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 Why not an Arch-villainess? [potential SPOILERS]
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:44:24  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

Well, reedit your title then, and add those to your OP rather then just leave it open for any other archvillain that isn't a magic user.




Is this a MOD's demand?

No, I won't edit it. It's useless for the very same reason I mentioned as a reply to your scroll above. Or would you like me to re-post it?


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Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 22:46:13
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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:48:54  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
Repost it then. Because this should be a thread on all female archvillains, but then as more and more nonmagic users go on, you refuse to put it in your options, and going NO NO NO NO, only magic users!!! Magic users are the best villains! Any nonmagic villain can never be archvillian! It hurts me brain too much to think of archvillain in other then sterotypes! So yeah, the more it goes on, and the more and more rules you tap on that should have been clearly told in your OP, then yeah, it will be fine.

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Edited by - Dracons on 06 Jul 2010 22:49:54
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:54:39  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
Oops, you seemed to misunderstand what it is that I asked to re-post. It's not the entire topic, pal. It's my reply to your previous scroll. Okay, just see below...

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Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jul 2010 22:56:13
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  22:55:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dracons

Best way to avoid it all, would have been if he had used Why not an Magic Using Arch-Villainess. Then it would be just magic users, as compared to Arch-Villainess, which can be anything, from bards to wizards. Even commoners.



Not a guarantee that some will not say something like "Why magic-users only when fighters have much potential?" Besides, this is a FORUM. So people can say almost anything. Which reminds of that topic I created where some digressed and it even got locked by mods because some people, excluding yours truly , could not pour water in their flaming hearts, so to speak.(Just in case you haven't visited that scroll, it's entitled TELAMONT AND THE SIMBUL. Though I don't recommend a visit there.)

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5336 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  23:20:26  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message
Shaaan the Serpent Queen.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  23:39:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Haven't heard about her. What books featured her?


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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2010 :  23:44:32  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
All I ask is for another option. Even OTHER would suffice, other then your nonstop list of magic users.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  00:46:13  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

"Others" being an option is already implied. If people don't see their bet in the list, then they just have to write it...

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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  01:55:39  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message
Not in the poll though. So numbers are skrewed as it only applies to the ones you pick, rather then what others pick. If you had OTHERS as an option, then yeah, it be fine. But write in's don't count in final numbers on a poll that doesn't have option.


Not all people belive that MAGIC USER equals MOST AWESOME villains EVER!!! Like you do.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  02:19:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Better make your own poll, then.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  02:34:26  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Shaaan the Serpent Queen.

-- George Krashos
Typical. *smirk*
quote:
Originally posted by dennis


Haven't heard about her. What books featured her?
See the "Wizards Three" article in DRAGON #219. And, also, Krash wrote her up in Volume IV of the Candlekeep Compendium.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  10:49:30  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message


Thanks, Sage. As always, quick response!


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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  14:39:02  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Well said, Red Walker!


Thanks....even sometimes my opinion can be right



YOur opinion is just that, your opinion. That someone else is of the same opinion does not necessarily make it "right", only proves that you two are of the same opinion. BTW, being "wicked" and "evil" may be morally "wrong", much like being a "villain", but it does not say that you are mad or deranged.

As for Quenthel Baenre and her dealings with Triel ...
quote:
Her predecessor’s cavernous audience chamber at the top of the mound was sealed at Quenthel’s orders—with the rotting corpse of her sister entombed within.

(FRCG p. 229)

... sounds rather definite for me.

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!

In memory of Alura Durshavin.

Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  17:34:47  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
For what my opinion is worth, I think the OP's greater point--that the "big bads" in the 4e FR tend to be male rather than female--is definitely valid. Whether you need magic to be an arch-villain is a secondary discussion, and I don't think it needs to be reflected in the title of the scroll.

Then again, maybe that's the direction the OP wants to go. In that case, by all means!

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3543 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  18:26:59  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Well said, Red Walker!


Thanks....even sometimes my opinion can be right



YOur opinion is just that, your opinion. That someone else is of the same opinion does not necessarily make it "right", only proves that you two are of the same opinion. BTW, being "wicked" and "evil" may be morally "wrong", much like being a "villain", but it does not say that you are mad or deranged.



No that in of itself does not prove it right, but the test of time and cold hard facts do make it right. Its very convienient to remove morality and look at things in a vacuum....but that's not how things really work. (RW or in the Realms) What true Arch-Villains have there ever been who totally sane and rational to any but themselves or those that follow or admire them?
I think you would be hard pressed to find many authorotative voices who would claim someone who is a true Villain, is not damaged in some way. Villains are not just people who make different choices than the rest of us.
If being a Villain was just a series of simple choices and independant of morality wouldn't nigh upon %50 of those in the realms be Villainous? The percentage of Villains just doesnt bear that out. There are just a handful in Faerun and the vast majority are not.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Jul 2010 18:29:41
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2010 :  18:29:38  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I'm with dracons on this one. No offense, but you seem to think that the only EFFECTIVE arch-villains are all magic-users, and that simply isn't true, as we've seen plenty of examples who were not, both male and female alike. Your arguement is just too thin, I'm afraid. But if that's how you want to run your games, that's your perogative- but you're truly missing out on a LOT of potential that way! To take a few NON-FR cases, nearly ALL the super-villains in comic books, particularly Marvel and DC, are non-magic-users, and many have no powers at all, just a lot of toys and gimmicks to aid in their schemes, or a criminal organization behind them. So to say that only someone with the power to blast you with a fireball or whatever can make a good arch-villain is extremely short-sighted, at best. Even a high-level fighter with a good magic weapon or a criminal mastermind with an extended network of spies and assassins can harry a nation- or several- to no end. And even moreso if they stick around for a while, which many do simply because they are so hard to get to!

Edit: I would have voted for Triel in any case, but I agree that some option for "other" needs to be in the poll.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 07 Jul 2010 18:36:28
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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2010 :  09:23:43  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

For what my opinion is worth, I think the OP's greater point--that the "big bads" in the 4e FR tend to be male rather than female--is definitely valid. Whether you need magic to be an arch-villain is a secondary discussion, and I don't think it needs to be reflected in the title of the scroll.

Cheers



Well, generally, the bulk of the major (and not-so-major) players in AD&D and 3E were males too. Only recently I had a look into Mysteries of the Moonsea and was baffled by the lack of females in there (i.e. descriptions of the organisations et al). Essentially, the drow realms (below the surface) and Dambrath apart, hardly any realm back then had a significant female percentage (1-2 in 10 at best) among the rulers and would-be-rulers. And we all know what 4E did to Dambrath ...

And to think that most drow players want nothing more than to rebel against and throw down the "vile tyranny" of the (female) rulers of the drow shows you what sort of thinking is being harboured by the players and thus being catered by the designers.

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!

In memory of Alura Durshavin.

Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2010 :  15:19:11  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

As for Quenthel Baenre and her dealings with Triel ...
quote:
Her predecessor’s cavernous audience chamber at the top of the mound was sealed at Quenthel’s orders—with the rotting corpse of her sister entombed within.

(FRCG p. 229)... sounds rather definite for me.

Heh, well, then I withdraw my point. (Unless of course in your game or in some future novel/product Triel turns out to have faked her death, because Quenthel might well have just "put it about" that Triel perished . . . and then sealed the chamber to keep inquiring eyes out. You know--just sayin'!)

As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2010 :  16:40:30  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie


As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)

Cheers
[/quote]

LOL!! I agree. As an aspiring writer (are you reading this WotC? I'm available!!) I like to include a lot of female charachters into my stories, both as heroes and villains. One of my best villains is a hlaf-drow wizard/assassin named Morganna bloodbane. (whom some of you who visit the inn may have heard of from her half-brother...) I love writing about strong females- call it a hold-over from my days of watching Xena and reading Red Sonya(which I still do), I guess. Those types of characters have influenced me a lot over the years. And let's be honest- the fantasy genre in general, and not JUST FR, needs more good female characters!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2010 :  18:51:59  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie


As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)

Cheers



LOL!! I agree. As an aspiring writer (are you reading this WotC? I'm available!!) I like to include a lot of female charachters into my stories, both as heroes and villains. One of my best villains is a hlaf-drow wizard/assassin named Morganna bloodbane. (whom some of you who visit the inn may have heard of from her half-brother...) I love writing about strong females- call it a hold-over from my days of watching Xena and reading Red Sonya(which I still do), I guess. Those types of characters have influenced me a lot over the years. And let's be honest- the fantasy genre in general, and not JUST FR, needs more good female characters!
[/quote]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Good thing there's drow underneath Faerun...

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/

Edited by - Zireael on 08 Jul 2010 18:53:29
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3543 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2010 :  19:26:16  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Zanan

As for Quenthel Baenre and her dealings with Triel ...
quote:
Her predecessor’s cavernous audience chamber at the top of the mound was sealed at Quenthel’s orders—with the rotting corpse of her sister entombed within.

(FRCG p. 229)... sounds rather definite for me.

Heh, well, then I withdraw my point. (Unless of course in your game or in some future novel/product Triel turns out to have faked her death, because Quenthel might well have just "put it about" that Triel perished . . . and then sealed the chamber to keep inquiring eyes out. You know--just sayin'!)

As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)

Cheers



And that's sexist too.....who don't ya do some "nice" outfits for Shodowbane?

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2010 :  20:32:19  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
Sexist, maybe, but oh so true! But yeah, you're right Zireal, (psst, it sounds like "cereal" when you read it, LOL!!) it IS a good thing there are drow to balance out all those sexist males! *wink*

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

294 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2010 :  23:51:35  Show Profile  Visit Brace Cormaeril's Homepage Send Brace Cormaeril a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan


... sounds rather definite for me.



I was under the impression that Triel Baenre became undead sometime between 1385 and 1479. Is there some canon which violates this?

The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2010 :  04:22:17  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I'm with dracons on this one. No offense, but you seem to think that the only EFFECTIVE arch-villains are all magic-users, and that simply isn't true, as we've seen plenty of examples who were not, both male and female alike. Your arguement is just too thin, I'm afraid. But if that's how you want to run your games, that's your perogative- but you're truly missing out on a LOT of potential that way! To take a few NON-FR cases, nearly ALL the super-villains in comic books, particularly Marvel and DC, are non-magic-users, and many have no powers at all, just a lot of toys and gimmicks to aid in their schemes, or a criminal organization behind them. So to say that only someone with the power to blast you with a fireball or whatever can make a good arch-villain is extremely short-sighted, at best. Even a high-level fighter with a good magic weapon or a criminal mastermind with an extended network of spies and assassins can harry a nation- or several- to no end. And even moreso if they stick around for a while, which many do simply because they are so hard to get to!

Edit: I would have voted for Triel in any case, but I agree that some option for "other" needs to be in the poll.



I find it rather tiring to repeat myself. I believe I already made myself clear why I deem it necessary that for an archvillainess to succeed, influence or cause Realms-wide changes, and hope to stay for awhile, she has to POSSESS magic, be it Weave-based or divine; and why I intentionally did NOT include "others" as an option in the poll. (Read my replies to dracons and others.) Now if you find that difficult to understand, I see no reason why I should make it my problem.


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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2010 :  04:44:04  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie


As for the predominance of male characters over female characters--what can I say? Personally as a writer and designer, I make equal representation a priority, but that's just me. There's more variety of story and characterization that way . . . and villain-esses always get the better outfits anyway. :)

Cheers



LOL!! I agree. As an aspiring writer (are you reading this WotC? I'm available!!) I like to include a lot of female charachters into my stories, both as heroes and villains. One of my best villains is a hlaf-drow wizard/assassin named Morganna bloodbane. (whom some of you who visit the inn may have heard of from her half-brother...) I love writing about strong females- call it a hold-over from my days of watching Xena and reading Red Sonya(which I still do), I guess. Those types of characters have influenced me a lot over the years. And let's be honest- the fantasy genre in general, and not JUST FR, needs more good female characters!



I agree with you wholeheartedly. Good thing there's drow underneath Faerun...
[/quote]

Better outfits? I think not always. Well, for one, most of my male characters, heroes and villains alike, are as fashionable as my females. Of course, outfits, like dialogue, most often have to synchronize with the characters' disposition.

As to the predominance of male villains, an editor/friend told me that such happens because most people still have that (twisted?) notion that women are always softer in heart compared to men. The toughness of men is their ticket to villainy. I say that's BS. How many females are there that are as tough or tougher than the males? I can't even imagine Lallara, Quenthel, or Triel possessing even a mote of kindness.


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