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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  03:06:49  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I've been participating in a thread on another forum and well, love to hear how you would update it?

Here's my two cents if you are interested.

http://breadthofpopsanity.blogspot.ca/2018/03/kara-tur-some-thoughts-part-1-overview.html

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
522 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  07:04:53  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really hate that the realms has two distinct nations (and people's) that are based on Japan. Are the Kozakurans the same as the Wa people? The names and places and culture sure sounds 99% the same. But they are treated as if they are a separate culture, nation and ethnic identity. At least with the 2 shou empires, we know they are all "Shou" — the North and South, Shou Lung and Tu Lung.

If I were a Wizards of the Coast design staff and designing a 5E book for Kara-Tur, I would have just said that the planet-rending events of the 2nd Sundering has forced the two (Japan-like) nations of Wa and Kozakura to have merged into one society. Maybe one successfully annexed the other. Maybe a gigantic tsunami drowned Kozakura's main cities, and the remaining refugees fled to Wa cities. Therefore, the sole surviving nation is simply known as Wa, all the people are Wa people. They all share a similar samurai feudal culture anyways, they'll eventually integrate as a single unified society.

I like your take on Shou Lung being waning power, and T'u Lung being on the rise. It's a reversal of fortunes. I like it.

Edited by - moonbeast on 29 Mar 2018 07:09:06
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  07:57:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have my own take I did a LONG time ago on the WotC boards. If you have Shou waning, then I went the exact opposite way; Tu'Lung went into a 'Three Kingdoms' period with the two brothers fighting over succession, and Ausa going its own way. Then Shou invaded and took over like half the country in just a few weeks, so the remaining civil war forces had to unite to repel them. Tan Chin is back in power in Shou - he is possessing one of his own great, great (etc.) grandsons (only royal blood of his bloodline can be used to open certain seals he put in place over when he was emperor). The people call him 'The TanChin reborn', but don't realize just how close to the truth they really are.

Also, there was a mega-earthquake during the ToT, although at this point I could just as easily blame the changes on the Spellplague. A bunch of land collapsed into the Underdark, and now there is a 'Great Lakes' region on the western border of Shou and Tu'Lung (and Petan and Malatra), with various powers vying for control. Its beasically a 'wetlands' region with lots of scary, swampy goodness.

To the far west they took over Semphar, and built a canal linking Gbor Nor to their own river system through what used to be Ra-Khati (its a 'walking dead' type place now, mostly - see 4e's Open Grave). They also built a canal for Mulhorand in the Salt Lake, after the waters receded (so, between 4e and 5e), so that the Alamber Sea could remain connected to the Golden Waters. They operate the canal for Mulhorand and collect the tolls for its use for upkeep, but they are supposed to hand it over to Mulhorand soon... and they don't want to.

Thats pretty much the basics. As for the 'Two japans' - its supposed to be Japan during two different historic periods, so you have your choice of which flavor you want. In my version, the one (Kozakura) fell into civil war - canonically, it was heading that way anyway. Then various powers moved in, including Shou, Wa, and Koryo (so there is a three-way 'occupation' now), ostensibly to 'bring peace to the land'. Shou Lung has also increased its presence in all the seas and their ships can be found almost anywhere, and they are building up one of the islands off the coast of Katashaka (and not wanting to be outdone, the Grand Caliph of Zakhara is doing the same on a nearby island - he does not want Shou controlling those waters).

Tan Chin's ultimate goal is to control the whole world (like Emperor Ming), but he is in no rush - as a lich, he has all the time in the world. The idea is to continue to do what he instigated in Tu'Lung and Kozakura - destabilize the local government, and then send in his own well-trained military to 'restore order' (obviously he trained under the CIA LOL).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2018 07:59:17
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  14:10:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your idea of having an area with dragonborn is worth investigating, but its too simplistic to do a "metallic versus chromatic" conflict. What occurs to me is ... what if these dragons don't resemble the standard dragonborn? What if they resemble the Lung Dragons... by that I mean long chin whiskers, odd types of horns, maybe even manes.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  15:55:25  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, with Kozakura and Wa, Japan was split in past, and the Japanese inslands cwere split into separate, even warring states.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofun_period
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sengoku_period

To make Wa or Kozakura more different from each other, one could base one more on the Jomon and Ainu:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dmon_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dmon_period
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

[EDIT]

- sleyvas

The interesting thing is that Gold Dragons were in older editions related to oriental /lung dragons - they looked like them:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Monster_manual_1e_-_Gold_dragon_-_p33.png
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/File:Monstrous_Manual_2e_-_Gold_Dragon_-_p78.png

And the scientific name for Gold Dragons in the original Draconomicon, was D. orientalus sino dux.

Especially notable, as Draconomicon, stated Oriental Dragons/Lung Dragons descended from eodraco orientalis, the Gold Dragons and Oriental Dragons sharing part of their scientific name, suggests a relation.

Even since 3rd edition, which made Gold Dragons more Western dragons, they still retain traits of Oriental Dragons, like having whiskers, or slimmer, near-serpentine bodies. And there are winged oriental dragons, even in Chinese folklore we have Yinglong and Feilong.

I think it suggests Gold Dragons, share some ancestry with Oriental Dragons., which was confirmed in the 5E Dragon Family Tree, which states Gold Dragons have Lung Dragon (Oriental Dragon) ancestry:
https://imgur.com/5BUePnn

What I mean is, Koryo Dragonborn, could be Gold Dragonborn, and it could give them an oriental dragon look, just all Metalic Dragonborn, could be Gold Dragon based, and wuth that look quite like oriental dragons.

But I get why you think it woukd be better if the Koryo Dragonborn, were Oriental Dragon based, or at least pary so.

Edited by - Baltas on 29 Mar 2018 16:32:50
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  17:08:46  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah I kinda like the idea of making the conflict vague and/or use asian dragons for the dragonborn, but still think making the Koryo Dragonborn is a good idea because of the following:

1. it's a quick shorthand of why they are different from their neighbors.
2. the original concept showed the split that we have in the modern day.
3. the movie Dragon Wars: D-War (2007) :p

Honestly my Korean knowledge pretty much consists of the Hwarang, Yi Sun-sin and the Turtleships, their martial arts, and M.A.S.H. so open to additional info. :)

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 29 Mar 2018 17:10:17
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  17:14:39  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-shades of eternity

Well, it's a very neat idea, but if you still want to mantain the Metallic vs Chromatic split, as I mentioned, the Matallic Dragonborn, could be based on Gold Dragons, and the Chromatic Dragons, on Purple Dragons. Specifically because of Gaumahavi the Greater Purple Dragon:
http://www.enworld.org/cctest/newcc/Conversions/Dragon;%20Unique%20-%20Gaumahavi%20(Great%20Dragon%20of%20the%20Purple%20Wastes).htm
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gaumahavi

quote:
Gaumahavi is a unique type of dragon. Though her
long, snaky form is similar in appearance to that of an
oriental dragon, she has little in common with them.
Thousands of years ago, Gaumahavi was the pet leopard
of Surtava, the famous Ulgarian prince who gave up
his power and wealth to seek enlightenment as a beggar,
and who founded the Padhran religion now followed by
the citizens of Ra-Khati. As a result of her close contact to
the Padhra, Gaumahavi developed a soul. This newfound
soul set Gaumahavi on a series of incarnations; her
present incarnation is that of a great purple dragon.

Edited by - Baltas on 29 Mar 2018 17:23:49
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  17:53:33  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it.

It gives lip service to traditional dnd while quite literally being it's own beast :)

plus gold and purple are both noble colors that create a thematic conflict.

ty kindly. :)

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 29 Mar 2018 18:32:33
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  18:10:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another option could be "Lung" Dragonborn and then have "dragon turtle" dragonborn. Basically take the Tortle concept and "dragon" it up.... which makes me of course think of a name like "Dragon Mutant Ninja Turtles".... which does make me laugh, so maybe its not a good idea. Or, perhaps these dragonborn aren't at war with one another (and maybe there's only one "type" with a lot of variety), but rather with the remaining free humans in the area. In fact, these dragonborn might favor watery areas where the humans favor the earth areas, but there's still conflict.

EDIT: also as the theme song "Dragon Mutant Ninja Turtles" plays in my head, I'm stuck with an image of King Koopa from Mario Brothers. Which brings me back to an oriental creature known as the "Kappa". It could be interesting to have Kappa worshipping/serving dragon turtle overlords from Abeir, and then Lung Dragonborn who don't want to serve those same dragon turtle overlords.... or its just a dragon turtle from Toril that the Kappa from Toril have been worshipping, and the dragonborn instantly see them as enemies. Maybe even it came to Koryo to lay eggs on the beach, and its been protecting its brood.

Also along those lines... crossbreeding a dragon turtle and a Zaratan from Al-Qadim... so maybe a half-dragon Zaratan.

And along those lines. The following from Mad Monkey v/s Dragon Claw

Dragon Turtle: The island is in reality a huge dragon turtle, immense even for his breed, which has been resting for the past 20 years or so in this part of the ocean. Once individuals start walking over its hide, it begins to awaken. Fifteen minutes after the characters land, the island is shaken by a series of jolts. These continue for 10 more minutes, then the island begins sinking beneath the waves.

The dragon turtle will not attack: It did not get to its huge size (100 yards across) by attacking every boat in the area. But those characters still on the island when it sinks are caught in the undertow and drowned (save versus paralyzation to avoid this). In addition, the ship suffers 15 points of structural damage from the turbulence.

If attacked, the dragon turtle stays for a single round, then submerges in search of a quieter part of the ocean to sun itself in. The crew considers this two days of Foul Omens and in the future will refuse to go onto islands. The player characters must go first to demonstrate the area is secure.

Dragon Turtle: AC 0; MV 3#148;//9#148;; HD 20; hp 130; #AT 3; dmg 3-18/3-18/4-32; SA steam breath; AL N.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Mar 2018 18:32:17
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  18:49:57  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm kinda getting the idea that after the great dragonborn schism, the kappa is geographically between the two factions and side with whatever side gives them a better offer.

they are essentially a living minefield (complete with spiked shells). :D

and man so loving the giant dragon turtle island


-- Markustay
edit: I love your use of Tan Chin, and cripse talk about a character you wish you wrote. :)

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 29 Mar 2018 19:46:00
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  19:09:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for the Glds looking like oriental dragons - In my homebrew Overcosmology, I have it where all the 'elder powers' (Supernals, and later Estelar) had draconic forms... at first. But that isn't quite right... its more like these beings are really sentient concepts, and they took very primal forms... at first. So before there were mammals, there were reptiles, and so the aspects they took were repillian in nature. I've even created a term for these ' Drækons, which is 'ancient Supernal' for 'Beings of vast power', and so that word got diluted over time and we have the terrestrial dragons now with a very similar name (so the 'draconic deities' are really Drækons... but then again, so was just about everyone else but primordials, back then).

At some point in time dragons were created, I I assume here that the Oriental ones were the first (purest), because they are almost all consider demipowers; these 'early models' were immortal and should be considered on the same tier as Exarchs (their counterpoint among the primordials would the Empyreals - Jotuns, or 'cosmic giants'). Thus, true sian dragons are deities, but they have sired terrestrial offspring on normal dragons, and other creatures (I think the Dzalmus of the Hordelands looks like three OA dragon heads on a normal dragon body, so possibly a mix with a hydra). I differentiate the the two by saying the celestian versions are Loong dragons, and they can take human form. In fact, many can take any form they wish, because many of them have risen through the deific ranks to become at least lesser gods in their own right (through the power of worship). Regular, terrestrial versions of Oriental dragons would be the Lungs in the MM's, and all of those started out as hybrids with some mortal creature, but they resemble their celestial parent's dracon form (and some unique members may also be able to assume human form). At this point, they become species unto themselves, but in reality, each OA dragon is unique - the MM's just give generalities for each branch (once again, I remind you that this is me personal take, not canon).

The western(common) dragon are actually the result of Lung dragons mating with Landwyrms (Drakes), which are just a very smart reptilian species of animal. First generation of those that continued to breed with other hybrids eventually created the known dragons species (and this was a breeding program being done by the Jotuns, to create more efficient 'tools'). Rejects and ones that 'just got away' bred with other drakes, and further diluted their bloodlines, creating the norse variant - the Linnorms (so those would be to regular dragons what cavemen would be to us).

Of course, all (western) dragons species would vehemently deny this - they all insist they were created as-is by their gods. They will not accept the simple truth that they are a mostly engineered species by the Giants. Eastern Dragons, on the other hand, lord it over western types when they meet, because they feel they are the 'true dragons', which means they rarely get along (even the good ones don't work together, unless extremely desperate). The Eastern variety tend to ignore the fact they are also the result of hybridization (but technically, isn't everything? Isn't that exactly what 'natural selection' is all about?) All dragons have an ancient animosity toward genies, who look down upon them (even the weakest Dgen looks down upon the eldest, mightiest dragons - it has to do with them being related to primordials {elemental lords} rather than the Estelar {gods}.) This is why you find ZERO dragons in Zakhara (thats even canon from the AQ material - dragons fear going into Zakhara). Dgen might show a begrudging respect for OA dragons - not sure. Never really thought about that one.

As for OA Dragonborn - I am picturing something more 'sinuous'. A much lighter build than western Dragonborn, but also taller (however, they'd crouch a lot, so they seem more like regular dragonborn height). They'd be crested, have whiskers/wattles and have unusually long necks (but they can 'compress' it so it looks more normal to others - this is a VERY Asian-folklorish thing BTW). They be better suited to fighting styles that took advantage of their natural agility, like monks or Swashbuckling, than the 'tank' type preferred by western Dragonborn. Also, my backstory for them is rather boring compared to the two stories for their western counterparts - they are simply the result of thousands of years of Lung Dragons mating with humans (and others), creating half-dragons, and then those half-dragons forming their own societies and 'breeding true' over time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  19:46:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spelljamming:
I never really cared for SJ (I felt the whole setting was rather silly), but it is D&D/FR canon so here's what I did with it: There was a war in space. I have no idea who or what was involved, other than the Shou and the Elves (IEN), and no-one not involved knows if they were even on the same side, or enemies (not even me LOL). It was like one of Earth's 'World Wars', but in space, so sort of like the Inhuman War, but BIGGER, involving EVERYONE. As a result, most Spacefaring races have been greatly diminished, and the Shou presence is practically non-existent (hence, Shou-Lung's focus on their planetside navy). The Spellplague also took a major toll on Spelljamming, with many Spheres 'going dark' (magically) for a time, leaving millions stranded (this was called something else in The Planes - help me out here. Was that the 'war' the Empyrean Odyssey was about?) The Mercane (Arcane) were particularly hurt by all of this, since many of their 'products' simply ceased working. Angry customers - and also groups angry over them selling stuff to their enemies during the war - attacked many of their outposts, and the Mercane haven't recovered. Thus, they are more picky about who they do business with, and their prices have skyrocketed. A single Helm strong enough to lift a Shou Dragonship is now a billion gold! The Shou have a few of their old ones left, and they guard these jealously, just using them mostly for stuff on the water so as to blend-in with their other ships (they will only use the Helms for quick travel in emergencies, and when no witnesses are around). Wa has NONE left. they only had a few and they were all destroyed during the Space War. they have no interest at this time of returning to space, instead focusing on countering Shou's Imperial designs on everyone else (and in this, they have a tentative - albeit untrusting - alliance with Koryo).

Modernization:
I've added-in a lot of anime elements in my version as well, but I tried to keep them low-key and a little more mature. In Shou Lung (during the 3e period), 'magic Eggs' became very popular among the poor. Local hedge-Wujen (that's a thing LOL) would paint special eggs with a Yin-Yang on them, and the eggs could be used to 'capture' magical beasts and animals. Young folks would acquire some of these eggs and become 'Beastmasters', and do battle with one-another (arenas were even built in some places!) Not to be out-done, certain sects of Shugenja down in Tu'Lung used Placards (a canon magical tool used in OA) to summon and control beasts and animals, and even more powerful monster types (some say they've even figured out ways to combine them). Battles between the Anipriests and the Beastmasters have thus far been very rare, but with the two nations at constant war, its only a matter of time before this 'pastime' becomes weaponized.

There is also a group of 'State Wujen' (like FMA), who are very much like witch/demonhunters - they go around the countryside operating solo or in small specialized groups to destroy any sort of supernatural evils. This hasn't sat too well with the commoners, who have always felt 'placating the spirits' was the better option to fighting them. They mostly ignore normal criminals though (their goal is to eliminate threats to humanity, not fight humanity itself). So, there are other groups of 'bounty-hunter' type vigilantes who hunt down people on Tanchin's 'Most wanted' lists (all his political enemies and anyone else who have pised him off - its a LONG list). Some groups of Ninjas have gone into this line of work (which is considered dishonorable in the islands, where Ninja Clans are still old-school and highly respected). However, the occupation of Kozakura has forced many of these clans to abandon their ancestral lands and callings and thus they have found new residence on the mainland.

Along with all of that there is a growing trend among regular (non-monster placard) Shugenja that their normal rivalries have become outright animosity and have lead to violence. This is most prevalent among the elemental-specialist temples (which most are), and thus far the most aggressive have been the fire-users. They common folk call this type of magic 'Elemental twisting', and the users, 'Twisters'.

And thats all for now - a MUCH more interesting place than it ever was in 1e, 2e, or 3e.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2018 19:50:22
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  20:08:24  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
darm, those eggs are just plain awesome. :)

and I'm a sucker for the kuni witch hunter in l5r, and your state wujen remind me of them a lot...well done. :)

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  20:52:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank You - the 'State Wujen' (I'd think of a better name - that's just the premise) are actually a combination of a LOT of different Anime, including FMA, Claymore, D.Gray-Man, Blood Blockade, etc. etc., and a few real-world shows, like Sanctuary, Warehouse13, Torchwood, etc. Basically, Tan Chin does NOT want anyone else to have access to high levels of magic, since that's the only thing that can truly destroy him. Thus, he setup what appears to be a beneficial group, just so he can keep tabs on anything that might prove inconvenient to him (and he can also recruit from beings they find, as well).

While the Ninja Clans of the islands are a lot like RW (and thus, like the boring K-T material), the mainland ninjas are Not like them, and non-traditionalist (which means their is much animosity between them and the 'real' ones back home). they are much less secretive, and can be hired by almost anyone to do jobs for them. So they are very similar to Naruto ninjas, but not nearly as silly (so hard to 'mature' a Shonen Jump LOL). As least Naruto tended to be more mature than most (like One Piece). But none-ninja groups have also gone into the 'odd jobs' business - there is a western branch of the Adventurer's League (founded in Cormyr and then spread all over Faerûn through the centuries) loosely based on Hunter x Hunter located in the 'borderlands' (that wetlands area that is knew to my version, between several different countries).

Also, related but not in the east are magical guilds that also take on odd jobs (Fairy Tail), most of which are in The Vast (usually one per city there). Others have sprung-up elsewhere, and they use their Wizards-in-training to perform odd jobs for folks to raise money for the schools. I'd put at least one in the east, but that would go against what I am doing with Tan Chin (and the 'dark' flavor I want for my Kara-Tur). Perhaps one in Sempaher (which is occupied by Shou Lung now), that he keeps a close eye on. If I was running a campaign, I'd probably have him eventually wipe them out (and blame it on some other group, because that's his style).

Don't get the wrong idea that this IS a giant Shonen-Jump style anime mash-up. it is VERY dark, like mystical Japanese folklore. People should NOT go out a night, especially alone. The supernatural is 'just around the next bend' everywhere in K-T. Demons looking to corrupt folk, and undead wanting to possess or even eat them. its very... unpleasant. The common-folk live in fear, and that's why they support the efforts of the state Wujen... even if they are frightened by what it means to 'go to war with' the spiritworld. What they don't realize is that tan Chin has purposely created this atmosphere - by attacking all sorts of 'spirit beings' (benign as well as malignant), he has caused all of these supernatural beings to turn belligerent. "Rule through fear" (once again, he's must be ex-CIA lol). Only the 'oldsters' remember that the 'spirits' only got riled up when Tan Chin first started going after them, but they will only mention this when drunk, or very angry, because people who bad-mouth Tan Chin tend to turn-up missing, or dead (or worse).

Picture an entire, HUGE empire where everyone is always smiling... because they are scared to death of showing any sort of distress about the situation. 'Forced Smiles' - that's what Tan Chin sees wherever he looks, and he is fine with that. He's also not entirely evil, either. More like 'lawful neutral'. He is just a tyrant - he feels the world could be better ruled by him than anyone else (so there is a wee bit of Doctor Doom thrown in there as well). Shou Lung has proven to be much more effective and prosperous since he took control, so there is that. He is afraid of Shou becoming another Imaskar, and he won't let that happen, at any cost (so there is a tiny bit of fear in him as well, which is why he is very proactive in finding any potential threats to him). There is one thing he does fear on a conscious level - Jambu-Dweepam. He has sent two entire armies (the first 50K strong, and the second 100K strong) there via ships, and none of them were ever heard from again. He then sent demons and other powerful servants to find out what was going on, but they vanished as well. He wants to go there himself at this point, but doesn't dare, because he is hearing so little out of the region (primitives in Malatra tell wild stories about 'little girls with mind-powers'). He is very worried indeed (hence, his unwillingness to commit large numbers of troops anywhere else right now).

"There's always a bigger fish".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Mar 2018 21:00:00
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  22:03:36  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
indeed

there's something surreal about droping godzilla/tarrasque/<insert personally created kaiju here> on the capital city and debating which side you are on as the capstone to your adventure. :D

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 29 Mar 2018 22:06:23
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  23:19:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Speaking of which, I don't think i ever settled on what to do with the Krakentua.

I was going to put one in Katashaka, with the rest of the Kaiju we have there, but as for all the ones that were in K-T, no clue. I feel like there is an untold story there, concerning them and the Imaskari (like something they tried to control that got away from them... it wouldn't be the first time).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11701 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  23:42:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Spelljamming:
I never really cared for SJ (I felt the whole setting was rather silly), but it is D&D/FR canon so here's what I did with it: There was a war in space. I have no idea who or what was involved, other than the Shou and the Elves (IEN), and no-one not involved knows if they were even on the same side, or enemies (not even me LOL). It was like one of Earth's 'World Wars', but in space, so sort of like the Inhuman War, but BIGGER, involving EVERYONE. As a result, most Spacefaring races have been greatly diminished, and the Shou presence is practically non-existent (hence, Shou-Lung's focus on their planetside navy). The Spellplague also took a major toll on Spelljamming, with many Spheres 'going dark' (magically) for a time, leaving millions stranded (this was called something else in The Planes - help me out here. Was that the 'war' the Empyrean Odyssey was about?) The Mercane (Arcane) were particularly hurt by all of this, since many of their 'products' simply ceased working. Angry customers - and also groups angry over them selling stuff to their enemies during the war - attacked many of their outposts, and the Mercane haven't recovered. Thus, they are more picky about who they do business with, and their prices have skyrocketed. A single Helm strong enough to lift a Shou Dragonship is now a billion gold! The Shou have a few of their old ones left, and they guard these jealously, just using them mostly for stuff on the water so as to blend-in with their other ships (they will only use the Helms for quick travel in emergencies, and when no witnesses are around). Wa has NONE left. they only had a few and they were all destroyed during the Space War. they have no interest at this time of returning to space, instead focusing on countering Shou's Imperial designs on everyone else (and in this, they have a tentative - albeit untrusting - alliance with Koryo).

Modernization:
I've added-in a lot of anime elements in my version as well, but I tried to keep them low-key and a little more mature. In Shou Lung (during the 3e period), 'magic Eggs' became very popular among the poor. Local hedge-Wujen (that's a thing LOL) would paint special eggs with a Yin-Yang on them, and the eggs could be used to 'capture' magical beasts and animals. Young folks would acquire some of these eggs and become 'Beastmasters', and do battle with one-another (arenas were even built in some places!) Not to be out-done, certain sects of Shugenja down in Tu'Lung used Placards (a canon magical tool used in OA) to summon and control beasts and animals, and even more powerful monster types (some say they've even figured out ways to combine them). Battles between the Anipriests and the Beastmasters have thus far been very rare, but with the two nations at constant war, its only a matter of time before this 'pastime' becomes weaponized.

There is also a group of 'State Wujen' (like FMA), who are very much like witch/demonhunters - they go around the countryside operating solo or in small specialized groups to destroy any sort of supernatural evils. This hasn't sat too well with the commoners, who have always felt 'placating the spirits' was the better option to fighting them. They mostly ignore normal criminals though (their goal is to eliminate threats to humanity, not fight humanity itself). So, there are other groups of 'bounty-hunter' type vigilantes who hunt down people on Tanchin's 'Most wanted' lists (all his political enemies and anyone else who have pised him off - its a LONG list). Some groups of Ninjas have gone into this line of work (which is considered dishonorable in the islands, where Ninja Clans are still old-school and highly respected). However, the occupation of Kozakura has forced many of these clans to abandon their ancestral lands and callings and thus they have found new residence on the mainland.

Along with all of that there is a growing trend among regular (non-monster placard) Shugenja that their normal rivalries have become outright animosity and have lead to violence. This is most prevalent among the elemental-specialist temples (which most are), and thus far the most aggressive have been the fire-users. They common folk call this type of magic 'Elemental twisting', and the users, 'Twisters'.

And thats all for now - a MUCH more interesting place than it ever was in 1e, 2e, or 3e.



Gotta catch 'em all?

Oh, and not twisters... lacers... available on DMs guild

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/191837/Incarnate-The-Last-of-the-Lacers?term=incarnate&test_epoch=0

Its actually not a bad conversion of Avatar the last airbender to FR, and it does specify some Kara-Tur stuff. Most importantly, its pay what you want

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Mar 2018 00:35:10
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shades of eternity
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Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  04:47:59  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-- sleyvas

the more I think about your kappa interpretation, the more awesome they get.

plus kind of curious about the bender product you found.

--- Markustay
Krakentua is a new monster by me (and that's no small feat) so well done. I once wrote for another project the idea that kaiju were an offshoot of tartarus. is there a kara-tur plane equivalent?

****************************

come to think of it.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Celestial_Empire

how accessible is the celestial bureaucracy?

could you hop to another plane and wait in line while you took a number to talk to a magistrate in a manner that would make Dragon Ball proud? :D


and is there the kara-tur equivelent of the planes of chinese hell?


check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 30 Mar 2018 05:13:20
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LordofBones
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Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  06:05:32  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Celestial Bureaucracy has its focal point in Mechanus. The Celestial Emperor lives in the Jade Palace, far from Regulus.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

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Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  13:08:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity

-- sleyvas

the more I think about your kappa interpretation, the more awesome they get.

plus kind of curious about the bender product you found.

--- Markustay
Krakentua is a new monster by me (and that's no small feat) so well done. I once wrote for another project the idea that kaiju were an offshoot of tartarus. is there a kara-tur plane equivalent?

****************************

come to think of it.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Celestial_Empire

how accessible is the celestial bureaucracy?

could you hop to another plane and wait in line while you took a number to talk to a magistrate in a manner that would make Dragon Ball proud? :D


and is there the kara-tur equivelent of the planes of chinese hell?





One thing to keep in mind regarding Kara-Tur, and we (especially BadCatMan who noted the initial idea) were discussing it sometime in the past year. Basically Kara-Tur is the land of Toril, but there's a "spirit world" that lies "parallel" to it like "lifting a veil that's covering your eyes". I like to call it a world that one can only access through belief. Westerners think its mainly allegory, but the people of Kara-Tur actually see the spirits, etc... when they focus on it. Much like the border ethereal or the shadow or the feywild, its like a reflection of this world, and the two can and do impose on each other. Or at least that's kind of the interpretation we were going with. In this case, the celestial bureaucracy is simply in the sky above Kara-Tur... and part of their reason for getting skyships was to visit "heaven".

page 165 of the 3rd edition Player's Guide to Faerun has a limited description.



I strongly recommend reading BadCatMan's description on the FR Wiki however, as its even better

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_World

Also, check out this thread, starting at page 3 in regards this subject, however, the whole subject does pertain to Kara-Tur so you might like it.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21551&whichpage=3

One interesting aspect of this that came from the discussion in my mind was the concept that the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara-Tur was "in the crystal sphere", but "out of phase"... almost similar to Abeir. From this perspective, one MIGHT/COULD say that the gods of Kara-Tur had arrived in Realmspace in a somewhat similar means as the gods of the Mulans. They were having to stay "close" to their worshippers in order to provide them divine power. In this scenario, the question becomes did they create this spirit world, or simply inhabit something that already existed and was fading from the world and populate it with their own creations/servants. I opt for the latter, that this spirit world is an echo of Toril and/or realmspace that has existed for a long time, possibly prior to it having outer planar connections and other godly entities. The gods of Kara-Tur have restrengthened the ties of this place to Faerun in my book, much as how the people of Rashemen have also done similar in their own land.... and how the people of possibly Anchorome, Maztica, Osse, and Katashaka may have done as well... for all we know this conceptual spirit world is very strong throughout Toril EXCEPT for in Faerun where belief in the outer planar gods has weakened it.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  15:04:38  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to get a feel for the Spirit World, I recommend the South Korean movie The Restless, aka Demon Empire. It's set almost entirely within a place called Midheaven, a fantastically magnificent realm of spirits and grand vistas. Amazing to watch, hard to follow. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Restless_(2006_film)
Which is what I was thinking of when I discussed merging the Spirit World and Kara-Turan Spelljamming. (IIRC there was a flying ship.) Say a dragonship in the Spirit World is an actual dragon.

The two Chinas, two Japans model of Kara-Tur makes some sense: you can have an Emperor-ruled Japan or a Shogun-ruled Japan to satisfy any Japanophile player. In addition, the whole structure of the main setting of Shou Lung and T'u Lung almost follows a yin-yang model of the Way religion: two things, alike yet opposing, each composed partially of the other. It doesn't quite pull it off, but it's nice to dream. :)

For Koryo (my favourite of the KT realms), I like to have the deposed emperor (whom I've named King U) return and establish a bleak tyrannical kingdom based heavily on North Korea, full of dark spirits and undead. I looked over Korean history, picked out some cool events and rearranged them. I also tend to change the names away from the historical and real-world sources, both to sound more or less Korean and more fantastic with a more unified culture: Silla to Xilla, for example. Otherwise, I treat it as one of the more quintessential fantasy kingdoms, and play an honourable, chivalrous knight from there inspired by the hwarang. She's also the secret daughter of King U and bears the mark of the Maraloi in her snow-white hair... My main inspiration for Koryo is the movie Shadowless Sword, for kickass Realms-style sword-and-sorcery action. I'd also give them dragon turtle ships (armoured ships with flaming cannons) and hwachas (rocket launchers!).

If you want to stick in new realms, then Kara-Tur still has some vast unexplored, undetailed places. The entire northeast corner and most of the Koryo Peninsula north of Koryo is unknown territory, bar some cryptic references.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Koryo_Peninsula
The Maraloi, probably elves of fey influence, still dwell somewhere in the north too. They could be snow elves, or elves living in ice palaces in the Land of the Snow Demons.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Maraloi

In addition, southern Kara-Tur beyond the two Malatras (the one from the KTCS and the one from Living Jungle) is unexplored, unmapped jungle, while the original Oriental Adventures hints at a yuan-ti empire down there.

There are also countries south of T'u Lung that exist on maps and are briefly hinted at, but about which almost nothing is known, like Petan and the Warring States. These are ripe for development.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Petan
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Warring_States

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki
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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  18:52:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally spin K-T's (and other OA settings) 'Spirit World' as an Asian-flavored region of the Feywild, is all. Its not an exact fit, but it its damn close enough, and we eally don't need anymore 'side planes'.

The one caveat is that actual spirits are from the Ethereal or Shadow...

You know what... maybe it is better to say their 'Spirit World' IS the Border Ethereal, which I have likened to The Mittlemarch from Michael Moorcok's multiverse, or 'The Woods between the Worlds' in Narnia. Its that 'weigh station' area between the physical world, and all the 'side planes'. That definitely works. The Feywild may be a major contributor (all the Nature Kami would come from there), but we also have the dead (and undead) and fiends, so the Border Ethereal works best.

It could also be 'The Veil' from Sword of Truth, although that seemed more like a border area directly with the Shadowfell (actually, in 5-dimensional {or more} space, a plane can have several different 'borders' all overlap). So what used to be just a narrow 'border realm' has grown into a (transitive) plane of its own, between the physical worlds and all the rest. Almost like a cosmic version of a major train terminal (and if any of you have been to NYC, like Grand Central Station, which is probably even more complex and confusing than NY's two major airports). So basically, a 'hub' thats become its own thing.

So yeah, good call - it makes more sense for the 'Spirit World' to be the Border Ethereal, and just say all the other side-planes empty into that first.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2018 18:53:05
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Baltas
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Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  21:26:16  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the issue with the Celestial Bureaucracy, aren't exactly the same as their planar counterpart, as the members of the Celestial Bureaucracy are noted to have ascended in Toril, unless the planar Celestial Bureaucracy originated on Toril.

quote:
–1887 DR
Chan Cheng unifies the warring states along the Ch`ing Tung River from
the Imperial City of Ten Mor Shou, beginning the Second Age of Shou
Lung. Blessed by the Celestial One, Chan Cheng becomes the first of the Nine Immortals.


Kwan Yin (Guan Yin), is also described as ariginating as mortal in the Realms:

quote:
–1377 DR
Using powerful Imaskari artifacts unearthed in the ruins of Thakos, the
artificer Tan Chin assassinates the Sapphire Empress Kwan Ying and assumes
the throne of Shou Lung. The new emperor renames Ten Mor Shou to Kuo
Meilan, after his consort.


In general though, Tan Chin is at least a bit of a devil figure to the Celestial Bureaucracy, resembling in ways Mara/The Demon King of thr Sixth Heaven:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ambuchar_Devayam

Further with the Celestial Bureaucracy, Brian R. James, in his "Reign of Dragons article in Candlekeep Compendium IV, had Serpens/T'ien Lung seeimingly as the precursor of the Celestial Bureaucracy:

quote:
The Celestial Dragon
-30,600 DR

Second born of Yaldabaoth was Serpens, the
Beguiler. Unlike her war-bred sister Lotan,
Serpens was more subtle and cunning in her
ambitions.
Where Lotan wished only to crush and
conquer the batrachi, Serpens wished to
learn from them. For a time, Serpens
transformed herself into the octopoid form, a
tako. In this form, she was able to better
learn the history and customs of the batrachi.
Eventually leaving the Black Sea behind,
Serpens traveled on land. Disguised as a
human woman, she traveled far and learned much.
After traveling the width and breadth of Merrouroboros for over two
thousand years, Serpens was most intrigued by mankind.
During the coming dragon flight against the aearee and the further distant Draco Holy Wars, Serpens gathered many tribes of man
and led them to safety, far to the east .These human tribes* came to know Serpens as T'ien Lung, the Celestial Dragon, and revered her as a goddess in her own right.


quote:
*Ancestors of the modern day peoples of Kara-Tur.


(Yaldabaoth is Tiamat, and the whole article can be found here:
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip )

While this is technically a fanwork, Brian R. James did canonize parts of it in "The Grand History", another articles, referring to thing it it.

With Maraloi, I wondered if they aren't connected to the LeShay, specifically an eastern branch of them.

Both are light haired, and skinned, ancient fey elven beings, and it's notable Leshay are noted to be active fairly close by - as they had contact with Imaskar, which is the precursor of the Shou Empire.

Which is another very interesting thing, which can be used.

Again, from "The Grand History of the Realms":
quote:
–2487 DR
Following the fall of Inupras and the collapse of the western Imaskar Empire,
the eastern provinces of Khati and Katakoro endure. Bearing Dhonas’s Shroud,
one of the seven False Imaskarcana, the artificer Kujawa claims the Dragon
Throne at Thakos and declares himself Emperor of Anok-Imaskar. Scholars
mark this as the start of the First Age of Shou Lung.



Edited by - Baltas on 30 Mar 2018 22:03:16
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shades of eternity
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Posted - 30 Mar 2018 :  23:28:11  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seriously loving the celestial bureaucracy as tangential spirit world that is somewhat ethereal.

However, still want the Eighteen Levels of Hell as their own separate entities to some degree. Hell, make them outsourced from the Celestial Bureaucracy and have contention from the great wheel demons/devils/yugoloths that they are "taking their jobs." :p


******************************

I do want to throw out something that's always bugged me.

the Mongols were probably one of the greater conquerors in history and their realm's equivalent, the Tuigian, did a similarly great job.

how can the heck they actually succeed when most major powers have spellcasters of some renown? Yes they can use dead magic zones, but that boxes them in and takes away their biggest advantage: mobility. Is a possibility to make them human/demon hybrids and playing up their horseman aspect as a bringer of the end of days?

An idea is to give them more natural spellcasters (druids, sorcerers) to compensate?

******************************

I like the use of chaos vs order between the horse plains and Shou Lung.

It also creates a mini blood war between the horseclans and T'u Lung. Fun fact, the acorn of Wo Mai dates back to the horseclans box set so it fits thematically.


check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 30 Mar 2018 23:33:48
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Baltas
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Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  00:21:15  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Tuigan under Yamun, could plunder Imaskari ruis for artefacts, including those that negate, or enhance magic.

Maybe even find how to control/enslave the phaerimm, which would cause a LOT of trouble for spellcasters of their enemies.

Reall-life Mongols masterfully used technology they aquired, being the first to use on a large scale (primitive) firearms in warfare.

You could also enhance the level of Eke Bayalun from level 9 to something much higgher, especially that the lore makes her up to be powerfull spellcaster. She alsso did spend her childhood with the Maraloi - the elven/fey people of her mother, and Maraloi were known to wield powerfull "alien" magic, which might be the magic of the Fey Creator race.

Another fact is that Eke Bayalun has the respect of pretty much all other spellcasters of the Tuigan clans.

quote:
Eke Bayalun, or Mother Bayalun as she Is more commonly called, Is the wife and stepmother of Yamun Khahan. This curious arrangement is the result of tribal cus-tom. When Yamun's father, the Yeke-Hoyan (great chieftain) died, Yamun was re-quired to marry the surviving wives. As wife or stepmother, there is no love between the two. Mother Bayalun Is a strong-willed woman. who looks about 50 years in age. She is different in appearance from the -Wigan, with definite elvish features. She is half-Maraloi. an ancient Eastern offshoot of the elvish nation. Her blood conceals her real age. which Is well over 100 years.Only now Is her hair beginning to turn gray and her Joints starting to stiffen. She is still quite attractive. Bayalun has only one loyalty—herself and the memory of her family. She is the only one left and she. rightly or wrongly, blames Yamun for her loneliness. Her true son died while hunting with Yamun, for which she blames him. Yamunstrangled her husband, a fact he makes no attempt to deny, although each gives different rea-sons. She harbors no love for her stepson. However, she knows he is powerful and well-loved. while she Is not. Therefore, she moves against him slowly and carefully. She is clever and patient knowing that she could outlive him if she wanted to. Bayalun'sgreatest resource is her command over the shamans and wizards of the Tuigan and other tribes. Ever since joining the Tuigan, she has demonstrated an af-finity for the magical arts. Over the yearsshe has used her position to organize, sup port. and protect the interests of the spellcasters, earning their loyalty and respect in turn. She also has a bodyguard of 1,000 men, Identified by their white kalats. As noted, Bayalun hates Yamun. Chanar. she finds a useful ally and strong man. She considers the lama, Kola, a dangerous enemy since he wields magical power and has sided with the khahan.



And while yes, Bayalun hates Yamun, but it does write she hoped to use him, until she "outlives" him.

The Tuigan horde could also recruit, or enlsave warious monsters and monster races of the wastes, to boster their forces, connecting to my above suggestion of them finding out how Imaskari controlled the phaerimm...

Edited by - Baltas on 31 Mar 2018 00:36:44
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Markustay
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Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  01:11:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back when a bunch of us were working on K-T over on the WotC boards, we had surmised that the 'Travelers' and the 'Immortals' were two different groups, with one memebr being the same to both groups. The way it played out is thus: When the Celestial Bureaucracy migrated to Toril, not all of its members came along, so many of the Asian gods were replaced with Torillian deities. The Nine Immortals had come to Toril, and helped their people (the Shou) establish themselves, going s far as to make certain regions habitable that were not previously. However, they had no intentions of staying - other groups of 'Shou' had gone to other worlds*, and the Immortals felt they were also needed elsewhere, so it was decided they would choose a new Immortal (there were only Eight at that time, as per 2e's Legends & Lore) from a native-born Torillian, bring their number to Nine, and he would find replacements for all the others over time. And so it was, and one by one the (Eight) 'Immortals' left Realmspace for elsewhere, and the nine travelers took their place. Only the first 'Traveler' (and final immortal) was the same in both groups - I believe we choose Chih Shih because of his importance in the Hordelands adventure story-arc, but it could have just as easily been Kwan Ying (or even someone else - I wish I could recall our main line of reasoning for this; I think there may have been only one canonically associated with both groups).

*The idea was that the Shou were interlopers (back when we were doing all this), because it seems their arrival and involvement with Imaskar happened quite suddenly, and since Imaskar is know for bringing large numbers of people to Toril... plus, the original K-T material from 1e OA says that the Shou came from 'The Red Earth' to Kara-Tur, which seems to imply they were from some other world. Their name - 'Shou-Lung' - literally translates to 'Receiver of the Dragon', and it was because the great Celestial Dragon had lead them to their new land (some of this may have also come from The Book of Artifacts).

However, more recently I have decided that although the Shou may still have been interlopers (in much the same way the Mulan are), I think my theoretical 'Anoque' people were actually Spiritfolk (half-fey), and if anything the Shou simply followed them (probably thanks to Tan Chin - who was both SHOU and an Imaskari - and his having taken over Anok-Imaskar). This means technically, I do not need to even have the Shou be interlopers anymore, but it might still serve to have them be, because the Celestial Bureaucracy had to be imported from somewhere, somehow.

On the other hand, time does have a way of changing my mind a lot. Is there anything we have in canon - textually or image - that says the Imaskari were not Asian? (or rather, Asian-featured). Perhaps they were like a 'Turkic' people, with an admixture of Asian and Caucasian? My other theoretical group - the Cortae - may have been mixing with migrating Haltai (native Torillian Asian-esque folk) and created the Shou out of the remnants of the Imaskari. That would mean 'pure Shou blood' isn't really so pure, and would contain large amounts of fey blood as well. I'd have to toss-out my whole premise that all OA-style settings on various worlds were founded from one 'lost' world that was destroyed (I was trying to come up with a logical reason why the cultures are so similar on so many planets). I even had it where 'Earth Chinese' were really the result of interloping from that world (or rather, a small group came over, bringing their religion with them, and they mixed with natives).

I didn't want to pull my attention away from my current projects, but I am probably going to eventually revamp all of my K-T/Imaskar history in order to blend it all more seamlessly. The ideas I had 10-12 years ago were good then, but I think I can do better now. Whatever I go with, I still have to take into account that the CB somehow interloped onto Toril at some point, even if it was just a small portion of it, and they built off of that (for example, I think Toril's Celestial Emperor is really Ao, which would make perfect sense). Another I pegged as a reskinned Torillian deity was No-Cha, god of thieves, who I picture really being an aspect of mask/Vhaeraun (although being a demipower, it might be better to spin him as an exarch of Vhaeraun now now). He's got eight limbs and glowing red eyes - sounds like a Drow god to me.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2018 01:13:54
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shades of eternity
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Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  03:09:18  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eke Bayalun sounds perfect and meshes well with the spirit world talk and gives them a new spin on an old foe. Plus I'm going to assume the weather always favors the Tuigian, unless you have one heck of a spellcaster on your side. updating blog. Ty kindly. :)

I do kinda like the idea of realms reskinning of chinese gods but going to give it some thought. Looking forward to the results and looking forward to yours. :)


edit: not sure if we should double post so did some stewing on races in Kara-tur and posting it here.

http://breadthofpopsanity.blogspot.ca/2018/03/kara-tur-some-thoughts-part-2-race-ideas.html

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 31 Mar 2018 15:19:56
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Markustay
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Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  16:58:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

when you said state wu-jen I had the state alchemists from full metal alchemist going through my head
That's primarily what they are based on, but also with a few other groups rolled into them (there would be quasi-religious undertones because they are Demon/Witch hunters, but the 'religion' would really be a front, since the whole thing is really Tan Chin's 'Black Ops' in disguise).

And as I said earlier, that name is a placeholder, because its so obviously derivative. Probably 'Imperial Magical Corps', or some-such. It would have several 'circles of power', and would be able to use circle-magic (like witches and red Wizards) to boost their power. The outermost circle is complete unaware of the deeper reasons for the things existence, but as people progress through the ranks they start to learn the group's real function - destroy or control anything that poses a possible threat to the Emperor.

Anything past the outer circle must take a special magical vow that 'attaches' the person to Tan Chin, which allows him to cast several detect spells on them without cost (including 'intent'), listen-in on their conversations if he so desires (only the innermost circle are aware he can do that), and destroy any of them at any time if he wants (Heart-stop, no save). The outermost circle are just 'grunts' and way too numerous for him to keep track of, thus he doesn't bother with the ritual (which is probably costly to perform as well).

So sort of like FMA on the surface, but underneath everything is MUCH darker.

He is more 'amorally efficient' than evil, and he will only in the rarest of circumstance use the 'instant death' on someone - he would have to have no other recourse. He is pragmatic to a fault, and would rather 'reeducate' a wayward follower than waste all that potential. One doesn't just throw-away useful tools.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  17:20:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity

I do kinda like the idea of realms reskinning of chinese gods but going to give it some thought. Looking forward to the results and looking forward to yours.
I am not sure what percentage should be 'the real deal'. And the thing is, no-one should really know some other god took up the mantle of a Chinese (and Japanese over in the islands) god's mantle. Not even the highest members of their priesthood (how would you like it to find out the god you dedicated your whole life to is a fake?) This is actually far more important in eastern mythology than western - FR commoners 'just roll with it' when they find one god was poses as another, but to the Asian mindset that would be disgraceful. The god in question might have it's whole religion fall apart in that aprt of the world.

Thus, if we do say some are interopers but most are just aliases, no-one no-setting should ever know that, and therefor it should have NO BEARING at all on how those gods look, act, or function in Realmspace. They may as well be 'the real deal'.

So why bother at all? Because it smooths the edges of some of the weirdness we get when go beyond Realmspace into the planes - we can't have ALL the Chinese gods sitting around Toril wasting time. In the Hordelands adventure series, we see Yen Wang Yeh just hanging out in Kuo Meilan, which is just plain weird to me. I tell you what - kelemvor makes a great substitute for him, but the problem is Kelemvor wasn't always around, and he is nothing like Myrkul and certainly not like Cyric. Perhaps some of these 'Gods' in the east are really Exarchs (servants) of other gods, so that the Yen Wang Yeh in Kara-Tur is really a demipower acting on behalf of the Realmsian God of the Dead in regards to K-T. In fact, it might make a lot of sense to say that when the Shou first arrived on Toril, they had a situation similar to the Mulan, and a bunch or mortals ascended after death in that first generation or two, taking up the mantles of those gods they worshiped in life, and they became 'eastern franchises' of faerûnian powers. Not all, though, but probably most.

As I said, Ao is probably just acting like the local Celestial Emperor, and I think No Cha might actually BE Vhaeraun everywhere (or, at least on most worlds where elves are know... which is just about all of them). In other words, Vhaeraun interloped into their pantheon ages ago, so it wouldn't just be a Torillian thing. Ma Yuan I prefer to be 'the real deal', because I have him also as the Copper Demon of Tros, and I am too enamored with that piece of homebrew to give it up without a fight.

And this doesn't really diverge from canon as much as you might think - there are '10,000 Gods' according to the Padhran faith, and they include ALL the gods, including the Faerunian Ones. Several FR deities are even mentioned in K-T sources. I happen to think the Padhrans got it 'the most right' - its just really all one big pantheon.

Lei Kung would make a great Teylas for the Hordelands (much better than Akadi!), but that just means he is very similar to Talos, and he might even have been Talos all along (or rather, both Talos and Lei Kung are both just aspects of Gruumsh).

Hmmmm... it might be fun to spin Gruumsh as a former giantish quasi-deity (Cyclops Empyrean?) that made a deal with Akadi - that could certainly work. Of course, no I am going of the rails here...

EDIT:
Lei Kung is described as monstrous, with 'two large tusks and a huge nose'. Hmmmmm... sounds abit Orcish to me...

EDIT2:
Ma Yuan may have been a real goddess within the Chinese (or rather, proto-Asian) pantheon, and the Ma Yuan of K-T is an ascended mortal - that makes perfect sense.

Note that in 2e Legends & Lore, the names of the four Celestial Dragons ('Dragon Kings') are...

Ao Ch'in
Ao Kuang
Ao Jun
Ao Shun

They all begin with 'Ao.
Aspects of Ao? And since I think Ao is Io (or rather, and aspect of it), and Io is 'The World Serpent', it all comes full circle and makes perfect sense that some of the fragmented aspects of the World Serpent wound up in Asiatic religion as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2018 17:30:33
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

288 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  17:49:12  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think gods being replaced by mortals is very realmsian and fits well into the celestial bureaucracy.

It also can be used in a very real way as a means of getting ahead.

you have

ancestors (aka people who were known in their life and you can "take an aspect" by taking a feat).
house gods (aka local spirits that have sworn to protect a particular area. this could be an ancestor promotion).
Local Spirit Magistrates (the spirits that control a ward or area).
City spirit magitrates
Regional heads (these represent a particular area, such as a prefecture or court).
Emperor court

then you throw in the secret societies where you have low-level officials using mortals to try to "get ahead" in the afterlife.

Some come in with a distinct advantage due to having influence elsewhere.


check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2018 :  16:15:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-shades of eternity

Neat take on the races.

With Maraloi, it was stated mot people in Kara-Tur and Taan, think of them as spirts, and their descendants as Spiritfolk, which may irritate both Maraloi and Spiritfolk, due to their Cold War.

The Maraloi have "Fey" attributes, ie even their human descendants don't use iron, which makes me think Maraloi rather don't worship the Seldarine (at least not it's most popular members) but rather Fey Gods/Archfey, and regional spirits.

The Maraloi might worship Auril (also/originally known as Aurilandür the Frost Sprite Queen). The Sossirim, are stated to worship a benevolent aspect of Auril, so they might have taken it from Maraloi.

There are also Tarsellis Meunniduin, and Rellavar Danuvien (Who is known as the "Frost Sprite King", an is also a member of the Seelie Court), both described as deities of Snow Elves, but both oppose Auril visibly. It's though said (in 2E materials, no less) Rellavar Danuvien title of the "Frost Sprite King" is "grandiose and meaningless", possibly alleadry hinting frost sprites are Auril's domain and worshippers. Both also have different portfolio's - Tatsellis portfolio is of Mountains, rivers, and wilderness; and
Rellavar's portfolio being Protection from the elements, and cold
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tarsellis_Meunniduin
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Rellavar_Danuvien
https://seekers-of-the-misty-isle.obsidianportal.com/wikis/rellavar-danuvien

Although you may not like those two, as they arguably aren't very "Asian-folklore"-like, but Auril resembles a Snow Woman spirit, like Yuki-onna, and could be seen as a very powerfull Yuki-onna.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuki-onna

Eldath could also be worshipped by Maraloi, and Tuigan learned of Eldath from contacts with Maraloi and ther descendants - which we know happens from just Eke Bayalun - from The Horde boxed set:
quote:
In addition to these two, the tribes believe in a
number of lesser gods and spirits. The beast cult
of horses is particularly important. An aspect of
Eldath is venerated, since water is so important.


This is interesting, as it could be seen more probable the Tuigan would worship aspects of the Elemental Lords as they do allready allready with Teylas and Etugen, and other peoples in the region also worship the Elemental Lords - Raumathar, and most Raumvirans were stated to have been worshipping the Elemental Lords. So it seemed probable the Tuigan would worship Istishia, yet they worship Eldath.

Eldath could also be viewed as major water spirit, as we know those are worshipped in Kara-Tur.

(I would guess Eldath and Auril would be seen as City spirit magitrates or Regional heads in the Celestial Bureaucracy)

With orcs, I also think, for better, or worse, they could be seen in Kara-Tur as having blood of Oni. Such misconception allready happen in Kara-Tur (ie taking Half-Elves for Spirit-Folk), and happened historically (The Roma people being though as being descended from ancient Egyptians, hence the name for them "Gypsy").

-Markustay

Well, it is possible that Imaskari were Turkish, at least on some level - the Imaskari languages were descibed in "Speaking in Tongues" as resembling Altaic languages - ie Turko-Mongolic languages.

Although "The Grand History of the Realms", states Imaskari are an offshoot of Durpari, and curiously, the Durpari warlord whose actions kickstarted largelly the start of Imaskar, Nemrut, is named after the Biblical figure of Nimrod - a spelling of his name essentially - who was a king in Mespotomania, of disputed historical identity who seems to bebe a composite of Ninurta, the Akkadian kings Sargon and his grandson Naram-Sin (or maybe even the WHOLE Sargonid dynasty), and Tukulti-Ninurta I of the Middle Assyrian Empire.

Durpari also have several other pseudo-Mesopotamian elements, I mentioned in the "Forgotten Realms: Alternate Dimensions Fan Magazine" thread.

But curiously, Mesopotamians DO have an enigmatic overlap with the Turkish culture - the Sumerian cuneiform "Dingir" (God), which is thought to be related to the Altaic/Turkic Tengri (which alos means Sky, or God).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri

Because of that, and other things some think Sumerian language is related to to Turkic languanges:
http://sumerianturks.org/

It isn't a mainstream theory, but still interesting, and could be fact in the Realms, especially seeing the Rauric (Mulan), languages, are descended from the Imaskari language.

And and about Mulan themselves - "Mulan", can be understood as "Denizen of Mu', the lost continent of Mu - it's used in this context for examle in the anime RahXephon.

And the Mulan, themselves were originally imagined and described as survivors of Imaskar, as described in the Old Empires sourcebook:
quote:
Toward the end of the previous age,
tribes of humans were pushed out of
the Great Kingdoms of the southeast,
which were covered in desert. Legends
speak of a great war in which powerful
humans fought against the gods to
wrest away their power. The humans
won and became god-kings, but the war
destroyed their kingdoms. These godkings,
Re and Enlil, led the shattered
remnants of their peoples into Mulhorand
and Unther. The two god-kings
and their spouses became the leaders of
the royal houses of these two nations.
The people of Unther, who prided
themselves on the purity of their race,
warred against "barbarian" peoples and
drove them from their lands, but the
god-kings of Mulhorand, who were
openly worshiped by these people, took
them in as full citizens. Since then, the
peoples of Mulhorand have primarily
been racially mixed Turami and Mulan
(the race of Unther and Mulhorand).


quote:
Timeline
-2488 DR The great kingdom of
Raurin destroyed. Exiles
flee into the west, eventually
settling on the shores of
the Alamber Sea.


From "The Horde":
quote:
The earliest of all known records describes the
great empire of Imaskar. Ruled by powerful wizards,
this empire was centered in what is now the
Raurin Desert. Its borders were vast, reaching
from Khazari to present-day Thay and across the
Shalhoond into the steppe. What caused its fall is
unclear, but from its ashes rose Mulhorand, Solon,
and Ra-Khati.


This makes me think Imaskar (or the aurin Empire), is mean to be the Realms equivalent of Mu, especially that Mu, in some versions, was not in the Pacific, or Indian Oceans, but were the current Gobi desert lies, and sank into sand.
http://www.semjase.net/semjeng10.html

Robert Howard used elements of it - Hyrkanians and Turanians (mostly proto-Turks and Proto-Mongols), were descendants of denizens of Mu/Lemuria. As were in part Stygians (pre-Egyptians), and Shemites (pre-Semities) (who came from the mixing of Stygians, maybe other Mu/Lemuria survivors, and Hyperboreans).

Sumerians themselves, according to Rober Howard, were a result of Hyrkanians and Shemites mixing together.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42182

Mu is also thought to be insoe versions the precurors of Indians, Tibetans, Chinese and Japanese (Jomon), Ancient Egypt, and Civilisations of Mesopotamia, like the Imaskari connection to Durpar, Solon, Shou, Ra-Khati, Mulhorand, and Unther.

One thing missing, would be connection to Mu is often said to have to Mayans, Aztects and Incans, but several Deep Imaskari names, are Quechuan in origin, ie among things, Incan...

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Apr 2018 17:01:26
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