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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 20:32:46
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Poll Question:
Just heard some of this designer at WOTC said and I was wondering...did Drizzt, Elminster, or the Simbul ever influence or intimidate you and your style of playing in the Realms?
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 20:33:54
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I use 'em when I need 'em as a DM, but my players are the main focus...period |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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l33td0ggy
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 20:54:05
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they've never worried me. but some of their fanbois have! |
i have no sig. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 21:16:56
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Did they influence me as a Realms fan? Yes. Did they intimidate me? No.
So I voted yes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 21:29:43
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quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Did they influence me as a Realms fan? Yes. Did they intimidate me? No.
So I voted yes.
Did they influence your style of playing? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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LordArcana
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 21:29:59
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As a player i can't say the "uber" npc's of the realms have played a huge direct part in any of my campaigns. For the most part people MAY know of Elminster the Sage or Drizzt, but if put in a line up its doubtful anyone would know who they are. They are powerful in their own ways which means they have their own goals. I don't see Drizzt ever wanting to go to Llorkh or Cormyr of Turmish to interact with my pc's.
Elminster and the Simbul, while designers have given the idea that they can be placed in adventures to help out the pc's if needed i personally find it cheesy to say Elminster pops in to save the day...again. If Elminster was to ever play a part in my campaign it would simply be for some of the knowledge he has. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2007 : 23:09:42
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They influence my game, yes... everytime that I need of a good inspiration, I look to them! |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 00:45:10
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quote: Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Did they influence me as a Realms fan? Yes. Did they intimidate me? No.
So I voted yes.
Did they influence your style of playing?
Depends on what you mean by "influence". I like a lot of NPCs and it's hard for me to think about the Realms without thinking about Elminster. But if the question is really about whether or not players actively feeling that Elminster is somehow overshadowing them? No, that's not something that I care about. I can have a lot of fun with lower level (even lvl 1) characters--with the knowledge that certain other characters vastly overpower them. I don't care. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Dec 2007 00:46:19 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 06:37:57
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Influenced, yes. A problem? No. I did drop the levels on many of the mages in the Forgotten Realms Adventures book, but even that was more or less for practical reasons not out of dislike. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 07:53:20
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They never interfered with my game play. My vote was: NO. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 11:58:23
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Never a concern... |
'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 13:27:32
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I love these characters and they have never had a negative impact on me, my love of the realms, or my playing style. |
You never fail until you stop trying. |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 16:24:08
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Through them I got interested in the Relams, but my play never was concerned with "uber" ... |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 16:40:54
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The way they are described/stated in D&D 3.x Realms ? Yeah, they can be a serious worry.
But I can't explain why without going into the RPG theory/design banned territory. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 06 Dec 2007 16:42:04 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 16:54:29
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Well, I think I grasped the point behind the voting question better than Rinonalyrna . She clearly went through it word by word ... and some may say rightly so. Yet, since Mace pointed at that WotC designer, the intent was quite clear. Hence, the answer was a clear "No!" from my part. Even if I had done it Rinonalyrna-style .
They never influenced my game, my campaigns, nor my perception of the Realms. Elminster as well as the Simbul (whom I like more) belong to the movers and shakers of the world, needed* to get the setting and its story going as such in-setting. But you have these chaps throughout all settings. Drizzt is just a character amongst millions of others, living in a remote area. He does nothing that is needed for the setting - if you do not count selling FR novels, that is - and is not that powerful either. You find tons of people of his "power level" throughout the sourcebooks and the only thing that makes him different from those is the mere fact that they do not enjoy the "novel propaganda".
*Some may disagree, but that is always the case, ain't it? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 20:02:25
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I votes Yes. The reason I did so is that the presence of said powerful NPCs in a few instances have made me alter a plot line or location due to the fact that things would not have likely progressed to the point of the PCs having to deal with the threat when one of the other powerful NPCs could have done so. I will say that this has happened only a handful of times over the years, but it has happened.
The Realms are so vast though, that unless you are nailed down to one spot, just move one kingdom over and the badd arse NPC is out of the picture in nost cases. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 20:17:52
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quote: Originally posted by Zanan
Well, I think I grasped the point behind the voting question better than Rinonalyrna . She clearly went through it word by word ... and some may say rightly so. Yet, since Mace pointed at that WotC designer, the intent was quite clear. Hence, the answer was a clear "No!" from my part. Even if I had done it Rinonalyrna-style
To be sure, I have a habit of taking things literally (people who are close to me will attest to this).
My non-literal answer would be "no" as well. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 21:18:41
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Basically I am/was trying to find out if a certain designer is right...
It's sad to think that they listen to the whiners and look at WOW and EQ and whathaveyou. Tone down the powerful good NPCs or overshadowing (good) NPCs (wouldn't that mean Drizzt'd get the axe as well as he is an overshadowing power in the north?) to get more boss-mob sort of encounters.
If they wanna make money, that's fine with me... but, and I hate to say this, I will refuse to buy any more Realms game stuff and only read whatever novel catches my interest, for reading's sake only and not roleplaying. If Wizards want to piss off their customers, have it their way. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2007 : 21:57:55
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No need to lay into them with these harsh words. You know, there's still a CoC here ... and yes, I just about managed my Will save on another but closely related topic. So I did not go ballistic again. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 00:37:45
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I think that npcs don´t have any power to be a "problem" to a group of players. I think that the basic of rpg is to entertain a group with a good history, good moments spent together.
So, if the players are roleplaying their characters, the description/stats of the npcs is no problem to anyone. This start to be a problem when everyone pass more time looking to npc stats, while they was suposed to be roleplaying their characters, or paying attention the the plot of the DM. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 03:27:02
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Honestly, I design adventures so that I DON'T run into any of the big guys. Mainly because I don't feel it's necessary to make a better game by using cameos. They work if used sparingly, but work better when it's actually important to the overall story arc you're using. I've seen it done well, and I've seen it done poorly. It's all a matter of preference. Why worry about Elminster, I run games in the Chultan Peninsula. I could go on here... The only ones I actually worry about are Thayan and Halruuan, and those I can do well
Special edit: Read KnightErrantJR's Mistledale Campaign to see the cameo's done right
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 08 Dec 2007 02:56:29 |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 03:32:38
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Well, I'd have to say that all I knew about when I started was The Crystal Shard. By the time I read anything else I already had my own "style" and I don't think that they had any influence.
As far as intimidation, I guess I could see that, but I've never been in a group that encountered any of the "big" names, so I can't comment. I do have to say that I have never, in general, found the "good guys" intimidating. They're good! why would they intimidate me? (I've never got into the whole celebrity thing either - they're just people) |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 12:44:01
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I think our characters have only met a couple of the "Iconic" characters in our games - and then only for information, between-game training(once), and at a couple of social events. So, yes they have had a small influence on us - BUT not on on the campaign as a whole. |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am. Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 22:08:21
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Not in the least...if anything, they enriched my campaigns because they add a lot of flavour to the realms. The reason for that is that most of them have a fairly detailed backstory and history, so they can be used if there´s a purpose or ignored if there isn´t. The only uber-npcs I´ve ever hated with a passion are those that are simply explained as "well, gee, she´s just a mystery, y´know..." in other settings/games (e.g. Naheema in DSA for those who know that). And besides...iconic or not...that´s still no guarantee for them to survive in my campaign. If a player character kills an icon fair and square, then that´s just that. Lastly, there´s hardly anything sweeter than dropping down the "right name", just as your players get all sassy and cocky on you...*grins* |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Abarys
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2007 : 19:40:49
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The one problem I have run into is that the Chosen and their ilk present a difficulty to the DM: If, as eventually happens in a level-based game, you reach a point where your PCs are challenged only by the truly cataclysmic, it sometimes feels like you have to explain why the Chosen haven't gotten involved. Certain stories are more difficult to carry off due to massive NPCs lurking in the background, whose stated purpose is to head off the kinds of disaster you want your PCs to face.
Overall, though, that's a minor gripe that only raises its head among players unwilling to suspend disbelief and buy into the idea that they are the ones who need to save the world this time. |
Knowledge hoarded is knowledge wasted |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 00:12:10
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quote: Originally posted by Abarys
The one problem I have run into is that the Chosen and their ilk present a difficulty to the DM: If, as eventually happens in a level-based game, you reach a point where your PCs are challenged only by the truly cataclysmic, it sometimes feels like you have to explain why the Chosen haven't gotten involved. Certain stories are more difficult to carry off due to massive NPCs lurking in the background, whose stated purpose is to head off the kinds of disaster you want your PCs to face.
I think that with the advent of 3rd edition, we lost some of the "feel" of 2nd edition, which, in relation to the Chosen and similar characters, reminded me of Doctor Strange from Marvel and his position as the Sorcerer Supreme.
In other words, in 3rd edition, we get the feeling that the only "major" forces that could threaten Toril are "known quantity" major organizations . . . the Zhents, the Red Wizards, the Shadovar, the Cult of the Dragon, the churches of various gods and their patrons.
In 2nd edition I got much more of a feel that weird creatures from alternate dimensions, alien sorcerers, and extraplanar things poked their noses into Toril, and these are the main threats that the Chosen deal with. Sure, the Chosen keep an eye on things in Toril, and they point the PCs towards the Zhents and the Red Wizards when they need to, but they are busy with all sorts of threats that are never really recorded.
Elminster runs into sorcerer Hz'krez'itthesk, an alien creature from another prime material that has an artifact that converts anyone infected with its magical disease into raw mystic power, but the artifact will only function if part of it that is hidden on Toril is restored. El has that piece, learns from his sources out in Sigil or some other extraplanar metropolis that Hz'krez'ithesk is looking for it, and he goes off to deal with the threat, while pointing the PCs toward Manshoons latest plot before he leaves (the PCs understand who Manshoon is and why he is dangerous, so it makes more sense to point them in the direction of something they understand, rather than fill them in on all of the planar intrigue).
Khelben hears of a several beholder nations that are similar enough in appearance that they have somehow come to a consensus about the rights of one another to exist, and they are planning on banding together to enslave the nearest world with a large population. Khelben goes off to talk with the Elven Imperial Navy ambassador at the Rock of Bral about this threat and how to deal with it, but before he leaves, he sends some of his Moonstar operatives to nudge the PCs towards the plans of some Calishite agents ready to start trouble in Waterdeep, since the PCs are in Waterdeep and will understand the threat.
I always got the feeling in 2nd edition that these things were assumed. The above would be an average day for Khelben or Elminster, and thus, you don't have to explain why they aren't around, because most of the time when they are around, its when they are resting from between days like these, and taking some time out to manipulate other players into acting while they are busy with the "bigger picture."
In other words, "there is always a bigger fish." The DM really shouldn't have to explain every single potential threat to the entire world of Toril just to justify why some high level NPC shows up to save the day.
This isn't directed at you Abarys, its just that I feel like somehow 3rd edition products, while saying the emphasis should be on the PCs and, at least initially, downplaying the established NPCs, missed the point by disconnecting Toril from outside threats and constantly portraying all threats to Faerun as originating in Toril. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2007 : 00:14:37
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Not at all... |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL. HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 17:55:29
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Have they worried me? me? the character that killed Ao, or the one that destroyed the nine hells and the infinate layers of the abyss? in either case, no. now did they influence me as a player?...no. am I intimedateded by them, no. I only ran into one "uber" NPC, and that was in the galaxy far, far away. I was caught by Boba Fett. he influenced that character... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2007 : 00:47:15
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They never bothered me, I loved having them there as they made up the Realms. They influenced me, but only in so far as they were there to help me create my own stories. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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