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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 21:48:12
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| $49.99 for the Player's Handbook??! This had better be a book that I can nearly play any character-style from any edition. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 21:51:36
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| Is it going to be a single-book rules set like Pathfinder, or are we going to have to shell-out $100 for two books? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 22:30:21
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| The core book was the exact price I was expecting. The starter box is really cheap. It makes me wonder how much will be covered in it and how many classes will be available. So, it looks like 150 for the DMG, PHB and MM. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 23:39:48
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| To be fair core 3.5 books cost about 95 bucks back in 2002, so thinking of inflation, and how much more it may cost to pay folks to do the job; I can see why the price would go up , after 14 years. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 00:32:29
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Perhaps...never-the-less their concern is valid...let's take a look shall we...
Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
For 3.5 we were given 960-pages for roughly $90, so roughly $0.09/page.
Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook 4th Edition is 340-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual 4th Edition is a 288-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide 4th Edition is a 224-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
For 4e we were given 852-pages for roughly $104.85, so roughly $0.12/page.
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Player's Handbook (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Monster Manual (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
For the "Premium" 3.5 re-release we were given 960-pages for rouhgly $149.85, so roughly $0.16/page.
In contrast:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is a 576-page full-color hardcover $49.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary is a 328-page full-color hardcover $39.99
Pathfinder RPG GameMastery Guide is a320-page full-color hardcover $39.99
For Pathfinder we were given 1,224-pages for roughly $129.97, so roughly $0.11/page
Can anyone else see the problem, and hence the cause for concern, and thus the reason many are skeptical? |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 00:38:58
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| Well, I made this comment awhile back...I'm not buying anything from WotC without first thoroughly reading through the material first. So I will be spending a good deal of time in book/hobby stores. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 00:44:14
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Well in the end it appears how many pages and very much how much color (as that costs more then print) is in the release.
Oh certainly what it says matters as well if $0.01 a page and no one wants to use it, that is over priced as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 01:08:39
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| The title of the following rant may not apply to this situation (it was written for 3rd Edition), but it does shed some light on how RGPs are (or were) priced out: Rant: Why RPGs Are Not Too Expensive. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:03:55
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| Hope we get a 5E Realms Campaign book this summer then too! :) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:19:56
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A $50 book that you are going to use for hours upon hours upon hours is not someone ripping you off.
In an age when someone will pay $1 for a soda (say five sodas per week...you are at $20+ a month, $240/year for sugar water!)...then you have your books right there! I mean, for $240, you can buy lots of books!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:37:24
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I think for many, myself included, it isn't simply an issue of it "being" expensive...it's purely about VALUE...after all with $240 there are a lot of things that could be bought - a nice dinner with the wife, cigars, etc. - so why would I give my hard earned money to a company when the product they are providing isn't even the equal of one of their chief competitors (who has apparently figured out a way to keep their costs down)...
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:43:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Hope we get a 5E Realms Campaign book this summer then too! :)
FR is core this edition, so say goodbye to kord, and hello to bane. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:49:43
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I would say you do so because you don't like Pathfinder (that being me). It is an ok system...but it isn't that much different from 3.x to me, which was a failure for my desires in a gaming system. Good game, as it is I actually like it well...however they changed things that I disagree with GREATLY.
So, with 5e, my hope is it will go back to a style of gaming I prefer (1e, 2e) with some mechanics I thought were solid from 3.x/Pathfinder (skill system). I don't like the limitations of the class levels (converting a level 10 fighter Lord, level 12 wizard from 1e/2e to 3.x; you lose ability to a total of level 5 fighter, level 12 wizard for a 17th level character).
I had hoped that 5e would find a way to break out of this limitation...which I think has been the downfall of versions since 2e in my opinion. Being stunted from learning how to use your sword better simply because you decided to learn spells was a flawed mechanic. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
$49.99 for the Player's Handbook??! This had better be a book that I can nearly play any character-style from any edition.
AGREED! But you know it won't be. WotC shoved 3rd, then 3.5, then 3th down our throats and made us shell out more money every time.
Though after playtesting D&DNext, it might not be too bad. I saw easy conversions backwards and forwards. |
Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 03:33:49
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FR isn't core, there is no core, rather examples from various setting, not exclusively FR.
And its hard to assess value when there was no other details like page count or anything else. All we have is a date and price, no context.
Oh and Barnes and Noble have already discounted the book down to 37 dollars. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 05:29:57
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Quoting myself...
In WotC's defense... Prices do go up. My original copies of a lot of Dragonlance and FR novels were priced at $2.95 or $3.95. Now you can't always get an ebook that cheaply. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 12:30:57
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You do not need anything other then the Core Rules with the Paizo system. I've used t, and never bought either of the other books you mentioned, so that was a very skewed assessment.
To be fair, I suppose a new DM may need the bestiary Guide - I just use my old 3e MM's for that. However, I don't even know what the 'Game Mastery Guide' is - never bought it, never will. Don't know why you lumped it in there as a 'must have'. There is no DMG in the PF system - you can get by with just the Core rulebook.
By having a high price-point, they are automatically assuming a niche item, which it is destined to be at that price. Someone doesn't understand basic economics. Its far better to make 1¢ off of a million people then 10¢ off of 10,000 people. 
Charge less, make less per unit, and more people buy it; then make more by selling the accessories to your customers. They are shooting themselves in the foot - what parent is going to go out and spend $50 on game book? Thus, only adults will buy it, and in a few years when all those adults are dead, you have no more customers left. A $29.99 release may have made very little money, but at least everyone would have run out and bought it without even thinking about it. They've already set their potential fanbase to about %20 of what it could have been, which means there won't be enough people interested to buy future products. Big corporations have ZERO brains - you don't catch any fish unless you bait the hook.
Not baiting your hook may save you money on bait... but you go home hungry.
EDIT: And BTW, thats precisely what they did with the 3e release - back then, before WotC was owned by Hasbro, someone there knew the proper way to introduce a new product line. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2014 13:58:53 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 12:55:16
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| I'll reserve judgement until we know more (or until the book hits the shelves) but I don't see myself paying $50 for a core rule book unless A) it's a combo DMG/PHB and B) it's very VERY good stuff. I'm not sure the single core book model is the best way to go, btw. Most kids will only need a PHB and it needs to be affordable. The DMG is needed by fewer (note, I'm not saying it wouldn't sell just as well) and could be bought later (when more money is available to consumers who want/need it). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 12:58:53
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| The $50 dollar price point content dependent is a reasonable price for a modern gaming product. A single D&D book is still cost competitive with the newest video game. Parents don't seem to have any problem coughing up $60 dollars for the newest call of duty game. Not to mention the $400-500 dollar upfront cost for the system itself. If there kid wants to play D&D, I doubt the fifty dollar price point will prove to be unreasonable. Plus the under $20 dollar start set is incredibly cheap again content dependent. I am guessing that the start set will only have the core 4 classes and level 1-3 which is kind of meh but who knows. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 13:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
Perhaps...never-the-less their concern is valid...let's take a look shall we...
Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
For 3.5 we were given 960-pages for roughly $90, so roughly $0.09/page.
Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook 4th Edition is 340-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual 4th Edition is a 288-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide 4th Edition is a 224-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
For 4e we were given 852-pages for roughly $104.85, so roughly $0.12/page.
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Player's Handbook (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Monster Manual (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
For the "Premium" 3.5 re-release we were given 960-pages for rouhgly $149.85, so roughly $0.16/page.
In contrast:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is a 576-page full-color hardcover $49.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary is a 328-page full-color hardcover $39.99
Pathfinder RPG GameMastery Guide is a320-page full-color hardcover $39.99
For Pathfinder we were given 1,224-pages for roughly $129.97, so roughly $0.11/page
Can anyone else see the problem, and hence the cause for concern, and thus the reason many are skeptical?
The only correction I'd make here is that you do not need Pathfinder's Gamemastery Guide to play the game (or for anything, actually, it's a non-specific book on what RPGs are and how you can run them). So, I'd change Pathfinder's to this:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is a 576-page full-color hardcover $49.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary is a 328-page full-color hardcover $39.99
904 pages for $89.98 or roughly $0.0995 per page.
And, of course, if you want to go the digital route:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is a 576-page full-color hardcover $9.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary is a 328-page full-color hardcover $9.99
904 pages for $19.98 or roughly $0.0221 per page.
Also, there's the fact that you can look up both those books, plus the Gamemastery Guide, Bestiaries 2 & 3, and eight other books for free on the Pathfinder PRD
13 books (about 4,200 pages) for $0.00 or roughly $0.00 per page. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 03 Mar 2014 13:13:31 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 14:05:05
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They are operating under the old paradigm that they still are the 800 lb gorilla in the room, and they are not, so they are doomed to fail. They are selling this product as if they were a brand-new company with a bright, shiny new product... rather then an old company with a bad rep who is trying to make a come-back. Just the fact that they think they can compete the same way they used makes me realize just how little they understand their current situation.
They Absolutely NEED to price this first book in such a way as to overcome people's current aversion to D&D. It needs to be set at a price-point folks consider 'a no-brainer'. In other words, "not care whether its good or bad at that price". A $50 price will have many folks hanging back, or just deciding not to bother at all (after all, they already invested in Pathfinder... why even bother buying yet-another system from WotC?) They are NOT in a position anymore to compete with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) 'on an even-keel'. They have too much negativity working against them. They NEED to see that, and price accordingly, at least for the first 6 months (thats what 3e did, and it was a whopping success). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2014 14:08:59 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 14:40:12
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And the fact that they are STILL not offering the core rule books in PDF format for previous editions (although they are offering the expanded rule books).
Edit: And I just noticed that, not only is Paizo #1 for two year straight now, but last summer WotC dropped to #3 after Fantasy Flight Games took over the #2 spot with the Star Wars license.
ICV Top 5 RPGs - Summer 2013 |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 03 Mar 2014 14:51:23 |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 15:18:30
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I share Markustay's thoughts. I'd like to give 5e a try, but at $50 for the PHB (and I'm assuming that's US dollars, which means more expensive for me in Canada)...that's too much for something I'd like to try. I'm loving the heck out of Pathfinder and see little need to go back to D&D, especially given how unimpressed I am with 5e's rules (based on the playtest materials).
If it was under $40 CDN for me (or a $20 US PDF), I'd happily give it a go. At the $50+ price and no PDF option? Nope. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
Edited by - ZeshinX on 03 Mar 2014 15:21:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 16:03:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The $50 dollar price point content dependent is a reasonable price for a modern gaming product. A single D&D book is still cost competitive with the newest video game. Parents don't seem to have any problem coughing up $60 dollars for the newest call of duty game. Not to mention the $400-500 dollar upfront cost for the system itself. If there kid wants to play D&D, I doubt the fifty dollar price point will prove to be unreasonable. Plus the under $20 dollar start set is incredibly cheap again content dependent. I am guessing that the start set will only have the core 4 classes and level 1-3 which is kind of meh but who knows.
I don't like paying $50 for a game product, but I'm sure I'm not alone in having paid more, a couple of times... I've got the Ptolus book, for example, and I also purchased the The Tome of Horrors Complete: Unlimited Edition. And I recently sold a stack of 6 books for the Serenity RPG for $250.
Considering that a lot of other recent RPG books have been in the $35-$45 price range, I don't think that $50 is excessive, or necessarily doomed to failure.
WotC may have fallen to 3rd place, but the D&D brand name still commands a lot of respect, and there are going to be many gamers rushing out to buy that book as soon as it drops. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:21:33
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| Look for sales, its already on sale at B&N and its only a matter of time before it goes on sale in Canada. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:32:56
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| Btw I assume Pathfinder is number 1, but is number 2, Numeria? World of Darkness? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Look for sales, its already on sale at B&N and its only a matter of time before it goes on sale in Canada.
Indeed. If I was inclined to buy the 5E rules, I'd prolly buy them online somewhere for less than the cover price.
Me not buying the 5E rules has nothing to do with an issue with the rules (as with 4E) or with WotC (as with most of the stuff they published during the 4E era) -- it's because I'm into Pathfinder now and I don't belong to an active gaming group. If I was in an active gaming group and we were going 5E, I'd be doing serious price-shopping and talking to my local game stores to see how close they could get to online prices. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:40:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Btw I assume Pathfinder is number 1, but is number 2, Numeria? World of Darkness?
Star Wars, according to Ashe's link. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 21:42:52
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The D&D Next PHB preorder is currently going for $49.95 $37.96 (24% off from list price) and B&N.
Comparable to the top RPGs of the last quarter:
- Pathfinder Core Rulebook at $32.57 (34% off), which has been out for a few years.
- Star Wars: Edge of the Empire at $44.00 (26% off, list price at $59.95!).
- 4E PHB is $22.11 (36% off from list).
The price is nothing extravagant at all. It's cheaper than a new Triple-A video game, which premier at around $60. Of course, video game prices drop quickly after release as well. I expect 5E books to be competitive with other games on the market and will normalize at the ~30% discount of 4E and PF.
Price isn't everything as we can see from Star Wars. Or via Amazon, Monte Cook's Numenera is going for $39.25 (35% off list of $59.99). For completeness of listing the nearest 'competitors' there's also 13th Age at $32.51 (28% off from list of $44.95). As we see everyone is more or less in the same range.
Put out a game people want and people will buy it if the price is reasonable. I can throw down $50 for a video game that will last 15-30 hours if we're lucky (maybe 50ish if it's a CRPG, maybe with some replay if it's a good CRPG) or I can do the same for a PHB and have a game I can play for decades.
Then again, D&D should be putting out CRPGs, and hack-and-slash third person adventure games and MOBAs and more iOS/Android games, etc.
The consideration that is different from the 3E launch and even the 4E launch is that PFRPG is free online via the SRD (and the Paizo site and Pathfinder Wiki fills in a lot of the setting and visual details) or ~$10 for the core PDF. Paizo staff have stated on their forums the price is comparably low as it's the gateway to their game (a loss leader that funnels future sales of other products).
Of note, 13th Age also has an SRD. The OSR games are also free online for the no-frills, no-art versions. Though lately at least one has released a full (B&W) art version, Sword & Wizardry Complete.
Also of note, Fate Core (and Fate Accelerated), which is the #5 best selling RPG of Summer 2013 according to ICv2, also has an OGL/SRD and the full (B&W) art version is available for Pay What You Want (PWYW). The customer sets the price, and the price can be free if so desired.
The cost of the hardback could be competitive, but another component of the market is now fully online/digital. WotC will have to maintain a viable online/digital presence (DnDClassics via DriveThru/RPGNow/OBS was a good start).
Perhaps they can offer a DDI sign-on or subscription renewal bonus a few months after the launch of 5E. All subscribers get the PHB PDF for free, yours to keep even if you cancel the subscription. For the price of a month's subscription, the can break even on the PDF while getting folks hooked on DDI (provided the content and tools are there).
Really, Wizards is a big enough company that after a few solid months of sales, they could afford to offer downloads of the PHB (full PDF or color eBook formats) at their site for free or at least "App" pricing ($0.99, $1.99, $2.99, anything under the cost of one of those branded coffees). They should also make the Core Rules an iOS/Android app, have it come with a simple but functional core-only editable character creator, just something that crunches basic stats and a selection of portraits. Sell them the deluxe character generator program.
I could see the downloads go up into the millions. How many million? Who knows, 2 million (easy), 5 million (quite possible). Even 10 mil? 20 mil worldwide? Consider even a 1% conversion rate of new people who buy other products (not just the RPG, but posters, T-Shirts, toys, etc.), something like 20,000, 50K, 100K, or 200K new paying customers.
Ultimately, there will be more new players than people who buy products and that's what counts, large numbers playing and talking about the game (and IP) generates buzz and chatter. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 03 Mar 2014 21:44:32 |
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5th edition release date leaked
