| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 21:30:34
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/132589-Dungeons-Dragons-Next-Release-Date-New-Product-Leak
apprently it will be coming around june or july |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 18:55:25
Now the D&D Starter Set is also gone 
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/noresults?ean=9780786965595&isbn=9780786965595&product.urlkeywords=d+d+starter+set+wizards+rpg+team&workid=1118613016 |
| Markustay |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 18:09:29
Perhaps someone decided I/we was right, and that they need an 'introductory price' to bring the people back in droves?
I hope so - they need to price the first D&Dnext book in such a way that people WON'T CARE if its good or not. Price it too high (average price for other company's products, or more), and people won't even bother buying it, simply becuase they already have something they are happy with, and they left D&D because they were unhappy in the first place. At that oint, it won't matter if 5e is good or not, because no-one will know it. It would have to be a whole 'nother level of awesome to overcome that (in other words, the people who DO take a look at it starting shouting from the rooftops how good it is).
So its either pure GOLD, or they price it in such a way people will just buy it to see what the deal is (and if it IS good, they then buy all future products). Thats a big risk they are taking if they are banking on it being the amazing edition they are hoping it will be. Even if they do a 'first 30 days gets $10 off' deal (or a pre-purchase thing), it will give it the shot-in-the-arm it so desperately needs.
The weird thing is, at this point in time, I definitely see myself running D&Dnext... but 5eFR? Not so much.....
|
| Plaguescarred |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 13:39:00
FWIW the PHB page is no longer available at B&N, only the D&D Starter set is.
Perhaps price and/or release date was inacurate ?
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/noresults?ean=9780786965601&isbn=9780786965601&product.urlkeywords=d+d+playerss+handbook+wizards+rpg+team&workid=1118612271 |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 12:45:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The D&D Next PHB preorder is currently going for $49.95 $37.96 (24% off from list price) and B&N.
Comparable to the top RPGs of the last quarter:
- Pathfinder Core Rulebook at $32.57 (34% off), which has been out for a few years.
- Star Wars: Edge of the Empire at $44.00 (26% off, list price at $59.95!).
- 4E PHB is $22.11 (36% off from list).
The biggest selling point to the Pathfinder Core Rulebook (in my mind, anyway) is that, for the price of a Player's Handbook, you're getting the DMG thrown into the book for free. |
| BlackAce |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 11:29:29
I'm with Markus on this one. I get the distinct impression Wizards still haven't grasped that many regard them as the RPG equivalent of EA and that they'll have to do some serious price point grovelling to win back a market that at best is indifferent and at worst bitter. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 05:54:44
My comment above was indicative of 3E forward. Apologies for assuming everyone new that's where I was coming from.
It's my understanding, based on commentary from Ryan Dancey and Sean K Reynolds, that 3E Realms sourcebooks were always sold at a premium over their non-Realms counterparts. Likewise with the "starter" books over their core rulebook counterparts.
However, it's possible that the FRCS (for 3E) may have been an exception, also the FRCG for 4E.
When I get a chance I'll compare the prices.
EDIT:
OK, the list price for the 3E FRCS was $39.95. Likewise the 4E FRCG.
The core rulebooks list price for 3E was $19.95 and 4E at $34.95.
So while 4E's core rulebook prices went up from the 3E prices, the price for the FR hardback for each edition stayed the same.
It'd sure be nice if WotC's list price for the 5E Realms campaign guide was the same as that for the 5E core rulebooks, but I'm not betting on it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 04:50:43
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
For me the one good thing about the PHB price point is it gives me an idea of what the cost of the 5E Forgotten Realms Hardcover will be.
Realms books are traditionally sold at a premium, so I expect a book in the ~$60-$70 price range.
As someone who plays D&D with 3.5 rules, the value of 5E to me is not in the new rules set, but in the content of new Realms products, because that is what I can port into any Realms campaign I run in the future.
Unless I am mistaken, the various campaign books/boxed sets have been about the same price as the core books, not more. |
| Jeremy Grenemyer |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 00:12:50
For me the one good thing about the PHB price point is it gives me an idea of what the cost of the 5E Forgotten Realms Hardcover will be.
Realms books are traditionally sold at a premium, so I expect a book in the ~$60-$70 price range.
As someone who plays D&D with 3.5 rules, the value of 5E to me is not in the new rules set, but in the content of new Realms products, because that is what I can port into any Realms campaign I run in the future. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 23:09:19
Well it's a good thing I am well paid because if I wasn't, then I most likely wouldn't buy it.
OTOH, I am worried about the starter set because the last one was absolute shite. The Pathfinder starter is how you are supposed to do it. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 21:54:55
DW: You're assuming WotC will be that smart. In the past they haven't been. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see them go that route...but I wont be holding my breath. I mean, they haven't even been able to maintain a solid website (numerous problems over the years). |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 21:42:52
The D&D Next PHB preorder is currently going for $49.95 $37.96 (24% off from list price) and B&N.
Comparable to the top RPGs of the last quarter:
- Pathfinder Core Rulebook at $32.57 (34% off), which has been out for a few years.
- Star Wars: Edge of the Empire at $44.00 (26% off, list price at $59.95!).
- 4E PHB is $22.11 (36% off from list).
The price is nothing extravagant at all. It's cheaper than a new Triple-A video game, which premier at around $60. Of course, video game prices drop quickly after release as well. I expect 5E books to be competitive with other games on the market and will normalize at the ~30% discount of 4E and PF.
Price isn't everything as we can see from Star Wars. Or via Amazon, Monte Cook's Numenera is going for $39.25 (35% off list of $59.99). For completeness of listing the nearest 'competitors' there's also 13th Age at $32.51 (28% off from list of $44.95). As we see everyone is more or less in the same range.
Put out a game people want and people will buy it if the price is reasonable. I can throw down $50 for a video game that will last 15-30 hours if we're lucky (maybe 50ish if it's a CRPG, maybe with some replay if it's a good CRPG) or I can do the same for a PHB and have a game I can play for decades.
Then again, D&D should be putting out CRPGs, and hack-and-slash third person adventure games and MOBAs and more iOS/Android games, etc.
The consideration that is different from the 3E launch and even the 4E launch is that PFRPG is free online via the SRD (and the Paizo site and Pathfinder Wiki fills in a lot of the setting and visual details) or ~$10 for the core PDF. Paizo staff have stated on their forums the price is comparably low as it's the gateway to their game (a loss leader that funnels future sales of other products).
Of note, 13th Age also has an SRD. The OSR games are also free online for the no-frills, no-art versions. Though lately at least one has released a full (B&W) art version, Sword & Wizardry Complete.
Also of note, Fate Core (and Fate Accelerated), which is the #5 best selling RPG of Summer 2013 according to ICv2, also has an OGL/SRD and the full (B&W) art version is available for Pay What You Want (PWYW). The customer sets the price, and the price can be free if so desired.
The cost of the hardback could be competitive, but another component of the market is now fully online/digital. WotC will have to maintain a viable online/digital presence (DnDClassics via DriveThru/RPGNow/OBS was a good start).
Perhaps they can offer a DDI sign-on or subscription renewal bonus a few months after the launch of 5E. All subscribers get the PHB PDF for free, yours to keep even if you cancel the subscription. For the price of a month's subscription, the can break even on the PDF while getting folks hooked on DDI (provided the content and tools are there).
Really, Wizards is a big enough company that after a few solid months of sales, they could afford to offer downloads of the PHB (full PDF or color eBook formats) at their site for free or at least "App" pricing ($0.99, $1.99, $2.99, anything under the cost of one of those branded coffees). They should also make the Core Rules an iOS/Android app, have it come with a simple but functional core-only editable character creator, just something that crunches basic stats and a selection of portraits. Sell them the deluxe character generator program.
I could see the downloads go up into the millions. How many million? Who knows, 2 million (easy), 5 million (quite possible). Even 10 mil? 20 mil worldwide? Consider even a 1% conversion rate of new people who buy other products (not just the RPG, but posters, T-Shirts, toys, etc.), something like 20,000, 50K, 100K, or 200K new paying customers.
Ultimately, there will be more new players than people who buy products and that's what counts, large numbers playing and talking about the game (and IP) generates buzz and chatter. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:40:26
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Btw I assume Pathfinder is number 1, but is number 2, Numeria? World of Darkness?
Star Wars, according to Ashe's link. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:39:19
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Look for sales, its already on sale at B&N and its only a matter of time before it goes on sale in Canada.
Indeed. If I was inclined to buy the 5E rules, I'd prolly buy them online somewhere for less than the cover price.
Me not buying the 5E rules has nothing to do with an issue with the rules (as with 4E) or with WotC (as with most of the stuff they published during the 4E era) -- it's because I'm into Pathfinder now and I don't belong to an active gaming group. If I was in an active gaming group and we were going 5E, I'd be doing serious price-shopping and talking to my local game stores to see how close they could get to online prices. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:32:56
Btw I assume Pathfinder is number 1, but is number 2, Numeria? World of Darkness? |
| Gyor |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 17:21:33
Look for sales, its already on sale at B&N and its only a matter of time before it goes on sale in Canada. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 16:03:40
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The $50 dollar price point content dependent is a reasonable price for a modern gaming product. A single D&D book is still cost competitive with the newest video game. Parents don't seem to have any problem coughing up $60 dollars for the newest call of duty game. Not to mention the $400-500 dollar upfront cost for the system itself. If there kid wants to play D&D, I doubt the fifty dollar price point will prove to be unreasonable. Plus the under $20 dollar start set is incredibly cheap again content dependent. I am guessing that the start set will only have the core 4 classes and level 1-3 which is kind of meh but who knows.
I don't like paying $50 for a game product, but I'm sure I'm not alone in having paid more, a couple of times... I've got the Ptolus book, for example, and I also purchased the The Tome of Horrors Complete: Unlimited Edition. And I recently sold a stack of 6 books for the Serenity RPG for $250.
Considering that a lot of other recent RPG books have been in the $35-$45 price range, I don't think that $50 is excessive, or necessarily doomed to failure.
WotC may have fallen to 3rd place, but the D&D brand name still commands a lot of respect, and there are going to be many gamers rushing out to buy that book as soon as it drops. |
| ZeshinX |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 15:18:30
I share Markustay's thoughts. I'd like to give 5e a try, but at $50 for the PHB (and I'm assuming that's US dollars, which means more expensive for me in Canada)...that's too much for something I'd like to try. I'm loving the heck out of Pathfinder and see little need to go back to D&D, especially given how unimpressed I am with 5e's rules (based on the playtest materials).
If it was under $40 CDN for me (or a $20 US PDF), I'd happily give it a go. At the $50+ price and no PDF option? Nope. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 14:40:12
And the fact that they are STILL not offering the core rule books in PDF format for previous editions (although they are offering the expanded rule books).
Edit: And I just noticed that, not only is Paizo #1 for two year straight now, but last summer WotC dropped to #3 after Fantasy Flight Games took over the #2 spot with the Star Wars license.
ICV Top 5 RPGs - Summer 2013 |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 14:05:05
They are operating under the old paradigm that they still are the 800 lb gorilla in the room, and they are not, so they are doomed to fail. They are selling this product as if they were a brand-new company with a bright, shiny new product... rather then an old company with a bad rep who is trying to make a come-back. Just the fact that they think they can compete the same way they used makes me realize just how little they understand their current situation.
They Absolutely NEED to price this first book in such a way as to overcome people's current aversion to D&D. It needs to be set at a price-point folks consider 'a no-brainer'. In other words, "not care whether its good or bad at that price". A $50 price will have many folks hanging back, or just deciding not to bother at all (after all, they already invested in Pathfinder... why even bother buying yet-another system from WotC?) They are NOT in a position anymore to compete with Paizo (or anyone else for that matter) 'on an even-keel'. They have too much negativity working against them. They NEED to see that, and price accordingly, at least for the first 6 months (thats what 3e did, and it was a whopping success). |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 13:11:51
quote:
Originally posted by ksu_bond
Perhaps...never-the-less their concern is valid...let's take a look shall we...
Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
Monster Manual: Core Rulebook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook v3.5 is 320-page full-color hardcover for $29.95
For 3.5 we were given 960-pages for roughly $90, so roughly $0.09/page.
Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook 4th Edition is 340-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual 4th Edition is a 288-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide 4th Edition is a 224-page full-color hardcover for $34.95
For 4e we were given 852-pages for roughly $104.85, so roughly $0.12/page.
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Player's Handbook (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Monster Manual (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
Premium Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide (2012) is a 320-page full-color hardcover for $49.95
For the "Premium" 3.5 re-release we were given 960-pages for rouhgly $149.85, so roughly $0.16/page.
In contrast:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is a 576-page full-color hardcover $49.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary is a 328-page full-color hardcover $39.99
Pathfinder RPG GameMastery Guide is a320-page full-color hardcover $39.99
For Pathfinder we were given 1,224-pages for roughly $129.97, so roughly $0.11/page
Can anyone else see the problem, and hence the cause for concern, and thus the reason many are skeptical?
The only correction I'd make here is that you do not need Pathfinder's Gamemastery Guide to play the game (or for anything, actually, it's a non-specific book on what RPGs are and how you can run them). So, I'd change Pathfinder's to this:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is a 576-page full-color hardcover $49.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary is a 328-page full-color hardcover $39.99
904 pages for $89.98 or roughly $0.0995 per page.
And, of course, if you want to go the digital route:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is a 576-page full-color hardcover $9.99
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary is a 328-page full-color hardcover $9.99
904 pages for $19.98 or roughly $0.0221 per page.
Also, there's the fact that you can look up both those books, plus the Gamemastery Guide, Bestiaries 2 & 3, and eight other books for free on the Pathfinder PRD
13 books (about 4,200 pages) for $0.00 or roughly $0.00 per page. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 13:00:58
I often find big businesses are the worst at business.
My company actively refuses to sell things to customers and currently we have lost 30% of our profits and customers in one year. No one at the top seems to have any idea of what is happening however and carry on stupidly refusing custom as normal for them.
|
| Tarlyn |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 12:58:53
The $50 dollar price point content dependent is a reasonable price for a modern gaming product. A single D&D book is still cost competitive with the newest video game. Parents don't seem to have any problem coughing up $60 dollars for the newest call of duty game. Not to mention the $400-500 dollar upfront cost for the system itself. If there kid wants to play D&D, I doubt the fifty dollar price point will prove to be unreasonable. Plus the under $20 dollar start set is incredibly cheap again content dependent. I am guessing that the start set will only have the core 4 classes and level 1-3 which is kind of meh but who knows. |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 12:55:16
I'll reserve judgement until we know more (or until the book hits the shelves) but I don't see myself paying $50 for a core rule book unless A) it's a combo DMG/PHB and B) it's very VERY good stuff. I'm not sure the single core book model is the best way to go, btw. Most kids will only need a PHB and it needs to be affordable. The DMG is needed by fewer (note, I'm not saying it wouldn't sell just as well) and could be bought later (when more money is available to consumers who want/need it). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 12:30:57
You do not need anything other then the Core Rules with the Paizo system. I've used t, and never bought either of the other books you mentioned, so that was a very skewed assessment.
To be fair, I suppose a new DM may need the bestiary Guide - I just use my old 3e MM's for that. However, I don't even know what the 'Game Mastery Guide' is - never bought it, never will. Don't know why you lumped it in there as a 'must have'. There is no DMG in the PF system - you can get by with just the Core rulebook.
By having a high price-point, they are automatically assuming a niche item, which it is destined to be at that price. Someone doesn't understand basic economics. Its far better to make 1¢ off of a million people then 10¢ off of 10,000 people. 
Charge less, make less per unit, and more people buy it; then make more by selling the accessories to your customers. They are shooting themselves in the foot - what parent is going to go out and spend $50 on game book? Thus, only adults will buy it, and in a few years when all those adults are dead, you have no more customers left. A $29.99 release may have made very little money, but at least everyone would have run out and bought it without even thinking about it. They've already set their potential fanbase to about %20 of what it could have been, which means there won't be enough people interested to buy future products. Big corporations have ZERO brains - you don't catch any fish unless you bait the hook.
Not baiting your hook may save you money on bait... but you go home hungry.
EDIT: And BTW, thats precisely what they did with the 3e release - back then, before WotC was owned by Hasbro, someone there knew the proper way to introduce a new product line. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 05:29:57
Quoting myself...
In WotC's defense... Prices do go up. My original copies of a lot of Dragonlance and FR novels were priced at $2.95 or $3.95. Now you can't always get an ebook that cheaply. |
| Gyor |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 03:33:49
FR isn't core, there is no core, rather examples from various setting, not exclusively FR.
And its hard to assess value when there was no other details like page count or anything else. All we have is a date and price, no context.
Oh and Barnes and Noble have already discounted the book down to 37 dollars. |
| Joebing |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:52:16
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
$49.99 for the Player's Handbook??! This had better be a book that I can nearly play any character-style from any edition.
AGREED! But you know it won't be. WotC shoved 3rd, then 3.5, then 3th down our throats and made us shell out more money every time.
Though after playtesting D&DNext, it might not be too bad. I saw easy conversions backwards and forwards. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:49:43
I would say you do so because you don't like Pathfinder (that being me). It is an ok system...but it isn't that much different from 3.x to me, which was a failure for my desires in a gaming system. Good game, as it is I actually like it well...however they changed things that I disagree with GREATLY.
So, with 5e, my hope is it will go back to a style of gaming I prefer (1e, 2e) with some mechanics I thought were solid from 3.x/Pathfinder (skill system). I don't like the limitations of the class levels (converting a level 10 fighter Lord, level 12 wizard from 1e/2e to 3.x; you lose ability to a total of level 5 fighter, level 12 wizard for a 17th level character).
I had hoped that 5e would find a way to break out of this limitation...which I think has been the downfall of versions since 2e in my opinion. Being stunted from learning how to use your sword better simply because you decided to learn spells was a flawed mechanic. |
| silverwolfer |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:43:23
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Hope we get a 5E Realms Campaign book this summer then too! :)
FR is core this edition, so say goodbye to kord, and hello to bane. |
| ksu_bond |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 02:37:24
I think for many, myself included, it isn't simply an issue of it "being" expensive...it's purely about VALUE...after all with $240 there are a lot of things that could be bought - a nice dinner with the wife, cigars, etc. - so why would I give my hard earned money to a company when the product they are providing isn't even the equal of one of their chief competitors (who has apparently figured out a way to keep their costs down)...
|
|
|
