards, but in the end she'll find it's the wizards controlling her. Having zilch magical ability, she wouldn't even notice that they've already enspelled her to do their whims.


Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 03 Jul 2010 07:11:07
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GRYPHON
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USA
520 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  15:36:05  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message
Quenthel Baenre...
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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  19:09:23  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

She can influence insignificant wizards to do her will in exchange for something. But what about the powerful wizards, the ones who truly matter? What will she bribe them with? Information? Gold? Well, they can take those from her without sweat. And as to her wits, well, unless all wizards in Toril suddenly become deranged, she'll never outwit them all.

Have you ever wondered why there is not a single archvillain fighter? It's because of the same reasons above. She'd hope who control wizards, but in the end she'll find it's the wizards controlling her. Having zilch magical ability, she wouldn't even notice that they've already enspelled her to do their whims.





Again. She was an Archvillain in a few books. So stating she's not a archvillain isn't true.

What books had Larloch in it that he was primary villain? Not any if I recalled right. Szass tam, Telamont? Yeah. They were also main villains.

I belive you think that all these super villains are arch enemies in all games. But being an archvillain in a game is different from archvillains that are canon, such as Lord Cutter being one.

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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
804 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  20:37:35  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan

quote:
Originally posted by dennis
[Larloch (though arguably, since he seems to be more neutral than evil)



Just a quibble - I think it's been fairly well established over the years that Larloch is thoroughly evil. It's just that much of what he's doing doesn't have any noticeable effect on the Realms, as perceived by PCs et al.



He is certainly evil and willing to do whatever necessary to achieve his goals. More a lawful evil type who keeps his minions in check and does not go out of his way to cause trouble.

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Thauramarth
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United Kingdom
656 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2010 :  20:37:35  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message
A sadly overlooked potential archvillainess would be Cassana... So, sure, she may be "officially dead", but the woman did have a few tricks up her sleeve. She may yet surprise.

Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2010 :  06:28:50  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

From what little I know of her, I think she looks interesting. But I haven't read Azure Bonds yet (quite busy with Clemens' books lately), so my basis might be quite shallow. That's the only book where she's featured, right?


Every beginning has an end.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2010 :  14:44:30  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message
Starleaf, the green elf that caused the Sundering, the Simbul's got potential too
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
656 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2010 :  22:48:03  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

From what little I know of her, I think she looks interesting. But I haven't read Azure Bonds yet (quite busy with Clemens' books lately), so my basis might be quite shallow. That's the only book where she's featured, right?

She was statted out for 1E and 2E in FR7-Hall of Heroes and Villains' Lorebook, the latter still available as a free download from the WotC site HERE.

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2010 :  06:18:14  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Starleaf, the green elf that caused the Sundering, the Simbul's got potential too



Given that it ultimately led to the Spellplague, and in the shorter term caused immense destruction and loss of life, I would have to call the Sundering the single greatest act of evil in the history of Toril. Yes, even more evil than the acts of the Vyshaan during the Crown Wars, or even the sacking of Myth Drannor by the Army of Darkness.

To return more precisely to topic, the 3E Realms had an amazing arch-villainess in Impiltur, in the person of the succubus Soneillon, but the Spellplague wiped her out like she never existed. Just another reason why I allowed my PCs the chance to actually stop the Spellplague in the big adventure trilogy, at which they succeeded admirably (with no help from the supposedly problematic Chosen at all).

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 05 Jul 2010 06:19:16
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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2010 :  06:31:40  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

[quote]Originally posted by Quale

Just another reason why I allowed my PCs the chance to actually stop the Spellplague in the big adventure trilogy, at which they succeeded admirably (with no help from the supposedly problematic Chosen at all).




That's because the Chosen are only /problematic/ when the DM chooses to let them, or the players just give up and go /let them do it!/.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2010 :  08:03:01  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

Starleaf, the green elf that caused the Sundering, the Simbul's got potential too



I still prefer the Simbul to be a hero. She's too precious to lose. But you're right, with all her wild ways, she's definitely got the potential.

Re: Starleaf, well, I think I said it quite a lot of times that I never like elves, save a very, very few drow, so she's out of my list. I just included Kiva because I like Counselors and Kings.


Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 05 Jul 2010 08:10:20
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2010 :  12:51:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Another possible candidate is that seemingly crazy witch in Frostfell. Can't remember her name. She's the one who sought magicl magical items and intended to eat the humans, but was prevented by the belkagen. She's kinda mysterious.




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Zanan
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Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  14:12:10  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis


Another possible candidate is that seemingly crazy witch in Frostfell. Can't remember her name. She's the one who sought magicl magical items and intended to eat the humans, but was prevented by the belkagen. She's kinda mysterious.


Ach well, it is one of the good old well-treaded prejeduces that villainesses have to be crazy ... or be otherwise mildly deranged. Nigh all who were not (in novels), met a quick end at the close of the story. Shadowsil anyone? That durthan lass in Shield of the Weeping Ghost, a score of level-headed drow priestesses, you name them ...

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Edited by - Zanan on 06 Jul 2010 14:13:15
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The Red Walker
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USA
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Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  15:06:28  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

quote:
Originally posted by dennis


Another possible candidate is that seemingly crazy witch in Frostfell. Can't remember her name. She's the one who sought magicl magical items and intended to eat the humans, but was prevented by the belkagen. She's kinda mysterious.


Ach well, it is one of the good old well-treaded prejeduces that villainesses have to be crazy ... or be otherwise mildly deranged. Nigh all who were not (in novels), met a quick end at the close of the story. Shadowsil anyone? That durthan lass in Shield of the Weeping Ghost, a score of level-headed drow priestesses, you name them ...



To be fair, by definiton a villain is some one wicked or evil....so they usually arent quite right in the head regardless of gender.

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Lenora Ilvastarr
Seeker

USA
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Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  17:02:49  Show Profile Send Lenora Ilvastarr a Private Message
I couldn't bring myself to vote for one of those listed, so I chose someone outside the box, so to speak. My vote goes to Alauneth "the Black Viper" Orrane. She now leads the Shadow Thieves in Waterdeep, per the City of Splendors sourcebook. I find her a rather interesting character.

As for the criteria of being an Arch-villainess, one doesn't need to be an archmage to qualify. Power comes in many forms. One doesn't need magic to have it. Look at Jarlaxle. For years he navigated the twisted politics of Menzoberranzan to the point where he could nearly do anything with impunity. And he is certainly no archmage :).

Words, such as giving speeches in a public forum, and information are forms of power. One doesn't need powerful magic to control the thoughts and opinions of a populace and to gain a loyal following.

Just my 2 coppers.
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