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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 15:19:35
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This was just something I was thinking about after I left my last exam for today -
Were prestige classes invented just for the power hungry gamer?
At it's most basic (at least according to 3e DMG, and Monte Cook's idea) a PrC is supposed to build and specify on your characters background and abilities. Somewhere along the way though some of these classes went from being a basic building block to a power gamers best friend.
Just what exactly is the purpose of these classes?
Are they simply tools to make your PC harder than it would normally be by adding more depth to your characters chosen direction?. Or should you just stick to a single class?.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this?.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Jul 2003 15:29:21
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 15:59:48
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I think the dreadknight, or woteva it is called is WAY too perful
Thats about the most intelligent comment I can make on the point, and there it is  |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 16:56:06
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| I have to agree with you in both cases. I think a prestige class can be use to add to the depth of a character, but I also think that some of them are just way to powerful. Example: a moderate to high level Shadowdance is almost impossible to hit. On the other hand some classes like Loremaster and fine tune a character. My feeling is this: A character with a prestige class at 20th level should not be grossly out of balance with a character without a prestige class at 20th level. |
Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 20:31:40
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My main problem with prestige classes is the same one I have with 3E in general... the whole frigging system is a power gamers wet dream. It gives WAY too much power to low level PC's without them having to really earn it. The prestige classes just compound the problem IMO. This is the main reason why I stick to 2E, even with all it foibles. It, at least, is geared to the roleplayers instead of the rollplayers.  |
"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon |
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 20:57:16
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I think the idea of prestige classes falls under the category of "nessesary evil". As diverse and flexible as all the core classes are, they're never going to be able to fully realize or fit every pc or npc out there.
Yes they can quickly become munkin characters if handled improperly but generally they're supposed to have as many disadvanteges as advanteges. If that's not the case, then is the time to do a little DM tweaking. That my opinion anyway. 
Mal |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2003 : 23:09:39
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I think there are some very carelessly designed prestige classes out there, mostly form independent d20 publishers, but in general I think they are excellent for character depth. Before in D&D, an archmage was just a very powerful wizard of 18th level or higher (someone who could cast 9th level spells). Now it actually MEANS something to be an archmage. If a DM is competent and knows the system, there is NOTHING that can overbalacne his/her game. A powergamer has no chance in my game, because I have it WAY under control.
Also prestige classes give you great benefits but you sacrifice some core benefits. Lets take an arcane archer at level 10. THe abilities are sweet yes. But she cannot be that high a level in mage, and must sacrifice spells. She needs a minimum attack bonus of +6 so she must be a 6th level fighter minimum or 12th level mage. Of course you would combine these, but my point is, you need prerequisites to balance it, and also must take into account the abilities they lose. So a FTR6/WIZ4/ARC10 is not going to have alot of devastating spells. Sure imbue arrow is nice, but if you want a nice area effect spell to add to it, again you have to sacrifice on fighter FEAT/AB. I think the good prestige classes work out. I have found alot of the hokey ones are from Dragon Magazine, or independent publishers.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 06:55:17
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I have to agree with that, Mournblade. I believe that much of anything else I would say would just be repeating you.  Of course, I've seen some hokey PrCs in Wizards-published material, too. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 07:02:47
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THe hokey PrC come from the CLASS SPECIFIC books I think. Generally there are good PrC's in these books, but each one has one or two that I think are very poorly designed. The Dragon Disciple and Blood magus are two that come to mind. The other books had some I don't like, for instance the exorcist I thought was a little pointless, but not overbalanced. BUT if you wanted this very specific type of character go for it. I guess I am thinking that the Tome and Blood had some of the worst PrC. I can't think of any from the other books right off the bat, so they could not of left that bad of an impression on me:)
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 08:29:25
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I haven't really studied most of the other PrCs, since I haven't been thinking about playing anything other than a wizard, an archer, or a duelist (the latter after seeing the PrC of the same name).
However, how about the Drunken Master? Don't you think that one's a bit . . . off? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:01:56
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I think the Wotc PrC are quite well balanced. They allow players to add more depth to their characters. On the contrary, some prestige class from D20 books are far too much munchkin PrC (I'm thinking of the Quintessential guides!).
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 09:51:34
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The PrC's from the 'Quintessential Guides' are among the worst. The most troubling aspect about those classes at least for me, is that most of my players normally look to these guides for ideas as to what PrC to select.
I have never really thought that much about the Alienist PrC from Tome and Blood either. There was a kit in 2e Planescape that was similar to this idea, but it was far better designed and was not so bland. I think it was in the Guide to Hell supplement, although I could be wrong about that.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 15:36:55
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Some reasons I don't like prestige classes (I've posted them elsewhere):
they promote the PC-power-centric type of sourcebook which retards the roleplaying industry by limiting it to a mentality only some people have, and they consume sourcebooks (and design man-hours) with material that's of little use to other play styles
they're bad ways of defining a lot of character types because they only work with mid- and high-level characters
they rarely allow a character to do anything not already possible in the rules, and so are 'bad' game design because D&D represents everything twice (once with abilities, classes and levels; once with skill and attack bonuses and saving throws). They often have abilities driven by game- rather than world-oriented thinking.
they're inevitably less well balanced than the core classes which, for a system that theoretically takes a lot of the DM's 'burden' onto the rules, means the DM must be alert for munchkin combinations
by being more powerful than core classes they weaken the archetypes and the core of the game at the expense of supplements (that cost money)
they buy into the con that you make your character interesting with rules gimmicks instead of how you play 'em.
the ethos of what character types are appropriate for prestige classes has been variable and incoherent since the concept was introduced
Above all this, they just come out of a very different kind of D&D than the one Ed plays, and so the one that fits the Realms. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 15:52:14
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Faraer said -
quote:
they buy into the con that you make your character interesting with rules gimmicks instead of how you play 'em.
Well put Faraer. I can agree with this. To me, the more plain and bland a player, the more likely he will chose a PrC. Instead of utilising the particular abilities of the character class you already have to their fullest potential, you have some players willing to abandon that and settle for rule-defined character roles, instead of player-defined character roles.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2003 : 16:07:25
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Roleplaying says 'you can make you own art/entertainment'. Then a lot of supplements implicitly say, 'You're not a professional author or actor. You can't be expected to make an interesting character. Here are some nice simple discreet prestige classes/feats/clans/factions/races/templates that will make your character stand out.' It's blatantly insulting, and it demeans the source material by transforming nuances and tendencies into simple categories -- the most absurd of example of that is (I'm not sure this is so in current material) in Vampire: The Masquerade the Toreador clan is literally divided into two factions, the Artistes and the Poseurs.
And in order that some players not feel deprived because the other guy has a prestige class but none suits their character concept, a lot of them are trumped up with even less cause than others. The Harper scout: Harpers don't get special abilities beyond being rangers, bards, mages, or whatever. The slicer class for the Star Wars RPG: all those extraneous mechanics when all you need is a Slicing skill. And so on. |
Edited by - Faraer on 25 Jul 2003 16:08:20 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 06:55:17
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| I have to agree with that Harper Scout bit. It's a bad representation of the Harpers. Sure, a Harper might pick up some interesting things along the way, but that PrC is just off. It's balanced game-wise, but not in the story. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 08:22:11
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I actually felt the same way when I looked over the Master Harper PrC. It seemed so overpowered, and it really devalued - at least for me - what a Harper is supposed to represent.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 09:43:49
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Maybe the question should be: "Which prestige classes are actually worth using?"
(Bet I know which one Sage likes the most!  ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 11:28:24
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And you would probably be right as well . Although I have been studying the revisions to the Dweomer Keeper PrC that will soon be released. I must say that this is an impressive reworking.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2003 : 20:25:30
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I always liked Ed's work, but since I am not playing in HIS game, and since he is not the master of the REALMS campaign I run, I am not too concerned if I am playing his D&D or not. the 3e system is radically different from the 2e system. I find that Prestige Classes are far better than Kits in most cases, and I do not think that Prestige Classes are put out due to a lack of creativity on anyone's part. The prestige classes are OPTIONAL and there are plenty I do not allow. In fact I pore over texts analyzing the balance and then I decide. If a class is unbalanced but a nice concept I might keep it. The converse is true. If the PrC is balanced but a lousy concept, I just won't allow it even if it will have no game bearing. I try to fit the PrC's into the realms, and If I can't then I scrap them. I found the PrC's in sword and fist to have to many SOCIETY prestige classes. SOme I was able to fit into the realms, and some I scrapped because I could not find a place for them.
I forgot to mention the PrC's in most of the Quintessential books are completely off the wall balance wise and concept wise.
Also have you seen the AVALANCHE press stuff? This company irritates me becasue they ALWAYS sell their product with a pretty girl on the cover. For example they had a NORSE supplement, with a picture of a typical comic girl heavy metal blonde, with skin tight leather armour, a bow and a ... KATANA???? OH! how VIKING of them! Worthless supplement.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 26 Jul 2003 20:28:13 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 03:04:53
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I agree, although sometimes I find myself looking over the older kits, especially in some of my Planescape material. Some of those kits were really balanced and well constructed. These are things I hope are made into PrC when the 3e setting is finally released.
Just before I go, Mournblade, are those AVALANCHE press people the same people who published those 'Norse' and 'Greek' pantheon books a while back?.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 07:33:01
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Apologies for the late reply:
It was indeed the BlackGuard I was talking about that I thought was too powerful. I dont know if he is an official one or not, I just saw him on the shadows of Undrentide website |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 10:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Also have you seen the AVALANCHE press stuff? This company irritates me becasue they ALWAYS sell their product with a pretty girl on the cover. For example they had a NORSE supplement, with a picture of a typical comic girl heavy metal blonde, with skin tight leather armour, a bow and a ... KATANA???? OH! how VIKING of them! Worthless supplement.
Ring of Rant Repulsion!
You've ranted on that before. However, I still agree with you. If they can't pay enough attention to actual historical record, then I don't pay any to them. Same goes for all those other oddities -- such as Viking helmets with horns on them (the real Norsemen didn't do that) or armor that couldn't possibly protect the wearer.
The latter usually ends up on a female body, too. I find that insulting, myself. It's as if they think all men prefer female skin to getting such things right. And this is true even for actual TSR/Wizards material. Look at the cover for the 2e FR Guide to the Savage Frontier. All I can say about that one is that at least it's an equal-opportunity exposed-flesh freezing. 
Hmm, maybe I need to borrow that ring myself. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 12:11:25
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The Mystic Theurge PrC is interesting, but this particular class seems to generate a lot of negative opinions on other forums. I am curious as to what others think about it here.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 12:30:51
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| What's that one from? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 12:34:20
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No, I was wrong. It was previously posted on the WotC website. I'll find the older version and provide a link for it, for those who may be interested.
Okay, here is the link for this class.
Enjoy .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Jul 2003 12:37:10 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 13:07:36
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| I don't know. I think this is possibly overpowered. I can't tell for sure, though, without playtesting it. (Something I can't do.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 18:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I don't know. I think this is possibly overpowered. I can't tell for sure, though, without playtesting it. (Something I can't do.)
Aha, someone who realizes they can't gauge game rules at a glance better than massed playtesters and professional game designers. Amazing how many messageboard posters think they can. |
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Prestige Classes vs. Core Classes
