| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 19:36:58
|
A Timeline of the Spellplague According to Established Canon Lore
I decided to assemble this Spellplague timeline based on canon "Lore Which Has Gone Before" because without a past, you have no foundation for consistency of the future. This, apparently, was "Forgotten" by Fourth Edition Realms designers. So, here is what *really* happened in and after 1385 DR, the Year of Blue Fire:
1385 DR (the Year of Blue Fire)
Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the Astral Plane. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all over Toril (but *not* the surrounding planes; the other planes have different entities responsible for magic) and runs wild, just as it did in 1358 DR (the Year of Shadows) and -339 DR (the Year of Sundered Webs). However, Ao is asleep at the wheel this time around, and does not resurrect Mystra (even a god cannot resurrect herself, despite what the lore says happened in -339, or this would all be moot). In Faerun, this event is known as the Spellplague. The brain of every single (and married  ) arcane spellcaster on the planet explodes just like Scanners, as does every charged magical item. Permanent magical items are unaffected. The Shadow Weave, supported as it is by the structure of the Weave, also collapses despite Shar's best efforts, causing similar effects among shadow magic users. Thultanthar crashes into the Sea of Shadows, exploding as it descends due to the high concentration of shadow magic it represents. Similar explosions happen all across Halruaa, as charged magical items and wizards' heads detonate like land mines.
The cosmology of Toril outside the Material Plane is unaffected, sustained as it is by divine magic and having nothing to do with the arcane Weave. However, by the time Ao sees what is happening, it is too late. The unleashed raw magical energies return the worlds of Toril and Abeiron (sorry, Eberron, um, I mean Abeir) to the same location in space in a devastating cataclysm, causing the complete destruction of both worlds. Elminster, trapped in his safehold and sorely weakened after the attack by the Sharrans and the death of Mystra, is unable to intervene (and likely would have been powerless to do anything anyway) but is spared the effects of the Spellplague that has just destroyed his world. He makes his way to Oerth, where he tells Khelben Junior of what has happened and establishes his own new home.
End of campaign. Shar wins. Shortly thereafter, she discovers just how boring it is to be queen of nothing, and begs her sister Selune to end her darkness forever. Selune, in despair over what has happened, refuses. Shar attempts to take her own life, but is prevented by Ao. This sparks another war between the gods (call it the Dusk Cataclysm, if you like), whose details I won't go into here.
|
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 20 Sep 2008 22:21:26
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 19:44:54
|
| Alternatively, if you want a world left to adventure in, you simply ignore Abeir and have a magic-dead Toril... the perfect setting for a d20 Modern campaign... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
 |
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 22:21:53
|
Oops. Me fixy now. Thanks, Fillow. 
No comment on the scenario?  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 20 Sep 2008 22:25:37 |
|
|
|
Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 09:55:56
|
Oops... I missed something very important according to post-ToT canon...
After a few years, Shar's pleas for oblivion are answered, as she and all of the other Torilian powers (possibly including Ao, if no other worlds in Realmspace have gods) join the "dead god graveyard" on the Astral Plane, except for those who have aspects who are worshipped on other worlds in the Realmspace crystal sphere. If there are any, I don't know; "Realmspace" and all of my other 1E/2E material is a four-hour highway drive away, and I don't think it's a trip I'll be making any time soon. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 21 Sep 2008 09:57:20 |
|
|
|
Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2008 : 03:08:25
|
Perhaps I didn't read the post good enough, but where have you gathered this info (pre-canon/4ed material)???
And Im I understading it correctly, that fearūn more or less siezes to exist??? |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2008 : 03:17:58
|
This is Jakk's frustration to the new Realms. He is using this to express that he'd rather see the Realms die a whimpering death than continue as the 4th Edition Realms.
I don't agree entirely, but I am writing my post-1375 Realms as a world where Shar's plan fails miserably. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2008 : 04:12:58
|
| LOL! my post 1375 DR Realms are quite different too... and Azoun V is a noble youth who does not kick his aunt Alusair out of the castle! |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2008 : 04:59:18
|
Ah! Some discussion! Excellent! Yes, Ashe and PDK, I've done much the same thing.
Re: PDK: Actually, my timeline in Cormyr diverges much earlier than that. Alusair and Tanalasta get married off much earlier, Tanalasta thanks to the Abraxus affair and Alusair thanks to that which she never thought possible... love. Briefly, as a result of these marriages, Westgate is part of Cormyr along with the rest of the Dragon Coast, and the kingdoms of Cormyr and Impiltur would be united by marriage... if the heirs of Impiltur could actually set foot on the lands of their kingdom, which is not possible thanks to the actions of a certain meddling devil. See Champions of Ruin and Champions of Valor for more details. There's more, but this post is getting long enough, and I still have Ashe to respond to...
Re: Ashe: I don't think the Realms died with a whimper at all in my scenario. I think it went out with a bang, just like the Spellplague should have accomplished were it applied with consistency. It was the Torilian *pantheon* that went out with a whimper, thanks to Ao tying their power to the devotion of their worshippers. And I'm doing the same thing you are... actually, in my post-GHotR timeline, Shar's plot actually results in the destruction of the Shadow Weave and her demotion to an intermediate power, to make her and her sister equals again. Oh, and there are a few more evil gods around to compensate, and Bhaal and Myrkul are two of them. In Myrkul's case, it happened by accident thanks to the consequences of Shar's struggle with Mystra, and he's not at all happy about being a god again. :-) (Remember, he ended up *liking* his existence in the Crown of Horns; see other posts on this forum for more info.) Amaunator is still in as the god of the sun, but Lathander is still around as the god of the dawn, sunrise, and beginnings in general. Cyric is still around, and has added dusk and sunset to his portfolio after losing intrigue to Mask, and Tyr is dead, killed by the son of Bhaal who then absorbed Tyr's divine power and underwent apotheosis, becoming his father. Yeah, I know that's been done with Bane already, but Bane didn't have to kill a greater deity to get his godhood back. As for *how* a mortal with a spark of divinity managed to kill a greater deity, let's just say I made it work within the rules of godhood and the capabilities of artifacts... in this particular case, a weapon similar to (but more powerful than) the Sword of Kas. Yes, I had fun with it. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2008 : 05:14:02
|
| The scenario presented in my original post is how I saw things playing out according to the established order of how things work. It is by no means the storyline my group is using... although my gaming group agrees that it should be if we ever decide to "upgrade" to 4.0. Realms 4.0 can best be compared to Dragonlance Saga Edition, imho. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2008 : 23:38:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
LOL! my post 1375 DR Realms are quite different too... and Azoun V is a noble youth who does not kick his aunt Alusair out of the castle!
Well, to be fair, do we know that was the truth of the matter in the official material? IIRC, we just know that Azoun and Alusair had some type of argument, and then Alusair left the scene. She might have made the decision to leave. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 00:16:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
LOL! my post 1375 DR Realms are quite different too... and Azoun V is a noble youth who does not kick his aunt Alusair out of the castle!
Well, to be fair, do we know that was the truth of the matter in the official material? IIRC, we just know that Azoun and Alusair had some type of argument, and then Alusair left the scene. She might have made the decision to leave.
Not only that, but the argument could have been staged for some reason. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 01:55:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
LOL! my post 1375 DR Realms are quite different too... and Azoun V is a noble youth who does not kick his aunt Alusair out of the castle!
Well, to be fair, do we know that was the truth of the matter in the official material? IIRC, we just know that Azoun and Alusair had some type of argument, and then Alusair left the scene. She might have made the decision to leave.
Not only that, but the argument could have been staged for some reason.
True... rooting out opponents to the regime is much easier if said opponents think there is a rift within the ruling family... but I guess we'll never know now, except that we know that the Obarskyrs are still on the throne of Cormyr a hundred-odd years later... a hundred *very* odd years, I might add. 
This scroll's going off-topic, but as its originator, I kinda like the way it's going, so I'll ask the moderators to stand back for the moment. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 29 Sep 2008 01:58:13 |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 07:35:50
|
What? You mean, now that the train's been derailed, everybody's jumping off? Well, fine, then. 
|
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 15:50:39
|
Hey don't worry. It's only been a couple days, Jakk--I've seen threads pause for years before flurrious commentary.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I don't think the Realms died with a whimper at all in my scenario. I think it went out with a bang, just like the Spellplague should have accomplished were it applied with consistency.
Hmm. I think *consistency* is a matter of some debate in this instance, as the Spellplague and the effects flying around therein were nothing that anyone had seen before in the Realms. We only know what happened after Karsus's Avatar because the Realms articulated it for us historically. If that spell were cast again, we'd have some sense of what happened. But in this instance, the Spellplague was something we'd never seen, which took place for reasons that hadn't been exemplified before. Who's to say that anything was consistent or not?
I think that, just on a practical level, WotC applied the Spellplague to the Realms in order to *change* the Realms, not *destroy* them. They wanted a re-envisioned setting, and the Spellplague was their tool. It couldn't, by definition, do anything but what they wanted, because they constructed the tool for specifically this purpose.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
IIRC, we just know that Azoun and Alusair had some type of argument, and then Alusair left the scene. She might have made the decision to leave.
Not only that, but the argument could have been staged for some reason.
Not only that, but--in all seriousness--Alusair could be alive and well in the 4e FR, in a different (magical/undead) form or perhaps simply herself, carried forward into the new world by means of a portal (I believe at least one is mentioned in the FRCG) or some other spell.
Rule of Corpse 101: If there's no body, then the person's not dead.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 16:16:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Hey don't worry. It's only been a couple days, Jakk--I've seen threads pause for years before flurrious commentary.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I don't think the Realms died with a whimper at all in my scenario. I think it went out with a bang, just like the Spellplague should have accomplished were it applied with consistency.
Hmm. I think *consistency* is a matter of some debate in this instance, as the Spellplague and the effects flying around therein were nothing that anyone had seen before in the Realms. We only know what happened after Karsus's Avatar because the Realms articulated it for us historically. If that spell were cast again, we'd have some sense of what happened. But in this instance, the Spellplague was something we'd never seen, which took place for reasons that hadn't been exemplified before. Who's to say that anything was consistent or not?
The problem is, though, that we do have some things to measure against. And the Sellplague -- which in some regards, should have been a lesser event -- goes far wider in scope. We've had two goddesses of magic slain, and all the gods cast out of the heavens, without the planes themselves rearranging and continents being swapped from elsewhere -- so why now does the death of a single goddess cause that? Heck, other deities have been slain without anyone even noticing!
I can see some blowback happening from Mystra's death, certainly. Just not on such a large scale. And prior canon has definitely established that Shar could not have blocked the ascension of a new deity.
If you watch several individual hand grenades go off, and each leaves a 20 foot ring of scorched ground, then it doesn't make sense when one suddenly leaves a five mile wide crater. And that's what we're looking at here.
Oh, and let's not overlook the other main inconsistency. The Sellplague causes bad things where magic is concerned... Except where there are large concentrations of mortal magic. So the gods get screwed, but enough mortals together can get thru it? And if large concentrations of mortal magic are fine, why, then, did Halruaa blow up?
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think that, just on a practical level, WotC applied the Spellplague to the Realms in order to *change* the Realms, not *destroy* them. They wanted a re-envisioned setting, and the Spellplague was their tool. It couldn't, by definition, do anything but what they wanted, because they constructed the tool for specifically this purpose.
As I've said before, all this would have been great with a new setting. Applying these often contradictory (and self-contradictory!) effects to an established setting just doesn't work nearly as well. The Sellplague contradicts prior lore and itself.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 17:12:10
|
Disclaimer: I want it to be noted and firmly understood that I am discussing this issue only as a fellow fan and reader of the Realms--not as a writer or in any official capacity. My word should have no more or less weight than any other sage on these boards.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem is, though, that we do have some things to measure against. And the Sellplague -- which in some regards, should have been a lesser event -- goes far wider in scope.
/snip/
We've had two goddesses of magic slain, and all the gods cast out of the heavens, without the planes themselves rearranging and continents being swapped from elsewhere -- so why now does the death of a single goddess cause that? Heck, other deities have been slain without anyone even noticing!
Well ok, ok--we've had events that *seem* similar in the past . . . but we don't know enough about the causes of the Spellplague to say whether it was really the same deal.
All we know is that Mystra was murdered on her home plane (Dweomerheart) by another greater god (Cyric), possibly with the aid of a third greater god (Shar). Right there, that's not the same as the other two times Mystra died. In old Netheril, Mystryl died of a mortal spell cast by a mortal (powerful, but mortal) on the mortal plane: this death wasn't by any means permanent, as she came right back and saved the day (well, partly). The second time, Mystra died on the prime material again, albeit at the hands of a god (Helm), but she had previously passed her magic onto mortals to carry in trust. Planned resurrection of a sort. The rules were also different during the Time of Troubles.
But in 1385 when Cyric did her in, it was on her native plane Dweomerheart--the only place a god (according to previous lore, at least to my understanding) can really be killed (unless the rules are changed by a greater power, such as in the Time of Troubles). And we don't know *how* he managed to kill her, only that he did. Plenty of room for reasonable doubt.
If we accept that the where/how of Mystra's death was different (and on a greater scale) than in the past, then I see no reason to assert that it couldn't cause the sort of chaos we got out of the spellplague (and on a correspondingly greater scale). In particular, as Mystra *was* the Weave (both caretaker and metaphysical embodiment), her death was like the Weave's death--or at least madness. Since all magic is powered by the Weave and magic is what holds the world together (at least in the Realms), then why not all that chaos on the mortal plane?
Also, if they planes exist in a sort of balance, the sudden disappearance of one might very well unbalance them--like a house of cards deprived of one of its supporting cards, they teeter and fall.
Now. I'm not saying that the Spellplague should have gone down the way it did, or that it makes sense (I think it's supposed to make sense only to an extent--madness is like that)--I'm only trying to demonstrate that it's quite *possible* (at least IMO).
That said, if you don't buy it, you don't buy it. I'm just asserting that it's possible, at least in my view.
quote:
And prior canon has definitely established that Shar could not have blocked the ascension of a new deity.
Conceded, at least under the "divine rules" at that time. The "rules" might be different now, though: if Ao has withdrawn, then there's no telling what Shar can and can't do. Then again, it's entirely possible Ao isn't gone and he has helped block a new god of magic from arising. It's even entirely possible that all the deities wish to block such an ascension, for fear that a spellplague would happen again.
quote:
If you watch several individual hand grenades go off, and each leaves a 20 foot ring of scorched ground, then it doesn't make sense when one suddenly leaves a five mile wide crater. And that's what we're looking at here.
Heh, just wanted to say I like this analogy. But under my logic (above), it's more like several individual hand grenades (Mystra deaths) vs. a hand grenade (Mystra death) that goes off in a really, really bad place (Dweomerheart), setting off a chain reaction that is much, much worse (like, say, in the electron collider they have over there in Europe that could potentially end the world if something goes wrong).
quote:
Oh, and let's not overlook the other main inconsistency. The Sellplague causes bad things where magic is concerned... Except where there are large concentrations of mortal magic. So the gods get screwed, but enough mortals together can get thru it? And if large concentrations of mortal magic are fine, why, then, did Halruaa blow up?
/snip/
Applying these often contradictory (and self-contradictory!) effects to an established setting just doesn't work nearly as well. The Sellplague contradicts prior lore and itself.
It's important to remember that we don't really know *why* the spellplague did things the way it did (i.e. magical madness).
Mortal magic *might* have blocked the spellplague's effects, but it might simply have been coincidence. It seems to me more likely that it was coincidence or some unseen effect, because Halruaa had much more magic than Waterdeep and the spellplague didn't flow about *it*. It could be a matter of *different* magics, or the presence of a particular creature, or maybe Halaster.
The point is we just don't know.
Also, the gods weren't necessarily helpless, as opposed to mortals. Some of them made it, some of them were overwhelmed--just like mortals. The gods' powers might have been far greater than mortal power, but they were fighting chaos on a planar (infinite) scale, rather than on a worldly (finite) scale. I see the chaos on the planes as being a reasonable parallel to the chaos on the prime material.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 17:33:58
|
| That's a well-considered and well-reasoned post, Erik. I only want to add that the murder appears to have occurred more or less concurrently with the Toril/Abeir conjunction, something else we don't fully understand, which may also have had some influence on why and how Mystra's passing effected the Cosmos as it did. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 18:11:29
|
See, I can't see how Mystra's death was different this time. With Karsus, all magic stopped working -- and yet, this did not cause the Weave to go all screwy. With Helm and the Time of Troubles, the Weave and magic was going all screwy -- and yet her death didn't really do that much. If anything would have caused this much chaos, it should have happened when none of the gods had any control, and everything in existence was already going wonky. And that's definitely a time when any other world that were going to show up should have done so.
This time, Mystra still had some of her power vested in mortals -- her Chosen. That was part of the point of her having them. Since they held some of her power, they should have been able to anchor the Weave and prevent anything from happening. This was not the case.
Oh, and as for a planar balance: there didn't seem to be any effect from Lolth moving her home... And we've had other deities die without their planes or any others being affected...
My statement about the gods being screwed wasn't about the chaos -- it was about the fact that deific realms are entirely under the control of their controlling deity. And yet, we see these getting tossed about as part of the Sellplague. Mortal magic can't do this, and deities have a lot more magical oomph than mortals -- so why did concentrations of mortal magic not get affected? It's a quote from a designer that the Sellplague flowed around these areas -- so it should have also flowed around Halruaa, and definitely around deific realms.
I have yet to see a single aspect of the Sellplague that makes any sense. So long as that remains the case, I'm going to remain unhappy about it. Making a change is acceptable, so long as the change makes sense and is internally consistent. The Sellplague is neither. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 19:07:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I can't see how Mystra's death was different this time.
Let me repeat the differences:
1) Home plane/heart of magic.
2) Killed by God.
3) As central/"heart" Goddess, rather than as summoned being to Toril (Karsus's Folly) or as avatar (ToT).
quote:
With Karsus, all magic stopped working -- and yet, this did not cause the Weave to go all screwy. With Helm and the Time of Troubles, the Weave and magic was going all screwy -- and yet her death didn't really do that much.
Yes, but--to use a computer analogy--those were more minor reboots vs. a major system crash.
Karsus didn't do anything to Dweomerheart (or whatever plane she had at the time), and clearly Mystra could collect her energies back into herself. The Weave was still there--it just required Mystryl to pull herself back together as Mystra to start taking care of herself.
During the ToT, only a shell of Mystra died--she'd already invested most of her power into Elminster (Shadow of the Avatar trilogy) and quite a bit into her other chosen, as well as Midnight. She was running on, maybe, 5-10%, rather than her usual 80% (let's say that's how much of her own power she holds onto, while her chosen had 20%).
When Mystra died in 1385--in her home plane--that was a major system crash at the root heart of the inter-web of magic. All of her 80% was released (Shar couldn't seize it) and BAM!! Dweomerheart implodes, the planes are thrown out of balance, magic starts going wonky. The Chosen (who only have the 20% amongst them) can't hold everything together. Hello Spellplague.
Remember also that we don't know *how* Cyric killed Mystra--only that he did. It might be that a by-product of how he killed her release all the energy all at once, rather than allowing it to pull itself back together. Or perhaps it was Shar.
*We don't know.*
And in the face of lack of evidence, I'm going with "reasonable doubt."
quote:
And that's definitely a time when any other world that were going to show up should have done so.
Interesting thought, but I think Mystra foresaw her demise in the ToT and that's why she invested her power into El and others, to *avoid* something like that (or whatever other apocalypse you might name).
quote:
This time, Mystra still had some of her power vested in mortals -- her Chosen. That was part of the point of her having them. Since they held some of her power, they should have been able to anchor the Weave and prevent anything from happening. This was not the case.
See above for my discussion about the relative *amounts* of power she had invested. My contention is that the amount of power the Chosen had was not enough to hold everything together.
quote:
Oh, and as for a planar balance: there didn't seem to be any effect from Lolth moving her home...
Well, I think Lolth did what she did in order to *hide* the effects of her work and to minimize the impact--thus, no one would know she was doing it until it was too late.
And it isn't like she *died* or killed a greater god on his/her homeplane. All she did was tear her plane free of the Abyss and make a home elsewhere.
quote:
And we've had other deities die without their planes or any others being affected...
/snip/
My statement about the gods being screwed wasn't about the chaos -- it was about the fact that deific realms are entirely under the control of their controlling deity. And yet, we see these getting tossed about as part of the Sellplague.
Well, the gods have absolute control of their own planes (unless they share them, of course) *within their own planes*, but the Spellplague tossed planes around, and they crammed into each other or spun off into nowhere, etc., etc. The gods might have been able to use their powers to try to hold their own planes together against the ravages from outside (which many of them did, successfully or not), but none of them had control over the whole multiverse (i.e., they couldn't so much *stop* the attacks of the spellplague on their planes as fight it off).
quote:
Mortal magic can't do this, and deities have a lot more magical oomph than mortals -- so why did concentrations of mortal magic not get affected? It's a quote from a designer that the Sellplague flowed around these areas -- so it should have also flowed around Halruaa, and definitely around deific realms.
But did the designer say *why* it flowed around these areas?
If no, then I assert that my suggested possibilities (coincidence, mostly, because the spellplague was essentially magical-madness) are still valid.
Please note that I'm not trying to make anyone *feel happy about* or accept the Spellplague. I'm just trying to explain why *I*, for one, am ok with it.
I don't see anything about it that is logically inconsistent, and so I'm ok accepting that I don't know how everything worked, it just did.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 19:34:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
*snip*
Since all magic is powered by the Weave and magic is what holds the world together (at least in the Realms), then why not all that chaos on the mortal plane?
*snip*
Ah yes. The Weave was needed as that was the only means for magic in the realms. So, when Mystra dies, the weave goes 'kablooie' and wreaks havoc on the world. I totally agree with that reasoning except for the major fact that after all that, magic still works in the Realms, the same as it did before.
So is the Weave gone? Was it ever there in the first place? Designers say that the Weave is no more. But, where's the magic coming from now? Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this puzzle. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 19:50:59
|
Just as a point of information, did the Weave always exist? Wasn't there magic before it came into being? (I'm asking cuz I don't know.)
And, Ashe, magic doesn't work in the Realms "the same as it did before." In both mechanical gaming terms and in lore terms, it works quite differently. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 20:08:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
So is the Weave gone? Was it ever there in the first place? Designers say that the Weave is no more. But, where's the magic coming from now? Sorry, I can't wrap my head around this puzzle.
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
And, Ashe, magic doesn't work in the Realms "the same as it did before." In both mechanical gaming terms and in lore terms, it works quite differently.
The magic is still there, just the Weave (that is, the great tapestry created out of the billions of threads of magic) that held it all together is gone (see below for the distinction).
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Just as a point of information, did the Weave always exist? Wasn't there magic before it came into being? (I'm asking cuz I don't know.)
Sages, correct me on this, since I'm just conveying my understanding:
I think the Weave sprang into existence when Mystryl was born out of the fight between Selune and Shar. To my mind at least, the Weave/Mystryl was a way of keeping all that power in an *ordered* sort of format. When the Weave finally unraveled in 1385, the order of magic was gone, but all the power was still there--just harder to access (or, rather, you needed to learn to do it differently). New schools of wizardry, etc., have cropped up since the Spellplague.
But that's really mostly speculation.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 20:26:51
|
I wonder if this has ever crossed anyone's mind.
Karsus, when he took Mystryl's mantle of divinity, claimed the portfolio's of Magic, controlling the Weave etc.
Karsus's home plane was Toril.
Karsus was slain by another gods, I.e. Mystryl's, actions.
So, Karsus was a full god of magic when slain, on his home plane, and slain by another god. Yet, no Sellplague.
Wooly's right, I'm afraid. |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 20:58:16
|
Well, Toril is said to be "in the natural world" and the murder happened in "the supernatural world" of the dominions of the gods. I think Erik's theory stands, but maybe we'd all benefit from taking a look at this passage from the introduction to Chapter 4, "Cosmology," in the FRCG.
The Spellplague began, for all intents and purposes, in the dominions of the gods. Cyric murdered Mystra, unraveling magic in the cosmos and destroying her dominion. At the same time, Abeir and Toril happened into alignment. This cataclysmic coincidence led to upheaval, shaking apart the primeval order, opening up holes in defenses, and reshaping elements..."--FRCG, p. 60
So, as Eric says, we don't know the nature of the murder. And Cyric may have done something separately or in addition to the murder to "unravel" magic.
But mostly, I think the concurrence of the murder with the Abeir/Toril conjunction is the crucial factor not present when similar instances occurred in the past.
|
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 02 Oct 2008 21:15:55 |
|
|
|
Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 21:05:24
|
The problem for me with looking at the FRCG is the rising bile in the pit of my stomach upon looking at such a stupid book.
I think we'd all benefit from banning 4th Edition 'Realms' talk from Candlekeep, to be honest. |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 21:13:10
|
Uzzy,
Well said! The Karsus death scenario is certainly a clever critique of my suggested explanation.
But let's go with it for the sake of argument, and you'll see it doesn't jeopardize my position.
First, let's define what the Spellplague was, generally: an unraveling of the Weave, inflicting chaos on the multiverse.
I have a couple different scenarios to suggest:
1) Perhaps the Spellplague didn't just happen in 1385 because Mystra died permanently, but also because she died in the *heart* of the Weave (Dweomerheart = deomer + heart = magic/spell + heart, kind of a stretch, but you know what I mean). When killed there and unable to reincarnate herself, her death set off a chain reaction that unraveled the whole thing and caused the chaos (spellplague). (Note: this draws on Mr. Rowe's analysis, which is based on that passage in the FRCG.)
Flash back to Netheril: Just because Karsus was the god of magic however briefly does not mean that he was privy to the *center* of magic (Dweomerheart), particularly if he was *native* to the Realms (which also begs the question, being as we're not sure the spell wouldn't have pulled him out of the realms and into Mystryl's former domain to take up residence). *His* death wouldn't have had the same effect--wouldn't blow up close enough to the center of magic to set off the chain reaction.
But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Karsus's death *should have* caused a spellplague . . . what's our evidence that it *didn't*?
That brings us to scenario #2.
2) Maybe Mystra (or Mystryl 2.0) averted a Netherese spellplague by grabbing the reins of the Weave before it unraveled?
I mean, that's what happened, isn't it? Mystra appeared in the wake of Karsus's folly and saved the world from falling apart from no one tending the Weave. (Sounds like magical apocalpyse to me!)
In this scenario, Karsus's quick thinking (or, rather, spontaneous overload and insta-death) and Mystryl's reincarnation almost right away saved the Realms from a Spellplague in that instance as well. Just as she caught at least one of the falling cities, so too did she successfully stop a spellplague from ravaging the world.
So. I like scenario #2 better, but both are still logically consistent, and thus still possible.
Cheers
P.S. Also, while I appreciate and respect your dislike of the FRCG and the 4e Realms in general, for the purposes of this discussion about the 3e/4e transitional event, we *have to* be able to draw on 4e information.
EDIT: To incorporate material from intervening posts made while I was writing this one! |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 02 Oct 2008 21:19:13 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 21:59:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I can't see how Mystra's death was different this time.
Let me repeat the differences:
1) Home plane/heart of magic.
2) Killed by God.
3) As central/"heart" Goddess, rather than as summoned being to Toril (Karsus's Folly) or as avatar (ToT).
quote:
With Karsus, all magic stopped working -- and yet, this did not cause the Weave to go all screwy. With Helm and the Time of Troubles, the Weave and magic was going all screwy -- and yet her death didn't really do that much.
Yes, but--to use a computer analogy--those were more minor reboots vs. a major system crash.
Karsus didn't do anything to Dweomerheart (or whatever plane she had at the time), and clearly Mystra could collect her energies back into herself. The Weave was still there--it just required Mystryl to pull herself back together as Mystra to start taking care of herself.
But with Karsus, all magic stopped functioning -- otherwise, Netheril wouldn't have fallen. That indicates that the Weave itself was gone. And for Mystryl to have needed reincarnation, then she would have had to have been totally dead -- home plane and elsewhere. No magic at all, the goddess totally dead, and yet, no effect beyond magic not working. That's why I'm not seeing her death in Dweomerheart as a factor.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
During the ToT, only a shell of Mystra died--she'd already invested most of her power into Elminster (Shadow of the Avatar trilogy) and quite a bit into her other chosen, as well as Midnight. She was running on, maybe, 5-10%, rather than her usual 80% (let's say that's how much of her own power she holds onto, while her chosen had 20%).
When Mystra died in 1385--in her home plane--that was a major system crash at the root heart of the inter-web of magic. All of her 80% was released (Shar couldn't seize it) and BAM!! Dweomerheart implodes, the planes are thrown out of balance, magic starts going wonky. The Chosen (who only have the 20% amongst them) can't hold everything together. Hello Spellplague.
This is why I mentioned the death of other deities. Other deities have had violent deaths, in their home plane, without any effect whatsoever anywhere else. That's why I don't understand why Mystra's death would cause her plane to blow up. And, as I said, she had to have been killed at home before, with Karsus, for magic to stop and for her to need to reincarnate herself -- yet her home plane didn't blow up.
I mention her Chosen because part of their purpose has always been holding some of her power. If she took the precaution of creating them for that purpose, then it only makes sense that they would be able to stabilize the Weave when something happened to her. So, even if the Weave did go wonky, the failsafes she herself created should have prevented anything further from happening.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Remember also that we don't know *how* Cyric killed Mystra--only that he did. It might be that a by-product of how he killed her release all the energy all at once, rather than allowing it to pull itself back together. Or perhaps it was Shar.
*We don't know.*
We don't know how a lot of other deities died, either, throughout Toril's history. All we know is that countless divine deaths, and the deaths of two former deities of magic, didn't cause anything approaching the scale of the death of this deity of magic.
Hence, my hand grenade analogy. Even the most well-placed hand grenade isn't going to bring down a large, well-built structure.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And in the face of lack of evidence, I'm going with "reasonable doubt."
See, all I see when I look at it is things happening on far grander scale than can possibly be explained by the death of a single deity. As someone pointed out over on the Wizards boards, if Ao had been killed, then everything would have made more since. The death of a single deity just can't justify everything that happened, especially since the Sellplague failed to happen on other occasions when the deity of magic died.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that's definitely a time when any other world that were going to show up should have done so.
Interesting thought, but I think Mystra foresaw her demise in the ToT and that's why she invested her power into El and others, to *avoid* something like that (or whatever other apocalypse you might name).
My point is that it shouldn't have just been the death of Mystra that caused that. During the Time of Trouble, everything was breaking down and failing to function right. All of nature was getting really weird, because no one was at home to keep an eye on things. With all of nature -- not just magic -- going awry and no deific control anywhere, that's when something like the Abeir merger should have happened.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This time, Mystra still had some of her power vested in mortals -- her Chosen. That was part of the point of her having them. Since they held some of her power, they should have been able to anchor the Weave and prevent anything from happening. This was not the case.
See above for my discussion about the relative *amounts* of power she had invested. My contention is that the amount of power the Chosen had was not enough to hold everything together.
As I said above, I can't see that Mystra would create failsafes that would themselves fail.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and as for a planar balance: there didn't seem to be any effect from Lolth moving her home...
Well, I think Lolth did what she did in order to *hide* the effects of her work and to minimize the impact--thus, no one would know she was doing it until it was too late.
And it isn't like she *died* or killed a greater god on his/her homeplane. All she did was tear her plane free of the Abyss and make a home elsewhere.
Well, yeah. But you mentioned planar balance. I brought that up to show that things do get shuffled on the planes without the balance being affected. Even if Dweomerheart went boom, it shouldn't have affected anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My statement about the gods being screwed wasn't about the chaos -- it was about the fact that deific realms are entirely under the control of their controlling deity. And yet, we see these getting tossed about as part of the Sellplague.
Well, the gods have absolute control of their own planes (unless they share them, of course) *within their own planes*, but the Spellplague tossed planes around, and they crammed into each other or spun off into nowhere, etc., etc. The gods might have been able to use their powers to try to hold their own planes together against the ravages from outside (which many of them did, successfully or not), but none of them had control over the whole multiverse (i.e., they couldn't so much *stop* the attacks of the spellplague on their planes as fight it off).
There's my point: if they can keep their planes together and unravaged, then why can't they keep their planes where they are?
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Mortal magic can't do this, and deities have a lot more magical oomph than mortals -- so why did concentrations of mortal magic not get affected? It's a quote from a designer that the Sellplague flowed around these areas -- so it should have also flowed around Halruaa, and definitely around deific realms.
But did the designer say *why* it flowed around these areas?
Nope, he did not. But I can not see any logical explanation for why a mythal-clad city (which is a less magical place than a divine realm) would be relatively immune to the Sellplague, but the more magical places (divine realms, Halruaa) wouldn't be. We have it happening on a small scale (to wizards), on a large scale (to nations), on a very large scale (to divine realms), to a freakin' huge scale (Abeir!), but not to something in the middle of all that. I also fail to see the logic in some mortal magic (again, mythals) being safe with other mortal magic (Halruaa) getting nuked.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If no, then I assert that my suggested possibilities (coincidence, mostly, because the spellplague was essentially magical-madness) are still valid.
My thinking is that if something extends everywhere, and the whole thing goes kablooie, then everything should have been uniformly affected.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Please note that I'm not trying to make anyone *feel happy about* or accept the Spellplague. I'm just trying to explain why *I*, for one, am ok with it.
I'm not trying to sell my anti-Sellplague stance to anyone, myself. I'm trying to show why it does not make any sense to me.
I will never be happy with the Sellplague, since it irrevocably changed my favorite setting into something I no longer recognize. However, I would not have nearly as many complaints (or even my own name for it) if the whole thing had been consistent (both with itself and with prior canon), well-explained, and didn't have the appearance of cherry-picking what was and what wasn't worth keeping in the new version of the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I don't see anything about it that is logically inconsistent, and so I'm ok accepting that I don't know how everything worked, it just did.
Cheers
It's good that it works for some people, and that it seems logical to them. I'm just not one of those people. And judging by the number of people who have complained, I'm not the only one.
I think this particularly RSE could have been done in such a manner that people weren't left questioning how things could have transpired. After all, until recently (the last few years, that is), most RSEs have made sense and been logical. Perhaps not desired by the fans or even liked by them, but still logical.
It would have been a lot more acceptable if it had made more sense. It would have been even more acceptable if it didn't give the appearance -- right or wrong -- of allowing the designers to remove anything they didn't personally like and replace it with something new. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 22:33:58
|
Wooly,
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. You keep asking reasonable questions, I try to answer them (IMO), and you keep asking the same questions. So if what I'm saying doesn't work for you, then I'm not sure what I can say to change that.
The Spellplague doesn't work for you--I accept that, and I don't mean to change that. I am just trying to address your assertion that it is internally and externally inconsistent. And dusting off my Philosophy degree, I'm giving you at least one possible explanation, which--according to the rules of logic--is how you prove something possible. Demonstrate at least one way something can work, and it means its not *impossible* (however unlikely).
To address a couple of the points:
quote:
But with Karsus, all magic stopped functioning -- otherwise, Netheril wouldn't have fallen. That indicates that the Weave itself was gone.
Not necessarily. You assume that for magic to stop functioning, that means the Weave itself was gone--not true. That's like assuming that not having a sandwich to eat for lunch at the office means it suddenly doesn't exist--even though you just forgot it at home before you left for work.
Magic could stop functioning for any number of reasons, not the least of which is--as seems most likely to me in this instance--mortal magic lost its connection to the Weave (i.e., the power didn't go away, just the connection between the power station and the light fixtures was temporarily interrupted) because the God who was suddenly tending the Weave wasn't up to the task of using it correctly, i.e., letting it power magic in the world. Mystryl popped out of existence, at the same instant Karsus became a God and found he couldn't control the Weave so magic stopped working, Karsus went crazy and died, at the same instant Mystra appeared and caught the fraying Weave.
In my scenario, the Weave began to unravel as soon as Karsus lost control of it, but Mystra/Mystryl 2.0 appeared in a flash of divine foresight and caught everything before it went all kablooey. Too late for the Empire of Netheril, but hey, every empire falls some day.
Fundamentally, the difference between her death in Netheril and her death in Dweomerheart is that *FOR SOME REASON* (we don't know why), Mystra couldn't reincarnate herself the way she'd done every time in the past. Maybe it was being killed in her home plane (rather than the prime material), or maybe it was something in the way she died. Either way, the Weave started unraveling with her death (just like before), and no one could stop it.
Her Chosen had part of her power at the time, but Mystra wasn't expecting whatever happened to her, so they didn't have enough power to stop the Spellplague--though who's to say they didn't fight against it and diminish its effects? (Again, we just don't know.)
As for other gods dying without causing chaos, Mystryl/Mystra has always been a special deity, apart from all others, because she was granted control over all magic. It wasn't her *death* so much that caused the madness, but the fact that she ceased to control the Weave and without her, magic ran uncontrolled, unchecked, chaotic.
quote:
My thinking is that if something extends everywhere, and the whole thing goes kablooie, then everything should have been uniformly affected.
Again, Spellplague = magical madness = pure unadulterated chaos.
Chaos is NOT predictable and does not follow any set of rules. It does whatever, and it's only us humans (or our world and the Realms) who try to impose some sort of logical constraint on it.
So while you want it to have a consistent explanation . . . that's just not possible. Who knows why the Spellplague did what it did? All we can do is speculate, and I think that's the point.
quote:
I think this particularly RSE could have been done in such a manner that people weren't left questioning how things could have transpired. After all, until recently (the last few years, that is), most RSEs have made sense and been logical. Perhaps not desired by the fans or even liked by them, but still logical.
It would have been a lot more acceptable if it had made more sense. It would have been even more acceptable if it didn't give the appearance -- right or wrong -- of allowing the designers to remove anything they didn't personally like and replace it with something new.
It seem to me that what you really want is more explanation, and that isn't something the designers are giving.
And really--why would they? The whole idea of this setting shift seems to be to open it up to more DM/player building and improvisation . . . why not let the PCs in your game try to figure it out?
Frankly, I don't disagree with their decision not to explain it further. This way, DMs have the freedom to decide *how* it happened--just as DMs should have the freedom to decide *if* it happened.
What I've posted above and in the last few posts is just one possible explanation.
Cheers
|
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 22:44:05
|
I don't even see the need for all the inside baseball about the fine details of how much magical essence a given divine being was carrying when she died or what her location was relative to the heart of all magic.
Gods of magic have died before.
There are suggestions that Abeir Toril conjunctions, on a smaller scale, may have happened before.
A god of magic dying during a conjunction of Abeir and Toril has never happened before.
Consider the unprecedented coincidence. Add to it the facts that, as Erik has said, we don't know how the murder was accomplished or whether he did something in Dweomerheart in addition to murdering Mystra.
There is no comparable set of events in the published lore. A causal relationship between death/conjunction event(s) and the Spellplague that followed is not illogical, nor does it contradict what has been previously established.
Now, as for this:
quote:
...I can not see any logical explanation for why a mythal-clad city (which is a less magical place than a divine realm) would be relatively immune to the Sellplague [sic], but the more magical places (divine realms, Halruaa) wouldn't be. We have it happening on a small scale (to wizards), on a large scale (to nations), on a very large scale (to divine realms), to a freakin' huge scale (Abeir!), but not to something in the middle of all that. I also fail to see the logic in some mortal magic (again, mythals) being safe with other mortal magic (Halruaa) getting nuked.
You seem to be looking for some sort of specific, graded continuum against which to measure the effects of an unprecedented, cataclysmic upheaval, the kind of event that is almost the definition of chaos.
When I was in high school, my friend Russ had a summer job as the overnight guy at a campground on Green River Lake close to my house. I used to go out there and hang out, because he really didn't have to do much more than sell the occasional bag of ice to an insomniac boat owner. One night, though, the tornado alarms went off and it definitely wasn't a drill. By morning, nobody could swear they'd seen a funnel cloud, but there was definitely an extreme weather event in Lone Valley that night.
Nobody got hurt, thank goodness. But some hundred year old trees were blown clear across the lake. But then again, some hundred year old trees in the same grove didn't even lose all their leaves. One guy from Ohio wouldn't come out of his camper to join us in the shelter, and it turns out he was right, his camper came through fine. But his boat, which had been sitting on the trailer hitched to his camper, was 300 yards up the hillside, a tumult of fiberglass and destroyed poplars.
My Dodge Colt was pretty much okay. Except that three of the four tires were flattened by sharp gravel that blew through the sidewalls. No problem with the windows, though. Not even a crack.
How on earth could all of these crazy things have happened in Lone Valley on Green River Lake in Kentucky, which is right here in the rational, logical real world, and how could they happen over the course of maybe forty-five minutes? How could they be so self-contradictory?
I don't know. You tell me.
|
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Spellplague According to Prior Canon
