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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  15:35:30  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How would you even "suppress the ascension of a god" anyways?

I mean, it's not like Shar took control of the Weave and its powers when Mystra died. If she did, then Shar would have even more power now.

Don't tell me she's got the power of a goddess locked in a box somewhere in her dark and spooky bedchamber...

Or is there something different in this situation? Because usually when a god murders another god, the murderer takes the portfolio of the murdered god, right? However, this time Cyric has been imprisoned by the other Greater Gods so perhaps he never took the powers of Mystra and it's sorta just floating around somewhere...


"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe

402 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  16:00:49  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage  Send ShadezofDis an AOL message Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

How would you even "suppress the ascension of a god" anyways?


Well, first you'd probably have to identify the likely successor/successors (maybe Mystra had a backup plan!) and the Goddess of Secrets and the God of Intrigue should be able to do that sorta thing (please, ignore the published actions of these Gods/Goddesses for this exercise *g*). You then, either through allies or through followers, set up kidnap teams to grab up these successors and when you make your move the teams jump the successors. You then put the successors in a prison, probably much like the prison Grazzt used for Waulkeen (oh, I'm to lazy to check the spelling) and I think you've got yourself a fine first couple steps for suppressing the ascension of a god/goddess. :)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  16:33:53  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr

God stats are bollocks, if you ask me.


Even if they are (and I'm inclined to agree), so what? They are canon, and fair game to use in this debate.

quote:
And Shar has a vast advantage over just about all of the other deities - experience.
She's old. VERY old. And she has always been a schemer, not a big brute as the likes of Talos or Tempus.


She's as old as Selune, who is an ally of Mystra. Mystra herself is pretty old too (she's effectively the daughter of Selune and Shar, and has a bit of both of them in her)--and there is more to her than just Midnight. And there's no way to measure how Shar's age (and vast experience) make her an effective schemer. You can be old, and used to scheming, and still have tons of failures under your belt.

By the way, Selune also has better mental stats (INT and WIS) than Shar does.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Feb 2008 23:15:18
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  16:38:04  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
How would you even "suppress the ascension of a god" anyways?



When your writings about the setting are canon, no matter what, you decide how things work. Such is the case with WotC--they don't want another Mystra or Mystra-like character.

That doesn't really answer your question, but...

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Mace Hammerhand
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Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  19:00:41  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The entire thing is a load of horse-manure, but I already said that. The new Forgotten Realms, to me at least, have become the Forgettable Realms...

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Kentinal
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Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  19:39:35  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101


Or is there something different in this situation? Because usually when a god murders another god, the murderer takes the portfolio of the murdered god, right? However, this time Cyric has been imprisoned by the other Greater Gods so perhaps he never took the powers of Mystra and it's sorta just floating around somewhere...





Hmm, when a deity dies, the killer tries to take the portfolio(s), it does not always work. Portfolios have been shared out with some getting a part of the former deity.

In the case of Mystra, there already is a deity that holds Magic (though was only Elven magic) that had the same rank as she did (or will lose, depending on what year you are in) so could very easily step in and take it, or perhaps just transfer to him.

Of course there is still AO out there that clearly can have a say in what occurs. I will mention that SKR made a comment a few years ago that he believed references to AO (or other super deities would tend to disappear, this was appearently a part of 3.0 design team to start to pare down deities.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  22:34:11  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ya, I guess that's true...

Or maybe Ao did take back the portfolio of magic but just hasn't give it to anyone yet because he hasn't found the right candidate. Also, he knows that if he assigns a new god or goddess of magic, Shar will be waiting to pounce on that and cause another Spellplague/ToT/Super Freakin Edition Changing Event (SFECE). Lol.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  23:16:43  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Ya, I guess that's true...

Or maybe Ao did take back the portfolio of magic but just hasn't give it to anyone yet because he hasn't found the right candidate.



I would think beggars can't be choosers when the Spellplague is ravaging the land.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  23:26:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Ya, I guess that's true...

Or maybe Ao did take back the portfolio of magic but just hasn't give it to anyone yet because he hasn't found the right candidate.



I would think beggars can't be choosers when the Spellplague is ravaging the land.



Ao is apparently on vacation, then, since he prolly could have stopped that, too.

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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2008 :  23:45:06  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Ya, I guess that's true...

Or maybe Ao did take back the portfolio of magic but just hasn't give it to anyone yet because he hasn't found the right candidate.



I would think beggars can't be choosers when the Spellplague is ravaging the land.



Well, if Ao decides to just give the portfolio to some mortal and say "Here's the power of a deity. Take it and good luck.", Shar's just going to be waiting to kill off this new deity. It's just going to cause another big disaster.

Wooly, I don't think Ao would stop it because Cyric is just acting what is expected of him. I mean, he's the Lord of Murder.

If Ao was going to stop any fighting, it should've been the Tyr and Helm battle, but that's another topic.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  00:21:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Ya, I guess that's true...

Or maybe Ao did take back the portfolio of magic but just hasn't give it to anyone yet because he hasn't found the right candidate.



I would think beggars can't be choosers when the Spellplague is ravaging the land.



Well, if Ao decides to just give the portfolio to some mortal and say "Here's the power of a deity. Take it and good luck.", Shar's just going to be waiting to kill off this new deity. It's just going to cause another big disaster.

Wooly, I don't think Ao would stop it because Cyric is just acting what is expected of him. I mean, he's the Lord of Murder.

If Ao was going to stop any fighting, it should've been the Tyr and Helm battle, but that's another topic.



I wasn't referring to the murder itself -- I was referring to the backlash it caused. I mean, if Ao can order around the gods and kick them out of the heavens, then he can surely do something "minor" like hold the Weave intact long enough to put a new deity of magic in place. And he could certainly do whatever he needed to to keep Shar from striking at the new deity of magic. Besides which, Shar couldn't directly attack the new deity, anyway -- it's not her place to do so.

And yeah, I know that Ao has kind of a hands-off approach to the whole thing -- but the mess caused by the Sellplague is something that he would have wanted to prevent, thinks I. Something causing deific deaths, merging worlds, widespread cataclysmic destruction, tossing planes around, and general mayhem is far too big for him to just sit on his hands and watch.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Feb 2008 00:24:53
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  02:26:17  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly, do you remember at the end of the novel Waterdeep, a voice asks, "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" in which Ao replies, "They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are secure."? Well, that master is WotC. Lol. WotC wants less deities in the Realms so Ao is letting more deities die.

But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance".

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  03:27:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101


But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance".



I still don't see it. If the ranks need to be thinned out, fine. There are ways to do it that don't involve titanic planar upheavals and merging worlds, both of which happen on an unprecedented scale.

It's like ripping the hood off of your car to change the battery. Sure, you could do it... But there are better ways to do it, so you wouldn't rip the hood off nor allow it to be ripped off.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  10:08:04  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

The entire thing is a load of horse-manure, but I already said that. The new Forgotten Realms, to me at least, have become the Forgettable Realms...





A hit! A very palpable hit!




I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  10:17:09  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101


Or is there something different in this situation? Because usually when a god murders another god, the murderer takes the portfolio of the murdered god, right? However, this time Cyric has been imprisoned by the other Greater Gods so perhaps he never took the powers of Mystra and it's sorta just floating around somewhere...





Hmm, when a deity dies, the killer tries to take the portfolio(s), it does not always work. Portfolios have been shared out with some getting a part of the former deity.

In the case of Mystra, there already is a deity that holds Magic (though was only Elven magic) that had the same rank as she did (or will lose, depending on what year you are in) so could very easily step in and take it, or perhaps just transfer to him.

Of course there is still AO out there that clearly can have a say in what occurs. I will mention that SKR made a comment a few years ago that he believed references to AO (or other super deities would tend to disappear, this was appearently a part of 3.0 design team to start to pare down deities.





Then what was Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms Sparkly Robes doing in the Blecch-spew saga? The figure is apparently a front person (some sort of uber-proxy) for Ao. Why is he/she/it there (in a canonical novel) if Wizards are doing away with Ao? The moreso since about six months ago Ed answered a question of mine regarding who gets the portfolio of Kyuss at the end of the Age of Worms adventure path by saying that Ao decides. Do those people in Renton have any idea what they are doing? Any at all?






I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
313 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  12:24:05  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Do those people in Renton have any idea what they are doing? Any at all?



Trying to make money for WotC and hoping their gamble doesn't blow up in their faces.
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Alisttair
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Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  14:08:20  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Wooly, do you remember at the end of the novel Waterdeep, a voice asks, "And how does your cosmos fare, Ao?" in which Ao replies, "They have restored the balance, Master. The Realms are secure."? Well, that master is WotC. Lol. WotC wants less deities in the Realms so Ao is letting more deities die.



Too bad it wasn't Ed Greenwood.

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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe

402 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  16:11:20  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage  Send ShadezofDis an AOL message Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My own personal theory on AO's "job" is that AO is only concerned with keeping the Realms the Realms rather than being absorbed by the Hells, the Abyss, the Heavens or whatever. I see him in much the same light as a . . . (sorry, thinking) . . . Symbul (in that the Symbul holds back the might of Thay and doesn't much care how it's done).

So, if a God/Goddess of magic isn't a requirement for FR to stay FR then AO doesn't give a hoot.

To put it in terms of Wooly's analogy, my AO doesn't give a hoot about the state of the car's body so long as the engine runs. So if the hood gets ripped off in order to charge the battery, well, that's fine so long as the car keeps going. Though the car analogy falls a bit sort in my vision, as in my vision the barriers that keep FR in the material wax and wane in power, rather than stay static. :)

I don't really think that my vision matches the "canon vision" but I really like it. I've used it to help explain the Great Wheel to Great Tree jam, the ToT (because the whole Tablets of Fate thing seemed a red herring to me, sort of like an apple in a garden in some story I heard about sometime *g*)

And, with a bunch of justification I think I could probably fit the Spellplague in, but I don't know enough (and may not learn enough) to fit it yet. (though I have some thoughts about powers from the Far Realm, or some other likely candidate, infecting the Weave forcing AO to set up events so that the Weave is destroyed because the infection is weakening the planar barriers that keep FR in the prime)
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  16:37:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Logic has nothing to do with it, and I'm sure that it will all be explained with "you cannot understand the ways of the gods" although in this case it should be noted that Mystra's death had a far bigger impact on everything whereas Leira's death was just something like a footnote and didn't really matter



Screw that. Leira was great. They just didn't portray her right initially. Her followers make the perfect tricksters.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Mace Hammerhand
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Germany
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Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  17:06:55  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

Logic has nothing to do with it, and I'm sure that it will all be explained with "you cannot understand the ways of the gods" although in this case it should be noted that Mystra's death had a far bigger impact on everything whereas Leira's death was just something like a footnote and didn't really matter



Screw that. Leira was great. They just didn't portray her right initially. Her followers make the perfect tricksters.




But Leira's death didn't turn the world inside out...or upside down... or something... hence the 'footnote'

I agree that they make the perfect tricksters

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  17:11:08  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101


But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance".




I still don't see it. If the ranks need to be thinned out, fine. There are ways to do it that don't involve titanic planar upheavals and merging worlds, both of which happen on an unprecedented scale.

It's like ripping the hood off of your car to change the battery. Sure, you could do it... But there are better ways to do it, so you wouldn't rip the hood off nor allow it to be ripped off.



Well, in the case of ToT, Ao banished all the gods and caused the deaths of several of them and thousands of people just to teach the deities a lesson on humility...

Overdeities think in a strange way. They like to take drastic measures to handle simple problems. Lol.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Braveheart
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Austria
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Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  17:22:27  Show Profile  Visit Braveheart's Homepage  Send Braveheart an AOL message  Send Braveheart an ICQ Message Send Braveheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101


But on a more serious tone, I think the Balance does have something to do with this. Maybe Ao thought that Mystra has become too powerful and that the large numbers of deities were disrupting the balance so he decided to let something like this happen to "thin out the ranks". Right now, just from two passages in GHotR we know that 3 deities are dead: Helm, Mystra and Savras. Imagine how many more will go later on to restore that "Balance".




I still don't see it. If the ranks need to be thinned out, fine. There are ways to do it that don't involve titanic planar upheavals and merging worlds, both of which happen on an unprecedented scale.

It's like ripping the hood off of your car to change the battery. Sure, you could do it... But there are better ways to do it, so you wouldn't rip the hood off nor allow it to be ripped off.



Well, in the case of ToT, Ao banished all the gods and caused the deaths of several of them and thousands of people just to teach the deities a lesson on humility...

Overdeities think in a strange way. They like to take drastic measures to handle simple problems. Lol.




Ao probably thought: "How much beating can Toril take before it brakes apart? Let's see ...."

Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not."
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Hawkins
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USA
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Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  17:34:55  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Do those people in Renton have any idea what they are doing? Any at all?

In a single word: I-don't-bloody-hell-think-so!

To wax biblical (I just finished reading Proverbs today):

Proverbs 10:14
Wise men store up knowledge, but the mouth of a fool invites ruin.

-and-

Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.

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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe

402 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  17:39:51  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage  Send ShadezofDis an AOL message Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Well, in the case of ToT, Ao banished all the gods and caused the deaths of several of them and thousands of people just to teach the deities a lesson on humility...



I think that was just PR. A nice smoke screen to hide true intentions. With the Gods/Goddesses on Toril they don't have aren't able to perceive what's going on in the cosmos.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2008 :  21:40:47  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Ao is apparently on vacation, then, since he prolly could have stopped that, too.



A good point.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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