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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 01:01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
How on earth could all of these crazy things have happened in Lone Valley on Green River Lake in Kentucky, which is right here in the rational, logical real world, and how could they happen over the course of maybe forty-five minutes? How could they be so self-contradictory?
I don't know. You tell me.
I don't know either, but there is probably a natural explanation for everything that happened.
As for the ongoing debate? It doesn't really matter whether or not the Spellplague can be made to make sense, since I don't like it and wouldn't use it in my Realms anyway. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 01:03:22
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Ah! Now this is the kind of discussion I was hoping to provoke! My thanks to Uzzy, Erik, Wooly, and Christopher for their insightful (and, at times, stubborn) commentary.
Erik: I appreciate your arguments, and I actually think that they make things make more sense for the canon Realms, particularly in light of Christopher's contribution to the fray. The circumstances of Mystra/Mystryl's death were quite different in all three cases, and that may be what makes the difference in effect. Philosophy degrees aren't nearly useful enough, imho, and I consider that to be a problem with our society, not a problem with the subject matter.
Wooly: I'm still right there with you, but I think we have to concede that there is some logic to be found in some elements of what happened. But, like you, I still have issues with what happened in Halruaa, and for much the same reasons, although Christopher's point is well taken... "random" does not mean "equally applied." I will confess, though, that the primary source of my softening stance on the latest RSE is a contribution from Ed himself, who states (I believe in his current Questions scroll) that the Spellplague was foreshadowed back in the Old Gray Box, and that further foreshadowing was cut out of the second edition adventure "Haunted Halls of Eveningstar" (which I thought should have been twice as long as it was anyway). Search the forum for the phrase "Smashed the black star!" for the original scroll; I don't have the link handy, sorry. 
This does not mean that I'm going to rush out and buy the FRCG and FRPG tomorrow. First, because I'm presently unemployed, and second, because my campaign (as noted elsewhere) has already progressed past the year of Blue Fire with Mystra and her Chosen surviving just fine, thank you very much. I did account for a similar alternate course of events given the info in the GHotR, but I've described it elsewhere, probably more than once.
Thank you all for participating in the kind of conversation I had wanted to spark with my original post, and if you have more points to debate, keep it going. Who knows... you may have an impact on the future of my Realms. 
As a seed for that: I recently asked Ed about this: What if Khelben's findings at Candlekeep were what motivated his grandson to leave for Oerth and the Elder to assume the identity of the Younger? I propose that Khelben knew about both the ToT and the Spellplague before they happened, and encouraged his grandson to leave the crystal sphere to protect him from just such events. Following that argument, I propose that the younger Khelben will return to Toril in 1490 (the Year of the Star Walker's Return). [possible spoiler below for people who haven't read Blackstaff; if you haven't, do so! It's a brilliant novel, even if I wasn't crazy about the ending.]
The Realms just isn't the Realms without Khelben, and having someone impersonating him with his memories magically transferred just isn't the same.
[spoiler ends]
Anyway, I've blathered on long enough... keep the debate going, and to those in my boat like Wooly, things may not be as bad as we think they are... but even if I integrate the canon 4E Realms into my campaign at some point, I'm sticking with the 3.5 ruleset, for a variety of reasons that I will avoid discussing due to the positive and friendly nature of the discussion we have going here. Reining in my vitriol has been difficult, but I'm a happier person for it. I think. Maybe.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 03 Oct 2008 01:05:44 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem is, though, that we do have some things to measure against. And the Sellplague -- which in some regards, should have been a lesser event -- goes far wider in scope.
Sellplague?? Was that a typo or an intentional slam indicating some notion that the 4e Forgotten Realms are a sellout with all their negative changes to appease people who didn't like things like "too many gods" or "NPCs are too powerful" or "not enough evil compared to good" and so on?
Regardless, that's my new official term for FR4e: Sellplague. 
As for my campaign, when we reach 1385, things will continue on with a business as usual theme. Not even an assassination attempt against Mystra, let alone any campaign-shaking or -breaking events. I don't mind things changing over time, but such a huge shake-up in the span of one "short" century is way more than I ever want from my Realms. The Times of Trouble were enough of that for me. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:25:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
The problem for me with looking at the FRCG is the rising bile in the pit of my stomach upon looking at such a stupid book.
I think we'd all benefit from banning 4th Edition 'Realms' talk from Candlekeep, to be honest.
I would settle for and have suggested segregating 4e Realms talk from the quality stuff (which is everything prior to 4e, thank you). But, because Realmslore is Realmslore and this is Candlekeep, it doesn't look like either my idea or your's is likely to come about.
One very important question I have about 4e's Points of Light set up... what is the state of Candlekeep in the Realms one hundred winters after the Sellplague? Are the sages still keeping up track of everything within the campaign (as opposed to the dedicated folk here at the website who we know are doing just that), or has Candlekeep fallen to darkness? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 02:42:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
The problem for me with looking at the FRCG is the rising bile in the pit of my stomach upon looking at such a stupid book.
I think we'd all benefit from banning 4th Edition 'Realms' talk from Candlekeep, to be honest.
I would settle for and have suggested segregating 4e Realms talk from the quality stuff (which is everything prior to 4e, thank you). But, because Realmslore is Realmslore and this is Candlekeep, it doesn't look like either my idea or your's is likely to come about.
Segregating Realmslore will likely only add to the kinds of divisions we're already seeing develop between scribes with respect to the Realms. And that's not what Candlekeep is about. It's much easier for scribes to just identify whether or not their scrolls contain 4e chatter by adding a special "[4e Realms]" tag when they generate a title for their scroll.
quote:
One very important question I have about 4e's Points of Light set up... what is the state of Candlekeep in the Realms one hundred winters after the Sellplague? Are the sages still keeping up track of everything within the campaign (as opposed to the dedicated folk here at the website who we know are doing just that), or has Candlekeep fallen to darkness?
"Candlekeep remains a bastion of learning, though the crag it rests upon now stands at least 100 feet off the coast." -- pg. 84 FRCG. There's some further tidbits about Candlekeep's status on pg. 95.
Also, from Brian:-
"Candlekeep still stands, yet in the Year of the Ageless One it rests precariously on a slender volcanic crag 100 feet off the coast. Strong magic of unknown origin keeps it from plummeting into the Sea of Swords raging below."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 03:04:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Segregating Realmslore will likely only add to the kinds of divisions we're already seeing develop between scribes with respect to the Realms. And that's not what Candlekeep is about. It's much easier for scribes to just identify whether or not their scrolls contain 4e chatter by adding a special "[4e Realms]" tag when they generate a title for their scroll.
Honestly, would such divisions be bad if they kept the people who favor one edition over the other relatively separate? I mean, if there was a specific section to post 4e topics, then the people who resent the 4e setting can more easily tune them out and not bring their negativity into them... which can be so counterproductive as to force people posting to start off their thread by specifically asking to keep negative opinions away.
And the people who are decidedly pro-FR4e can post whatever topics they want without worrying about tagging the subject line as 4e specific and can just ask their questions and present whatever lore without having others derail the thread because they don't like or even approve of the new setting.
Candlekeep is definitely a repository for all Realmslore, but when I go to the public library, they don't lump everything together in the center of the room or even just all books of every category in one big alphabetical setup. They divide it up so people can find information relevant to what they seek more easily.
This is not to say that everyone is either difinitively 3e or 4e, and anyone that likes both could go to the section that has what they're looking for at a given time. I mean, if you walk into a room where a significant number of people don't want to hear about FR4e, would you ask the whole room for help or would you look for the people that also like the setting so you can have a more meaningful dialogue? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 03:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Honestly, would such divisions be bad if they kept the people who favor one edition over the other relatively separate?
Given the current feelings among both pro- and anti-4e scribes, I'm going to say yes.
quote:
I mean, if there was a specific section to post 4e topics, then the people who resent the 4e setting can more easily tune them out and not bring their negativity into them... which can be so counterproductive as to force people posting to start off their thread by specifically asking to keep negative opinions away.
Whether you "resent" the 4e Realms or not is a personal choice. Scribes have to have some responsibility for the way they each access Candlekeep. We can't possibly control every single aspect of every single discussion here. Some negativity is bound to slip through in places.
But, ultimately, it again comes back to the individual scribe. They are just as free to ignore a 4e discussion as they are to participate in such a discussion. Sectioning off parts of Candlekeep for specific edition-discussions isn't a solution. It's just a temporary fix to a much large issue -- namely, the capability for scribes to have a certain amount of respect and consideration for the opinions of ALL scribes when participating in a discussion. Whether it be 4e or not.
quote:
And the people who are decidedly pro-FR4e can post whatever topics they want without worrying about tagging the subject line as 4e specific and can just ask their questions and present whatever lore without having others derail the thread because they don't like or even approve of the new setting.
Again, this comes back to the issue of a scribe's own responsibility when using Candlekeep. You are responsible for what you read and post here. It's your choice. We really can't make these decisions for you. We have to respect all opinions and chatter.
quote:
Candlekeep is definitely a repository for all Realmslore, but when I go to the public library, they don't lump everything together in the center of the room or even just all books of every category in one big alphabetical setup. They divide it up so people can find information relevant to what they seek more easily.
Such a system works well when we have physical elements of collected knowledge. But it isn't quite so easy to translate into the electronic/virtual world.
Besides, we've had 1e, 2e, 3e, and even 4e discussions all occuring in the same scroll at times. And that can be somewhat difficult to categorise.
quote:
This is not to say that everyone is either difinitively 3e or 4e, and anyone that likes both could go to the section that has what they're looking for at a given time. I mean, if you walk into a room where a significant number of people don't want to hear about FR4e, would you ask the whole room for help or would you look for the people that also like the setting so you can have a more meaningful dialogue?
True. However, this just illustrates the point I was making earlier. It is the responsibility of the person asking for help to find where Candlekeep can be most useful for them. Remember, we have to make Candlekeep as accessible as we can for everybody. If we start dedicating sections of it to the personal whims of one scribe over another, or certain groups of scribes, then we fail in our duties as Mods/Admin to provide a place for ALL kinds of Realms chatter that can occur in whatever types of discussions that may arise.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Oct 2008 03:32:52 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 03:29:20
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I think I see two main problems with segregation. One is purely personal--the thing I like best to do is to study and understand the way that the Realms changes over time. For me, reading the most recent FRCG in the light cast by the Gray Box is the best way--not the only way, not the best way for everyone, the best way for me--to understand and appreciate the Fourth Edition. Reading the lore backwards and forwards and all the way down requires the freedom to read--and discuss--all of the lore.
The second thing has to do with the working designers, cartographers, writers, and other creators who are engaged in the day-to-day work of making the Realms that we buy at the game shop or download from wizards.com. Their active participation here is one of the really phenomenal things about Candlekeep, and I'm worried that when they spend some of their limited time to come here and join in this community effort to discuss and expand the Realms, they won't be too happy about having to choose between a Candlekeep that specifically engages with their work and a Candlekeep that specifically does not. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 03 Oct 2008 03:42:52 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 03:30:14
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| Now, having said all that, I prefer that we return to the scroll's actual topic. If any scribes have any further issues they wish to discuss concerning what has just been posted here, please feel free to PM me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 05:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
First, let's define what the Spellplague was, generally: an unraveling of the Weave, inflicting chaos on the multiverse.
Does it really make sense that the death of magic / the goddess of magic for ONE prime material plane / crystal shell is powerful enough to "inflict chaos on the multiverse"? If it really was that powerful I would expect that plague to overwhelm EVERYTHING, which then gets thrown into a big mixer and stirred up into a giant soup out of which something totally new gets born. Instead some pieces survive unscathed while others are totally gone? Sorry, but the designers lost me there.
The only reasonable explanation to this whole dilemma I can see is that the spellplague is
a) termed badly somewhat,
b) originated as a "disease" that threatened to eat the whole multiverse (maybe because some "Elder Evils" got too strong) and
c) Mystra died while she tried to fix / fight it and whoever takes the credits for it now is a big liar (which fits perfectly for Cyric, eh?). The actual "Spellplague" (spells working badly / not at all) is a consequence of the death of Mystras chosen and their goddess.
Nevertheless this is a totally ridiculous plot and if someone came up with a novel about this I wouldnt want to read it if I got paid for it. As has already been explained before: Since the goddess of magic has already died twice before and came back I would expect her to do so again (if it was a "local phenomenon" only), so the whole "magic working badly" aspect seems totally constructed out of thin air.
Where does magic come from now / in the past?
If it is just a "force of the universe": How could one god take control of it at the beginning of time and shut it down completely?
If it is just a "force of the universe": Why did it stop working when Karsus stole godhood?
If magic and the goddess of magic are dependant upon each other: Which came first? Hen or egg?
If magic and the goddess of magic are dependant upon each other: How do the gods survive without magic themselves without a goddess of magic to govern and generate magic?
As the example with Karsus has shown: If there is no goddess of magic there is no magic at all. Why then does 4e FR have magic? Everything is Shadow Weave dependant now?
Btw., this is Candlekeep, so its specialized in FR lore, but how are the changes of the game / magic explained for other prime material planes? The "butterfly effect" (Forgotten Realms is to blame)???? |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 03 Oct 2008 05:52:11 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 08:14:45
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With all due respect to the people involved doing what they're paid to do over at WotC, the lack of consistency forced on this whole thing for the sake of catering to a cross section of Realms fans that disliked Mystra and magic, Elminster and the Chosen, the notion that there were too many gods and too many of them good aligned, and other such nonsense seems downright [insert very long string of invectives here] and if I was paid for any such contribution I had made to any of it, I would politely ask to not have my name listed in the credits.
And if all of these nonsensical changes that were brought about as a result of people complaining about the state of the Realms before 4e, what kind of changes will be next based on all the complaints about how things are now? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 11:04:46
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I have been reading Monte Cook's blog and some of his conspiracy stuff only for only a few days, but after going to bed tonight and after the post above it hit me. So now I will reveal to you what REALLY happened in the Realms and the multiverse ... 
First though: Two "truths":
- Without light there is no shadow.
- Without something inbetween the great big emptiness of space is meaningless.
Ever since Einstein and his E = m c² we know these two truths are connected. So without further ado I present to you:
What really happened ...
The truth behind it all!
The power of the Shadow Weave and thus Shar was increasing, but Mystra knew all about it. How do you fight your antithesis though without increasing its power even more? More light creates more shadow! Thus something really drastic was needed ... the total absence of light!
Mystra lured the mad Cyric into her own plane with the delusion that he could kill her, but isnt Illusion one of the schools of magic and Mystra the goddess of magic? Sooo ...
- Cyric goes to Dweomerheart and tries to kill Mystra.
- Mystra fakes her own death and cuts off access to Dweomerheart from the rest of the multiverse, giving up control of "The Weave" OR taking part of it with her! This is highly likely if - as history and Karsus has shown - both are dependant upon each other.
- The "Weave of light" ceases to exist and thus the "Shadow Weave" is gone as well. What remains to fuel magic is the "substance" that is neither light nor shadow, but rather the "object" that is required to create shadow from a source of light. The Shadow Weave has always been described wrong by scholars and it never was the "nothing inbetween the strands of the Weave".
- At the last second Azuth got "kicked out" of Dweomerheart to have a representative for magic among the gods of the Realms.
- Many other gods have been warned about this - or found out by themselves what Mystra did - and cut themselves and their own homeplanes off just like Mystra showed them, simply to preserve their own homes in the "old glory" and to be able to come back when magic was back to normal.
- At this time Mystra sits behind her impenetrable walls and watches the Realms through Azuth and all "old style magic items" that still function.
- The magic of the Realms is now fueled by "minor magic", but which is uncontrolled and thus available to more people ... even to more or less nonmagical warriors to fuel their quasimagical powers.
- In a few years (around the time of 5th edition ...) Mystra and all the other gods will reemerge from their exile and a new golden age will begin. The Weave will then be pure again without the taint of the shadow weave, but it will have to be after the shadow weave has been full absorbed by "the substance".
Some things are not yet clear, but the reduced number of outer planes accessible from the Realms might also be caused by Mystra to simply cut off Shar from many possible sources of power and allies. This also increased the status of Asmodeus and others and simplified things for mortals to a more "black and white-ish" sort of ethics.
There is a precedent of this sort in D&D history, because the prime material plane of Dark Sun is cut off from the rest of the multiverse. There was - if my memory is correct - an adventure, where the players are able to travel to the Astral Plane though.
P.S.: I hope you have as much fun reading this as I had figuring it out!  |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 03 Oct 2008 11:10:38 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 12:28:27
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Again, there is no lack of consistency regarding Mystra's death. The set of events precipitating the Spellplague has no precedent in the Lore.
When you (using the plural, here) ignore one of the major factors involved, a factor never present with regard to previous deific deaths, well, at that point, your arguments, not to coin a phrase, "unravel."
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 13:39:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Uzzy,
Well said! The Karsus death scenario is certainly a clever critique of my suggested explanation.
But let's go with it for the sake of argument, and you'll see it doesn't jeopardize my position.
First, let's define what the Spellplague was, generally: an unraveling of the Weave, inflicting chaos on the multiverse.
I have a couple different scenarios to suggest:
1) Perhaps the Spellplague didn't just happen in 1385 because Mystra died permanently, but also because she died in the *heart* of the Weave (Dweomerheart = deomer + heart = magic/spell + heart, kind of a stretch, but you know what I mean). When killed there and unable to reincarnate herself, her death set off a chain reaction that unraveled the whole thing and caused the chaos (spellplague). (Note: this draws on Mr. Rowe's analysis, which is based on that passage in the FRCG.)
Flash back to Netheril: Just because Karsus was the god of magic however briefly does not mean that he was privy to the *center* of magic (Dweomerheart), particularly if he was *native* to the Realms (which also begs the question, being as we're not sure the spell wouldn't have pulled him out of the realms and into Mystryl's former domain to take up residence). *His* death wouldn't have had the same effect--wouldn't blow up close enough to the center of magic to set off the chain reaction.
But let's say, for the sake of argument, that Karsus's death *should have* caused a spellplague . . . what's our evidence that it *didn't*?
That brings us to scenario #2.
2) Maybe Mystra (or Mystryl 2.0) averted a Netherese spellplague by grabbing the reins of the Weave before it unraveled?
I mean, that's what happened, isn't it? Mystra appeared in the wake of Karsus's folly and saved the world from falling apart from no one tending the Weave. (Sounds like magical apocalpyse to me!)
In this scenario, Karsus's quick thinking (or, rather, spontaneous overload and insta-death) and Mystryl's reincarnation almost right away saved the Realms from a Spellplague in that instance as well. Just as she caught at least one of the falling cities, so too did she successfully stop a spellplague from ravaging the world.
So. I like scenario #2 better, but both are still logically consistent, and thus still possible.
Cheers
P.S. Also, while I appreciate and respect your dislike of the FRCG and the 4e Realms in general, for the purposes of this discussion about the 3e/4e transitional event, we *have to* be able to draw on 4e information.
EDIT: To incorporate material from intervening posts made while I was writing this one!
Scenario 1 relies on Dweomerheart being the heart of the Weave, which I'm not sure about. Of course, bringing the location of Mystra's death into it brings rise to another problem.
Namely, how Cyric the Incompetent managed to slay Mystra on her home plane. I think home advantage would count for a lot when taking on the most powerful god in the Realms.
Scenario 2 is better. Of course, I can counter this by pointing out that Mystra decided to ensure that the chaos surrouding Karsus's Avatar by ensuring that there were many ready people on Toril who could take up her mantle, at least temporarily, if she were to fall. Elminster did this during the Time of Troubles. So, why exactly couldn't he or the five remaining Sisters, or even Mystra's other remaining chosen do it this time round?
I mean, apart from Shar doing something that's never been managed before, and suddenly being able to block a divine ascension.
The Sellplague is utterly inconsistant with previous lore, and should be recognised for what it is, namely a cheap attempt by Cordell to stamp his mark on what was once a great RPG setting.
P.s. Yes, Candlekeep is a place for Realmslore. But I don't view the 4th Edition 'Realms' as part of the Realms setting. Ergo, the 4th Edition stuff is not, in my mind, Realmslore. Which is why I think it should be banned. I mean, we don't allow Eberron lore in here. |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 14:03:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Again, there is no lack of consistency regarding Mystra's death. The set of events precipitating the Spellplague has no precedent in the Lore.
When you (using the plural, here) ignore one of the major factors involved, a factor never present with regard to previous deific deaths, well, at that point, your arguments, not to coin a phrase, "unravel."
Interesting that so many people think there are inconsistencies, then. Just because you refuse to see them doesn't mean they don't exist. Unless you're going to say that everyone else is wrong and you're right.
The designers ignored things first. A lot of people, like the Furry One, have pointed out a lot of factors that were ignored by the designers. The official explanation is the only thing unraveling here. |
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Edited by - Tasker Daze on 03 Oct 2008 14:03:33 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 16:38:33
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Tasker, nobody here's even tried to account for the Abeir/Toril conjunction in their arguments that the Spellplague is somehow inconsistent with previous lore.
Ed Greenwood says that the Spellplague was forecast as far back as the Gray Box. Go tell him its inconsistent.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:03:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Ed Greenwood says that the Spellplague was forecast as far back as the Gray Box. Go tell him its inconsistent.
This isn't a flame. Can you point me to that information? I'd like to take a look. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:09:04
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Where is this supposed conjunction even mentioned? I've seen nothing about it in print.
And before saying Ed forecast (and, by implication, designed) the Sellplague, go back and look at his exact words. I have them handy; they were conveniently brought to us by Krash. I'm emphasizing one bit, in response to your Ed argument.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything and I thought that the wider forum community might appreciate the insight.
There are actually THREE references, all of which will really only be understandable "after the fact." One of them is the "Smashed the black star" curiosity that several scribes have been so fascinated by, and another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading]
The third, "main" reference is on page 40 of the DM'S SOURCEBOOK, referring to Mellomir's claim of finding an "ancient" and "magical" treasure in the vicinity of the Haunted Halls. The dwarves vanishing over the years were fleeing the Realms through gates (portals, linking to other worlds / alternate Prime Material Planes) that are not in the Haunted Halls, but can be reached through the Halls (I think the maps I gave you at GenCon included the "Whisper's Crypt" level, yes?). The dwarves were departing to avoid the coming Spellplague, and the monsters and adventurers vanishing into and emerging from the Halls were also using the gates.
The original text of this entry had Mellomir referring to an unspecified "message of fire."
The original turnover of FR1 THE HAUNTED HALLS OF EVENINGSTAR included a magical "message" formed by flames dancing in midair that briefly appeared to anyone entering the many-pillared room of Encounter 31, that said this: "A great storm of magic is coming, that will twist or maim many. Beware the Black Star." It was edited out because the TSR designers of the day thought it too substantial to print without providing something of an explanation (that there was no wordcount left in the module to provide, and that would open a can of worms they wanted to avoid). This same message appears in front of the gates used the dwarves, monsters, and adventurers, whenever they are approached from the "Realms" side.
So there you have it. Too mangled and chopped-down for anyone studying the Old Grey Box to recognize without this explanation. Sorry. I DID warn everyone it would be nigh-impossible to spot, beforehand.
By the way, there's something else in FR0 tied to this: Sabirine's Specular. A Spell Engine provides a tiny "shelter" from Spellplague effects around itself, and Sabirine chose to die rather than embrace lichdom because she didn't want to endure years of undeath only to be swept away in the Spellplague, or twisted and maimed and left in a world ravaged by the Spellplague.
The Spellplague term isn't mine (I called it "the Doom," or "the Coming of the Black Star" or "THE Spellstorm"), and I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
There you have it.
-- George Krashos
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Ed Greenwood says that the Spellplague was forecast as far back as the Gray Box. Go tell him its inconsistent.
This isn't a flame. Can you point me to that information? I'd like to take a look.
See my quoted bit, above. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Oct 2008 17:10:05 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:23:03
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| Besides, people here aren't arguing that the Spellplague goes against previous canon. It's Mystra's death causing Spellplague level destruction that goes against previous canon, and that's what people are arguing about. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:00:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is this supposed conjunction even mentioned? I've seen nothing about it in print.
The Spellplague began, for all intents and purposes, in the dominions of the gods. Cyric murdered Mystra, unraveling magic in the cosmos and destroying her dominion. At the same time, Abeir and Toril happened into alignment. This cataclysmic coincidence led to upheaval, shaking apart the primeval order, opening up holes in defenses, and reshaping elements..."--FRCG, p. 60
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And before saying Ed forecast (and, by implication, designed) the Sellplague,[sic] go back and look at his exact words. I have them handy; they were conveniently brought to us by Krash. I'm emphasizing one bit, in response to your Ed argument.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything and I thought that the wider forum community might appreciate the insight.
There are actually THREE references, all of which will really only be understandable "after the fact." One of them is the "Smashed the black star" curiosity that several scribes have been so fascinated by, and another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading]
The third, "main" reference is on page 40 of the DM'S SOURCEBOOK, referring to Mellomir's claim of finding an "ancient" and "magical" treasure in the vicinity of the Haunted Halls. The dwarves vanishing over the years were fleeing the Realms through gates (portals, linking to other worlds / alternate Prime Material Planes) that are not in the Haunted Halls, but can be reached through the Halls (I think the maps I gave you at GenCon included the "Whisper's Crypt" level, yes?). The dwarves were departing to avoid the coming Spellplague, and the monsters and adventurers vanishing into and emerging from the Halls were also using the gates.
The original text of this entry had Mellomir referring to an unspecified "message of fire."
The original turnover of FR1 THE HAUNTED HALLS OF EVENINGSTAR included a magical "message" formed by flames dancing in midair that briefly appeared to anyone entering the many-pillared room of Encounter 31, that said this: "A great storm of magic is coming, that will twist or maim many. Beware the Black Star." It was edited out because the TSR designers of the day thought it too substantial to print without providing something of an explanation (that there was no wordcount left in the module to provide, and that would open a can of worms they wanted to avoid). This same message appears in front of the gates used the dwarves, monsters, and adventurers, whenever they are approached from the "Realms" side.
So there you have it. Too mangled and chopped-down for anyone studying the Old Grey Box to recognize without this explanation. Sorry. I DID warn everyone it would be nigh-impossible to spot, beforehand.
By the way, there's something else in FR0 tied to this: Sabirine's Specular. A Spell Engine provides a tiny "shelter" from Spellplague effects around itself, and Sabirine chose to die rather than embrace lichdom because she didn't want to endure years of undeath only to be swept away in the Spellplague, or twisted and maimed and left in a world ravaged by the Spellplague.
The Spellplague term isn't mine (I called it "the Doom," or "the Coming of the Black Star" or "THE Spellstorm"), and I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
There you have it.
-- George Krashos
Didn't mean to imply any more than what I said. I have no idea which designer came up with the Spellplague, or even it's fair to say that a single one of 'em did. So, to answer Ashe, Wooly's supplied one part of what I was talking about. There's also this:
quote:
The Hooded One said
. . . and when the Spellplague notion first surfaced, I privately asked Ed: "This dovetail fits perfectly with that one; sheer coincidence, or - -?"
Whereupon he smiled and replied: "NDAs are darned annoying things, aren't they?"
And for Uzzy, who wrote:
quote:
Besides, people here aren't arguing that the Spellplague goes against previous canon. It's Mystra's death causing Spellplague level destruction that goes against previous canon, and that's what people are arguing about.
Sure, Mystra's death causing Spellplague level destruction goes against previous canon. The published lore, though (see the stuff in blue up top) clearly says that it was not Mystra's death alone that did so. I'm away from my books, but I actually think it hits that same point more than once.
Cheers,
Christopher
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is this supposed conjunction even mentioned? I've seen nothing about it in print.
The Spellplague began, for all intents and purposes, in the dominions of the gods. Cyric murdered Mystra, unraveling magic in the cosmos and destroying her dominion. At the same time, Abeir and Toril happened into alignment. This cataclysmic coincidence led to upheaval, shaking apart the primeval order, opening up holes in defenses, and reshaping elements..."--FRCG, p. 60
Hmm. Okay.
I still don't see why her death caused her domain to unravel, or why that would affect anything else.
And Abeir itself being a separate world is a retcon, which also makes the explanation hard to swallow.
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
There's also this:
quote:
The Hooded One said
. . . and when the Spellplague notion first surfaced, I privately asked Ed: "This dovetail fits perfectly with that one; sheer coincidence, or - -?"
Whereupon he smiled and replied: "NDAs are darned annoying things, aren't they?"
I think you're taking something out of context, here. The Lady Hooded One was specifically referring to the idea that Khelben the Younger could come back. That has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Oct 2008 18:27:43 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
The Spellplague began, for all intents and purposes, in the dominions of the gods. Cyric murdered Mystra, unraveling magic in the cosmos and destroying her dominion. At the same time, Abeir and Toril happened into alignment. This cataclysmic coincidence led to upheaval, shaking apart the primeval order, opening up holes in defenses, and reshaping elements..."--FRCG, p. 60
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
*snip*
The Spellplague term isn't mine (I called it "the Doom," or "the Coming of the Black Star" or "THE Spellstorm"), and I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
There you have it.
-- George Krashos
Cheers,
Christopher
The bit from George implies that Ed had put something out there much like the biblical Armageddon or the Norse Ragnarok. An end times prophecy that looms over the populace and gives something to worry about when 'signs' begin appearing.
As for quoting the FRCG in your debate, that defeats the purpose of your point in that the only part Ed had a hand in was the Glossary (unless I'm mistaken from what I've seen). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 22:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Tasker, nobody here's even tried to account for the Abeir/Toril conjunction in their arguments that the Spellplague is somehow inconsistent with previous lore.
It is in the sense that there never used to be a seperate entity of "Abeir" (Abeir was just part of the name of the planet).
The "Abeir" plot development (which I'll admit I do not fully understand, because after so many threads about it I'm still not sure what exactly Abeir is--a seperate planet? a version of Toril on another plane?) might not be full-blown retcon, but in my view it can arguably be considered inconsistent with the previous lore.
I don't really want to get involved with this debate, I just figured I'd mention that. |
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Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Oct 2008 22:59:54 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 23:46:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The "Abeir" plot development (which I'll admit I do not fully understand, because after so many threads about it I'm still not sure what exactly Abeir is--a seperate planet? a version of Toril on another plane?) might not be full-blown retcon, but in my view it can arguably be considered inconsistent with the previous lore.
-No, you cannot apply information retroactively on this matter, and expect an outcome that does not ruffle any edges of continuity. It's been argued ad nauseum.
-But, that's not my point. 'Abeir' is indeed a planet, that was created as a mirror of 'Toril' that was given to the "Primordials". 'Toril', being a planet, and 'Abeir', being some kind of entity with continents, had to have been a planet. I- and I am just speaking for myself- think that, at times, the various developers were unsure as well.
-As an excellent way to tie in the concept that new information cannot be applied retroactively, Realmspace never mentions the planet of 'Abeir'. Presumably, it is in Realmspace, and has always been in Realmspace, as nothing is mentioned of it being "sent away" anywhere else, nor would that necessarily be in the purview of Ao to do. |
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Elves of Faerūn
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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 03 Oct 2008 23:48:17 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 02:00:47
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| Abeir is a planet, but it exists in a dimension out of phase with the Realmspace we know. Old school D&D players can think of it as an Alternate Prime Material Plane. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 05:56:38
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As long as your putting his back up against a wall, why not hold a gun to his head?
Anyway, I think 4e is meant to be 'vague' for whatever reason (yes, we all know the reasons, but those arguments are growing old fast), so I don't think Brian will or even should give us a 'definitive' answer.
Anyhow, I have proposed something much simpler and more elegant then the 'Abeir Alignment' theory.
In every other case, Mystra/Mystryl was able to come back. That means on some level some part of her still existed (even if it temporarily 'suicided', or was stuck in a mortal shell). We also know that the Chosen each held a little bit of her power (thanks to the ToT), so that what happened during Karsus' Folly would never be repeated (a world without magic, even temporarily).
This time, Mystra was COMPLETELY obliterated. That meant the Weave unraveled totally this time out - something that NEVER happened before. Her Chosen may have made some sort of valiant effort to "hold it together" for awhile (and thats an epic tale in and of itself), but in the end it all came apart.
Whereas before she was gone only for a few seconds, or was trapped in mortal form for a few months (but not dead), this time was different, and thats why things played out the way they did. Nowhere does it state that the Spellplague happened instantaneously, or over the course of a few hours. In fact, its hinted at that 'aftershocks' were being felt decades later!
So yeah, there is a huge difference between this time and the others, and had she been able to somehow come back right away again, things wouldn't have progresseed to the point they did. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2008 05:58:01 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
739 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 10:30:04
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No, no, no, no!
The Sellplague began, for all intents and purposes, in the dominions of the Corporation. Greed murdered Good Design, unraveling common sense in the cosmos and destroying her dominion. At the same time, Sales Fears and Warcraft Envy happened into alignment. This cataclysmic coincidence led to upheaval, shaking apart the primeval order, opening up holes in wallets, and reshaping everything... |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 18:44:08
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MAJOR, BURSTING OUT LOL!
Well done Kyrene, well done! |
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Spellplague According to Prior Canon
