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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 06:57:39
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quote:
So Realms fiction is liable to be cancelled or drastically cut down the moment it's deemed not to support D&D enough, or abandoning specifically Realms creative integrity and marketing drops its sales too far, or whenever the company's profits fall far enough below Hasbro levels to trigger the next rationalization.
After all the efforts done to make 4E FR part of the core D&D experience, I seriously doubt that they have planned such a thing. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 31 Jul 2008 06:58:03 |
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Asator
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 07:32:51
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| This all seems so unfair to people who love reading Forgotten Realms novels because they are fantastic, not because their campaigns are set there. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 07:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In the past we've discussed the pros (mainly distribution and production values) and cons of Wizards of the Coast as a publisher for Realms source material and fiction. Now we know that it won't publish Realms source material after the three scheduled books.
At some point, we should ask the question "What can we do?" (Although, perhaps someone has already done so.)
Is there anyway we can get the FR materials that we want published? Can we do something other than sitting here and taking repeated slaps to the face? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 13:53:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In the past we've discussed the pros (mainly distribution and production values) and cons of Wizards of the Coast as a publisher for Realms source material and fiction. Now we know that it won't publish Realms source material after the three scheduled books.
At some point, we should ask the question "What can we do?" (Although, perhaps someone has already done so.)
Is there anyway we can get the FR materials that we want published? Can we do something other than sitting here and taking repeated slaps to the face?
Since they won't listen to us, all we can do is vote with our wallets. And even that's not guaranteed to work -- considering some of the decisions already made, they might decide to drop the setting rather than fix what they've done to it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 14:14:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since they won't listen to us, all we can do is vote with our wallets. And even that's not guaranteed to work -- considering some of the decisions already made, they might decide to drop the setting rather than fix what they've done to it.
That's depressing, although I'm sure there isn't anything else we can do. However, if the sales are low then I'm sure they'll just drop the setting. But like you say, what else can we do? I do not believe that our complaints will be heard, and even if listened to acted upon.
I guess there are legal constraints and financial problems linked to doing anything by ourselves. Yet it would be nice if we could say, at some point The Realms split into two. One suffered the Spellplague and $E. The other continued lineally with a few events that happened at the time of the split. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 14:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
After all the efforts done to make 4E FR part of the core D&D experience, I seriously doubt that they have planned such a thing.
No one ever plans for sales to go down, though. Just pointing out that it's always a possiblity. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 14:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
After all the efforts done to make 4E FR part of the core D&D experience, I seriously doubt that they have planned such a thing.
No one ever plans for sales to go down, though. Just pointing out that it's always a possiblity.
I wish we could see how many copies of each FR novel sells. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 15:02:42
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| From the customer standpoint, we wouldn't have access to such datta. But, if I understand corporations. owning even one share of Hasbro stock may afford an individual greater voice and access. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 17:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Asator
This all seems so unfair to people who love reading Forgotten Realms novels because they are fantastic, not because their campaigns are set there.
After 2009, there won't be any game products to divert the novel editors from using the Realms as suits them best.quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
At some point, we should ask the question "What can we do?" (Although, perhaps someone has already done so.)
I literally asked 'So what are we going to do about all this?' in an email I sent last night. (Who are you? What do you want? What are you going to do about it?) I don't really know. Tell me if you figure it out. I suspect things will look unpredictably different in a couple of years. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 17:36:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's a shame. Despite the premise of the new RAVENLOFT books, I was actually kinda looking forward to the series.
Yea, I wasn't too keen on them taking someone from RL Earth to Ravenloft (IIRC, that was the premise for the first new Ravenloft book), but I was going to give it a read just in case I liked it. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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WhrenKehrsyn
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 18:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red WalkerI wish we could see how many copies of each FR novel sells.
The Borders I work at sold our first and only copy of Swordmage two days ago. Theres one more on the shelf (we only received 2 to begin with). |
My candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night. But oh, my foes and ah, my friends, it gives a lovely light. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 19:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
No one ever plans for sales to go down, though. Just pointing out that it's always a possiblity.
What's the change then ? At any time in the past, sales going down would have put the FR line in danger.
You mean that FR novels following the 4E FR changes may lead to a drop of sales ? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 19:47:29
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| The change is that sales are more likely to go down now than at previous points: Wizards paying less attention to the Realms, with finite promotional money likely to go to the 'core brands'. The portion of long-time readers who give up after the 100-year shift. A two-year-old setting being inevitably less rich than a 40-year-old one. The death of many popular characters. Loss of popular authors like Elaine Cunningham; others, like Ed, having to write in an unfamiliar world. The requirement of the fiction line to creatively serve D&D rather than the setting. Diminished confidence in the future of the line caused by these cancellations. Against these factors, as far as we know, are the possibility that the new Realms is more appealing to novel readers, draws many new ones in by its novelty, putative mainstream (not actually mainstream but to niches like computer gamers, as I hear) D&D advertising yet to take place; or the books are pruned down to Bob Salvatore and a few others per year. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 20:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The change is that sales are more likely to go down now than at previous points: Wizards paying less attention to the Realms, with finite promotional money likely to go to the 'core brands'. The portion of long-time readers who give up after the 100-year shift. A two-year-old setting being inevitably less rich than a 40-year-old one. The death of many popular characters. Loss of popular authors like Elaine Cunningham; others, like Ed, having to write in an unfamiliar world. The requirement of the fiction line to creatively serve D&D rather than the setting. Diminished confidence in the future of the line caused by these cancellations. Against these factors, as far as we know, are the possibility that the new Realms is more appealing to novel readers, draws many new ones in by its novelty, putative mainstream (not actually mainstream but to niches like computer gamers, as I hear) D&D advertising yet to take place; or the books are pruned down to Bob Salvatore and a few others per year.
FR being more close to the core D&D experience may increase its popularity among the D&D players.
The last Elaine's FR novel is already many years old.
I'm not worried about the ability for Ed to write in 4E realms.
One thing that could make the sales drop is RAS stoping writting after Transitions.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 20:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
At some point, we should ask the question "What can we do?" (Although, perhaps someone has already done so.)
I literally asked 'So what are we going to do about all this?' in an email I sent last night. (Who are you? What do you want? What are you going to do about it?) I don't really know. Tell me if you figure it out. I suspect things will look unpredictably different in a couple of years.
I'm sure many of us here would like to know the outcome of your E-mail. I hope that it helps.
As for figuring it out, the impression I get is that we're all scratching our heads wondering what Loony Tune (Thanks RR) came up with the idea in the first place.
I'm thinking of posting a "What I would have done" post over the weekend. Basically because it's one thing to criticise, its another to suggest solutions. It's all a question of time really. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 20:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
FR being more close to the core D&D experience may increase its popularity among the D&D players.
There've been at least three novel series tied directly to the core D&D experience, and while I don't know their sales figures, none of them made it to hardback. Though a new synergy is always possible. Of course, the more straightforwardly D&D, the less Realms in anything but name, which among other things would harm the Realms brand in the longer term (after the next edition changeover). |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 21:14:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
FR being more close to the core D&D experience may increase its popularity among the D&D players.
There've been at least three novel series tied directly to the core D&D experience, and while I don't know their sales figures, none of them made it to hardback. Though a new synergy is always possible. Of course, the more straightforwardly D&D, the less Realms in anything but name, which among other things would harm the Realms brand in the longer term (after the next edition changeover).
What kind of series are you talking about, things like "Fighters", "Wizards", etc. or something like "Last Mythal" where you can nearly count rounds during combat ?
PSK novels are a lot closer to D&D than Elaine novels were and he is also very popular here, no ?
I think that 4E rules are a lot more easy to deal with for authors if WoTC ask them to follow them when possible than any D&D previous editions. That doesn't mean I pround of the work done to bring FR to 4E D&D and that I approve chosing Bruce Cordell as the main designer 
Other kinds of RPGs would greatly help to reduce the gap between play and novels, but it won't happen so...
Or, in other words, D&D (any edition) isn't very appropriate if the goal for the FR setting is to have a nice match between shared-world-fiction and actual play.
I'm not sure FR have lost so many of its defining features in the 4E transition. The Weave is a good example, it is something that both in fiction and play never got so much impact as it should by it's nature. As they coulnd't embrace it, removing it completly was IMHO a very good move.
However, the excerpts on WoTC are bland and boring, that's the really bad news. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 31 Jul 2008 21:24:19 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 21:17:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
There've been at least three novel series tied directly to the core D&D experience, and while I don't know their sales figures, none of them made it to hardback.
If one of the series you're thinking of is the original Avatar Trilogy, those sold incredibly well and were not hardcover because TSR did not do hardcover or even larger sized trade paperback at the time. Waterdeep was a New York Times bestseller at a time when the company had very few of those.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 21:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
What kind of series are you talking about, things like "Fighters", "Wizards", etc. or something like "Last Mythal" where you can nearly count rounds during combat ?
Sorry, I was being too concise there. I wasn't referring to Realms books at all but to things like the series that started in 2002 with The Savage Caves. So the synergy would be to combine that with an established setting.
I don't think of the Avatar Trilogy as much like any core story of D&D.quote:
I think that 4E rules are a lot more easy to deal with for authors if WoTC ask them to follow them when possible than any D&D previous editions.
I don't know them well enough to comment. What about their gameist orientation?quote:
Or, in other words, D&D (any edition) isn't very appropriate if the goal for the FR setting is to have a nice match between shared-world-fiction and actual play.
I agree that following the letter of the rules of any version of D&D, rather than using them as a resolution system subordinate to the collaborative narration, won't look much like the Realms.quote:
I'm not sure FR have lost so many of its defining features in the 4E transition. The Weave is a good example, it is something that both in fiction and play never got so much impact as it should by it's nature. As they coulnd't embrace it, removing it completly was IMHO a very good move.
For me the Realms is most defined by its feel and design principles, most of which are being dropped or modified wholesale, as I've discussed at length. Much Realms fiction (as well as sourcebooks like Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) does go into the intimate workings of magic, its 'metamagical' and philosophical extensions in Faerūn, which are an inextricable part of its themes and social/historical workings alike. That's the active change, and it's more significant than the fact that they removed the Weave in the backstory rather than altered it.quote:
However, the excerpts on WoTC are bland and boring, that's the really bad news.
If you give up a rich unifying metaphysics in favour of a new ad hoc one, that's liable to be the case. |
Edited by - Faraer on 31 Jul 2008 21:50:52 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 22:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I don't know them well enough to comment. What about their gameist orientation?
The most pro-gamism elements of D&D aren't new, even if AD&D 2E tried to cover them a bit. The whole advancement system (XP, Levels, etc.) was always based on players overcoming challenges.
And 4E did not change the fact that even if the whole game is based on gamist mechanics, the DMG says that the DM must sometime override them to push some agenda or "fun"  .
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I agree that following the letter of the rules of any version of D&D, rather than using them as a resolution system subordinate to the collaborative narration, won't look much like the Realms.
The fact is that the resolution system of D&D (which didn't change much from previous edition) is not a powerful one.
Some RPGs have systems that can work at different level of abstraction and that consider intent (see conflict resolution vs task resolution).
Classes, Hit points, and the kind of spells developped for the need of a gamist fantasy RPG built atop a wargame are also often obstacles for fiction writers.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
For me the Realms is most defined by its feel and design principles, most of which are being dropped or modified wholesale, as I've discussed at length.
Tell me what you consider to be the feel and design principles of the realms (and put emphasis on those you think are dropped/modified), I'm very interested about this issue. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 31 Jul 2008 22:16:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 22:33:35
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| This discussion is interesting, but it's no longer really related to the main topic. Perhaps a new thread is in order? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 00:09:00
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| I think that in this context, "synergy" doesn't mean that the fiction should reflect game play in a slavish or overt fashion. It just means that, if a customer enjoys a book with a brand name like Magic: the Gathering or Forgotten Realms on it, he can also find gaming products bearing the same label. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 01:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This discussion is interesting, but it's no longer really related to the main topic. Perhaps a new thread is in order?
This way for new thread (including a response to Richard). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 01 Aug 2008 01:45:41 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 16:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
What's the change then ? At any time in the past, sales going down would have put the FR line in danger.
You mean that FR novels following the 4E FR changes may lead to a drop of sales ?
No. I meant exactly what I said, and I think what I said was quite clear. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 16:34:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
And 4E did not change the fact that even if the whole game is based on gamist mechanics, the DMG says that the DM must sometime override them to push some agenda or "fun" .
I know, it's a sickening thought, that people play D&D just to have fun. People have forgotten the real purpose of it, which is...hmm, let me get back to you on that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Aug 2008 16:35:35 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 16:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
And 4E did not change the fact that even if the whole game is based on gamist mechanics, the DMG says that the DM must sometime override them to push some agenda or "fun" .
I know, it's a sickening thought, that people play D&D just to have fun. People have forgotten the real purpose of it, which is...hmm, let me get back to you on that.
Problem is, "fun" is not the same for everyone. Personally, I don't have fun when a DM fudges dices to make me win anyway a fight after I made some critical tactical errors.
IMHO, it is in fact much easier to have fun by actually playing a game that fit our playstyle the way it was designed to play.
Fun emerges from playing a game, it's not something someone can force unto the others.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 01 Aug 2008 16:47:20 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 20:48:40
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-What if Wizards sold a license to, Del-Ray Books to publish Forgotten Realms Novels (Or D&D Novels reguardless the setting)? Wouldn't Wizards get money from the License, and a portion of the profits. Kinda like Star Wars Novels? Del-Rey would pay the Authors, pay to publish, pay to market, and WotC would get payed for just using the FR Brand. Money for nothing sounds like a winner to me? Is this possible.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 20:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-What if Wizards sold a license to, Del-Ray Books to publish Forgotten Realms Novels (Or D&D Novels reguardless the setting)? Wouldn't Wizards get money from the License, and a portion of the profits. Kinda like Star Wars Novels? Del-Rey would pay the Authors, pay to publish, pay to market, and WotC would get payed for just using the FR Brand. Money for nothing sounds like a winner to me? Is this possible.
Yes, if Hasbro and Wizards decide to go this route. Another publisher could take over the editing of the lines, would hire authors and so on. However, the outside house would still need to submit everything they do to Hasbro for approval. Several people at Hasbro and then Wizards would review every step of the product's creation and accept the submitted material, ask for changes, or reject it.
So while WotC could reduce their cost for creating and publishing the books this way--shifting the burden for editorial services, printing, distribution, and advertising to the outside house--they would still need to pay staff at Hasbro and WotC to review all the licensed material and keep track of continuity. They would need to make enough on the license fees to pay for that approval and continuity work to be done in house. And the outside publisher would not be able to do anything with the books without the explicit approval of Hasbro.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 03 Aug 2008 21:00:53 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 21:01:36
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-Cool thanks for the insight! 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 21:33:28
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It's been my experience (admittedly limited, but I have been through this once, with the novel line based on Marvel Comics) that when the license for a particular franchise moves from one publisher to another, many of the writers who have been working in the shared world aren't invited along for the ride. The new editor tends to offer the assignments to writers he's already worked with.
Now obviously, wherever the FR went, Ed and Bob would be more than welcome to go with them. But if you enjoy the work that others are currently doing in the setting, you might want to think twice before praying to Waukeen that this particular business transaction comes to pass. (Or, conversely, if you think we all suck, then maybe it's time to sacrifice a chicken or two.)
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Cancellation of Eberron and Discovery novel line
