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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe

185 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2004 :  16:56:58  Show Profile  Visit Senbar Flay's Homepage Send Senbar Flay a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I relized it was just this year that the Black Hand returned but what I want to know is what impact will it have on faerun I mean he was alive before so waht is the big deal?

Imagination is more important than knowledge for knowledge is limited imagination encircles the world.- Albert Einstein

SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2004 :  17:06:34  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay

I relized it was just this year that the Black Hand returned but what I want to know is what impact will it have on faerun I mean he was alive before so waht is the big deal?



He returned in 1372 DR. The timeline has moved on since then and we are now in the Year of Rogue Dragons.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2004 :  04:21:51  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all, when Bane died Cyric took his followers and powers. The Prince of Lies was just a mere thief when Bane was still alive. Now that Bane is back, some of those ex-Banites who were reluctant to join Cyric have now gone back to him. Also, Bane is angry at Cyric for stealing his powers so he is having Fzoul Chembryl, the leader of his church, to destroy Cyric's followers. This holy war between Cyricists and Banites impact the Realms since its changing the hierachy of the Zhentarim and maybe even also the gods themselves.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2004 :  10:30:59  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I doubt whether the 'Holy War' between Banites and Cyricists will have any 'great' effect on the two deities involved. Ao would simply not allow such a deity-war to occur in the first place. Not only would it force a polarisation of support for either deity in the ranks of the other chaotic and evil deities, but the fundamental shift in the balance of power could significantly weaken the Faerunian pantheon. More so if the entire pantheon suddenly becomes mirred in a series of internal clashes between opposing groups of deities.

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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
222 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2004 :  03:21:40  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All I can say is I hope that both cults weaken each other so much by fighting. That way it will be a cakewalk when the forces of good finally roll them up!
Go Torm!

Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett

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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2004 :  03:59:49  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn

All I can say is I hope that both cults weaken each other so much by fighting. That way it will be a cakewalk when the forces of good finally roll them up!
Go Torm!



I think the forces of good have their hands full these days in the current Realms setting.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30084 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2004 :  05:30:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack

quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn

All I can say is I hope that both cults weaken each other so much by fighting. That way it will be a cakewalk when the forces of good finally roll them up!
Go Torm!



I think the forces of good have their hands full these days in the current Realms setting.



Indeed. There's way too much going on for there to be a holy war against a major deity. Especially since the bad guys are now effective...

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jun 2004 05:31:07
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2004 :  18:24:49  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I doubt whether the 'Holy War' between Banites and Cyricists will have any 'great' effect on the two deities involved. Ao would simply not allow such a deity-war to occur in the first place. Not only would it force a polarisation of support for either deity in the ranks of the other chaotic and evil deities, but the fundamental shift in the balance of power could significantly weaken the Faerunian pantheon. More so if the entire pantheon suddenly becomes mirred in a series of internal clashes between opposing groups of deities.




I myself don't see a big problem if Bane or Cyric die. The two are gods of evil and if one dies, the other just ursurp the powers. There won't be a big shift in power because if you remember after ToT, Cyric took the power of THREE gods. That didn't affect the balance very much.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Sarta
Senior Scribe

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 19 Jun 2004 :  19:25:22  Show Profile Send Sarta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, don't dismiss the difference in alignments. Were a LE god to die and a CE god to take over their portfolios (or vice versa). This means that nearly every cleric of the one will have to find another church to support them (aside from the NE clerics of the dead god). The one-step rule on cleric alignments make things exciting when a coup occurs by a god of a different alignment.

As an example: Myrkul (who was Neutral Evil) was killed and replaced by Cyric (who was also Neutral Evil) and for the most part Myrkul's clerics didn't have any problems making this transition. Then Cyric reads the Cyrinishad, becomes Chaotic Evil, and has the portfolio of death stolen from him by Kelemvor. For the old clerics of Myrkul, some made the transition to worship of Kelemvor, others stuck with Cyric, and even more shifted to the worship of Velsharoon.

If Bane were to destroy Cyric, most of his clerics will not be able to make the transition to Bane worship and will instead flock to other more chaotic gods with worship. Garagos, Malar, Mask, Shar, Talona, Talos, Tempus, and Umberlee would all most likely gain more worshippers. Possibly yet another new god would be risen to take over some of Cyric's portfolios. The same sort of thing would be true if Cyric were to kill Bane.

Sarta
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 20 Jun 2004 :  00:43:49  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting... I've never thought of it that way. Thanks, Sarta on raising this point.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe

USA
172 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2004 :  02:00:22  Show Profile  Visit Darth KTrava's Homepage  Send Darth KTrava an AOL message Send Darth KTrava a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack

quote:
Originally posted by Talwyn

All I can say is I hope that both cults weaken each other so much by fighting. That way it will be a cakewalk when the forces of good finally roll them up!
Go Torm!



I think the forces of good have their hands full these days in the current Realms setting.



I'd say that Torm has his hands full trying to usurp their powers..... Don't know about the rest of the good-aligned pantheon.


Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2004 :  04:24:48  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... it's more like Mask will be waiting to ursurp their powers. Torm would never because of his "honour" and he would become corrupted by the evil power of Bane and Cyric. However, the Shadowlord would be the first to jump in and steal their portfolios, as he still wants revenge against Cyric for taking intrigue.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe

USA
172 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2004 :  18:23:40  Show Profile  Visit Darth KTrava's Homepage  Send Darth KTrava an AOL message Send Darth KTrava a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"usurp" in my definition being to remove them from existance. He wouldn't take their portfolios as those aren't his "style" (so to speak). Mask would for sure. People think that since Torm took out Bane that one time, he could again (never mind the "teeny, tiny little fact that both were mortals at the time).


Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm
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Ordin_Solandar
Seeker

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  07:44:27  Show Profile  Visit Ordin_Solandar's Homepage  Click to see Ordin_Solandar's MSN Messenger address Send Ordin_Solandar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am not sure if you could classify them as mortals any more then you can classify them as such now. Both had access to powers and abilities far beyond that of normal beings. Bane was obliterated before Cyric killed him with Godsbane, Myrkul put him back together.

Vote for Torm, to replace Tyr as a greater power! Viva le champion de responsible!

In my opion Banes return has had an interesting effect on the pantheon. Cyric is no longer free to activley conflict with Mystra because Bane is basically a greater power still. Although a somewhat diminished one. I don't understand why people think that there would be such tremendous upheval if one or more of the gods were to die. Not all the portfolios need to be filled! Look at Waukeen, Amunanitor and other absent or dead powers. Sure their clerics were displaced, but on a realms wide scale not much changed due to their absence. (commerce still occurs, and the sun still rises)

The two evil powers who demand close scrutiny right now are Lloth and Shar. Both have attained significant increases in power due to unforseeable circumstance. For example the return of Shade to the material plane infused Shar with 10's of thousands of worshipers. Lloth's revival in book 5 of WOTSQ has given her a significant power buff as things stand. She may be short a few worshippers, but read the book to find out just how powerfull she has become!

Its easy not to care what people think, it harder to try!
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2004 :  21:21:15  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ordin, it's because Waukeen and Amunator aren't Greater Powers. They don't have that much of an influence in the Realms like Cyric or Mystra. Also, Waukeen's powers were given to Liira who had helped her grant spells to Waukeen's followers.

As for Shar's "new worshipers", they've been her followers the whole time since the city went to the Plane of Shadows. It's just that there have been nothing about them before, that's all.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
222 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  03:14:58  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple of questions regarding Bane, Cyric & Torm:

1. In Faiths & Avatars it states that Torm will die along with Cyric and save the realms from Cyrics madness: does that mean that Cyric finally wins in his battle with Bane? If so, when would this occur?

2. Since the ToT, Torms' following has been growing rather rapidly at the expence of Helm and other gods. With his increased number of worshippers, does it mean that his power/position is going to change from lesser to intermediate status? Is there a correlation between the number of worshippers a god has and the amount of power they can wield?

3. Since Torm "killed" Bane during the ToT, is Bane going to come after Torm or his church in revenge?

And I'd just like to second Ordin's little plug for the Loyal Fury!
"Vote for Torm, to replace Tyr as a greater power! Viva le champion de responsible!"







Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett


Edited by - Talwyn on 23 Jul 2004 03:17:39
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  04:19:46  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage  Click to see DDH_101's MSN Messenger address Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1. In Faiths & Avatars it states that Torm will die along with Cyric and save the realms from Cyrics madness: does that mean that Cyric finally wins in his battle with Bane? If so, when would this occur?

I don't have a copy of Faiths & Avatars myself but from what you say, I don't think Cyric will win the battle. After all, you just said that Torm will die ALONG with Cyric, so that means the only survivor left would be Bane.


2. Since the ToT, Torms' following has been growing rather rapidly at the expence of Helm and other gods. With his increased number of worshippers, does it mean that his power/position is going to change from lesser to intermediate status? Is there a correlation between the number of worshippers a god has and the amount of power they can wield?

Torm's increase in followers have slowly declined because other deities like Helm have been winning back worshipers since ToT, which was 14 years (or is it 15?) ago. Also, remember that Torm didn't become a lesser deity because of worshipers. Ao gave him the status because Torm sacrificed his own life to kill Bane and protect Tantras.


3. Since Torm "killed" Bane during the ToT, is Bane going to come after Torm or his church in revenge?

Yup, absolutely. In fact, in Player's Guide to Faerun every deity has 2-3 enemies that they especially hate, and Torm is on Bane's list along with Cyric and the likes.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
222 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  04:39:37  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I may have misphrased question 1.

I was interested in the death dual bewteen Cyric & Torm because if Torm is fighting Cyric, does that mean that Cyric had finally defeated Bane in an earlier battle?
Cyric doesn't win the final battle with Torm, they both die together
- Torm sacrificing himself for the greater good once again.


I know Torm was raised by Ao to lesser diety status but if his church did have a sudden rise in followers, wouldn't that begin his rise to intermediate status? Or can that only be given/awarded by Ao?
Also where does it say that Torms popularity is falling off?

Who does Bane hate more, Torm or Cyric?


Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett

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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe

933 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  06:43:10  Show Profile  Visit Arion Elenim's Homepage  Click to see Arion Elenim's MSN Messenger address Send Arion Elenim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm gonna say Cyric. It seems that Bane at least respects Torm's dedication, power and loyal following. Bane is not a fan of breaking his word (thus the whole Lyonsbane curse thing). Cyric on the other hand...

My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm
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Phobos
Seeker

Germany
19 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  08:50:00  Show Profile  Visit Phobos's Homepage Send Phobos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i don't think the status of a deity depends so much, or only, on the count of followers. a good example is mask. in the 2nd edition Faiths and Avatars mask is described as a "lesser power (previously intermediate power and briefly demipower)". his ups and downs have to do solely with him losing a portofolio to cyric (intrigue) and gaining another one (shadows). that is how he moved from intermediate to demi to lesser... his followers probably didn't change much in numbers in that time as there is no reason to assume that.

i think it is a bit more complicated (without claiming to understand it myself) so i can imagine torm will remain a lesser deity unless an essential part of faerun choses him to be their patron deity or unless he gains another portofolio... which raises another interestiong question... when is a term/theme/idea a portofolio but that is another subject.

ps of course if no one believes in a deity anymore... i guess that *IS* the end of the deity's career...:) so it probably works in that direction.

Edited by - Phobos on 23 Jul 2004 08:52:26
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe

264 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  11:08:38  Show Profile  Visit Darkheyr's Homepage  Send Darkheyr an ICQ Message  Click to see Darkheyr's MSN Messenger address Send Darkheyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The day just before noone believes into the gods anymore, some fancy god o' evil will drop a mountain on a city and say "Still here!" ...

silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World
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Ordin_Solandar
Seeker

Canada
40 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2004 :  21:32:39  Show Profile  Visit Ordin_Solandar's Homepage  Click to see Ordin_Solandar's MSN Messenger address Send Ordin_Solandar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was attempted in Dragonlance and it seemed to have worked.

Amuanator was a greater power DDH just check out the pantheons book under dead deaties. Lathandar is Amuanators successor but doesn't hold all of the original sun gods portfolio's. His death wasn't a realms shattering event.

DDH Shade was on a different plane, although Shar controlls the shadow plane it isn't her home plane. The material plane and specifically the Underdark/Torils night is; in that regard the more followers a diety has on his or her home plane increases the power derived from there worship. This is part of the reason that Torm was brought back from the dead after the time of troubles. (died defending his portfolio, and on his home plane)

Poor Helm does what Ao tells him too and looses a bunch of his following!

Woohooo Torm for god of Justice and his current portfolios!

Its easy not to care what people think, it harder to try!
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe

USA
172 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2004 :  05:23:08  Show Profile  Visit Darth KTrava's Homepage  Send Darth KTrava an AOL message Send Darth KTrava a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Helm lost alot of respect after the whole Maztica fiasco. I'm not sure if that was all or if there was something else. (Not including his offing Mystra 1 at Ao's behest)

Torm rocks!!


Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2004 :  06:58:48  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Helm lost alot of respect after the whole Maztica fiasco. I'm not sure if that was all or if there was something else. (Not including his offing Mystra 1 at Ao's behest)




Good memory. Faiths & Avatars mentions both incidents as reasons why Helm is not viewed in the best of light by some.
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Panador
Seeker

Austria
28 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2004 :  15:06:51  Show Profile  Visit Panador's Homepage  Send Panador an ICQ Message  Click to see Panador's MSN Messenger address Send Panador a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry, don't know about this:

Why is Bane alive again? He died during the ToT and Ao didn't resurrect him like he did with Torm, Bane was dead and stayed dead - so why's he back again?

I already know that he's alive again, ie from Rage - A Year of Dragons, where Banites besiege this little town... Elmwood or so but I didn't read why or how he Bane came back.

*Still thinking about a signature...*
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2004 :  15:13:47  Show Profile  Visit SiriusBlack's Homepage Send SiriusBlack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Panador
Why is Bane alive again? He died during the ToT and Ao didn't resurrect him like he did with Torm, Bane was dead and stayed dead - so why's he back again?



Because a new edition of the FRCS was coming out and this was one of the big events with the publication of the new edition.
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