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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 20:10:49
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-I voted no. I tend to use area's that are not "Uber NPC" dominated. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 16:32:15
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They never bothered me, and I liked some of them.
If you don't like a character then don't use them. I fail to see why some people (not anyone here, mind) seemingly just can't understand that. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 22:04:39
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thats a most definitely not, they never bugged me.
heck novel characters should not even be used in a campaign for anything other than a quick cameo, not a oh the pcs failed and met a tpk, and Elminster and the symbul won the da |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 14:42:14
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Hmm, they are good background material and fun to read about. As to their actually appearing in any campaign I've played or ran...almost never. Way back in first edition our party visited Elminster the Sage for info on an extraplanar problem. At that time we were unaware of him being an uber wizard, just THE uber sage. I've also met Volo; otherwise these guys only appear in rumor and fireside tales. Afterall, why would El or the rest be interested in the average party?
Ionik Knight |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 14:59:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
Afterall, why would El or the rest be interested in the average party?
Indeed. Canon material says he's a retired sage whose behind-the-scenes machinations aren't known except as rumours to sages and highly placed people, who spends much of his time researching other planes and by default isn't in if PCs try to find him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 20:51:16
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They've never had a negative impact on my DMing or playstyle in the Realms, nor have they ever intimidated me from the perspective of either player or DM. They are merely tools to use (as a DM), not some driving force that steers the game for me.
I think the people that do worry are those without real imagination... they either can't see how to use those NPCs constructively and/or just assume that the novels they've read take precedence of PC adventures simply because they're the high level characters in a Realms without room for players to rival them. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 21:22:39
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I'm just waiting for WotC to do the same thing to Star Wars and kill off the big characters like Chewbacca.
... oh wait.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 22:16:42
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| been annoyed by a few of them (specially Drizzt and his PCclones) but intimidated by them, no |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm just waiting for WotC to do the same thing to Star Wars and kill off the big characters like Chewbacca.
... oh wait.
Silly Ashe. That's what the novels are for!  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2012 : 20:26:25
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| I don't play D&D, but I read the novels, and I'm one of those people who doesn't have to relate to a character to enjoy them (that's why I like stories about the gods). I certainly can't relate to uber characters, but they're still awesome! I like the suave, cool types. They inspire good stories! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 01:35:24
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| I've never actually played IN the Realms, though I've had one or two of the "uber" NPC's make guest appearances in my own HB world. (Just visiting, mind...) Have they ever been a problem? No. Have they influeinced me? Partially, as I use some of them for inspiration for adventures or for NPC's of my own. (No Drizzt-clones, though there IS a bard who might occasionally be mistaken for him- but only becuase they both happen to be drow... Pretty sure the resemblance ends as soon as he starts to sing or dance, though, LOL!) Have they ever intimidated me? As a player, there was only ever ONE NPC who did, and HE was neither good, nor from Faerun. (It was Soth, and my PC got out of that encounter by the skin of her teeth!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 04:22:26
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In my campaign there were two DM criiques of Uber-NPCs and one Player critique of Uber-NPCs
DM Critique 1: Designing adventures that would be beneath the notice of the NPCs but that was still compelling for the PCs.
DM Critique 2: Maintaining distance between PCs and Uber-NPCs because my PCs either want to mooch off of them or kill them for glory--neither of which is something that I'm interested in running.
Player Critique: Where the hell are all the big-guys? Why is a 32nd level mage sending us to deal with orcs when he could sneeze and end them? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 09:52:20
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I've ran into problems with them before. Usually depends on whether or not I'm DM'ing, though occasionally even then I've had to compromise with players who like sticking to the novel canon.
When I'm DM'ing and have free range of the place, the chosen generally end up as severed heads on pikes(sometimes still talking).
When I'm not, or I don't, I've run into problems such as "Why doesn't/hasn't [insert character here] deal/dealt with this themselves yet?" and problems like "you can't do that, or you can, but if you do [insert character here] will kill you if you try or when they find out."
So yes, I feel they interfere, especially when one's dm/party is too concerned with maintaining the status quo, as maintaining the status quo is the explicitly stated purpose for the existence of the Chosen in the first place.
When you're not afraid to violate that, then no, they don't present a problem. Merely targets. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 11:33:05
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In the past? Never. In the future? Who knows...
For example, 3.X's Elminster seemed more like the retired Sage who might offer some knowledge or advice but would be more interested in having the PCs actually be the ones to "save the realms."
While 4th/5th Edition's Elminster seems more like, "I wish someone else would step up and take the job already! It's too bad there's literally no one in the world who can do it except me." (After all, his granddaughter is only good enough because she's a blood relative, remember?)
tl:dr - If this is a valid WoTC complain/concern... well it's their own fault for steering the Realms in that direction! xD |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 15:41:35
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| Never was a problem for my group. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 16:53:02
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I voted 'No', based solely on 'Intimidate'. I have had Big Names appear before, but only fleetingly, and never in a deus ex machina role.
I have always assumed that the 'Big Names' are off doing 'Big Stuff' that a player character has precisely zero chance of handling. They may indirectly contribute to the Big Name accomplishing his task, but I would never let them know about it.
As in, the players may have defeated the fallen paladin and dragged her off to face justice, but they (and maybe even the paladin herself) may never know that she was key to a grand design set in motion by, say, Manshoon, an unstoppable plot that a Big Name can now ruin simply because a necessary element (the paladin) has been removed. You can't fire a gun if the firing pin has been removed, after all. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 17:44:16
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The way I see it . . .
1) The Big NPCs are really just NPCs to interact with when the PCs get to that level: Elminster and those like him are much like the lords, mercenary captains, barkeeps, etc., of the world, just at the next tier of play. When the PCs are more powerful than the king, who do they bother with? The high level NPCs of comparable power to themselves.
2) The big NPCs have lots of power, but very limited time: Elminster could wipe out all the orcs in the Stonelands if he wanted to, it would just take a couple weeks to root them all out. A couple weeks he doesn't have. Much better to send heroes to do it, as that way it gets done, and maybe those heroes become more experienced and powerful and become more useful allies at a later date. Being influential is not a matter of personal power but rather of connections.
3) Even the most powerful NPCs can get overwhelmed: Much as the book suggests otherwise, Drizzt couldn't take on 1,000 orcs single-handedly in a big rush. The math just isn't on his side. Leaving aside the aid another action (by which the orcs make it much more likely they will hit him with their attacks), the odds are the orcs will roll enough crits to take him down. This ties into the time issue, as well. It takes Drizzt hours if not days to dispatch an entire orc horde--meanwhile, the next orc horde over massacres the village Drizzt was trying to protect. Game over.
4) There are just as many extremely powerful evil threats as powerful heroes, if not WAY MORE: Sure, Elminster could go clean out a dungeon full of kobolds and orcs, but if he does so, who's around to defend Shadowdale when Manshoon decides to take advantage of the opportunity of Elminster's absence and have the Zhentarim invade. Elminster arrives back home to find the village in flames and all the people massacred or enslaved. Game over. But let's say Elminster can fight off the Zhentarim, including Manshoon--odds are, however, that he is so weakened in the assault that when he arrives home to find a dozen Red Wizards armed with the best Thay has to offer, he loses the resulting fight. Extra game over.
By their very nature, high-level NPCs act as a deterrent for other high-level NPCs, who deter them as well. It slows the game down at the highest level. The PCs--as heroes of the setting--represent a wild card that can swing the balance one way or the other. That's why there is a status quo--so the players can come in and shape it their way.
5) Uni-lateral action causes more problems than it solves: Sure, let's say Elminster could just go wipe out Zhentil Keep. He says "enough of this," swoops in, destroys Manshoon, kills all the Black Network, etc. That's when the ripple effects start: what about other countries dependent on Zhentil Keep for economic purposes? They take a huge hit too (and become Elminster's enemies). What about all the good/decent people and families living and working in Zhentil Keep because they have no other choice? Now deprived of their livelihood (and probably a few family members), they do anything from starving in misery, turning to lives of thievery and murder, to raising the banner of the Black Network anew. What fearsome new power takes the Zhentarim's place--a foreign power or the heir from down the street, who proves far worse than what we had? And what about all the other powerful NPCs who might have wanted to see the Zhentarim situation handled in a different way--one not so destructive to the region? What about the other power figures who are horrified that Elminster would do such a cruel and murderous thing? Elminster has alienated all of those folks.
In Conclusion:
Making real change in the world is a glacially slow process, based on diplomacy with the threat of force. Elminster can't just go around attacking everyone who doesn't want to do things his way. To take an example from our world, you don't see the United States just turning its enormous firepower to annihilate every threatening regime (because believe me, they could, particularly if nuclear weapons were on the table). For a first, that creates so many more enemies than it eliminates, it destabilizes entire continents, and basically makes the world worse off than it was.
I think D&D players, by the very nature of the game (a PC-centric model of "acquire more power and handle things personally") measure NPCs in that way, and wonder why someone with great power doesn't just "fix the world" over the course of a weekend. It's way, WAY more complicated than that. Even if that were possible--and a high-level NPC could make that kind of change with a wave of a magic wand--the fallout from the event is potentially devastating, and certainly way too unpredictable to make it a valid tactic. Not to mention that it weakens whoever did the deed, creating an opportunity for the NPC's multifarious enemies to settle the score.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2012 : 18:49:53
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| awesome explanation Erik... |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 06:32:12
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| Nobody says how many epic level dragons are there. Together they would rule Faerūn. In novels Elminster could die from a single orc blow. |
z455t |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 19:09:09
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well, i voted no since they have never been a problem for me.
I was tempted to vote yes since they have positively influenced some of my campaigns |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 20:08:57
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| In the Forgotten Realms it's not a problem, but in planar campaigns I would lower the levels of most NPC's above CR 20. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2012 : 22:10:52
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| In a planar campaign I think epic levels make more sense. How could you explore the Abyss if you're not super powerful? If I played a campaign to a high level I would expect to be planes walking. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 05:37:15
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I never understood the reasoning behind not having uber NPCs in a game world. I find it completely ridiculous and unbelievable that a handful of PCs are the ONLY ones able to attain such power. There's always a "mighty wizard" or "legendary warrior" somewhere around the corner. Someone has to kick the ass of that great wyrm halfway across the world while the PCs are in their home kingdom taking down a lich and its minions.
DM has full control. In my Realms game, unless I need an NPC of such magnitude to keep a plot going, they stay out the picture. Either busy to themselves, plane-hopping, taking down some world threat deep in the Underdark, whatever. They have their own story going and my PCs have theirs. Simple as that.
Anyone complaining about uber NPCs just simply cannot control their own game it seems. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2012 : 09:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
In a planar campaign I think epic levels make more sense. How could you explore the Abyss if you're not super powerful? If I played a campaign to a high level I would expect to be planes walking.
Yet balors are not epic. In Sigil, where is my campaign, you have two epic characters, Lothar of Bones and Zadara the Titan, and two near epic, factols Rowan and Pentar. There would be disbalance between the prime NPC's visiting, it's easier to lower their stats than increase the local high-ups when you're using Pathfinder, where level cap is 20. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 07:21:38
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| I believe that these characters are iconic and the Realms would be a much poorer place without them. |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2012 : 15:58:25
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| To me it's a clear no. High power NPC's have never caused me any worry or problems. In my book characters like that are part of the tapestry that make up the world, and they help to make the setting come alive. They are not someone that the players are ever likely to meet in person. If I need someone to throw assignments at the PC's, I only on the very rarest of circumstances will use one of the super NPC's like the Chosen. There are plenty of alternative ways to throw jobs at the PC's that don't involve named NPC's like that. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2012 : 11:12:36
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I can't see what's so bad about powerful NPC. Yup, gods and their right-hand servants are the bigger fish. So are many others. Where's the problem?
Unless there's an unspoken assumption, e.g. that PCs are "supposed to" be the most powerful guys stomping around and saving the world again (noticed this strange notion repeatedly). In which case "OMG there are May Sues running over!" translates to the Honest simply as "my PC applied for Mary Sue job, but failed to get it". Which is rather lulzful as such, in my opinion.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Have the "uber" NPCs ever worried you?
