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 Any idea why the T'uLung emperor was in Mulhorand?
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
259 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  18:16:54  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Does Mulhorand really fits the concept of "good" in a universe where good is a tangible force? I guess, yeah, is more good than Unther, but with its slavery and stuff, I cannot catalog it less than Neutral going to Lawful Evil.

I mean, yes, it can be considered "good" by Tu' Lung standards, but it cannot be really good (not while willingly depriving others of their freedom), and therefore cannot be of use of the Way, that works with the actual concept of good.



Bear in mind that its slavery is looked over by the church and its slaves are treated well and not abused. I wouldn't say its evil, because in other cultures peasants are left to fend for themselves, provide their own housing, compete for the lowest dollar... such that in some cultures free folk may actually live worse than slaves kept in other cultures. In fact, that's the mantra in Mulhorand... that the slaves in Mulhorand live better lives than free folk in other cultures... what if that's true? I'm not looking to start a whole argument over the good/evil nature of slavery, but it is worth considering.

In view of "the way" this would seem more like the people of Mulhorand are followers of the Dark Way. They believe in the superiority of the Mulan folk. They believe in the superiority of their religion. Therefore, they see themselves as necessarily needing to "guide" the lesser folk down the "correct path" (which isn't necessarily evil).

Man, that really fits the idea I had of Siamorphe getting imported into Mulhorand and T'u Lung both. Most people in the game would agree that she's a good deity, and yet at the same time she's definitely a follower of the Dark Way and I bet most would equate the Dark Way with evil.

BadCatman.... you just infected me.... thank you...



It matters nothing how those people looks at slavery, because in the Realms, the very concepts of good, evil, law, chaos and neutrality are tangible forces (just like gravity or electricity here—even more greater, as those concepts seems to have a consciousness). So, we have to take into account those stuff from the viewpoint of the concepts themselves, not of the people.

That the Mulhorandi are masochists who like to be enslaved because they lack the ability to live and think for themselves doesn't means that deprivation of freedom is something that the concept of good will accept as good.

So yeah, I'm with you in the theory: the emperor of Tu'Lung is a Dark Way follower and was doing Dark Way stuff in Mulhorand, because that place is perfect for the practitioners of the Dark Way.

—Is there a catch?
—There's always a catch, life's a catch, so catch it while you can...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Jun 2017 18:20:20
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  00:44:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Does Mulhorand really fits the concept of "good" in a universe where good is a tangible force? I guess, yeah, is more good than Unther, but with its slavery and stuff, I cannot catalog it less than Neutral going to Lawful Evil.

I mean, yes, it can be considered "good" by Tu' Lung standards, but it cannot be really good (not while willingly depriving others of their freedom), and therefore cannot be of use of the Way, that works with the actual concept of good.



Bear in mind that its slavery is looked over by the church and its slaves are treated well and not abused. I wouldn't say its evil, because in other cultures peasants are left to fend for themselves, provide their own housing, compete for the lowest dollar... such that in some cultures free folk may actually live worse than slaves kept in other cultures. In fact, that's the mantra in Mulhorand... that the slaves in Mulhorand live better lives than free folk in other cultures... what if that's true? I'm not looking to start a whole argument over the good/evil nature of slavery, but it is worth considering.

In view of "the way" this would seem more like the people of Mulhorand are followers of the Dark Way. They believe in the superiority of the Mulan folk. They believe in the superiority of their religion. Therefore, they see themselves as necessarily needing to "guide" the lesser folk down the "correct path" (which isn't necessarily evil).

Man, that really fits the idea I had of Siamorphe getting imported into Mulhorand and T'u Lung both. Most people in the game would agree that she's a good deity, and yet at the same time she's definitely a follower of the Dark Way and I bet most would equate the Dark Way with evil.

BadCatman.... you just infected me.... thank you...



It matters nothing how those people looks at slavery, because in the Realms, the very concepts of good, evil, law, chaos and neutrality are tangible forces (just like gravity or electricity here—even more greater, as those concepts seems to have a consciousness). So, we have to take into account those stuff from the viewpoint of the concepts themselves, not of the people.

That the Mulhorandi are masochists who like to be enslaved because they lack the ability to live and think for themselves doesn't means that deprivation of freedom is something that the concept of good will accept as good.

So yeah, I'm with you in the theory: the emperor of Tu'Lung is a Dark Way follower and was doing Dark Way stuff in Mulhorand, because that place is perfect for the practitioners of the Dark Way.



Bear in mind, lack of freedom in game terms does not equal "not good". Lack of freedom essentially means "more strict laws". Therefore, in many ways that would not be a good/evil argument, but a law/chaos one. I know it sounds wrong, but think about it from the defining pieces of the alignment system.

Meanwhile, if we were to weigh the good/evil aspects:
Person in another society, do they possibly receive medical aid from the church for free if they need it?
Mulhorand - yes.... Other areas - Not necessarily
Answer - Mulhorand is good

Person in another society, do people make sure that they have adequate housing?
Mulhorand - yes.... Other areas - Not necessarily
Answer - Mulhorand is good

Person in another society, do people make sure that they are not starving?
Mulhorand - yes.... Other areas - Not necessarily
Answer - Mulhorand is good

So, in many ways, comparing Mulhorand against other societies, one could actually consider them bordering on good. I definitely wouldn't call them evil (unlike Thay and Unther, which I'd have no problem calling evil).

Still, in comparison with "the way" that BadCatman was talking about, the Mulhorandi are definitely following the Dark Way, because they believe they are superior in their society and that they have as a result a responsibility to shepherd lesser beings and make sure they are taken care of, even at the expense of their freedom.

If T'u Lung truly believed in the following of the way (which I'd have to read)... it could prove interesting with this emperor, because I was discussing them allying with both followers of Set and Siamorphe to try and recover their throne. While this seems a little alien in my western mindset, this might seem perfectly normal to a follower of the dark way. They have the means to do what's necessary to retake their home and improve the lives of others (by say getting rid of whatever forces have take over and are oppressing the people), so they use whatever tools they need to use, so long as they feel they can control the tool. Unless I'm misunderstanding the concept.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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see
Learned Scribe

176 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  05:25:41  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Its odd where sometimes things come to you from.... I had made a joking thread about spaham for sale in the realms, only to have someone mention the city of Chunming. I never realized one of the major spelljamming ports is in T'u Lung.

Well, this is less one of the major spelljamming ports being put in T'u Lung, than the author of the Realmspace supplement being unable to read the map and notice he put the Shou Lung spaceport in T'u Lung. The description is very clear that he's describing "Shou Lung's city, Chunming".

This is just one of the reasons I'm of the opinion that Realmspace should be considered apocryphal. I can rant on the subject if people like.
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sleyvas
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USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  06:59:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And here I'll show my lack of Kara-Tur knowledge even further... I really need to read the boxed set in order instead of skipping around. So, I had thought T'u Lung a vassal state of Shou Lung, but its not. So, yeah, you are right... that reference to Chunming is very odd.... especially since right after it it talks all about the Shou Lung government, etc...

From Kara-Tur boxed set
#147;#147;T#146;u Lung, the wild and mysterious rebels of the south, seeped in arcane magics and full of the savage nonsense that leads men into their wars. T#146;u Lung has been at war since it broke away from Shou, almost 300 years!

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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see
Learned Scribe

176 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  10:59:27  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, yeah. Kara-Tur has two separate fantasy Chinas and two separate fantasy Japans, so you can play in your choice of Historical Strong Emperor China (Shou Lung), Historical Weak Emperor China (T'u Lung), Historical Strong Emperor Japan (Wa) and Historical Weak Emperor Japan (Kozakura).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29893 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  12:15:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Its odd where sometimes things come to you from.... I had made a joking thread about spaham for sale in the realms, only to have someone mention the city of Chunming. I never realized one of the major spelljamming ports is in T'u Lung.

Well, this is less one of the major spelljamming ports being put in T'u Lung, than the author of the Realmspace supplement being unable to read the map and notice he put the Shou Lung spaceport in T'u Lung. The description is very clear that he's describing "Shou Lung's city, Chunming".

This is just one of the reasons I'm of the opinion that Realmspace should be considered apocryphal. I can rant on the subject if people like.



Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way. I like that sourcebook, with the exception of the entries on Toril and Selūne (and Caer Windlauer).

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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
194 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  14:37:20  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BadCatman.... you just infected me.... thank you...


Heh. Should I feel guilty? Nah.


I should note that the Light Way and the Dark Way don't quite match D&D's notions of Good and Evil, as intended. Broadly, the White Chung Tao help others, while the Black Chung Tao help themselves, but in practice, a White Chung Tao could split the empire and help a tyrant to power for some sense of balance, while a Black Chung Tao could do good deeds in enlightened self-interest. The Black Chung Tao are less Evil, more Objectivist or Nietzschean, perhaps. :) The Yin–Yang philosophy means they're ultimately too alike and are partially composed of the other. When interfacing with Faerūnian philosophies, it could produce some very interesting and uncomfortable comparisons, like Sleyvas suggests. For example, Selūne and Shar are a perfect match for the Light and Dark Ways, but this invokes the Dark Moon heresy that they're basically one and the same.

I also agree with Sleyvas that slavery is the ultimate expression of Law more than anything. In Chaos, people do what they will; in Law, people do what they must. In feudalism, serfs are slaves in all senses of the words, and in most societies people get only limited choices about their careers, in wage-slavery or contractual work. It's not a great leap to take the choice away completely. Goodness also depends on where and how the slaves are sourced: having criminals work off debt to society rather than be executed can often be seen as good.

I once ran a campaign in Chessenta where PCs and NPCs began discussing the local slavery of criminals and debtees, with one merchant boasting he'd been a slave once, "It builds character." I got the PC paladin of Sune arguing for slavery. :D

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If T'u Lung truly believed in the following of the way (which I'd have to read)... it could prove interesting with this emperor, because I was discussing them allying with both followers of Set and Siamorphe to try and recover their throne. While this seems a little alien in my western mindset, this might seem perfectly normal to a follower of the dark way. They have the means to do what's necessary to retake their home and improve the lives of others (by say getting rid of whatever forces have take over and are oppressing the people), so they use whatever tools they need to use, so long as they feel they can control the tool. Unless I'm misunderstanding the concept.


I think so, but the Black Chung Tao, followers of the Dark Way, are more about helping themselves, specifically believing "the superior man has a duty to shape the universe to his ends; directing the unenlightened of the Earth to a higher goal." So, help you help me. :) If liberating and reforming the country is useful to them (say because they live in it and want it better for them), then yeah, I think they'd do that, with an ends-justify-the-means attitude.

Unfortunately, the nature of the Way in T'u Lung isn't specific. It exists and is apparently strong there, but I can only speculate that it's the Dark Way that is prevalent there. Disappointingly, there's nothing solid about the Way in T'u Lung. Although, rather obviously, the E'Do formal gardens are centred on a great pool in the form of the Yin Yang symbol.


As for Chunming, one could be charitable and say, as part of T'u Lung, Chunming was once a part of Shou Lung. And with the no-doubt back-and-forth wars between the two, it could have been retaken by Shou Lung sometimes. With a spelljammer port, the city must be a key target.

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see
Learned Scribe

176 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  08:40:49  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

As for Chunming, one could be charitable and say, as part of T'u Lung, Chunming was once a part of Shou Lung. And with the no-doubt back-and-forth wars between the two, it could have been retaken by Shou Lung sometimes.

Chunming is six hundred miles from Shou Lung. It is shielded by rough terrain. And any supply line to forces trying to take Chunming would be reasonably close to and downriver from the T'u capital of Wai. So as a matter of military geography, there's really no practical way to put Chunming under Shou rule without the de facto conquest of all T'u Lung first, except maybe by a flotilla seizing it from the sea. At which point it would be too vulnerable to T'u Lung counterattack and too far from Shou Lung's population centers to be a sensible basis for a Shou spelljamming port anyway.

Further, the Shou, by the Spelljammer boxed set, keep their national spelljamming program a secret from the citizenry - "Not one Shou native in 10,000 knows of the dragonships". So they would need another, secret port, not in a major captured city, for their own ships anyway. Which would also suggest they like to keep all spelljamming quiet, which would be inconsistent with Realmspace saying that the Shou officials require spelljammers fly over Chunming before landing, and that spelljammer crews are "accepted and even envied by the everyday citizen."

The author of Realmspace knew neither the Realms nor Spelljammer very well, and it sticks out all over the place. (Did you know Calimport is "on the continent of the Heartland"? Neither did I until I read Realmspace.)
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  14:16:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

As for Chunming, one could be charitable and say, as part of T'u Lung, Chunming was once a part of Shou Lung. And with the no-doubt back-and-forth wars between the two, it could have been retaken by Shou Lung sometimes.

Chunming is six hundred miles from Shou Lung. It is shielded by rough terrain. And any supply line to forces trying to take Chunming would be reasonably close to and downriver from the T'u capital of Wai. So as a matter of military geography, there's really no practical way to put Chunming under Shou rule without the de facto conquest of all T'u Lung first, except maybe by a flotilla seizing it from the sea. At which point it would be too vulnerable to T'u Lung counterattack and too far from Shou Lung's population centers to be a sensible basis for a Shou spelljamming port anyway.

Further, the Shou, by the Spelljammer boxed set, keep their national spelljamming program a secret from the citizenry - "Not one Shou native in 10,000 knows of the dragonships". So they would need another, secret port, not in a major captured city, for their own ships anyway. Which would also suggest they like to keep all spelljamming quiet, which would be inconsistent with Realmspace saying that the Shou officials require spelljammers fly over Chunming before landing, and that spelljammer crews are "accepted and even envied by the everyday citizen."

The author of Realmspace knew neither the Realms nor Spelljammer very well, and it sticks out all over the place. (Did you know Calimport is "on the continent of the Heartland"? Neither did I until I read Realmspace.)



So, perhaps a good question to do here is to say "how can I make this true to the realms". We may not be able to, but its a time honored realms tradition, and often gives us some of our best lore.

From some of what I posted, we know T'u Lung has been separated from Shou Lung for 300 years, so having it once being a port doesn't work.... or does it?

What if spelljammers (and other flying ships) were landing in Kara-Tur more than 300 years ago, but the Shou only started building their own fleet relatively recently. For instance, we know Netheril had a few spelljammers prior to -1064 DR (2795 NY) and were hard into spelljamming from -1064 DR to -964 DR (2895 NY) and they did continue to use spelljammers until the city of Farenway (Yeoman's Loft) was destroyed by Karsus' Folly. Why would it be that Netheril ONLY went into the skies looking to trade? Why not have it that they also traded with Kara-Tur and via the city of Chunming.

That may have been when the ruling that any spelljammers had to fly over the city had to be instituted. Maybe Chunming is setup with skyward facing "aerial assault" implacements of some sort specifically for sky defense.

So, why doesn't everyone know about spelljamming then? What if the crews are told they must keep their point of origin secret and that they may only travel in certain portions of the city. The people of Chunming could easily be told that these flying ships are simply from other areas of Toril (for instance, Halruaa).... they don't have to know that they're from the depths of space and/or other crystal spheres. In fact, Shou Dragonships and Wa may land in Chunming as well for trade with other spelljamming crews simply because its a neutral territory (they could also use the moon Selune for this purpose, but given the xenophobic view of the people on the moon, the Shou and Wa empires may not like doing that).

So, how is it that the average Shou doesn't know about spelljamming? Maybe they know about the dragonships... but like the above, they don't know that they can travel outside of realmspace. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there are triple the number of dragonships that are only able to fly the terrestrial skies, similar to how Halruaan Skyships are available for times of war.

So, why would Chunming allow itself to be so used? The extra couple pennies tax that's listed for spelljamming vessels should just flatly be thrown out. It should cost a decent amount of money to port in a terrestrial space and trade without the common folk fearing you. There should be some "aerial defense tax" that needs to be funded, and in order to land it has to be paid. Something on the order of a few hundred gold would seem to fit (and possibly higher for unknown travelers... the Shou and Wa people's may get a "tax break" for being local). However, as a result the city's resources are made available to spelljamming crews (which should include greek fire and the oil used for bombards, since dragonships are known to have them). In fact, having T'u Lung become a center for Alchemists that Markustay put forth sounds like a damn good idea right now. If the Yakuza are as prominent as I believe in T'u Lung then perhaps they are heavily involved with spelljamming negotiations.

So, why doesn't T'u Lung travel into space with their own spelljammers? Well, maybe they approached the Arcane and their corruption and double dealing made the Arcane not want to deal with them, instead dealing with the more honorable Shou and Wa empires. Maybe the people of T'u Lung are trying to acquire helms clandestinely, but the other two empires have spies in the court of T'u Lung, and whenever they DO acquire a helm, it gets stolen or destroyed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1074 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  16:24:48  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A fantastic Kara-Tur thread has now evolved into a fantastic Spelljammer thread. This is what good lore nuggets do--spur discussions that take the reader to unexpected places. Keep up the good work folks!

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  16:58:32  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know much about Spelljammer. I tend to treat spelljammers as like UFOs really. :)

The simplest patch might be that there's two Chunmings, one in the north, one in the south. Or that the Kara-Tur sections of Realmspace are three centuries out of date, or that spacers aren't aware of / don't care about the distinction.

Ah, nope, it's post-1357: An Ching Wang in Realmspace also appears in the KTCS (page 35), from the Shou Lung town of Cham Fau. Only Realmspace renames her boyfriend from Chien Jang Liang to Yu Fu Tieh – merging the names of two unrelated NPCs on the same page, Yu Fu Fang and Hu Tieh. That's an amazing fail in basic reading. (Though, to be fair, the KTCS misnames An Ching Wang as An Ching Hua on the same page, changing her family name.)

With that kind of sloppiness, and renaming Faerun to Heartland, the spelljammer port could be in any city in Shou Lung, and not in Chunming at all. Cham Fau is a fair choice: it's sufficiently closely associated and similarly named for our cross-eyed designer, and is the most well-detailed settlement in the Kara-Tur setting, being its adventure town.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  17:43:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would say that the easiest fix is that Realmspace is a sort of travelogue written by someone who, for whatever reason, relied entirely on others for the information about Toril and Selūne.

As my username indicates, I'm a huge fan of Spelljammer. It's my first love of D&D settings.

But Realmspace has wonky info about Toril, and Krynnspace had wonky info about Krynn... I don't know enough about Oerth to know if Greyspace's info was wonky, but we have 2 cases out of three where there is a conflict between Spelljammer lore about a world and the setting info about that world. Thus, I tend to discount whatever Spelljammer lore exists for a campaign setting world. Other planets in the system, we have no conflict. But the main campaign worlds? No, I stick with material explicitly written for them.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Jun 2017 22:48:03
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  22:22:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

A fantastic Kara-Tur thread has now evolved into a fantastic Spelljammer thread. This is what good lore nuggets do--spur discussions that take the reader to unexpected places. Keep up the good work folks!



I gotta say Brian.... when I started this thread, I indeed did not expect it to go here. However, I've probably learned more on Kara-Tur and T'u Lung this last month discussing this than ever before, and it really makes me want to read more. Thank you.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  22:56:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

I don't know much about Spelljammer. I tend to treat spelljammers as like UFOs really. :)

The simplest patch might be that there's two Chunmings, one in the north, one in the south. Or that the Kara-Tur sections of Realmspace are three centuries out of date, or that spacers aren't aware of / don't care about the distinction.

Ah, nope, it's post-1357: An Ching Wang in Realmspace also appears in the KTCS (page 35), from the Shou Lung town of Cham Fau. Only Realmspace renames her boyfriend from Chien Jang Liang to Yu Fu Tieh – merging the names of two unrelated NPCs on the same page, Yu Fu Fang and Hu Tieh. That's an amazing fail in basic reading. (Though, to be fair, the KTCS misnames An Ching Wang as An Ching Hua on the same page, changing her family name.)

With that kind of sloppiness, and renaming Faerun to Heartland, the spelljammer port could be in any city in Shou Lung, and not in Chunming at all. Cham Fau is a fair choice: it's sufficiently closely associated and similarly named for our cross-eyed designer, and is the most well-detailed settlement in the Kara-Tur setting, being its adventure town.




I had thought about doing something like that too (two Chunmings), but yeah, it doesn't fit well. However, I do like the idea of Shou Lung having its own city. Maybe make both? Have T'u Lung offering docking for spelljammers (and other flying ships), but the Arcane won't sell them a helm..... Wa and Shou Lung snickering at the T'u Lung emperor for not being able to make an aerial navy.

I don't like cham fau though because it is so landbound.


What about the city of Karatin? Its on the ocean. Its people are known as the sealords and their men are known for going on long voyages. Its kind of isolated and surrounded by woods, so ships could come and go and it might be a secret of this province that they have spelljammers. Of course, the emperor knows, but he feels no need to tell the rest of his provinces. Maybe here they require all flying ships to follow the more normal rules and land and sail in. Maybe they require them to declare themselves as spelljammers on their own and pay the appropriate simple docking fee.... and if you break this simple measure of honest trade, they will seize your ship's helm in the name of the emperor (for you are obviously spies in advance of an invasion).

Below from Kara-Tur campaign setting

Hai Yuan (The Maritime Provinces)

The Land: Moving southwest from the upper Hungtse, the land turns from river basin to dense jungle and swamp, ending in a brackish tidal area at the sea. The many inlets, coves and heavy foliage make this area nearly impossible to farm, but provide excellent cover for pirates, smugglers and other brigands, who still inhabit this area today.

History: These lands were originally known as the Karatin Provinces, and indeed, the capital city of the province is still named Karatin. However, at the the time of the Great Pirate Lords, this region was mostly swamp and jungle. By the command of the first Emperor Chin of the Hai Dynasty, the region around the city of Karatin was drained and diked, making it into a fertile basin. In honor of this achievement, the province was named Hai Yuan (the Maritime Provinces).

The People: The Hai are an adventurous race, but also arrogant, stubborn, and loud in bearing. They are also the most self assured of all the Shou, and seem to flaunt it with their incredible audacity. A Hai will attempt almost any feat, simply because he believes that as a superior man, he will obviously succeed. They are sea traders and occasional pirates, whose houses are built on stilts to protect them from floods, and whose ships are the fleetest of all the Empire. They rarely eat meat, preferring fish, and have learned the dishes of sushi and sashimi (two types of raw fish, one with pickled rice) from the Kozakurans. As a counterpart to the ethereally beautiful women of Sheng Ti, the Hai are said to produce the handsomest men in all the Empire.
And they know it.

Cities or Places of Note: Karatin, the largest city, is claimed by the Hai to be the home of the legendary Sea Lords of Karatin. Also on the coast is Taoshin, a large seaport city with trade to the east. Above the drained ground is Keelung, a high plateau city famed for its tea and extremely fine silks. Shansin, a heavily fortified city, sits on the T#146;u Lung border as does Meoling.
Both are known for plots and intrigues. In the ruins and almost lost is Shou Yang, a deserted jungle city, once terrorized by the Black Leopard Cultists.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 10 Jun 2017 :  03:22:46  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds good. :)

More evidence for the spelljammer port being misplaced: the others are in Waterdeep, Calimport, and Iiso, all major trade-port cities in their respective settings, while Chunming is only ever mentioned in passing in the KTCS and we otherwise know nothing about the place.

I had another idea on Chunming though, perhaps fitting with Sleyvas's earlier idea. In our world, North Korea and South Korea jointly operated some industries on the border, in the Kaesong Industrial Region, despite being politically at war, because it was advantageous to the both of them. Similarly, despite often being at war, perhaps Shou Lung and T'u Lung have a special treaty for joint use of the Chunming spelljammer port (which used to be a part of Shou Lung before the empire split)?

This could explain the tight economic and political controls over the place, and spelljamming may be both well known inside the enclave (which spelljamming crews only ever see the inside of), but a national secret outside. Realmspace says An Ching Wang's boyfriend crippled Master Wang Ho to prevent him dishonouring Shou Lung by taking kensai training to space – perhaps this would be in violation of a treaty?

Hence the port could be a Shou Lung–run enclave outside the city. Shou Lung provides the spelljamming expertise and management, while T'u Lung maybe provides labour and services, and both profit and get to exert political influence over each other and over the skies. Similarly, it's a neutral site for meetings and full of much intrigue between the two rival empires and space-borne powers, with repeated shut-downs when things get tense.

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Edited by - BadCatMan on 10 Jun 2017 03:24:02
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sleyvas
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Posted - 10 Jun 2017 :  03:31:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Sounds good. :)

More evidence for the spelljammer port being misplaced: the others are in Waterdeep, Calimport, and Iiso, all major trade-port cities in their respective settings, while Chunming is only ever mentioned in passing in the KTCS and we otherwise know nothing about the place.

I had another idea on Chunming though, perhaps fitting with Sleyvas's earlier idea. In our world, North Korea and South Korea jointly operated some industries on the border, in the Kaesong Industrial Region, despite being politically at war, because it was advantageous to the both of them. Similarly, despite often being at war, perhaps Shou Lung and T'u Lung have a special treaty for joint use of the Chunming spelljammer port (which used to be a part of Shou Lung before the empire split)?

This could explain the tight economic and political controls over the place, and spelljamming may be both well known inside the enclave (which spelljamming crews only ever see the inside of), but a national secret outside. Realmspace says An Ching Wang's boyfriend crippled Master Wang Ho to prevent him dishonouring Shou Lung by taking kensai training to space – perhaps this would be in violation of a treaty?

Hence the port could be a Shou Lung–run enclave outside the city. Shou Lung provides the spelljamming expertise and management, while T'u Lung maybe provides labour and services, and both profit and get to exert political influence over each other and over the skies. Similarly, it's a neutral site for meetings and full of much intrigue between the two rival empires and space-borne powers, with repeated shut-downs when things get tense.



I like this idea... it becomes something of an Shou embassy of sorts. In fact, it might act as such as well. It keeps foreign spelljammers outside of Shou territory, where they could possibly be a threat. Meanwhile, it gives T'u Lung access to some of the trade that they'd be able to do had they their own spelljammers, but probably at exorbitant price increases. The question becomes, what exactly are spelljammers bringing in that can't be gotten locally for cheaper? Oh wait, I already know that.... space-bred spaham...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Jun 2017 03:36:20
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see
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Posted - 10 Jun 2017 :  04:00:31  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
People who do deals with beholders and mind flayers and scro are unlikely to find T'u Lung objectionable on ethical grounds. My personal interpretation would be that the T'u Lung are too disunited a country to be able to manage a serious space program. 100,000+ gp per spelljamming helm makes any sort of effort expensive, and the obvious alternative is spending that on something that can protect you from noble factions more cost-efficiently.

Chunming's local notable (Shin So Tang, administrator of the Shin district in Ausa province) might well be the one responsible for it being a spelljammer port, seeking wealth from exotic trade to help him in his continual plotting for the "downfall of the usurping Wai family" that currently rules T'u Lung. Perhaps he's even trying to make contacts with mercenary spelljammers to support his "very powerful" faction, in order to attempt a coup or civil war backed by flying ships. The taxes and fees are cheap because Shin So Tang knows if he was obviously filling his coffers directly (instead of through some trading houses he secretly controls), other T'u nobles would seek to get in on the trade, or ban him from it; he's playing a subtle game where they dismiss his decision to invite outlandish foreign barbarians into the city as a senseless eccentricity. Instead, his fair fees and reasonable polices make the city a favored stop for spelljammers on the surface of Toril, with Waterdeep the only port even remotely as hospitable. Where Realmspace erroneously speaks of the "Shou Lung" hiring foreign mages from the stars, it's actually talking about Shin So Tang.

And now, of course, the reason the young T'u emperor winds up going to Mulhorand is that Shin So Tang's plots succeeded. In an attack financed with the proceeds from exotic trade, used to hire flying ships and foreign wizards, the Wai clan was driven from power in favor of the Shin clan, descended from the first T'u emperor Shin Ginsen. The deposed Emperor is looking for his own exotic backing with the magical secrets of an ancient civilization to retake power from the re-ascendent Shin.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 10 Jun 2017 :  04:35:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Realmspace also describes a spelljamming port on Nimbral -- something not even hinted at in Ed's later series of articles on Nimbral.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 10 Jun 2017 :  05:39:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

People who do deals with beholders and mind flayers and scro are unlikely to find T'u Lung objectionable on ethical grounds. My personal interpretation would be that the T'u Lung are too disunited a country to be able to manage a serious space program. 100,000+ gp per spelljamming helm makes any sort of effort expensive, and the obvious alternative is spending that on something that can protect you from noble factions more cost-efficiently.

Chunming's local notable (Shin So Tang, administrator of the Shin district in Ausa province) might well be the one responsible for it being a spelljammer port, seeking wealth from exotic trade to help him in his continual plotting for the "downfall of the usurping Wai family" that currently rules T'u Lung. Perhaps he's even trying to make contacts with mercenary spelljammers to support his "very powerful" faction, in order to attempt a coup or civil war backed by flying ships. The taxes and fees are cheap because Shin So Tang knows if he was obviously filling his coffers directly (instead of through some trading houses he secretly controls), other T'u nobles would seek to get in on the trade, or ban him from it; he's playing a subtle game where they dismiss his decision to invite outlandish foreign barbarians into the city as a senseless eccentricity. Instead, his fair fees and reasonable polices make the city a favored stop for spelljammers on the surface of Toril, with Waterdeep the only port even remotely as hospitable. Where Realmspace erroneously speaks of the "Shou Lung" hiring foreign mages from the stars, it's actually talking about Shin So Tang.

And now, of course, the reason the young T'u emperor winds up going to Mulhorand is that Shin So Tang's plots succeeded. In an attack financed with the proceeds from exotic trade, used to hire flying ships and foreign wizards, the Wai clan was driven from power in favor of the Shin clan, descended from the first T'u emperor Shin Ginsen. The deposed Emperor is looking for his own exotic backing with the magical secrets of an ancient civilization to retake power from the re-ascendent Shin.



A little work would have to be done on that theory, just because of this update also in the Kara-tur boxed set which happens in 1357, and the 8th emperor "shouldn't" die until 1370 if we're going with the prophecy that his mother will see him live to 60 is correct. However, it is perfectly feasible that "the barbarian" at the emperor's court actually reveals that the Shin were framed in sending the Chunming wine (it doesn't matter who did it, just so long as the Shin are allowed to return).

Poisoned chunming pepper wine is served to the Emperor, and he gets very ill, but lives through the ordeal. He blames the Shin family of Ausa, and demands the leaders of this clan be executed and their heads be brought to him. The Shin clan is warned and escapes the punishment by hiding somewhere in the hills of E#146;sang Yi. Some believe the Nugha are in league with the Shin clan but no one can find them. An Imperial edict offers 15,000 Ch#146;ien to be split equally among the people who find and bring the Shins to justice

I do like the storyline idea though. This is similar to what I was thinking once I heard Chunming was in T'u Lung and that it was one of the major spelljamming ports. I'm picturing something where the yakuza and some other group (this idea of it being the Shin family would work) allying with outlander spelljamming mercenaries. Heck, these outlander spelljamming mercenaries may even be beholders and beholder-kin.... and the yakuza might be working with them... they do like corrupt societies.

By the way, I am so going to link the Ausa province and the islanders around the continent of Osse. Thinking centuries ago some traders got blown wayward. They called their island a colony of Ausa... corrupted later into Osse. Granted, its blatantly making Polynesian references, but I don't care.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 10 Jun 2017 :  09:54:13  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a passing thought. The prevalence of spelljamming in Kara-Tur (and Realmspace implies more ports than just Chunming, Iiso, and the Dock in the Wu Pi Te Shao Mountains) is weird and isn't supported by the on-the-ground setting (as Spelljammer rarely is). But it suggests another connection – perhaps the Celestial Empire is actually celestial and Heaven is actually in the heavens. The Celestial Empire claims dominion over "the Sky", so why not spelljamming too? The mythology, at least, has the Moon Women maintain Heaven, refilling the oil lamps in the Sun, polishing the crystal orbs of the stars, and steering the motions of the Moon and the constellations. The Shou spelljamming program could represent an effort to make good that claim or enforce it (according to their belief of 'on Earth as it is in Heaven, and vice versa'), making it a religious/political (same thing, in this case) act. Or, taken quite literally, maybe the Celestial Bureaucracy uses spelljammers to ferry Moon Women about their work.

Of course, 3rd edition placed the Celestial Empire in the Spirit World, a transitive plane only coexistent with and coterminous to Kara-Tur, but it may yet exist in space, with spirit spelljammers (or celestial lung dragons) flying through spirit space.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  00:25:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm intrigued by what you just said, but I want to repeat it back to make sure I'm understanding this concept right. At least during 1357, You would have it that the Celestial Emperor isn't on another plane. He's instead actually in wildspace in a place called "Heaven". In essence, he would be somewhat akin to the other gods which came to Toril to free their followers from the Imaskari, having no outer planar domain. He and his court would be ruling their people directly, but unlike the Mulhorandi and Untheric gods, they wouldn't attempt to live close to their subjects. The Nine Immortals would similarly be akin to the Mulhorandi Manifestations / avatars, having been as well the original 9 emperors of Shou Lung (side question... all 9 were emperors at once? Over different portions of Shou Lung?). These Nine Immortals also appear to have a draconic aspect (possibly even psionic dragons... "Nine Great Dragons which hold up the world and move all things by their thoughts"). Perhaps like the Mulhorandi they bred amongst their followers and that led to the ruling stock of Shou Lung / T'u Lung.

Meanwhile, you propose that the Shou Lung emperor uses his spelljammers to aid powerful spirit servants (such as the moon women) to perform certain tasks in wild space, such as visiting the sun, moon, stars, etc... Particularly devoted sages may be taken to "Heaven" on spelljammers to serve at the behest of the gods as servants and clerks, and may be ferried back and forth to the emperor of Shou Lung to deliver the edicts of the gods. Jade Ladies may help guide spelljammer crews to asteroids which they can then mine for gold, silver, copper, and of course jade.

Given that the precursor to Shou Lung was Anok-Imaskar, and the founding of that was at the fall of Imaskar.... maybe the Mulhorandi and Untheric Pantheons weren't the only to show up to rescue their people from the Imaskari.


Hmmm, something else kind of joins this idea that the Shou are infatuated with flight. They have gliders and a Ministry of Glorious Flight.

"One of the most amazing new inventions of the Gathering of the Pearls is the hua hsiang chi, or glider. The story behind this is interesting. It appears that while visiting his relatives in Kao Shan, the Emperor saw a young man suspended high above the. mountains in a great silk kite. His interest caught, the Son of Heaven instructed his guard to bring the bold flier to him. #147;But this is a dangerous precedent,#148; the mandarins protested. #147;Suppose someone uses a kite like this to drop great weights down upon our armies! This thing should be destroyed!#148; But the Emperor replied, #147;If it can be done, then someone else will recreate this kite, no matter what we do to its inventor! If great weights will be dropped, I am determined that we shall be the ones to do it!#148; The inventor was brought to the palace, where he was immediately proclaimed
the chief of the Ministry of Glorious Flight. Since this time, he has built many great kites, some of which can
fly without strings; much to Emperor Kai Chin#146;s pleasure."




So, then there's another possibility. The Spirit World in 3.5 replaces the astral for Kara-Tur. In essence, similar to the feywild and shadowfell, this spirit world is a reflection of Kara-Tur into another "plane" (and I use that term loosely, as this plane is finite in size) that mirrors just the portion that is Kara-Tur. What you would propose is that this Spirit World is bigger, and that it has spelljammers in it. It would also have its own "sun" and that mystical beings known as moon women can visit this sun on these spelljammers to refill this sun with oil, a reflection of the moon, and reflections of the stars.

Given that there was some big planar shift that happened between 2nd edition and 3rd edition that has never been detailed... I submit that BOTH could be correct. For instance, Siamorphe was Toril bound in 2nd edition, but in 3rd edition she suddenly had a "world tree" domain... and it was like that for several deities. The Mulhorandi deities got their own "world tree domain" as well. So, why not the Celestial Emperor and his court. However, many of the lesser servants (Jade ladies, rice spirits, moon women..... corn women (whoops)) work as celestial servants travelling between where the gods reside and Toril (the red earth) itself. So, these lesser servants could still need to be ferried by spelljammer to perform their duties in the sky.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  03:16:55  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just fanciful overreach on my part. :) I liked the idea of drawing a mystical connection to spelljamming in Kara-Tur, so it better fit the setting, and found it ready-made for it. The Celestial Empire might be the only pantheon to claim control over space, so I wondered how it would look in practice, and proposed extending the Spirit World to Realmspace. But the extent of that I'll leave open.

On that line of thought, I'd probably say the Jade Throne and the Celestial Palace could be in low geostationary orbit over Shou Lung but in the Spirit World. There, but not there, but definitely an up-in-the-sky heavenly realm like everyone pictures.

I do like the idea of spelljammers being used, at least by mortals, to visit the Celestial Heavens. Imagine one of those things, a dragonship, rising up from Chunming, flying through the sky and the stars, slipping into the Spirit World, and docking at the Celestial Palace for an audience with an Immortal or the Celestial Emperor himself. That's pretty high-level stuff, but lesser spelljamming adventurers might be ordered to carry out tasks for the Bureaucracy. It gives a good reason for the Shou space program, both to serve Heaven and to explore it (as suggested in Spelljammer material).

And perhaps a dragonship takes the form an actual oriental dragon, literally the spirit of the vessel, in the Spirit World.

The Wanese are probably doing something similar.

In myth, the Nine Immortals would appear to have been contemporaneous and simultaneously all emperors, but The Grand History of the Realms presents a more mundane history in which they're mortal emperors at different times, who later ascended. For example, Chan Cheng. As dragons, they usually manifest as oriental dragons.

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Edited by - BadCatMan on 11 Jun 2017 06:42:07
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  13:07:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A little of stretch of imagination here, but in 4e spelljammers can travel not only in space, but also through the planes. So, the idea of connecting the Spirit Plane and the Wild Space is not contradictory with recent canon.

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—There's always a catch, life's a catch, so catch it while you can...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Jun 2017 13:07:31
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  14:07:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Just fanciful overreach on my part. :) I liked the idea of drawing a mystical connection to spelljamming in Kara-Tur, so it better fit the setting, and found it ready-made for it. The Celestial Empire might be the only pantheon to claim control over space, so I wondered how it would look in practice, and proposed extending the Spirit World to Realmspace. But the extent of that I'll leave open.

On that line of thought, I'd probably say the Jade Throne and the Celestial Palace could be in low geostationary orbit over Shou Lung but in the Spirit World. There, but not there, but definitely an up-in-the-sky heavenly realm like everyone pictures.

I do like the idea of spelljammers being used, at least by mortals, to visit the Celestial Heavens. Imagine one of those things, a dragonship, rising up from Chunming, flying through the sky and the stars, slipping into the Spirit World, and docking at the Celestial Palace for an audience with an Immortal or the Celestial Emperor himself. That's pretty high-level stuff, but lesser spelljamming adventurers might be ordered to carry out tasks for the Bureaucracy. It gives a good reason for the Shou space program, both to serve Heaven and to explore it (as suggested in Spelljammer material).

And perhaps a dragonship takes the form an actual oriental dragon, literally the spirit of the vessel, in the Spirit World.

The Wanese are probably doing something similar.

In myth, the Nine Immortals would appear to have been contemporaneous and simultaneously all emperors, but The Grand History of the Realms presents a more mundane history in which they're mortal emperors at different times, who later ascended. For example, Chan Cheng. As dragons, they usually manifest as oriental dragons.




Yeah, I do like the concept, the art to it is just nailing things down. I could see a geostationary orbit Celestial Palace that's actually "out of Phase" with the rest of Faerun.

In fact, one of the things I'd been discussing with Abeir could fit into this as well. I was going to have it that during the spellplague in Abeir some of the gods transferred over are more visceral. One aspect to this that I was presenting was this concept that while everyone sees the sun (even Abeirans), depending on your religious belief you will see a different deity interacting with the sun. So, for instance, the Mazticans see Tezca in the sky, but the Azuposi see the spirit known as Sun Father. The Metahel see a deity I based on Frey that I named "Fraeyollo" (I made up a whole Norse like pantheon for them, using slightly altered names, different history, etc...). The Mulhorandi see Ra (and are surprised to see him alive again... I did this due to the SCAG having Ra back), with Horus riding beside him. The red wizards of the United Tharchs see Lathander, but some even see Horus-Re looking vengeful at the same time. Some individuals have come to accept all of these religions, in which case they actually saw multiple deities in the sky.

Anyway, what if something like this also exists in Kara-Tur, and it helps FUEL belief in the Celestial Emperor. If you believe, then when you look into the Sky, you can see Heaven. Outsiders that look up are confused, because they cannot see what the people of Kara-Tur see. Similarly, maybe outsiders who don't believe cannot see the Moon Women, the Rice Spirits, the Jade Ladies, the Ladies of Compassion, the Lords of Karma, the Spirit Warriors, etc... without some kind of magical aid. To an outsider, they see some commoner interacting with a spirit, and its like they're interacting with something invisible.... yet see invisibility still doesn't reveal them (true seeing would). Maybe make some "spirit interaction" spell that's low level (1st level maybe... maybe even a cantrip), but that exists over all of Kara-Tur kind of like a giant mythal that casts this spell on anyone who believes.

Not sure if its a good idea game wise, but it sounds interesting. It could be interesting as well, if this were in place if something disrupted this effect and the people no longer saw the spirits, and just how that might affect them.


Oh, and thank you for the GHotR reference. So, the Nine Immortals came to be emperor at different times. From a "chicken/egg" perspective that can be important.

Oh, also along these lines, in reading some of the above, I saw the "Lords of Karma" and the "Spirit Warriors" who carry the slain off to the underworld. Apparently if you're judged well, you can be carried to the heavens. Maybe this is viewed as you riding a dragon spirit to the heavens, and the people of Kara-Tur may actually see "grandpa" riding a dragon to go to heaven. Maybe this is why the emperor, when he designed spelljammers decided to make them look like dragons... and maybe as you describe... just maybe all the dragonships are infused with a spirit dragon that can be released to come to the aid of the crew while in realmspace (but it goes dormant outside of realmspace).

And that leads to another question.... if there is an actual heaven to correspond to Heaven , should there be an underworld in the underdark to correspond to the Underworld ? Might the underdark of Kara-Tur be filled with spirit beings (nature spirits <including elementals and dragons>, demons, the dead, etc...). I would note that if you do this, I would actually have Kara-Tur filled with a lot more dragon spirits, but that they also aren't nearly as strong as a traditional dragon (though some are). In essence have something on the power level of faerie dragons and pseudodragons that might be nature guardians over a collection of lightly timbered hills with a spring, or some larger dragon with wood-like scales protecting a forest, etc... instead of pixie like beings.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  20:38:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haven't had time to read-through the last few posts, unfortunately, but just some observations -

I like the idea that there were two Chunmings, but we should have a little history that would bring some cohesion to everything, using the lore to fix the lore. Suppose 'Chunming' was a great hero from Shou's past? There could have been two cities with that name (there is at least one Faerūnian city that got renamed since 1st edition, because it had a duplicate).- heck, RW had dozens of 'Alexandrias'. But that 'hero' came from the south, and when Tu'Lung split from Shou-Lung, the emperor had the city renamed to Cham Fau (as someone else suggested above), rather than continue to honor a 'hero' from the 'traitorous south'. In fact, at that time, it may have been the ONLY Chunming, and just out of spite, the new Tu'Lung emperor renamed another city Chunming within his own territory (that might be simplest in-setting reasoning). Especially if the original 'Chun Ming' was an ancestor of the new southern dynasty.

As for why most Shou don't know about the Dragonships - think modern China. or maybe modern China of 40 years ago (when I was still in school). Most villages didn't even have electricity or running water back then. They were so remote, sometimes they NEVER heard news about what was going on in the rest of the world. So it could just be that 'scholarly types' (and just about everyone in the administration) knows the truth, but 95-99% of the population - 'mere, uneducated peasants' - wouldn't know. We are talking about an ethnicity that is even less 'in the loop' than folks in medieval Europe were. Outside areas where these ships dock, no-one talks about it (by imperial decree). If someone does slip-up, people would just think that person was making up crazy stories, and 'spies' would make sure that's exactly what people would think they were - 'the ravings of a lunatic'.

And it says right there in canon that the Official Histories have been changed several times, to respin things in such a way as to cast the best light on the agenda of the current government. Tu'Lung could be doing that as well (after all, they are just a 'knock-off' of the older empire). There is our reasoning right there for why Chunming may have been changed from Cham Fau, or even why another city (in the south) got renamed that. That would have been something Shou would have definitely modified in THEIR version of 'The Histories'.

And of of course, the BIGGEST thing the histories seem to have left out is that the FIRST Empire of Shou Lung (there have been three, IIRC) was actually Anok Imaskar... and an Imaskari 'survivor state'. Seems like they obliterated that completely.

I also like to play with the idea of those Krakentua actually being an experiment by the Illithids (or Imaskari using illithids), maybe even as a way to capture/control/ round-up all those Gargantua (Kaiju) and stick them on that island. I picture them having an illithid inject its egg into a titan... with disastrous results. Or it could even be the Imaskari merely meddling with the Far Realms and primordials (although as powerful as they are, I don't think even the Krakentua are in the same power-league as the Primordials... maybe their offspring?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jun 2017 20:50:46
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