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 Why not an Arch-villainess? [potential SPOILERS]
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The Sage
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  02:37:39  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

Sage, I came across a tidbit...There's a female lich who's a member of the Twisted Rune named Jymahna. Is she as interesting as Shyressa?
Well, she's a lich. So that's already a plus in my book, given my deep interest in all-things-lichdom. And I'd say the whole mystery surrounding her mask is intriguing enough [and certainly something I'd like to know more about]. I suppose this question would really be partly dependent on whether you're a vampire- or lich-fan.
quote:
Did she appear in novels?
Not specifically, no. Which is a shame, because I'd really like to learn more about her.

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Dennis
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  02:59:00  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

A shame indeed...I'd find her interesting because I am a lich fan, too. Did all the members of the Twisted Rune survive the SP?


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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  03:10:11  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message


I think the Ice Queen (the high priestess of Auril in The Ruin) would also make an incredible archvillainess. Not to mention sexy. Too bad she died. Her final battle with Zethrindor is one of the well-executed/written battles in the realms. (But of course I am partial to Richard.)


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The Sage
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  03:15:03  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis


A shame indeed...I'd find her interesting because I am a lich fan, too. Did all the members of the Twisted Rune survive the SP?



I don't recall it being specifically mentioned, but the brief reference about the Twisted Rune in FRCG doesn't note any particular impact of the Spellplague upon the cabal. Though, given the intricate levels of arcana weaved through the organisation and those arcane elements that greatly support some memebers, I doubt they all escaped completely unscathed.

I'll note also that Bruce R. Cordell's "Tomb of the Astronomer" article from DRAGON #360 doesn't reference any particular effect of the Spellplague upon the undead spellcasters either. [Though, the actual time-placement of that write-up is kinda vague.]

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Dennis
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  03:26:31  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Thanks, Sage.

I think it's safe to infer that the effects of the SP to them are like those to Szass Tam. He was considerably enervated and he lost some of his powerful, self-devised spells. But alive.


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Dracons
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  04:46:36  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  07:54:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books.



At her current status, it's unlikely she'll rise to Archvillainess. She's just a fighter, albeit a pretty excellent one. She has to learn magic first.

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Zanan
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Germany
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  09:16:35  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message
Well, the transition to as well as 4E lore provided a host of spoilers for us pre-Spellplague campaigners, like ... Triel getting killed by Quenthel (methinks the usual "just because" drow rule), the durthan being chased out of Rashemen (and thus existence), the Loviatar-priestesses ruling Dambrath getting burned at the stake (aye right, cheers for that!) during a rebellion, nigh all zulkirs of Thay being killed ... you name it.

BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months).

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Dennis
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  09:40:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

Well, the transition to as well as 4E lore provided a host of spoilers for us pre-Spellplague campaigners, like ... Triel getting killed by Quenthel (methinks the usual "just because" drow rule), the durthan being chased out of Rashemen (and thus existence), the Loviatar-priestesses ruling Dambrath getting burned at the stake (aye right, cheers for that!) during a rebellion, nigh all zulkirs of Thay being killed ... you name it.

BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months).



Not all who read this scroll are pre-Spellplague campaigners. Some are just "infants" to the Realms. So it's still imperative that I should have put spoilers in the title. It's just that I often forgot because I myself don't mind being spoiled in other scrolls, whether there's a warning or not.


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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  09:57:16  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message
Voted Quenthel. Don't know about female liches.

quote:
BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months).


Yeah, Shyntlara was cool. Liked her. Pity she's not on the list.

And 4e just created lots of havoc and destroyed cool villains and heroes alike...

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  10:20:50  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

Voted Quenthel. Don't know about female liches.

And 4e just created lots of havoc and destroyed cool villains and heroes alike...



I do not want to sound like a defender of 4E. But there are changes with the characters that balance the disappointing with the fascinating.
For one, while I find getting rid of all the zulkirs quite disheartening (if not utterly ridiculous), I like it that they (for I am sure that it's not just Richard who decided on it) put Szass Tam in his rightful place after centuries of scheming.



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Ruul
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USA
64 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  13:08:56  Show Profile  Visit Ruul's Homepage  Send Ruul an AOL message Send Ruul a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

Well, the transition to as well as 4E lore provided a host of spoilers for us pre-Spellplague campaigners, like ... Triel getting killed by Quenthel (methinks the usual "just because" drow rule), the durthan being chased out of Rashemen (and thus existence), the Loviatar-priestesses ruling Dambrath getting burned at the stake (aye right, cheers for that!) during a rebellion, nigh all zulkirs of Thay being killed ... you name it.

BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months).



Where is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.
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capnvan
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USA
592 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  13:12:46  Show Profile  Visit capnvan's Homepage Send capnvan a Private Message
To my mind, one of the prerequisites for arch-villainess-hood is marriage.

If you're not making some man (or woman!)'s life miserable, how can you expect to become truly evil?

"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing."
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  13:30:50  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ruul

Where is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.



FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.


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Ruul
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USA
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  14:21:37  Show Profile  Visit Ruul's Homepage  Send Ruul an AOL message Send Ruul a Private Message
Well heck, I must have totally missed it. I'll have to check it out when I get home.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  15:58:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan

To my mind, one of the prerequisites for arch-villainess-hood is marriage.

If you're not making some man (or woman!)'s life miserable, how can you expect to become truly evil?



Well, Lallara and Quenthel are "truly evil." And having husbands for them is just having toys to play and throw away once they're bored with them. In other words, they and other evil woman characters do not have to marry just to have some playthings or ephemeral pleasures.


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Alystra Illianniis
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USA
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  19:49:11  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Originally posted by Ruul

Where is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.



FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.






When the heck did this happen? more importantly, HOW did that happen, when Quenthel was "eaten" by Lolth in WotSQ? Triel was still alive in the LP series.... I hate retcons....

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Kilvan
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Canada
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  19:54:48  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
When the heck did this happen? more importantly, HOW did that happen, when Quenthel was "eaten" by Lolth in WotSQ? Triel was still alive in the LP series.... I hate retcons....



WotSQ SPOILER



No she was not. In fact, she was the only one allowed to returned to Menzoberranzan to spread the news of Lolth 'resurrection'. The one eaten was Danifae, and she came back as Lolth new face instant later. Halisstra's fate is covered in the lady penitent trilogy. Every males perished at some point.

So, if Quenthel killed Triel some years after (something she would have done sooner or later), it can not be considered a retcon.

EDIT: I remember now that Valas, the ranger, also survived because he left once the group reached the Abyss, his contract completed.

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Edited by - Kilvan on 02 Jul 2010 19:58:36
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  20:08:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
When the heck did this happen? more importantly, HOW did that happen, when Quenthel was "eaten" by Lolth in WotSQ? Triel was still alive in the LP series.... I hate retcons....



WotSQ SPOILER



No she was not. In fact, she was the only one allowed to returned to Menzoberranzan to spread the news of Lolth 'resurrection'. The one eaten was Danifae, and she came back as Lolth new face instant later. Halisstra's fate is covered in the lady penitent trilogy. Every males perished at some point.

So, if Quenthel killed Triel some years after (something she would have done sooner or later), it can not be considered a retcon.

EDIT: I remember now that Valas, the ranger, also survived because he left once the group reached the Abyss, his contract completed.



No, not a retcon. Quenthel had always believed her sister to be incompetent and lacked the strong will to lead the city. In fact, she (and the entire Menzo-folks) knew that the peak of her ambition was just to be a high priestess of Lolth. Seeing it on a different angle, Quenthel just did her a favor by killing her.

Besides, it's hardly a surprise to see drow killing each other. That's part of their nature.


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Ruul
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  20:25:42  Show Profile  Visit Ruul's Homepage  Send Ruul an AOL message Send Ruul a Private Message
This is almost as bad as them killing off Halaster. I demand a trilogy to cover the details!
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  21:38:19  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I concur. They can't just throw that in there without even a hint of explanation! And you're right kilvan, I forgot about that. I must have gotten the two mixed up. It happens. And not to put too fine a point on it dennis, but- Duh. Of course it's their nature. They're drow, after all.... LOL!!And I still hold that Triel was more evil, even if her sister did kill her. She just got careless, is all. Evil doesn't mean infallible, after all. Part of why I think that is how she tried to trap Liriel into the clerical school- that is just all kinds of evil!!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  21:46:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Which all goes to prove that nothing any NPC did, and certainly nothing any PC did, ever changed anything.

Had more here, but whatever... does it really matter anymore?

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  22:05:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I concur. They can't just throw that in there without even a hint of explanation! And you're right kilvan, I forgot about that. I must have gotten the two mixed up. It happens. And not to put too fine a point on it dennis, but- Duh. Of course it's their nature. They're drow, after all.... LOL!!And I still hold that Triel was more evil, even if her sister did kill her. She just got careless, is all. Evil doesn't mean infallible, after all. Part of why I think that is how she tried to trap Liriel into the clerical school- that is just all kinds of evil!!



"Not to put too fine a point on it," Alystra, but - Duh! Of course evil is fallible. Even evil deities are, so how much more are their "toys."

As to Triel forcing Liriel to study in AT, well, that's what Quenthel would have also done had the decision been hers to make.

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Dracons
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USA
299 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  22:12:24  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by dracons

I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books.



At her current status, it's unlikely she'll rise to Archvillainess. She's just a fighter, albeit a pretty excellent one. She has to learn magic first.



Why? Why does an archvillainess need magic? She did plenty of taken over with just her wits. She's destroyed wizards solo without really even trying. She has perfect control over others.

Not all archvillains are magic only.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2010 :  22:26:48  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by dracons

I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books.



At her current status, it's unlikely she'll rise to Archvillainess. She's just a fighter, albeit a pretty excellent one. She has to learn magic first.



Why? Why does an archvillainess need magic? She did plenty of taken over with just her wits. She's destroyed wizards solo without really even trying. She has perfect control over others.

Not all archvillains are magic only.



Why need magic? Goodness, in a world that is awash with magic, it is the greatest advantage one has over those who cannot wield it. Can you name a fighter that is at the same time an archvillain, has done evil feats and is as long-staying as Tam, Larloch or Manshoon?

Try replacing Alassra with a fighter and let's see what will Thay make of Aglarond.

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