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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 15:35:12
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After the comments about Halruaa not being a "core Realms" experience, I'm not surprised. I must say, Halruaan and Mercenary are not two words I would have generally associated with one another. Plus, Halruaa had the same "problem" as Thay, that being that some of its structure was based on the traditional schools of magic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:06:37
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Oh, HELLS NO! Nuking Halruaa, too? That pisses me off more than any thing else they've screwed! 
The pessimist in me is finding it hard not to believe all existing Realms fans are simply being tossed to the wolves. Why in the name of Lurue can't they have simply created a new setting, rather than putting such a much-loved and well-read thru the shredder? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 17:47:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why in the name of Lurue can't they have simply created a new setting, rather than putting such a much-loved and well-read thru the shredder?
The reason I'm guessing goes by the name of "Dri$$t".  |
Edited by - BlackAce on 12 Jan 2008 17:48:40 |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 20:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
It's still not the Realms I know and love.
I’m going through King’s Dark Tower series and as I read the essay what kept rolling through my head was “…and the world has moved on.” (Hell, I make may some version of that as my new sig.)
So, they are moving the time-line up by a century rather than just a decade. Established plotlines and villains are tossed out (i.e. Thay and its civil war, Sembia as a free nation of rapacious merchants, Mulhorandi’s conquest of Unther) in exchange for the perils of sinister geography and cliché’s with new names.
The new design seems to be a strange attempt at throwing everything out and keeping as much as possible, like an ill thought out attempt to eat the cake and have it too. To paraphrase something I posted elsewhere, the group think of corporate decision making produces things like this and the break up of Spider Man’s marriage. No wonder Greenwood seems to be walking away.
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"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
Edited by - The Grumpy Celt on 12 Jan 2008 20:22:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 20:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
No wonder Greenwood seems to be walking away.
Walking away? How is being responsible for more than a quarter of the FRCG walking away? 50,000 words is like half a novel. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 20:59:29
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I think the problem isn't groupthink in general so much as decisions being made by -- maybe from business points of view, but certainly from the Realms' -- the wrong groups. The succession of editors and brand managers with their shiny gimmicks. The discussion group at Wizards, as reported by Chris Perkins, in which quote:
we had to make an argument for the change, and there were people in the room who were like "Mm, I don't know," and there were people in the room like "Yes, do it now, do it do it do it!"
Cooperative worldbuilding can be wonderful, but few people have figured out how to do it on the Realms' scale, and not including people who don't like the world is a good start.
Walking away is an exaggeration, but equally no one should mistake Ed's contribution to the FRCG as whole-hearted endorsement. |
Edited by - Faraer on 12 Jan 2008 21:04:11 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 21:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Walking away? How is being responsible for more than a quarter of the FRCG walking away? 50,000 words is like half a novel.
I willing the bet that the parts of the FRCG that Ed is writing are the parts of the Realms that aren't getting nuked. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 21:40:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
To paraphrase something I posted elsewhere, the group think of corporate decision making produces things like this and the break up of Spider Man’s marriage. No wonder Greenwood seems to be walking away.
Boy am I glad I'm the only one morning the ruination of Spider-Man and the Realms. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 22:21:48
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This feels to me as if Hollywood is remaking a classic.
SciFi Channel's "Tin Man" leaps to mind.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 22:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm glad to see the areas that survived, particularly Waterdeep. Baldur's Gate is now the largest city in the Realms, though? What happened to Calimshan?
I guess Calimport didn't have a huge flood of refugees piling in. Heck, it might have even had people fleeing from there, for all we know. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 22:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Looks like Halruaa is gone too ...
http://www.gleemax.com/Comms/Pages/Communities/BlogPost.aspx?blogpostid=33552&pagemode=2&blogid=5122
-- George Krashos
I'm sad again.
This doesn't feel to me like organic development of the setting. And yes, many of the things I loved about the Realms (probably a lot of the "less popular" aspects) are being excised. I can't be positive about this.
If someone likes these results, the more power to them, but I don't. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 22:56:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The pessimist in me is finding it hard not to believe all existing Realms fans are simply being tossed to the wolves. Why in the name of Lurue can't they have simply created a new setting, rather than putting such a much-loved and well-read thru the shredder?
I've been thinking the same thing. If they made a new setting that had all these elements, I might well have loved it.
But I can't say I'm happy about having the rug pulled out from under the Realms like this. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Jan 2008 22:58:01 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 23:05:57
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I'm thinking that they've come to the conclusion that there is no room in the market to have three settings.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 23:23:23
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We have to guess they juggled the numbers and forecast that this particular Frankenstein would bring the most revenue per investment, bearing in mind the Realms' name value and the work involved in building a world from scratch. What else? But no one should expect in this kind of compromise that the things we value about the Realms won't be compromised too -- it would be extraordinary -- and no one should pretend it can please everyone equally.
One day we'll know much more. I'd like to see some of Wizards' market research, for one thing. |
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chance87
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 23:51:19
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Introducing...."GAMMA REALMS"!
Tada!
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Taliferno
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 00:39:11
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Pfft, I for one like most of the new changes. The only thing I'm not to sure about is the Dragonborn, which seems too much like they have been plopped down into unther. I could end up liking them to once we find out more about them and their situation, such as:
1: Did the humans of unther survive?
2: If so, what is their relationship with the dragonborn (co-operation or enslavement?)
3: What is the dragonborn relationship with the other realms around them? (war I would hope)
4: How’s Mulhorand doing? (Ignoring Drizzt)
What I see as the role of Unther in 3rd edition (an area where dangerous political intrigue takes place, a chance to be involved in an epic conflict between great powers, a chance to be a freedom fighter) might not have changed depending on the answers to the above questions, in which case I will like the Realmsian Dragonborn. If they are just the core dragonborn shoved into Unther then they can just **** off).
The plaguelands don’t seem to be the eberron mournlands to me (though i'm not to familiar with the setting, I own the campaign guide and that’s about it -am I right in assuming a barren landscape with undead, warforged and living magic running about?) but more like the zone in the STALKER films, novels and games. I've already included something similar in my own realms. It doesn’t bother me.
Maybe it’s because I don’t have as much invested in the old realms as the rest of you (only been gaming in the realms and D&D since the start of 3rd edition) but I'm actually excited about 4th edition.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 00:48:11
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What do you think you'll be able to do in Realms 2008 better than in the current Realms? What do you find exciting about it?
(As ever, genuine questions.) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 01:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Taliferno
1: Did the humans of unther survive?
2: If so, what is their relationship with the dragonborn (co-operation or enslavement?)
3: What is the dragonborn relationship with the other realms around them? (war I would hope)
4: How’s Mulhorand doing? (Ignoring Drizzt)
1. Your best bet is probably one of Baldur's Gate gettos (yeah, I know, it's a long walk from Unther, but hey, "don't question mah ottoritaeee!!!"  )
2. The dragonborn have enslaved anything not dragonborn.
3. You bet! it's a meritocracy, remember! 
4. Mulhorand has been completely destroyed, and their gods are no more. The few survivors worship the newly ascended Torm (who has not only absorbed Tyr, but Horus-Re, Anhur, etc.) |
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Taliferno
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 01:56:06
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What can I do in the new realms that I can't do in the old realms and why am I excited?
There is nothing as a dm (or any other dm with a bit of imagination) that I could not do in the 'old realms' that I could do in the 'new realms'. I admit that. But if anyone thought that WOTC were going to update the realms to 4th edition without making any changes to it then they were mistaken. WOTC/Hasbro is out to make money first-as any company which wishes to succeed should do. Rather than throwing a temper tantrum like some irate internet fans seem to be doing (now theres a suprise on the internet), I'm going to roll with and accept whatever changes are made.
As to why I'm excited is much easier:
.The new realms had been made to fit in with the new 4th edition ruleset, which so far from what I've seen, is better than 3rd editon. Merely converting the current realms to 4th edition-especially with the changes made to magic and monsters-wouldn't really work.
.Getting rid of Mystra and the Weave. Although I dont really agree with the current downsizing of the pantheon, this is one change I can get behind (and its not the hardest job in the world for me to reintorduce Gods that have been left out).
.I'm curious to find out what happens in the realms storyline.
.New adventure paths and opportunities. I already know what the first campaign arc for my 4th edition campaign is going to be-an investigation into the waterdeep statues and why they havent been reactivated yet. Can they be reactivated? Are they back to the guardians they once were, or will they, when reactivated, go on a rampage? Who else is trying to get control of the statues?
.Updates to areas that haven't been touched in years, such as the Moonshaes ( I was reading the novels long before I became a D&D player and the Moonshae trilogy was my first introduction to the realms), and working in new 4th edition monsters and mechanics around them (such as the fomorians).
. The spellplague did it. Its lazy dming but if I ever want to include a new race, monster, type of magic, etc into the realms thats all I have to say. I have played with a player (thankfully briefly) who insisted that I keep to the 'core' realms (as in, what is stated word for word in the guides). Myself or the rest of the players didn't enjoy it very much. Which leads me to...
. I will make it my realms. Just as I made my third edition campaign my realms. In third edition if some new supplement produced something that is contrary to my vision of the realms or if Ed said something new in his thread I might find it fascinating but I wont force it in. There is nothing stopping me from doing the same in 4th edition.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 02:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Taliferno
But if anyone thought that WOTC were going to update the realms to 4th edition without making any changes to it then they were mistaken.
I highly doubt anyone on this forum expected no changes to occur. People are disappointed at the manner and extent of the changes, as well as the rationale behind some of them.
quote:
WOTC/Hasbro is out to make money first-as any company which wishes to succeed should do. Rather than throwing a temper tantrum like some irate internet fans seem to be doing (now theres a suprise on the internet), I'm going to roll with and accept whatever changes are made.
Are you saying that the only two things a fan can do is either "throw a temper tantrum" (and I'd be careful about characterizing the members of this forum in such a way) or "roll with it" and just accept everything without comment?
If so, I would have to disagree.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Jan 2008 02:27:41 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 02:33:20
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| I usually stay pretty calm until people start to tell me what emotional state I'm in when I post. Then I start to get a bit irate. Also, I want WOTC to make money, but only if they provide me with a product I want to buy. If not, then I can spend that money on Paizo's stuff or on Castlemourn sourcebooks or what have you. It cuts both ways. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 05:35:07
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[Looks at his brother knight above, and resheathes his sword...]
Yes. It comes down to this: money talks. And my money will be talking to companies other than WotC from now on (now that I have completed my 3.5 collection)
My players and I are actually looking forward to explore all the 3.5 stuff we haven't touched yet, including CoV substition classes, psionics, and most importantly, Powers of Faerun as the players have just gone Epic last session... |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 08:14:59
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| This article certainly reads better than the divine soap opera tripe in the otherwise excellent Grand History of the Realms. I still don't think I will convert... but I may buy it just the same. |
Best
E |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 13:23:54
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quote:
WOTC/Hasbro is out to make money first-as any company which wishes to succeed should do. Rather than throwing a temper tantrum like some irate internet fans seem to be doing (now theres a suprise on the internet), I'm going to roll with and accept whatever changes are made.
You know, rather then just accepting whatever changes are made, you could do that great thing you're allowed to do as a consumer and just not buy the damn thing.
Furthermore, WoTC provide Realms forums for a reason. Feedback is always wanted, so we are giving it to them. Easy eh? |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 15:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not really loving it at all - I HATE Draconians.
I'm just left with a great big feeling of 'Meh' at the moment.
Well, you don't like all this dragonmarked Eberron stuff either, I guess?
Plaguelands? Lands elevated hundreds of feet, Llurth Dreier apparently blown (LP III maybe?) "down". They have essentially recreated the "good" (i.e. -selling) parts of the Realms in a setting filled with tons of monsters, ruins and newly explorable lands. Welcome to the New Realms for the videogamer generation. Obviously, there will always be the Old Realms* for those who cherish them.
Anyway, Rich Baker's Good fortune and good adventuring until next time! left me laughing. He just told us that whatever campaign you run within the Realms is about to go bust, especially if you play long-living folk, and whishes you well with all omens set for destruction. 
*Well, I think I copyright that word while I have a chance to do this |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 13 Jan 2008 17:12:41 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 17:05:13
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I was a little shocked at first, but examining the changes objectively (i.e. not seeing it through the lens of near 20 years of experience with the realms), I'd have to say that I'm rather excited about all of this.
I've already put down my pre-order for the new Core Rule books, and I'm definitely converting.
I'm kind of glad that so many of you are not though. You see, I have an entire collection of FR material that (94 years later) ammounts to a 20k page Lost Empires of Faerun. I anticipate selling it on ebay, and I'm glad that you're willing to provide a market for all of these rare acquisitions. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 17:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I was a little shocked at first, but examining the changes objectively (i.e. not seeing it through the lens of near 20 years of experience with the realms), I'd have to say that I'm rather excited about all of this.
I've already put down my pre-order for the new Core Rule books, and I'm definitely converting.
I'm kind of glad that so many of you are not though. You see, I have an entire collection of FR material that (94 years later) ammounts to a 20k page Lost Empires of Faerun. I anticipate selling it on ebay, and I'm glad that you're willing to provide a market for all of these rare acquisitions.
I think you will regret selling them in a very short time. Reconsider. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 17:29:32
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| Though, if you really do want to sell them, let us on Candlekeep have first crack at them please? |
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SiCK_Boy
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 19:10:52
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There are still some good sides... they went 94 years with only a single RSE! That's reducing the pace of RSE for me :)
The main problem I see with this new version of the Realms is the impossibility to keep ongoing characters and adventures going. 94 years is way too long a gap to fill, and most characters would be dead of old age in that span of time. The only easy way I can see to keep an existing group going is to have them put in stasis and awakening a hundred years later... Still, that could make some interesting adventure, particularly if the players are careful not to read the new FRCS, with just the DM knowing the details and having them go through this new world, "discovering" again the Realms.
Also, we'll have to see how much the actual (circa 1355 to 1375 DR) events still have an impact on the Realms a hundred years later. For me, that's the saddest part: to realize things that were oh so crucial at a time aren't worth anything in the future (and even though it's 100 years in the Realms, it's just just a couple years in our lives). For exemple, are events like the silence of Lolth even remembered or is it just now a footnote at the bottom of history books?
Finaly, I hope the new rules will provide some form of interesting mechanism for time travel, because with access to such detailed information on both the past and the present (much more than we ever had on any "past" era in the Realms), it could make the experience worthwhile (with just a bit of lenience in dealing with time paradoxes). |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 20:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by SiCK_Boy
The main problem I see with this new version of the Realms is the impossibility to keep ongoing characters and adventures going. 94 years is way too long a gap to fill, and most characters would be dead of old age in that span of time. The only easy way I can see to keep an existing group going is to have them put in stasis and awakening a hundred years later... Still, that could make some interesting adventure, particularly if the players are careful not to read the new FRCS, with just the DM knowing the details and having them go through this new world, "discovering" again the Realms.
...
Finaly, I hope the new rules will provide some form of interesting mechanism for time travel, because with access to such detailed information on both the past and the present (much more than we ever had on any "past" era in the Realms), it could make the experience worthwhile (with just a bit of lenience in dealing with time paradoxes).
Brian R. James gave me an answer.
It's short and simplist but it exists ! :
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
What will become our PC in 95 years ? Humans and short life span PCs will be dead... during this 95 year-old-no-events-period.
I cannot do the link with my PCs today, their death (that I really refuse !) and 1479 DR !
The Campaign Guide will have advice for moving your characters to the new time period (time portal, temporal stasis, playing descendants, etc...)
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"Today is a good day to smile",
Fillow Big'n'Book Mahlemiut 'Lead-dog', Son of Garl, Wanderer of the Masked Leaf and Namer of Oghma.
- Fight in the arena and have fun ! : La brute.com
- Feel free to take part to these projects : Post-Spellplague bibliography ; 4E index project ; Taverns and inns of the Realms ; Dogs of the Realms ; Descriptions of places in the novels ; forums, RPG, FR Abbreviations and Acronyms
- Come and have a look at the already asked questions from the Forgotten Realms Trivia Challenge
I am a French FR fan, so please forgive my lapses in English language and do not hesitate to correct me. Thanks a lot. |
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Dragon Features: Countdown to the Realms
