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Ocule
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  17:58:48  Show Profile Send Ocule a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So from a pre spellplague, pre time of troubles game what are some of the first things you would notice as a player? As a dm?

Would it have a lower fantasy feel? Considering running out of 2e content

dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  18:07:24  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always run the realms as high fantasy and not high magic (but not necessarily low magic).

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  18:09:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule

So from a pre spellplague, pre time of troubles game what are some of the first things you would notice as a player? As a dm?

Would it have a lower fantasy feel? Considering running out of 2e content



I think all of the 2E Realmslore is going to be post-ToT, since the Time of Troubles was for that transition.

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Ocule
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  18:17:28  Show Profile Send Ocule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right now was trying to find some ways to not have too many demigods running around. Allowing mundane plagues to mess up villages and cities, and allowing some intrigue. Had an idea for Amn uniting all lands south of the sword coast such as Tethyr and Calimshan, then turning their attention north to the sword coast. Didn't wanna have pesky gods running around saying no. Ideally keeping the magic level around something like say, dragon age or witcher.
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  19:14:13  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I don't think you are in any danger of a God or demigod turning up to halt an invasion plan. There have been plenty of invasions across the realms and I don't think a demigod has yet turned up to prevent it.
This begs the question why.
In my mind a demigod is not yet a god, just a mortal who has amassed enough power to become immortal. He still has a single body and mind and is driven by the lusts of that body but he is not yet a metaphysical being powered by belief.

A demigod seeks to become a god by fostering a cult of personality that will acquire enough belief for him to ascend and last through the ages to make him truly immortal. Creating this cult requires miracles to convert non believers so why do we not see more demi gods running around being miraculous.
I think the answer is because there is an easier way to gather enough power to ascend. Slay a demigod and steal his power such as the dark three did millennia ago. If a demigod becomes meddlesome it is likely he will become prey to those wishing to join the ranks of the gods.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter and I do not follow canon anymore.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  19:30:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aside from the Time of Troubles, there's never been an issue with demigods running around everywhere.

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Ocule
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  22:50:00  Show Profile Send Ocule a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well between the seven sisters, elminster, drizzt, and some others. Their influence especially in 5e having people like Laurel Silverhand as the open lord of waterdeep is kind of hard to justify anything bad happening to waterdeep. And the other various chosen
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  23:14:14  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule

Right now was trying to find some ways to not have too many demigods running around...Didn't wanna have pesky gods running around saying no. Ideally keeping the magic level around something like say, dragon age or witcher.



I don't perceive the Realms as having gods & demigods running all over Toril... and I don't really think that running your Realms campaign in a pre-ToT time period will necessarily evoke a "low magic" feeling for your game. Present the magic in the Realms as working in whatever way you want... Especially if you set the game in a current time period, and make one teeny-tiny, itsy-bitsy change to the history of the setting... When Cyric killed Mystra, she stayed Dead, and Cyric took her Power, so... CYRIC IS MYSTRA!


quote:
Originally posted by Ocule

Allowing mundane plagues to mess up villages and cities, and allowing some intrigue. Had an idea for Amn uniting all lands south of the sword coast such as Tethyr and Calimshan, then turning their attention north to the sword coast...



These are great ideas for a campaign, you should absolutely use them... Especially since Cyric is celebrated and revered as a beloved god of FREEDOM in AMN!
He sacrificed his OWN freedom, to Liberate Toril from the shackles of the Weave! And so goes the adage of his faithful, "Freedom isn't Free"...

Soon, Freedom shall Reign across ALL of Toril from Sea to Shining Sea! FREE CYRIC!! The UNDYING SAVIOR of AMN!! US-AMN!! US-AMN!! US-AMN!!

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Irennan
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Posted - 25 Jun 2018 :  23:50:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule

Well between the seven sisters, elminster, drizzt, and some others. Their influence especially in 5e having people like Laurel Silverhand as the open lord of waterdeep is kind of hard to justify anything bad happening to waterdeep. And the other various chosen



In Death Masks, Ed Greenwood makes it very clear that El, Laeral and the sisters are but a shadow of what they used to be (when it comes to power). So, yes, bad things can happen. Especially because the bad guys are more or less ust as powerful.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  02:53:19  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we talking about game settings or game editions? You can run a pre-ToT 3.5e game without much hassle.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  03:22:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ocule

Well between the seven sisters, elminster, drizzt, and some others. Their influence especially in 5e having people like Laurel Silverhand as the open lord of waterdeep is kind of hard to justify anything bad happening to waterdeep. And the other various chosen



Mystra's Chosen were not demigods, and there were not even a dozen of them in the entire freaking solar system.

Thinking they keep bad things from happening in the entire setting is like assuming there is no crime or unpleasantness at all in the DC universe's version of the United States, because the Justice League lives there.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  08:41:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd have no problem with a label of demigod being applied to the chosen.
Other than the label what us different between say Elminster and a Demigod.

But Wooly is right, the chosen generally stay out of events as do demi gods. There aren't enough chosen of any God to interfere in every regional event that threatens stability. They seem to be more involved in potentially world shattering events but that's just bad fiction (my point of view). Leave the chosen and the demi gods and the uber powerful well out of Faeruns events, they can be off saving the world from extraplanar threats and foiling the plots of each other. That way the player characters actually get to do dome adventuring.

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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  17:35:16  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-That it's the Forgotten Realms?

-Weird question.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  18:50:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you are new to the realms then there are no weird questions.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  19:41:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

If you are new to the realms then there are no weird questions.



Sure there are! How about... Is Ghaunadaur the god of Jell-O? Do dwarven babies have beards? What would be a reasonable price to charge a halfling to eat at an all-you-can-eat buffet?

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  19:59:03  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All questions I would like to know the answer to, especially the reasonable price for a handling at an all you can eat buffet

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sleyvas
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Posted - 26 Jun 2018 :  21:52:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to note, the major difference pre-ToT is the number of demigods who were Toril Bound. Mielikki was bound to Toril. So were the Mulan deities. So was Gwaeron Windstrom. So was Eldath. So was Valkur I believe. So was Torm. So was Siamorphe. We get the idea that Nobanion and Lurue may have been as well. Possibly Iyachtu Xvim and Hoar/Assuran (we are told in Old Empires that Assuran is rumored to live on Mount Thulbane) as well. Tchazzar and Gargauth as well. I would almost say that the definition of demigod in 1e was that they were Toril Bound, but I can show that that is not the case. However, it would seem that possibly the Imaskari godswall affected deities in the Faerunian pantheon as well, such that a lot of "newer" deities had to come to realmspace SOMEHOW in a physical form. However, some also apparently didn't when they came to the Faerunian Pantheon (for instance, Tyr) which leads one to believe that possibly he had a realmspace presence in some form prior to the godswall forming.

I would also venture to say that "sponsored" deities were able to bypass the "Toril Bound" stage because of the actions of the deities within realmspace. By that, I have the feeling that Azuth, Savras, Deneir, Milil, and possibly some other deities were arisen mortals turned into servitor deities to some gods (Oghma and Mystra), and that these deities used enough power to "escalate" from within the godswall. The idea there would be that the godswall prevented deities entering, not deities exiting. However, some deities maybe didn't want to goto the "expense" of allowing a deity to immediately make it to the outer planes (say like Torm from Tyr, Iyachtu Xvim from Bane, etc..) and some may not have been able to escalate servitor deities because they themselves had no outer planar presence (i.e. like Gwaeron Windstom).


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jun 2018 22:42:42
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LordofBones
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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  01:52:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Azuth and Savras actually did start off as mortals.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  02:05:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

Especially if you set the game in a current time period, and make one teeny-tiny, itsy-bitsy change to the history of the setting... When Cyric killed Mystra, she stayed Dead, and Cyric took her Power, so... CYRIC IS MYSTRA!





That's actually a pretty good idea... Because then they'll kill off Cyric with the next edition change! Things can only get better after that.

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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  16:53:37  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

Especially if you set the game in a current time period, and make one teeny-tiny, itsy-bitsy change to the history of the setting... When Cyric killed Mystra, she stayed Dead, and Cyric took her Power, so... CYRIC IS MYSTRA!





That's actually a pretty good idea... Because then they'll kill off Cyric with the next edition change! Things can only get better after that.



I'm shocked... simply shocked by this kind of blasphemous bloodlust! Clearly, Cyric's faithful must beware of Giant Rabid Space Hamsters conspiring with Mystra's Nefarious Heretics to orchestrate and perpetuate the injustices of Deicide!!

Do not be fooled by the insidious machinations of Celestial Rodents, it will only lead a Tyranny of Hamsters!

Hamsters may take Cyric's life... but, they'll never take his... FREEDOM!!!


To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Cyrinishad
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300 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  17:03:37  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

If you are new to the realms then there are no weird questions.



Sure there are! How about... Is Ghaunadaur the god of Jell-O? Do dwarven babies have beards? What would be a reasonable price to charge a halfling to eat at an all-you-can-eat buffet?



Jell-O is actually Ghaunadaur's maiden name...

Dwarven Beards ARE their babies...

And the last one is a trick question... It doesn't matter how much you charge the halfling, because he stole your wallet and is paying you with your own money anyway.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 27 Jun 2018 :  21:16:51  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think all of the 2E Realmslore is going to be post-ToT, since the Time of Troubles was for that transition.

Except Arcane Age (Cormanthyr and Netheril).
And lots of history in all regional sourcebooks.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Bragi
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Posted - 28 Jun 2018 :  20:49:31  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that the most noticeable difference is going to be with the pantheon. Some of the deities ascended during the TOT and some were destroyed. It depends on how far pre-tot you want to go. If you're going back before the fall of Myth Drannor then there will be significant differences.

In general, areas north of the Sword Coast will be much wilder and uncivilized.

I don't think it would have a lower fantasy feel. Forgotten Realms history is full of magic. Even going back to the very beginning with the first sundering of the elves and their use of high magic. I suspect if you go back far enough, some areas will feel higher fantasy than the current setting. For example, the floating cities of the Netherese.

If you're looking for a lower fantasy setting, instead of trying to change the timeline you should consider changing the location within the realms. I think that Maltra - the living jungle, in particular, has a very low fantasy feel to it.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin

Edited by - Bragi on 28 Jun 2018 20:51:21
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sleyvas
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Posted - 28 Jun 2018 :  22:17:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, TECHNICALLY, the concept of specialist wizards who specialized in schools wasn't "learned about" until after the ToT (although some could argue that the red wizards were specialists... and there's some arguments that the red wizards had learned how to dual-specialize). I don't think there's been any thing to break this old canon statement (though I'm betting we could use NPC's who are later listed as specialists but who existed prior to the ToT for argument's sake to retroactively change canon). Wild magic was also a "new" discovery after the ToT.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Jun 2018 :  01:03:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, TECHNICALLY, the concept of specialist wizards who specialized in schools wasn't "learned about" until after the ToT (although some could argue that the red wizards were specialists... and there's some arguments that the red wizards had learned how to dual-specialize). I don't think there's been any thing to break this old canon statement (though I'm betting we could use NPC's who are later listed as specialists but who existed prior to the ToT for argument's sake to retroactively change canon). Wild magic was also a "new" discovery after the ToT.



That was one thing that bugged the crap out of me when I got the Complete Wizard's Handbook -- the book was written around the assumption that you'd be playing a specialist mage, not a general mage. Reading it, I got the impression that the author(s) were assuming that everyone would naturally want to be a specialist, and that no one would even consider not going that route.

Certainly, I'd admit that there was benefit to being a specialist, but it never appealed to me. Thus, I felt that book was moderately useless.

Wild mages, on the other hand -- LOVE that concept!

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jun 2018 01:05:04
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sfdragon
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Posted - 29 Jun 2018 :  03:23:09  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I couldnt stand the cant cast spells of school a when you are a specialist of school B.

so generalist for me

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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