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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 11:22:15
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I'm working on a BG2 mod that develops the NPC Yoshimo. According the the novelization of Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn by Philip Athans, Yoshimo hails from Kozakura. So in conceiving a backstory for him I'm studying up on his homeland in the source book Kara-Tur. (Note: I want the lore to be 2nd ed. AD&D, not from later editions.)
I'm trying to decide how much of the cultural information presented in the section on Wa may be assumed to apply also to Kozakura. What do you all think?
Wa and Kozakura both transparently transpose ancient Japan to the Forgotten realms. In both we have samurai, shoguns, ninjas, ronins, etc. In the section on Wa the source book provides a lot more material on culture and social organization. Kozakura is located right next to Wa. The material on Kozakura's culture social organization focuses mostly on its shogunate governmental history, and the role of architecture in its society. Religion is virtually the same in both lands.
For those of you who have the Kara-Tur source book, do you think that the sections on Wa's Social Order, Village Order, and Family Order may be said to apply equally to Kozakura? I'm thinking that material would apply, since the two sets of islands are right next to one another geographically and the two nations share just about every major cultural feature. But what do you all think?
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Edited by - Lemernis on 19 Nov 2008 13:05:16
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2008 : 14:59:35
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| You may find some information on the countries in two modules in the download section at Wizards: OA6 and OA7 are two connected modules which involve those countries (although I dont remember how much). The other oriental adventure (OA 5 Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw) is one of my all time favorites and may help with some "flavour tips" ... especially the list of "rule no.1"s and the ways to learn martial arts fighting. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 19 Nov 2008 15:00:48 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 13:58:02
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My apologies, I'm probably making it seem like I'm asking a broader question than I really intended.
The specific question is:
Is it safe to assume that Kara-Tur's sections on Wa's Social Order, Village Order, and Family Order apply equally to Kozakura? |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Nov 2008 17:31:29 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 17:41:51
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-I would personally say no, though there may be some similarities. While they are both based off of Japan during different time periods, both nations developed differently in Kara-Tur, and, of course, are different geographically. Kozakura, for example, is slightly closer to Koryo than Wa is, so Koroyan culture may have rubbed off more in Kozakura than in Wa. Similarly, Wa is slightly closer to Shou Lung than Kozakura, so their culture is likely to have diffused into Wa moreso than in Kozakura.
-So, at the end of the day, though TSR didn't give us differences, I would say that they do exist, in certain niches of culture more so than others. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 20 Nov 2008 17:42:47 |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 18:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I would personally say no, though there may be some similarities. While they are both based off of Japan during different time periods, both nations developed differently in Kara-Tur, and, of course, are different geographically. Kozakura, for example, is slightly closer to Koryo than Wa is, so Koroyan culture may have rubbed off more in Kozakura than in Wa. Similarly, Wa is slightly closer to Shou Lung than Kozakura, so their culture is likely to have diffused into Wa moreso than in Kozakura.
-So, at the end of the day, though TSR didn't give us differences, I would say that they do exist, in certain niches of culture more so than others.
I'd say that Wa is a far more hierarchial culture than Kozakura, for one thing, with rather less tolerance for oddballs who don't fit in (which could give your character a great reason to leave the place!).
And talking about Korean Koryan influence on Japan Kozakura... hoo boy. I hope we can mention RL stuff here but never mention that aroudn anyone who's actually FROM one of those two nations. It'll get ugly, fast.
(Talking about drow influence on gold elf culture, now... ;) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 19:09:38
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They represent Feudal Japan during different time periods, so yeah, pretty close in culture.
You'll note that the Wa article in the boxed set conforms much more acurately to REAL Japanese culture and traditions, whereas the Kozakuran one is based - I believe - on western beliefs about Feudal Japan. The author of the Wa section, IMHO, did his homework, whereas the other author, I think, wasn't as well-researched.
Why do I feel that way? The Wa author used the correct term 'Seppuku' for ritual suicide, whereas the Kozakuran author used the historically innacurate 'Hari-Kiri' (Hari-Kiri is a colloquial term used to describe a specific form). So I think one was writen from a more realistic point-of-view, while the other was based on old movies and western misconceptions.
The culture of both Islands, along with Koryo, originated with the Han people who migrated up and around the Koryoan penninsula and eventually to the islands. This is why they are canonically similar.
Hope that helps. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Nov 2008 19:10:40 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 19:18:26
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The following is the material in question. Again, this is what given for Wa. Unfortunately the book's section on Kozakura has nothing to say on the same subjects:
quote:
From Kara-Tur, The Eastern Realms, Volume II, pp 174-176, by Rick Swan, 1988; TSR product 1032:
Social Order
The class system of Wa is rigid and strictly observed. Although the system is not specifically enforced by law, each group enjoys privileges and greater status than those below it. Since successive generations of the same family are generally locked into the same class, a child's status is determined at birth. A village may have as many as 100. It is rare for a citizen to achieve a status higher than the one he had at birth, but it is not unheard of, especially for those who find favor with the ruling class.
Lords. These are the members of the ruling class who exert total control over the rest of the populace. The absolute monarch is theoretically the emperor, but in practice is the shogun, with the emperor relegated to ceremonial duties and having no real power. The daimyo are samurai with authority over specific regions or provinces. Other members of this class include the counselors and administrators of the shogunate along with other principal officers of the realm.
Shi. These are the soldiers and warriors who answer directly to members of the ruling class. In the military state of Wa, shi is the highest rank a citizen of the lower classes can ever reasonably hope to attain.
No. Since agriculture is the backbone of the Wa economy, farmers are the highest class of workers and business-people. Fishermen are also included in this class. Interestingly, farmers are often less affluent than the merchant and artisan classes below them. However, their higher status assures them of access to military protection and preferential treatment in certain legal matters. Wealthy farmers have the highest status within this class, and day laborers have the lowest.
Ko. These are the artisans and craftsmen, including painters, woodworkers, weavers, authors, performers, shipbuilders, and carpenters. Preferential treatment is given to artisans who demonstrate exceptional talent in their area, but the highest status is reserved for those whose skills are military-related.
Sho. These are the merchants and shopkeepers. Their relatively low status reflects society's modest opinion of citizens who neither risk their lives for the protection of others, farm the land, nor create useful items. The most successful merchants have accumulated wealth exceeding the classes above them, sometimes including the ruling class. This inequity fuels resentment and unease, particularly with the samurai who often grudgingly turn to the merchant moneylenders when in need of a loan. Wealth determines status within this class, with the rich businessmen at the top and the poor street peddlers at the bottom.
Eta. These are Wa's outcasts, the poorest and least connected members of society. Hated and scorned by all higher classes, theirs is an existence of misery and destitution. The eta are gravediggers, fish cleaners, and animal renderers, responsible for the work no one else wants to do. Many become criminals. If an eta demonstrates exceptional skill or courage, it is possible he may rise to higher status.
...
Family Order
The family is the basic social unit in the villages of Wa. In addition to the nuclear members (husband, wife, and children), a village family includes relatives, workers, and servants among its members.
Here are the members of the Kamano Muiji family. Muiji is one of the headmen in the village of Utumoi in the province of Fochu.
1 headman
1 wife of headman
2 sons
2 daughters
1 wife of son
1 female servant
1 male servant
2 workers
2 wives of workers
2 daughters of workers
1 father of wife
1 mother of wife
The family also has two oxen and three horses. Their farm is valued at 50 koku.
Like the other social orders of Wa, family status is explicit and inflexible. The man of the house (the headman in the example above) is the absolute authority and requires complete submission from the rest of the household. Just below him is the oldest son.
After him, status falls off rapidly, with all other males clustered near the bottom, barely above the female family members. The sole exception is the head of the family's father-in-law, who may occasionally be consulted in matters specifically pertaining to him.
Younger siblings of the oldest son can find life to be harsh. In difficult times, these children may be forced to accept substandard food and clothing rather than deny the eldest son. Because of their extravagant lifestyles, samurai have an especially difficult time providing for extra children. Many samurai children suffer poverty within the walls of a lavish home. Some are adopted out. Others are turned into the streets to make their own way.
Women are expected to submit to their husbands and to males in general. A wife's primary function is to bear children, her secondary functions are to attend to her husband, children, and home. Wives are rarely able to initiate divorce, but husbands have no difficulty. Barrenness, disease, and laziness are sufficient grounds for divorce. If his status is sufficiently high, a husband can announce mikudari-han, a public declaration that he no longer wishes to be married. In this case, his divorce is effective immediately. In spite of their second class status, a woman's life is not necessarily one of misery. Males are taught from childhood the necessity of respecting women, and allowing harm to befall one's wife or daughter is a grave assault to the family honor. A husband who mistreats his wife may find himself the victim of her vengeful brothers.
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Edited by - Lemernis on 21 Nov 2008 12:53:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 19:28:58
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I would apply it to both.
Both nations were at one time just groups of small, 'petty-Kingdoms', each run by a local Lord. At that point in time there was no Wa or Kozakura, and I'm sure (reading through some of the history) that at certain times in the past pieces of each belonged to the other, and several individuals - both Shogun and early Emperors - have tried to unite the rest of the 'Han Lands' under one regime.
It's one culture divided into two Kingdoms, similar to certain Western countries like Cormyr and Impiltur, or Amn and Tethyr. Over time some differences have emerged, but not enough for anyone to consider them a different racial stock.
You know, this has given me a new perspective on how to write some missing history.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Nov 2008 22:02:46 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 20:23:06
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| Doesn't Kozakura seem almost superfluous? Maybe felt they they had too much material to fit into one land? Anyway, I'm not sure I see the point of two nearly identical nations sitting side by side. Even if they are representing different periods in Japan's history. Most of the material for Kozakura is about its shogunate history and tensions between clans, and I'm not sure that differentiates it enough from Wa to be worth the trouble. (Amn's and Tethyr's differences by comparison are very great, imho.) |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Nov 2008 20:53:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 22:09:58
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| Citation added above. (I don't see an author listed anywhere on the pdf product.) |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Nov 2008 22:29:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 23:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Citation added above. (I don't see an author listed anywhere on the pdf product.)
That's fine. Though, in the future, it would be better if it wasn't quite so large a chunk of text. Per section B3 of the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct:
quote:
3. Avoid posting large amounts of text quoted directly from WotC products. If you feel the need to do so, please keep the amount of text to a minimum (a couple of paragraphs at the most) and place the text within the Quote box (use the quote icon on the posting toolbar above the text area), stating the product title and page number from which the text was taken.
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 00:57:29
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Okay, ammended above and thanks for letting me keep it that size in this instance. In the future I'll make sure to limit the size of quoted material. I was worried I wouldn't get a response re: the specific info, so I figured I'd throw caution to the winds and post it.
Now, please, everyone go buy Kara-Tur! |
Edited by - Lemernis on 21 Nov 2008 00:58:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 01:52:43
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Wa was written by Rick Swan (individual authors are listed in the credits on the first page).
My material was derived from extrapolation, mostly from the Koryo article in that same boxed set (the language stuff and some of the history gets into the background of the Han people). Nothing specificaly quoted - just a bunch of assumptions made from my research.
And, as always, you should never feel limited by the canon - if it doesn't suit your needs, CHANGE IT!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 10:47:48
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Thanks Mark. That's weird that all the authors are credited on the first page of volume II, 97 pages into the book.
Agree re: the approach to canon that you put forth. I've used it myself in writing up a lot of lore for Amn in a NWN2 persistent world, where the setting follows a different outcome than canon, starting from the late fall of 1370 DR onward; although it's additional nuance and new material that are both thoughtfully extrapolated from Lands of Intrigue.
Here I want to keep with canon as much as I can because we're making a computer game mod that details a canon character. Same idea as with the PW, i.e., we're extrapolating our own custom content as faithfully as possible from what is known or can reasonably be surmised about Yoshimo, both within the game (which is not canon, but it's the vehicle the players are using) and from the BG2 novel and FR source books such as Kara-Tur.
***
Another Kara-Turan question:
Is it wildly implausible that a female can be accepted into a ninja society anywhere in Kara-Tur (among all its lands)? Given the social prejudices against women, that is.
From what I'm reading on the net about Japan's real ninjas, females were in fact employed and often worked as spies/assassins by posing as household servants or seductresses. (And to use women as such makes perfect sense, given the clandestine nature and guerilla tactics of those societies.) And I do see in the Kara-Tur source book's section on Kozakura that a prominent member of Kozakura's main ninja family is a female (Konishi Seichi; wu jen 7th level/ninja 14th level). However of all the NPC ninjas listed in both volumes of Kara-Tur, only two are female (the other a Shou barbarian/ninja who trained by pretending to be a male). Anyway, it seems like it might be relatively rare for a woman to become a ninja, but not out of the question. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 21 Nov 2008 13:10:48 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 14:20:57
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| I don't know if Kara-tur follows in the tradition of sexually discrimination. Or at least, I don't recall reading anything that states that it does... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 15:01:04
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See the above post on Family Order from the section on Wa in the source book Kara-Tur. For easy reference here it is again (citation given already above):
quote:
Women are expected to submit to their husbands and to males in general. A wife's primary function is to bear children, her secondary functions are to attend to her husband, children, and home. Wives are rarely able to initiate divorce, but husbands have no difficulty. Barrenness, disease, and laziness are sufficient grounds for divorce. If his status is sufficiently high, a husband can announce mikudari-han, a public declaration that he no longer wishes to be married. In this case, his divorce is effective immediately. In spite of their second class status, a woman's life is not necessarily one of misery. Males are taught from childhood the necessity of respecting women, and allowing harm to befall one's wife or daughter is a grave assault to the family honor. A husband who mistreats his wife may find himself the victim of her vengeful brothers.
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Edited by - Lemernis on 21 Nov 2008 15:05:54 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 20:39:54
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One of the MAJOR differences between Kara-Tur and our own RW Oriental cultures is that there is far more equality present, probably due in no small part to the Shou interlopers. Not like it is in our modern world, but much more so then we saw just a mere century ago.
The only two exceptions to that are the Tuigan and Wa - this is one of the few areas that seperatee Wa from Kozakura. I can see females as Ninjas EVERYWHERE but Wa in K-T. There own chauvanism handicaps one of their best assests - their Ninja.
Koza Ninja are probably (my own take, nothing canon) run by females. Because the rest of that society is still male-oriented, Females would naturally not be put into positions with a lot of fighting; they would be used in more 'cerebral' ways, as spies and what-not. That, over time, would push Intelligent Women into positions of power within the Ninja Clans, although the clan-head would still most-likely be male. There are at least two canon instances where females run Yakuza Gangs in K-T (lucy Lui eat your heart out), which would never have happened in RW (or perhaps it did, but it would have been an exception, not a rule).
Also, as part of my Homebrew material, I strive to make each country unique, so I have it where the mainland Ninja are more along the lines of those in Naruto (minus all the silliness, of course), wheras the Island-Ninja are much more secretive and based closer on their RW-counterparts. Ergo, Shou has several visible schools for Ninjutsu, and is treated like any other martial occupation. T'u Lung will probably have at least one like that (that place is ripe for Intrigue-types) as well. On the Islands and Koryo Ninja will only be discussed in hushed whispers, and never in polite company. Its considered a 'taboo' subject there, and people would rather publically deny their existance then speak of them (this is even more evident in the Koryo material). This, of course, leads to to the Island Ninja sneering at the mainland Ninja schools, feeling as if those are not 'true Ninja' (which makes some sense - China didn't have Ninja).
About Society - after the Tuigan War Horde women were treated with more respect, and now it is perfectly exceptable for a women to choose a previously male-only occupation, like warrior. That is all canon, BTW, from the excellent Dragon #349 article. They Tuigan are a clever lot, and they learned from the Westerners - Princess Alusair beat one of their best - General Batu.
Now we should apply that to the Shou as well - they are even more clever then the Tuigan, and it makes sense that the Emperor took note that the Westerners beat the Tuigan with a force a fifth the size of his own (and HE lost, mostly)! In my homebrew stuff, I have it where the Emperor has sent out emissaries (like in that novel) to various Western groups and countries, inviting them to Shou to share their ideas and open up trade. This has gone over well, and with the opening of an Aurora Outlet in Kuo Te' Lung, women are becoming more and more involved in commerce and manufacture, as well as more intellectual persuits (Note: Shou women always had opportunities within the bureaucracy, and some had even been Mandarins!) Of course, this also paved the way for no less then three Thayan Enclaves setting up shop in the east, but the K-T people do not have past predjudices to guide them in these things. This paragraph is HOMEBREW - except for the part about female Mandarins - so I don't want it to get confused with the canon stuff I used above.
--- Mark |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2008 20:53:57 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 21:07:34
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Of course, you can also just toss canon out the window. One of my favorite characters was a female Samurai from Wa. She was a peasant girl, but at a very early age one of the samurai masters noticed her prodigal skill in war and sponsored her training. By eighteen, she had clawed her way to be one of the emperor's elite bodyguards.
Of course, the story goes on involving how a ancient artifact sword was stolen from the emperor's vaults and he sent his eight best samurai out to find it (one for each of the cardinal and intermediate points) and she happened to draw due West. Which is how she wound up in Baldur's Gate, on the trail of a ruthless samurai and in the company of a band of adventurers whose own goals coincided with her own. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 21:34:20
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There are exceptions to every rule, and what are PCs besides the definition of 'exceptional'?
And as you say, canon has ALWAYS been an option (I'm biting my tongue here...), so DMs can ignore whatever doesn't work for them.
Besides, there are exceptions in the canon as well - women have always had a better place on Toril then in our RW. Whereas here it was impossible for them to get anywhere and taken seriously, in the Realms they just had to try twice as hard as a man... (you know the rest).  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 22:57:14
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The only thing I ever had solid in my mind as a difference between Wa and Kozakura is that Wa seemed to be much more human oriented with fewer demi-humans.
I don't know if that is an accurate picture though... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2008 : 23:41:58
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Thats also correct, good catch. I had forgotten about that - the differences are subtle, but they are there. Although both are totalitarian Gov'ts under Shogunates with the Emperor having very little real power, the Wanite(?) Nobility truly look down at the lower classes like slaves, and care not a wit about their lives, other then as a source of tax income. Kozakura has the same fuedal set-up, but their people are more like serfs - little difference, really, but at least the people of Koza have some slight ability to control their own destinies - they can move to a new district and start-over if their Lord is a creep. In Wa, the peasants are not allwed to do anything or go anywhere without permission. So one is somewhat more 'enlightened' then the other.
Wa is ripe for some major Bane-worship. 
Also, I forgot to mention in my small canon bit above from the Dragon article - The Red Knight has become THE major religion of the Tuigan (at least it's the 'state religion' of Yaimmunahar, anyway), with a temple in Kourmira - the Kahan himself is a big-time follower. That has helped immensely with women becoming warriors (they all used bows before, its just that now they are allowed to ride horses as well).
The times, they are a'changing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2008 13:06:29 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 00:01:13
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Another question:
Given the description of family order for Wa (and Kozakura?)
quote:
Younger siblings of the oldest son can find life to be harsh. In difficult times, these children may be forced to accept substandard food and clothing rather than deny the eldest son. Because of their extravagant lifestyles, samurai have an especially difficult time providing for extra children. Many samurai children suffer poverty within the walls of a lavish home. Some are adopted out. Others are turned into the streets to make their own way.
do you see any reason to think that younger siblings would feel compelled to commit seppuku before they would leave home?
I'm not seeing that. Although the book does say of Wa's samurai that they are highly honor bound and inclined to commit seppuku if they feel they have disgraced themselves. Unfortuantely, the section on Kozakura doesn't elaborate if there are any differences to its own samurai culture. (Presumably it is then the same as Wa's.)
Judging from the description of how they are treated, one would think that 'extra' male children in a samurai family would be denied the opportunity to receive samurai training. Would not a number of these youth in fact then readily leave home and strike out on their own; and in some cases join yakuza (criminal gangs)? The source book states that Kozakura's yakuzas have only recently appeared in the society, they are "loosely organized and growing," and offer enterprising adventurers "much opportunity... to shape and create an organization from scratch." Anyway, I do not see it as categorical that these younger children will kill themselves. In this regard, perhaps there is a bit more flexibility to Kozakuran culture that real world historical Japan (i.e. with respect to family honor, loss of face, overall rigidity of the family and class structure, and so on).
But please advise if you see it otherwise, thanks. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 25 Nov 2008 09:48:33 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 05:00:13
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The "feel" that I always got was that Kozakura was a bit more "adventurer friendly" than Wa, since Wa was always very much concerned with curfews and limiting travel and being very paranoid about outsiders. Its not that the Shogunate didn't have a lot of power in Kozakura, but Wa seemed to be lawful with a capital L (not to mention, they were mean to the poor Chaunteans).
But that could have just been the feel that I got. Just like Shou Lung was kind of the "Good to Neutral" mythical China, and T'u Lung was the "Neutral to Evil" mythical China, I kind of felt like Wa was the stereotypical "tyrannical samurai" Japan from folklore, and Kozakura was the "anything goes" Japan. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 06:40:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
do you see any reason to think that younger siblings would feel compelled to commit seppku before they would leave home?
Nope. Seppuku, as I understand it*, is a way for those who have failed in their duty and/or been seriously shamed to regain their honor. A child is not going to have the opportunity to commit a serious enough blunder to need to commit seppuku.
According to Wikipedia, only samurai could commit seppuku, and they had to ask permission.
*Note that I am far from being an expert on things Japanese. I just like some aspects of their entertainment industry. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 10:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
do you see any reason to think that younger siblings would feel compelled to commit seppku before they would leave home?
Nope. Seppuku, as I understand it*, is a way for those who have failed in their duty and/or been seriously shamed to regain their honor. A child is not going to have the opportunity to commit a serious enough blunder to need to commit seppuku.
According to Wikipedia, only samurai could commit seppuku, and they had to ask permission.
*Note that I am far from being an expert on things Japanese. I just like some aspects of their entertainment industry.
Yeah, if the youngest "extra" children in a samurai family are treated so poorly to begin with that are denied food and clothing, "adopted out," or literally "turned out into the streets," then as far as I can see they clearly will not have samurai status. Only samurai can commit seppuku. And one would think only the eldest male children will be given the opportunity to become a samurai.
Not everyone in the military is a samurai, evidently, at least in real world feudal Japan. Perhaps younger sons might have an opportunity to become rank and file soldiers. In Wa (and presumably also Kozakura) these are apparently the Shi class, although the source book doesn't delineate a rank hierarchy within the military class. I'm not sure how much should reasonably carry over from real world historical Japanese derivations, as even when real world inspirations are so transparent as in a subsetting like this, the location should always be given its own uniquely 'Realmsian' feel. But I think it is safe to assume that the miltary has different ranks, with samurai at the top and rank and file at the bottom. Anyway, this site outlines the military hierarchy of feudal Japan. Not that I would transpose that material 1:1, but I would think that there are at least different ranks within the Kozakuran military structure.
Also, evidently seppuku isn't exactly commonplace even for samurai, because then arguably there would be no ronin, right?
It is considered an honor to perform seppuku. In the section on Yarujima (a Kozakuran island) the book explains that "powerful people out of favor with the government" are banished there in order to deny them "an honorable death by hari-kiri." |
Edited by - Lemernis on 25 Nov 2008 12:09:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 13:25:07
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It depends, though.
When I read that, I get the idea that that is not applicable to all Samurai families. Most would have enough money for the entire family to live 'well' - only those noble families that had little wealth would be put in that position in the first place.
So I can see the 'bottom tier' of the nobility - those without large estates and small fortunes - using what little they have to 'showcase' the "#1 son". Rather then be embarrassed by their comparitivly small wealth, they would put everything into just the family heads (father and first son). In America we have something called 'keeping up with the Jonses', and this is a similar situation.
But whereas in America people will put themselves deep into debt just to be able to flaunt the same things as their peers, these samurai family would just make the rest of the family suffer to 'show off'.
Truly Wealthy families (which would probably be a fairly large percentage, I would imagine) wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket that way - if the eldest son dies for whatever reason, they are going to need a back-up - maybe even several considering the violent times they are living in.
Thats just my take, though, since we don't have much to go on, and I'm also no expert on RW Oriental cultures (everything I know is due to researching Kara-Tur and looking for RW info to fill-in the gaps).
And considering the other differences in culture between the two islands - slight as they are - I would also say that that situation is far more likely to be present in Wa then Kozakura, but once again thats just my opinion - Koza just seems 'Cozyier'.
One last thing - I'm fairly certain their are instances of Children commiting suicide in Japanese culture; they are taught from a very early age about honor and tradition, and if they felt they were bringing their family down somehow, I can see a seven-year-old killing himself in order for the rest of the family to 'be better off'. I could definately see that happening (although VERY rarely) before them 'running off to join the circus' or whatever. If they join Yakuza Gangs, that could dishonor their family, and I'm just not feeling that for this situation (although anything is possible, and it's probably just as likely as them committing suicide, I suppose).
Depends on how much honor and tradition they bothered to instill in the kid - if they just ignored him to concentrate on the older sibling, then I can see him turning resentful and wanting to dishonor his family by becoming yakuza. Ergo, I'd say its a case-by-case basis here, with every family being different (I guess being 'disfunctional' isn't all that new, or even the province of just RW).
The other thing that effects all of that as well is that people from Oriental cultures change their names several times during the course of their lives (thats even covered in the K-T material), so a Noble-born child who becomes Yakuza still wouldn't be carrying their family name around. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Nov 2008 14:08:50 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2008 : 22:15:32
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Right, I agree that there would be a spectrum. At one end is the samurai family that is struggling to make ends meet, and the father is a cruel and harsh man. At the other end are samurai families that are doing well enough financially that they provide well for all the children, and the fathers are good, caring human beings who love all their children.
As for younger children from crueler households leaving home, I think it's easy to overlook that the source book states explicitly that they are sometimes actually literally kicked out of the home, to fend for themselves:
quote:
Younger siblings of the oldest son can find life to be harsh. In difficult times, these children may be forced to accept substandard food and clothing rather than deny the eldest son. Because of their extravagant lifestyles, samurai have an especially difficult time providing for extra children. Many samurai children suffer poverty within the walls of a lavish home. Some are adopted out. Others are turned into the streets to make their own way.
Those are the ones I see as easily gravitating towards either the yakuzas or the lower class military.
But do you think I have made a fair assessment of this question about the fates of 'extra' children in the harsher samurai families?
If the book says they are adopted out or put into the streets, it seems unlikely that they're going to be in a position to perfom seppuku; seppuku is a ritual reserved for full fledged samurai that has a very distinct meaning within the culture. I'm not saying that some of those Kozakuran adolescent children from samurai households that are mistreated might not commit suicide. They might. But suicide is different than seppuku. I'm not sure how it was viewed in feudal Japan, but from what I can gather on the subject from the internet, the seppuku ritual is suicide with honor (and the samurai's lord must direct it or give permission for it) whereas mundane suicide is a dishonorable death. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 26 Nov 2008 11:39:40 |
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cultural differences between Kozakura and Wa?
