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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 20:33:12
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Hi fellow scribes. I'm happy to read you back !
I come back with a matter that a friend of mine talked me about :
"Recently, in the course of my games and of my second readings, I wondered how dark elves made not to decay due to the lack of population.
Indeed, a drow female has only 6 or 7 maximum children on average over so many centuries of life expectancy, but events driving to deaths are many: wars against nearby cities (Mithril hall, siege of Menzoberranzan, aso), wars between houses, wars between houses, settings of scores, murders for promotions or to protect ones situation, sacrifices, aso
Finally in brief, we could think that drow cities are quite dedicated to the fall due to a lack of population."
What do you think about it ?
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"Today is a good day to smile",
Fillow Big'n'Book Mahlemiut 'Lead-dog', Son of Garl, Wanderer of the Masked Leaf and Namer of Oghma.
- Fight in the arena and have fun ! : La brute.com
- Feel free to take part to these projects : Post-Spellplague bibliography ; 4E index project ; Taverns and inns of the Realms ; Dogs of the Realms ; Descriptions of places in the novels ; forums, RPG, FR Abbreviations and Acronyms
- Come and have a look at the already asked questions from the Forgotten Realms Trivia Challenge
I am a French FR fan, so please forgive my lapses in English language and do not hesitate to correct me. Thanks a lot. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 20:54:11
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Generally speaking, it seems that outright war has been historically less prevalent than the novels seem to make it out. Between the Silence of Lolth and the Baenre-led Invasion of the Mithral Hall the novels have made popular the appearance of the Drow as warlike and expansionist, which seems rather contrary to the reality of the situation, which has historically been the fairly microcosm-like nature of each Drow city, focusing almost entirely on its own internal ordered chaos and power plays. This is the danger of novels, for while they can convey the atmosphere and world of the Drow more clearly and evocatively than most sourcebooks they also tend to involve plots that include grand acts and extraordinary things. It would be dangerous to treat the warlike actions of the War of the Spider Queen and the Passage to Dawn series as the status quo, especially when they are in fact portrayed as being just the opposite.
As for the internal attrition...well...maybe commoners are more prolific and adoption fills the upper class attrition...or possible there is a secret Drow cloning factory. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 21:07:53
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It's the mushrooms. I'm telling you, they survive because of their vegetarian diet heavy and grains and bioluminescent/radioactive mushrooms.
Oh, and rothe' meat. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 22:11:43
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Don't forget the poisonous fish. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 22:12:28
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| But, in all seriousness, there is a potential problem in how many Drow get killed off due to internal disputes, power grabs, feud, etc. I seem to remember it being established that Drow are more prolific than other kinds of elves and one could argue that, plus power motivated adoption makes up the for the attrition, but given the semi-chaotic nature of Drow society and the lower scrutiny and expectation amongst the lower tiers of Drow society to appear as adhering to the laws I admit I am curious as to how the lower orders of Drow cities aren't wiped out by all the backstabbing and the like. Its an interesting consideration. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 31 Jan 2009 22:16:31 |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 23:04:59
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IMO, as precious and rare as children are among the drow (and all elves, for that matter), I suspect that they still breed at a replacement level (probably balanced out between upper and lower classes). Even if half of all drow die childless from infighting (which is a pretty high attrition rate, but maybe reasonable), and drow breed an average of 4 children in a lifetime (say), then a given drow mother still has 2 children who will grow up to create children of their own.
A population needs to go a LONG time breeding only very scarcely, or suffer near genocidal levels of decrease to really be in danger.
Plus, they live so long that there isn't all that much turn-over EXCEPT for the backstabbing and attrition. If you as a drow matron mother lose a few children, then you can always have more--you have centuries in which to do it. And we know that the noble houses tend to keep their high priestess daughters around for a very long time.
I think it makes more sense to think of the constant infighting and attrition as the reason that the drow aren't MORE prevalent. It keeps their numbers small and their society in check.
One also wonders if the church of Lolth isn't somehow involved--Lolth has a vested interest in keeping her people strong, yes, but also ALIVE, so the priestesses might *encourage* procreation in a number of ways (breeding houses? warrens?). And details about reproduction aren't the sort of thing the novels or sourcebooks would go into, probably. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 23:23:28
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Well it has varied with Editions, however Drow unlike other Elven races do have a high birth rate. As many as 10 children born to each females appears to be common (with some having many more and some having less). In Lolthian cities prehaps half the children will not live to adulthood. Adult battles of course will kill off some more, however those that make it to adulthood watch out to make sure they remain living. The society might kill 20 to 50 percent of them in power grabs, this however still allows for a net population growth baeeing a major war.
They can kill each other because there are so many of them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 02:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
But, in all seriousness, there is a potential problem in how many Drow get killed off due to internal disputes, power grabs, feud, etc. I seem to remember it being established that Drow are more prolific than other kinds of elves and one could argue that, plus power motivated adoption makes up the for the attrition, but given the semi-chaotic nature of Drow society and the lower scrutiny and expectation amongst the lower tiers of Drow society to appear as adhering to the laws I admit I am curious as to how the lower orders of Drow cities aren't wiped out by all the backstabbing and the like. Its an interesting consideration.
This is very true, but don't forget that while this sort of internal squabbling is disastrous for noble families, we know almost nothing about the 'peasant' class drow - ie, not every drow family is scraping for position. From the way Homeland tells it for example, poverty is a common thing in Menzoberranzan, and people in those situations are bent on achieving survival rather than power. Also, populations in poverty-stricken areas can escalate quite quickly, and because they remain outside the notice of warring drow familites, can keep their numbers higher.
In other words, I think that lower (and what few middle class exist) in Menzo might help thicken the race's population numbers.
Plus, I'm sure that Jarlaxle does his best to help repopulate the masses after particularly bad battles. You know, someone has to do the dirty jobs and make sacrifices.  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 11:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Fillow
, in the course of my games and of my second readings, I wondered how dark elves made not to decay due to the lack of population.
Indeed, a drow female has only 6 or 7 maximum children on average over so many centuries of life expectancy, but events driving to deaths are many: wars against nearby cities (Mithril hall, siege of Menzoberranzan, aso), wars between houses, wars between houses, settings of scores, murders for promotions or to protect ones situation, sacrifices, aso
I used to DM a lot of drow games, set in Menzoberranzan. As such I gave a lot of thought to how the city and the society works. (It doesn't make me an expert, or me an authority but it does mean I have an opinion to offer on it all.)
I described drow society as frozen chaos. Underneath the veneer of drowic civilisation and behind the beautiful features of many drow is the desire for violent revenge for past crimes, real or perceived. However, this rarely surfaces because so many checks and balances exist.
What prevents House Baenre from destroying House Barrison Del Armgo are the other noble Houses. These Houses may not like the Armgo but they certainly don't want to see the Baenre become even more powerful. Similarly, they don't want the Armgo to become more powerful by destroying the Baenre. Alliances tend not to work because the drow don't value loyalty highly. For example, the Armgo could seek to build an alliance of Houses against the Baenre but one of the allies is bound to inform the Baenre.
Everything is frozen. Which is why when an event like the Time of Troubles or Lolth's recent silence occurs, things finally happen. A catalyst is needed. The annihilation of Ched Nasad in the War of the Spider Queen novels demonstrates this very well. The Nasadran power structure hadn't changed for centuries and then suddenly the clerics, i.e the leaders lose their power and external powers arrive in force to catalyse the chaos.
The situation is mirrored inside a House too. The second daughter may plot to remove the first daughter. However, if the second daughter requires the help of the third daughter then the third daughter has the real power. She can decide to help the second since she moves up a position or she can choose to help the first, through informing since she still moves up a position. Therefore, plans tend to be long-range.
There is another very important factor to consider. The Matron. Her strength is her House. She would sooner have three female clerics to command then two. Similarly, she would sooner have 250 soldiers than 200. If one of her household acts in such a way as to weaken her House she will be very annoyed.
So the ideal thing for our ambitious second daughter is grow in strength to the extent that when she kills the first daughter, the House is not weakened. By her actions she needs to show that the House is stronger for the death of the first daughter.
Drow society, as I saw it, was unchanging. It is very difficult to kill another without it attracting someone else's attention.
I used to have players playing female clerics who thought they could order around any male. But that couldn't happen. A female of the 50th House can not command Gromph Baenre, because he isn't hers to command. As such, I designed my drow society to account for class and status as well as gender. To illustrate this, a sexist male plumber can not walk into the White House and order Michelle Obama to make him a cup of coffee. He keeps his opinions to himself. Similarly, he may not even think this because he sees her as belonging to a higher level in society.
I used to constantly remind players that drow have a +2 modifier to intelligence. They are chaotic evil not chaotic stupid. They are not violent psychopaths even though many of them have psychopathic tendencies. Drow aren't going to act unless they can get away with it.
The novels and some of the source-books tend to portray a violent society where murder is common-place. Many players like that and stubbornly insist that it really happens that way. But they cry foul when a higher-level NPC kills their PC. Suddenly the logic doesn't work.
The way I think of the drow is that inside them there is a burning rage. Sub-consciously they are angry at being thrown into the Underdark, their deities, Lolth, Vhaeraun and Kiaransalee are deities of vengeance. All of them seethe with hatred for past injustices. They lash out because they are angry. Yet they still have plans and those plans require strength, and strength is something that must be built.
As a chaotic goddess, Lolth probably hates the ossified structure of most of Menzoberranyr society (and others). For her, her real love is the lower levels. Not for nothing is she rumoured to appear in The Braeryn, because that is where chaos is more likely to happen. Similarly, I see her as being intimately fascinated by the newest Houses who are at the bottom of the ladder. These young Houses have yet to make powerful allies (or choose not to make them because of what they have to give). Alliances and positions are fluid at this level. If a House falls here, the city is not weakened.
However, this sort of chaos is not likely to happen to children because their mothers see their offspring as future strengths.
I once wrote an essay about drow society which I called "Only if". This means that a drow will kill an opponent only if they can get away with it, only if it does not weaken the whole and only if it really benefits them.
As I said earlier many players want to act out the novels. But the novels portray great events and are not representative of day-to-day life. Most drow cities and families do not change for many years. Which gives them more than enough time to build up their strength. However, if one thing should happen to upset the natural order (frozen chaos) such as happened to Ched Nasad and Maerymydra then a large-scale blood-letting occurs. It is probably these events Lolth loves. She sets up the house of cards and waits for the fall. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 17:15:02
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Some interesting quotes on this topic follow:
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A long-lived female drow, choosing to have children only after an active career, normally gives birth to ten children before her fertility wanes. (Drow of the Underdark 2E, p.17: "Marriage and Family Life")
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[... T]hough the drow feel little if any affection for their young, they understand the importance of continuing the family and house lines. (DOTU 3.5E, p.12: "Gender Roles")
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It would be easy to assume that the drow do not value family ties at all, and that they treat their own relatives as viciously and cavalierly as they do others of their race. This conclusion is not entirely accurate. It's true that most drow feel, at best, only slightly more affection for relatives than they do for others, and that members of a given family might hate and scheme against each other as thoroughly as they do anyone else. [...] Most drow, however, do not betray family members without good reason, and when they seek allies in an endeavor or protection from outside threats, they often turn to their relatives first. This tendency stems not from any true sense of endearment so much as simple logic. (DOTU 3.5E, p.24: "Family Units")
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The drow are notably more fertile than their surface-dwelling cousins. They become pregnant more easily and have a slightly shorter gestation period. (DOTU 3.5E, p.24: "Pregnancy, Birth, and Childhood")
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How can a culture this sadistic, this prone to betrayal and infighting, this bereft of any legal or moral code, possibly last for more than a few generations without obliterating itself?
The truth is, it can't. Drow society is absolutely and utterly unviable. By all rights, it should have murdered itself into oblivion eons ago.
It is only the will of of the goddess Lolth that prevents this circumstance from coming about. The Spider Queen likes her drow just as they are--violent, vicious, murderous, and treacherous. It suits her for their society to continue in this manner, and so continue it does.
Lolth works her will partly through her church. [...]
The Queen of Spiders is not a subtle or patient goddess, however, and if she feels that her priestesses are unable to take effective steps in such a matter, she steps in directly. As much as she encourages infighting and bloodshed, she grows wroth indeed at drow who threaten to collapse their entire precarious social system. [...] (DOTU 3.5E, p.26: "A Final Word on Drow Society")
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 02 Feb 2009 17:16:21 |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 18:25:14
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| Isn't it more or less the same problem with orcs? I'm sure they have many offspring per female, but considering how many are killed by adventures, regular soldiers of various nations, other orcs etc. is it also sufficient? I mean they really die like flies on the swords of the common adventurer (a very dangerous species that one ;) ) |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
Edited by - Aureus on 02 Feb 2009 18:26:43 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 19:41:54
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| Usually female orcs don't go to battle, so unless a group of adventurers is attacking the settlement and killing women and children (a very unheroic thing) then orcs really don't have much to worry about. Drow, on the other hand, are more likely to send both genders into combat and both genders are affected by murder and house wars. Therefore, they have a more unstable population structure. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 20:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
Isn't it more or less the same problem with orcs? I'm sure they have many offspring per female, but considering how many are killed by adventures, regular soldiers of various nations, other orcs etc. is it also sufficient?
The impression I got with orcs is that they tend to increase in number to the point where population pressure caused them to invade civilised lands. That's the impression I got with the Spine of the World anyway. They're like locusts in a way. They eke out a poor living in hill country but grow in number until they have sufficient males for a raiding party.
The root of the problem could be the chaotic evil alignment. A lot of people read the books and see violent psychopaths for CE. Whereas I see CE and see capitalism - selfish and unplanned. A CE character is selfish and lacks structure or a moral code. And that sort of personality covers many types. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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drow demography
