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yargarth
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 06:46:17
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While i was pouring over the forums. i realized something. I do not believe i have ever seen a kingdom or city that has a Naval force. In the FR it is mainly Pirates, independent merchants, or mercenaries/bounty hunters. I was wondering is there a Kingdom that has a Naval force?
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"You take a step, then another. That's the journey. But to take a step with your eyes open is not a journey at all, it's a remaking of your own mind."
-Orson Scott Card
Ender in Exile |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 07:10:51
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There have been noted naval forces for various political powers in the Realms. Like Sembia for example -- it was once referenced as being "one of the largest standing navies on the Inner Sea." And the navy of the City of Splendors, or even that of Evermeet, as another example. As for a kingdom with a navy, there's Cormyr, of course. There are others as well.
The lore on the various navies is scattered. I suggest you look over Sea of Fallen Stars, Pirates of the Fallen Stars, Volo's Guide to the North, Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, Calimport, and Empires of the Shining Sea. As well, most of the other various sources which cover cities and/or geographical/port locations which sit along most of the coastal regions in the Realms. You'll find tidbits here and there which focus on certain naval elements for the detailed political powers.
Search through Ed's replies here at Candlekeep as well. He's managed to touch on the subject of navies and various other ocean-going aspects in the past. |
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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 08:27:12
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| One word. Evermeet. The elves of Evermeet have an incredible navy. It even includes Spelljamming ships if I'm not mistaken. |
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maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 08:30:12
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Some tidbits in regard to naval forces over the years:
the introduction of steel lined hulls in the Moonsea (can't remember if that was Zhentil Keep of Mulmaster)
an "aircraft carrier" style boat Calimshan was trialing (FR3 Empire of the Sands)
Those two are the main things that stick in my head without refering to my resources. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 13:16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by slay_4_pay
One word. Evermeet. The elves of Evermeet have an incredible navy. It even includes Spelljamming ships if I'm not mistaken.
Evermeet does have a number of Men-O-War of its own. I've not seen any particular reference to them actually leaving the atmosphere, it may be that they're kept close to home, in order to act as additional line of defense. It's possible that they may not even have proper spelljamming helms -- at least, not ones capable of interstellar travel.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 14:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by slay_4_pay
One word. Evermeet. The elves of Evermeet have an incredible navy. It even includes Spelljamming ships if I'm not mistaken.
Evermeet does have a number of Men-O-War of its own. I've not seen any particular reference to them actually leaving the atmosphere, it may be that they're kept close to home, in order to act as additional line of defense. It's possible that they may not even have proper spelljamming helms -- at least, not ones capable of interstellar travel.
I'm pretty sure that the Starwings are slightly smaller, home-grown versions of Men-O-War, and are not capable of interstellar travel. I think that info is in Elves of Evermeet, but I don't have that handy.  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 15:29:02
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"Starwings are fully capable of interplantetary flight, but are generally kept close to home."
"Power type: Major or minor helm" page 87
Total number of these are/was 6 |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 11 Jan 2008 15:53:50 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 15:44:27
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Wooly, you may have been thinking about the bit that tells us the Starwings are not used to "escape from Toril, but to use as a reserve of flying vessels capable of attacking enemies from above."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 16:08:02
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| Hmm, my bad. I coulda sworn they were limited to local action, but I guess not. That was, I think, one of the things that should have been in the Spelljammer material - helms that didn't do interplanetary, but otherwise functioned the same as major or minor helms. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 16:53:32
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I'm not sure the state of the Thavian navy but I remember it being relatively significant. I seem to remember that they aren't numerous but they have firepower to rival anyone.
I'd assume that with the establishment of various enclaves that there may be a desire in Thay to increase their navy in order to move goods more efficiently. They may just use transportation magic or be self sufficient to the point where they don't need to be moving large amounts of goods though.
And I'm not even sure what's up with Thay at this point. This is from older sources (filtered by my memory, which is sorta like swiss cheese sometimes *g*). So take this opinion with a grain of salt. :) |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 18:10:48
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You're right, ShadezofDis. See p. 152 of Unapproachable East. The flagship of the navy is the Red Scourge, crewed by 5000(!) sailors and wizards. It doesn't say much besides it's significant, more powerful a navy than Aglaron's, and that particular ship is the best in it's fleet.
There's also a section in the Shining South detailing Halruaan Skyships, but nothing about the "navy" itself. Basically I'm assuming they have a small one because they have the skyships, but the population of Halruaa is so small that it's probably not a very large force. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 18:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
I'm not sure the state of the Thavian navy but I remember it being relatively significant. I seem to remember that they aren't numerous but they have firepower to rival anyone.
I'd assume that with the establishment of various enclaves that there may be a desire in Thay to increase their navy in order to move goods more efficiently. They may just use transportation magic or be self sufficient to the point where they don't need to be moving large amounts of goods though.
And I'm not even sure what's up with Thay at this point. This is from older sources (filtered by my memory, which is sorta like swiss cheese sometimes *g*). So take this opinion with a grain of salt. :)
Having just run a Thayan (well, Maligor) attack on Telflamm, I can state most emphatically that Thay has an important navy. Ed answered a question of mine (in 2005?) about Thayan bombards, which are magical projectile throwers and the most powerful weapons deployed in the Sea of Fallen Stars.
The 3E Waterdeep book also has a precis of the Waterdhavian navy, as I recall, while Calimshan has a very large navy and a dedicated military shipyard which is described in Calimport and Empires of the Sands.
Al-Qadim is also on Toril (southwest of Shou Lung and far to the southeast of Faerun), and the Land of Fate boxed set discusses some of the local navies. (Corsairs is dedicated to piracy and such in the local waters.)
If the God of the Mystic Search Engine favors you, you may succeed in finding the scroll which has a list of (mostly) pirate ships, their ship classes, and their names. Two ships from the novel Crusade spring to mind immediately: Welleran and Ouroboros. (Google 'em and you'll see why the names are so memorable!)
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 11 Jan 2008 18:36:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 18:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
You're right, ShadezofDis. See p. 152 of Unapproachable East. The flagship of the navy is the Red Scourge, crewed by 5000(!) sailors and wizards. It doesn't say much besides it's significant, more powerful a navy than Aglaron's, and that particular ship is the best in it's fleet.
There's also a section in the Shining South detailing Halruaan Skyships, but nothing about the "navy" itself. Basically I'm assuming they have a small one because they have the skyships, but the population of Halruaa is so small that it's probably not a very large force.
I don't think the skyships qualify as a regular navy, though. They are each independent operators -- each built and crewed by one archmage. They can certainly work together, as a navy, but they don't really fit into the classic mold of a navy. |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 23:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think the skyships qualify as a regular navy, though. They are each independent operators -- each built and crewed by one archmage. They can certainly work together, as a navy, but they don't really fit into the classic mold of a navy.
Do you think it would be more like a militia navy? Honestly, I'm not sure there is a real historic example of such a thing though so it's kind of difficult envisioning how that would even work. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 23:47:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think the skyships qualify as a regular navy, though. They are each independent operators -- each built and crewed by one archmage. They can certainly work together, as a navy, but they don't really fit into the classic mold of a navy.
Do you think it would be more like a militia navy? Honestly, I'm not sure there is a real historic example of such a thing though so it's kind of difficult envisioning how that would even work.
Regulay Navy works under a command and control and paid all the time.
Militia Navy (and yes there are histrocic examples of this in Earth histroy) are under command amd control for the duration, sometimes not well paid (if at all), as a duty to the Nation State.
As such it is posible that the Halruaan Skyships are formed into an organizied Navy from time to time at the needs of the Nation State. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 23:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think the skyships qualify as a regular navy, though. They are each independent operators -- each built and crewed by one archmage. They can certainly work together, as a navy, but they don't really fit into the classic mold of a navy.
Additionally, as I recall, the older Shining South tome tells us that the Halruaans guard the secrets of their skyships most zealously. If significant numbers of skyships were to be used to supplement the regular naval forces of Halruaa, there's every possibility that one may be either damaged and/or grounded, and then captured by an enemy.
You could find perhaps two or three used, on ocassion... as a form of "air-superiority" for either naval or land-based Halruaan military forces I suppose.
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 00:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Regulay Navy works under a command and control and paid all the time.
Militia Navy (and yes there are histrocic examples of this in Earth histroy) are under command amd control for the duration, sometimes not well paid (if at all), as a duty to the Nation State.
As such it is posible that the Halruaan Skyships are formed into an organizied Navy from time to time at the needs of the Nation State.
It's not that I don't believe you but I'd like to learn more about it. What's an example of a milita navy? Just the name of a war or a country and time period would be great, I can probably take it from there. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 00:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dirtywick
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Regulay Navy works under a command and control and paid all the time.
Militia Navy (and yes there are histrocic examples of this in Earth histroy) are under command amd control for the duration, sometimes not well paid (if at all), as a duty to the Nation State.
As such it is posible that the Halruaan Skyships are formed into an organizied Navy from time to time at the needs of the Nation State.
It's not that I don't believe you but I'd like to learn more about it. What's an example of a milita navy? Just the name of a war or a country and time period would be great, I can probably take it from there.
World World II, Dunkirt rescue (from UK) is one ourstanding example of a fleet under short term command and control.
Older times include commission of privateers (pirates acting for the flag, attacking ships at war with nation, there though was limited control and command).
Modern times include civilian forces committed to Nation Defense.
Examples include: Merchant Marines pressed into service in WW II for conveys, USA Coast Guard perhaps though that was always para milatary. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 01:14:15
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quote:
Older times include commission of privateers (pirates acting for the flag, attacking ships at war with nation, there though was limited control and command).
This is a good example that makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time picturing what a private citizen would be doing with a warship. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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yargarth
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 06:19:28
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quote:
Examples include: Merchant Marines pressed into service in WW II for conveys, USA Coast Guard perhaps though that was always para milatary.
The Modern USA Coast Guard is the only branch of the military that has a peace time mission. they also do lots of homeland of security things.the only thing the other branches has on them is ROTC. Which sucks. But they are a Branch of the USA military. |
"You take a step, then another. That's the journey. But to take a step with your eyes open is not a journey at all, it's a remaking of your own mind."
-Orson Scott Card
Ender in Exile |
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yargarth
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 06:33:02
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| it depresses me that this aspect of the realms is for the most part ignored. seeing how in history ships have played a major part of our life. |
"You take a step, then another. That's the journey. But to take a step with your eyes open is not a journey at all, it's a remaking of your own mind."
-Orson Scott Card
Ender in Exile |
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slay_4_pay
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 07:43:54
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quote:
This is a good example that makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time picturing what a private citizen would be doing with a warship.
My history is a little fuzzy on this so I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that many of the privately owned cargo and freight ships drafted into WWII were modified with some fairly basic weaponry (ie. a couple of large guns to be used against other ships and aircraft).
Also, as a private citizen I know what I would do with a warship. The worlds most reckless and dangerous booze cruise. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 21:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by slay_4_pay
quote:
This is a good example that makes a lot of sense. I was having a hard time picturing what a private citizen would be doing with a warship.
My history is a little fuzzy on this so I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that many of the privately owned cargo and freight ships drafted into WWII were modified with some fairly basic weaponry (ie. a couple of large guns to be used against other ships and aircraft).
Also, as a private citizen I know what I would do with a warship. The worlds most reckless and dangerous booze cruise.
The authorization is called a "letter of marque and reprisal." The two most famous privateers in history are Captain Kidd and John Paul Jones.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 18:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by yargarth
it depresses me that this aspect of the realms is for the most part ignored. seeing how in history ships have played a major part of our life.
I think a large part of the problem is that it's difficult to write rules for ships. I've read a bunch of different systems for ship to ship combat and they've all been pretty bad. Further, it's difficult for the party to really feel good about the maneuvering and such. Not to say that ship to ship combat or interaction can't be really fun, but it's a very difficult situation to govern.
If you're just talking lore, then I don't really see the lore on ships being that slim. It's not huge but there isn't much when it comes to transportation anyhow. |
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yargarth
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 07:20:13
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I could see how ships could be a problem just because so much of how they operate depends on the environment. it personally just did not make a lot of sense that some of these city states on the sword coast base are cities that depend on trade and yet pirates are VERY common. it would make sense for a city like Luskan to protect this investment. (if the area around a port is safe it is a much more attractive destination) i have not read any of the source books (i know i should) and i know i am just knit picking over a tiny detail. But boats have always been critical to societies, especially if they lack combustion engines.
i just think that it would be really cool if there was a society that had a navy and there was a novel about it. IE a fighter in the Calimshan battling it out with pirates. |
"You take a step, then another. That's the journey. But to take a step with your eyes open is not a journey at all, it's a remaking of your own mind."
-Orson Scott Card
Ender in Exile |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 07:29:12
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I never quite locked into the FR naval tradition (Evermeet, etc). It always seemed to be complicated with a lot of magical rigamarole...
My favorite FR sailing tale is Deudermont's, though. A nice combination of magic and naval know-how...good stuff. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 12:10:38
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Luskan is actually the hive for the trouble on the North and Sword Coast where all the pirates meet, as well at Skull Port and the Nelanther(sp?) Isles I believe on the Western Coast, but don't qoute me on the last one.
Moonshae Isles I believe also has a large fleet due to their past history of being pirates, but is more respectable by the time 1372 rolls around. Don't know about what it's like in 1479 currently though, only have read the source material once on the setting.
But most certainly there has been many important instances when navy shaped change in the world. The Greek fleet vs the Persian fleet in ancient times. Another would be the English fleet (which was almost nonexistant at the time) vs the Spanish Armada that allowed England to become a naval empire. And my final example, the Ironclad battle in the American Civil War that literally over night made every ship in the world obsolete.
Well this is running longer then I thought so I think I'll just end it here. If you want to read about naval battles I really suggest you do on any era, if you haven't already. It's really fascinating to see how it developed over the centuries. Anyways, that is all I will say I strongly know about the Realms navies that hasn't already been spoken about by other sages far knowledgable in the lore than me.
Hope it helps.
~Ghost King~
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Edited by - Ghost King on 21 Dec 2008 12:14:34 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2008 : 21:59:38
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Good examples of a "citizen navy" are the merchant fleets of Venice and other Italian City-States. While each city maintained very strong navies for trade, Venice in particular also had a sizable "Merchant Marine" in that its powerful merchants could, and did, have their own war-worthy craft to defend their interests.
Scandinavian people, prior to the consolidation of central powers in Norway and Denmark, had only a citizen type navy. Individual men could own a ship, though beholden to their higher lord; and could do with the ships what they wanted. While seen as Pirates and worse by their targets, they were for all intents and purposes simply taking part in a cultural role. Going a-viking (not using the right spelling here I'm sure) was a cultural norm to them; no less so than Khazar (sp?) raiders, Bulgarian Brigands and etc. Swedes were most noted as independent minded "business-men" in the steppes of Russia; but coming together to make a "citizen" navy...such as an attack upon Byzantium.
The Japanese also were seen primarily as pirates, but in fact they were more akin to vikings in their raiding styles. They were simply taking part in what was, to them, a normal aspect of their culture: preying upon the weak for personal gain. While the Chinese and Koreans saw them as pirates, the Japanese nobles saw them as a taxable asset.
There are lots of examples of "citizen" navies out there that would come together to fight against an invander or for an attack of their own...these are just a few.
In the Forgotten Realms, I can think of a couple places that have a non-permanent military:
Luskan is an obvious choice. Its naval power does rely on independents to supplement its numbers.
The Freesails come to mind, though they operate for three different countries that I'm aware of: Cormyr, Sembia, and Impiltur.
Waterdeep could have a great number of merchant ships to call on in times of war if needed...though I don't know enough about the city to say certainly. Waterdeep seems sort of a Venice to me anyway; but without the Canals.
Amn no doubt has a large merchant line of ships capable of concentrating together into a formidable fleet.
In my own FR, the Zhentarim agents who are ship-merchants frequently were called upon by Manshoon to supplement his needs for Zhentil Keep. I usually only had a ship or three do this at a time though; usually when a large number of individuals had to be moved and Manshoon didn't want Zhentil Keep's own navy to do the work.
That's about all I ever gave thought to... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 15:51:25
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| Weren't the Zhents rebuilding their navy (small but still considered a navy) after Zhentil Keep was all but destroyed except for the foreign quarter across the river? |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2008 : 21:41:55
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| I'm thinking that in Kara-Tur, particularly the Shou Empire, there would have to be a pretty sweet naval force because it is so heavily based off of China, which used to have some really awesome ships and kick everyone else's butts in naval exploration. |
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Naval forces in the FR
