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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1453 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2016 :  12:08:54  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see no reason why a hidden city, partially underground and laying deep within a large forest, is such a stretch of the imagination.


Curiously, there is a minotaur adventure in a forest in the 1st edition Book of Lairs II. There are only eight of them - a small tribe -, but they use a labyrynth of thorns inside the forest as their lair...

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

134 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2016 :  17:57:21  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
got the main text and the sand box done and am currently working on the con game/starting point of a potential adventure path.

However, I have a somewhat related question.

has anybody done the fling enemies/fling allies as feats for 5e? I really want these, but if somebody has beaten me to the punch, I'd rather reference them. :)

Also any minotaur suggested feats/items/etc that are already on the dungeons master's guild and/or official material?


check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com

Edited by - shades of eternity on 29 Oct 2016 17:57:54
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Tigon
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USA
36 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  08:46:26  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Has there been any movement on this in the past year and a half? I'm highly interested in how/ a minotaur society fits in on Faerun
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

706 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  09:43:06  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Baphometian cult. Minotaur "cities" would be gigantic mazes where the natives can exploit their natural cunning while visitors need (paid-off) guides and prey need prayers.

They're simply not the types to build cities. Dragonlance minotaurs are about as relevant to minotaur debates as gully dwarves are to dwarves in general.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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31146 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  15:36:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see how Dragonlance minotaurs and minotaurs of other settings are all that different.

We have at least one minotaur in the Realms that has managed to integrate into human society. And we have a canon minotaur kingdom that lasted for more than six centuries -- that's a lot longer than a lot of human nations in the Realms.

Personally, I don't see how it is at all unreasonable to assume that an intelligent people, free from outside influences and with a history of domination by others, might decide to make their own homeland and live there quietly. Especially since we know they've made their own realms in the past.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Feb 2018 15:40:07
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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  16:57:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dragonlance has Manotaurs - they're completely different. I spell them differently just to note the difference.

Krynn minotaurs (manotaurs) have human-like legs and feet, and are roughly human sized (big, but no bigger than a large human), and are able to create complex societies. They also have females of the species.

Generic (D&D) minotaurs are large, hulking brutes, almost like ogres with a bull's head. And they have a bull's legs, as well, with the backwards-bending thing of an animal. they are man-eaters (I don't think Krynn's are, but truthfully, I don't know all that much about the setting). And you never see females; in mythology they mated with human females, but even in D&D I don't recall any females from any adventure or lore (not saying there aren't, but they must hide their women well LOL). I believe in early editions the were created magically by wizards (and others) as guards and such, but I have no idea what they did in that regard from 3e on.

And the weirdest part about this, is that I had just used 'Minotaurs' as the answer to something else, and this was the very next thread down. So weird - its like a 'hive mind' around here sometimes.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2018 21:11:51
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  19:03:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They had a kingdom that lasted for 6 centuries, and they've continued to exist since then. It's pretty safe to assume that there are female minotaurs in the Realms, and that while some minotaurs do eat human flesh, a lot of them don't.

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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  21:20:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, I would spin that as a group of 'Manotaurs' (not necessarily from Krynn).

While a lot of things I like to put together and combine them (especially gods), with something like this I prefer to have two versions. The 'monster' type, and the 'people' type. Possibly even say the monstrous variety was originally created by 'ebil Wizards' (or priests, etc.) by 'dark rituals and crossbreeding', and then someone had the idea of breeding those with human females, until a funcional race emerged (the more human-like variety). Of course, it may have been the Minotaurs themselves that started that process...

I can even picture minotaurs settlements having both kinds, like a caste system. It might even be fun to create a true caste system and create other varieties ('Longhorn', 'Angus', 'Holsein', etc.) I feel like if I went back through this thread I suggested something similar once before. 'Brahman' would definitely be the Priest Class.

EDIT:
Conversely, we could say the humanish variety was first, and then someone crossbred those with ogres (keeping somewhat in-tune with Krynn's version).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2018 21:21:31
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  23:21:10  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Minotaur Kingdom likely kept itself populated by simply buying female human slaves.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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31146 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  23:45:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

See, I would spin that as a group of 'Manotaurs' (not necessarily from Krynn).

While a lot of things I like to put together and combine them (especially gods), with something like this I prefer to have two versions. The 'monster' type, and the 'people' type. Possibly even say the monstrous variety was originally created by 'ebil Wizards' (or priests, etc.) by 'dark rituals and crossbreeding', and then someone had the idea of breeding those with human females, until a funcional race emerged (the more human-like variety). Of course, it may have been the Minotaurs themselves that started that process...

I can even picture minotaurs settlements having both kinds, like a caste system. It might even be fun to create a true caste system and create other varieties ('Longhorn', 'Angus', 'Holsein', etc.) I feel like if I went back through this thread I suggested something similar once before. 'Brahman' would definitely be the Priest Class.

EDIT:
Conversely, we could say the humanish variety was first, and then someone crossbred those with ogres (keeping somewhat in-tune with Krynn's version).



The way I like to see it, the Baphomet-worshiping minotaurs are the monstrous ones. The ones that go for other deities are more civilized. There's no physical difference between the two, it's all cultural, and mostly down to the environment they're raised in.

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sleyvas
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7062 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  13:30:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Dragonlance has Manotaurs - they're completely different. I spell them differently just to note the difference.

Krynn minotaurs (manotaurs) have human-like legs and feet, and are roughly human sized (big, but no bigger than a large human), and are able to create complex societies. They also have females of the species.

Generic (D&D) minotaurs are large, hulking brutes, almost like ogres with a bull's head. And they have a bull's legs, as well, with the backwards-bending thing of an animal. they are man-eaters (I don't think Krynn's are, but truthfully, I don't know all that much about the setting). And you never see females; in mythology they mated with human females, but even in D&D I don't recall any females from any adventure or lore (not saying there aren't, but they must hide their women well LOL). I believe in early editions the were created magically by wizards (and others) as guards and such, but I have no idea what they did in that regard from 3e on.

And the weirdest part about this, is that I had just used 'Minotaurs' as the answer to something else, and this was the very next thread down. So weird - its like a 'hive mind' around here sometimes.



Careful with that... there is a specific creature named a manotaur. Its a bull bottom (as in full bull), minotaur torso kind of creature.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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706 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  13:50:26  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

See, I would spin that as a group of 'Manotaurs' (not necessarily from Krynn).

While a lot of things I like to put together and combine them (especially gods), with something like this I prefer to have two versions. The 'monster' type, and the 'people' type. Possibly even say the monstrous variety was originally created by 'ebil Wizards' (or priests, etc.) by 'dark rituals and crossbreeding', and then someone had the idea of breeding those with human females, until a funcional race emerged (the more human-like variety). Of course, it may have been the Minotaurs themselves that started that process...

I can even picture minotaurs settlements having both kinds, like a caste system. It might even be fun to create a true caste system and create other varieties ('Longhorn', 'Angus', 'Holsein', etc.) I feel like if I went back through this thread I suggested something similar once before. 'Brahman' would definitely be the Priest Class.

EDIT:
Conversely, we could say the humanish variety was first, and then someone crossbred those with ogres (keeping somewhat in-tune with Krynn's version).



The way I like to see it, the Baphomet-worshiping minotaurs are the monstrous ones. The ones that go for other deities are more civilized. There's no physical difference between the two, it's all cultural, and mostly down to the environment they're raised in.




There's no real evidence to suggest that Baphometian minotaurs are less civilized than, say, Vaprak (If anything, given Baphomet himself is relatively civilized, they'd probably be more erudite than non-Baphometians). Your average minotaur is probably not going to worship a civilized evil power like Bane or Hextor, when he has Vaprak, Talos, Malar, Baphomet or Erythnul to appeal to his sensibilities.
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sleyvas
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USA
7062 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  14:01:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon

Has there been any movement on this in the past year and a half? I'm highly interested in how/ a minotaur society fits in on Faerun



Within the past year you will find another thread where we were discussing the concept of a minotaur culture.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21259

There isn't one necessarily in Faerun, except possibly down in Veldorn. However, a fellow Candlekeep author wrote a DM's Guild products based upon the idea of a non-canon group of minotaurs in the stonelands. There is a canon race of minotaur LIKE beings known as Baphotaurs.

On a sidenote, one of the cultures I'm introducing in Katashaka is Yithakar, the Empire of the Earth Emperor. In this culture I'm putting in Yak-Men, minotaurs, ibixians (goat folk), manotaurs (tauric bull men), ibixotaur (tauric goat folk... not bariaur, as their faces are goat-like.. and these beings will be size medium and live in the mountains), nyalaaku (a large tauric folk with various antelope colorations and horn types... see pictures of Eland, Nyala, Kudu, gazelle, and wildebeast for examples). This group will worship demon cults (Baphomet, Orcus, and Eltab) and similar beings such as Gargauth at the upper echelons of power. They may also worship the archomentals (princes of elemental evil). They also worship some non-evil deities such as the goat headed Egyptian god Khnum (lord of rivers, fertile soil, male virility and pottery) and the cow headed Egyptian goddess Hathor (goddess of family, female fertility, and childbirth).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Feb 2018 15:06:37
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Dalor Darden
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USA
3593 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  15:30:41  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was in the past a nation of minotaurs on the shores of the Moonsea right?

AD&D for me!
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3938 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  15:39:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was, the minotaurs of grong haarp.

I think they fought against Haask of Ironfang Keep. If i remember correctly the minotaurs were winning and Haask retreated into Ironfang Keep and tried to summon Hargut, then Bhaal stabbed Haask and the Dark Three then forced Haask and Hargut to merge.

Then i cant quite recall what happened but im thinking Tyranthraxus and his Twisted Legion then beat the remnants (although Edranka may have died.

I may have completely misremembered all that but if you search the 4e dragon and dungeon articles about Ironfang Keep and the Something of the Ancients (both excellent treasure troves of lore by Brian James i believe) then you should be able to piece together the full picture on the minotaurs.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  15:40:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

There was in the past a nation of minotaurs on the shores of the Moonsea right?



quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.


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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  15:47:16  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, that's the one!

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1639 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  18:26:52  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Careful with that... there is a specific creature named a manotaur. Its a bull bottom (as in full bull), minotaur torso kind of creature.

I did disagree with Andrey Lensky on many things, but would sign under his summary on the Combinatorial Copycat Creatures phenomenon: "Maybe I am a snob, but in my view, such 'creativity' needs to be given its due. With a candelabra. :-)" I know, beating a dead Hapony...

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

There's no real evidence to suggest that Baphometian minotaurs are less civilized than, say, Vaprak (If anything, given Baphomet himself is relatively civilized, they'd probably be more erudite than non-Baphometians). Your average minotaur is probably not going to worship a civilized evil power like Bane or Hextor, when he has Vaprak, Talos, Malar, Baphomet or Erythnul to appeal to his sensibilities.

Also, there already are fiend-blooded baphitaurs that bred not to be "exxxtra brutal", but rather smarter and sneakier.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2018 :  19:48:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am sure I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but I may as well mention it again, because recenty I did a newer WIP map of the Utter East, and am planning on doing something on the DMs Guild with that,

There is a minotaur 'kingdom' in the Sllaviul mountains on the southern border of Ulgarth. Now, nothing canon says that, but minotaurs are on some encounter tables for nearby areas, and I decided to roll with that. Its not a very formal thing - just a few clans, each with their own 'Marl' (equivalent to a Norse 'Jarl'), and then they have a 'High Marl' who basically just runs the meetings when the jarls get together (and he usually gets his way, which makes him fairly close to them having a king... but not quite). These minotaurs live peaceably with the nearby humans, for the most part (as much as humans get along with each other, anyway), and have even hired-out as mercenaries from time to time. Considering the plethora of truly evil 'monsters' in other mountains in the regions (especially the Yehimals), they are considered 'good neighbors', and a great 'buffer zone' between the human countries and the 'forces of evil' in the region.

Originally, I was going to say my homebrew city of San Taur turned into Esbrech (which is a canon settlement with no lore). I came up with the name 'San Taur' because I had originally called it 'Sanctuary', and I literally only had to erase two letters to create the name (I planned to use the city of Sanctuary from the Thieves World setting). The 'taur' in the name then gave me the idea for some lore about a minotaur hero once saving the townsfolk from a pirate raid, and then the minotaurs in the region just grew out of that (all because I altered a name so as to not step on another IP). Now San Taur is a small town working on becoming a large one, and has no connection to Esbresh, other than Esbresh being a far-southern outpost of Ulgarth, and the place where trade sometimes passes through from the Utter East (the little bit that goes by land). It's a human town, and I kept that history I created intact, and now minotaur 'barbarians' are welcome in the town to trade, and a few even live there. So not really a minotaur settlement by any stretch of the imagination, but enough are there for outsiders to maybe get that impression. Minotaurs can be hired there as ship crew, soldiers, whatever. Many young 'taurs earn fame & fortune in this manner, before returning home to find a mate. And if you wanted to deal directly with the minotaur 'nation', you would have to contact them first in Esbresh (there is a tavern - The Bull's Horn - that acts like their 'embassy', of sorts).

They do not like - nor live with any - of the large, brutish kind. In fact, many of those are part of the monster Kingdom of Nix, and they have been fighting-off attacks from them for centuries (Nix's King Redfang insists they join him, but they refuse). About a dozen or so Sllaviul minotaurs have made it all the way to Waterdeep (after hiring on as ship-crew), and they command very high prices as 'escorts' into Undermountain. The minotaurs natural ability to navigate labyrinths comes in MIGHTY handy, and many adventurers consider it worth the price hiring them to accompany them. At least one can be found at any time drinking at the Yawning Portal, looking for work. Thus far, every single foray the minotaurs have made, they've come back from (but perhaps not the rest of the party... no-one knows for sure).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2018 19:56:41
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Tigon
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USA
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Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  09:42:15  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Tigon

Has there been any movement on this in the past year and a half? I'm highly interested in how/ a minotaur society fits in on Faerun



Within the past year you will find another thread where we were discussing the concept of a minotaur culture.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21259

There isn't one necessarily in Faerun, except possibly down in Veldorn. However, a fellow Candlekeep author wrote a DM's Guild products based upon the idea of a non-canon group of minotaurs in the stonelands. There is a canon race of minotaur LIKE beings known as Baphotaurs.





I saw that, I was just really digging this lore that ShadowJack had with the Minotaurs escaping captivity with the help of the elves who would call upon them later for a favor, then bringing the gnomes... really fit well with the random happenstance that one of the players in my campaign wanted to play a minotaur and another wanted to play a gnome.

quote:

Originally posted by LordofBones

Baphometian cult. Minotaur "cities" would be gigantic mazes where the natives can exploit their natural cunning while visitors need (paid-off) guides and prey need prayers.

They're simply not the types to build cities. Dragonlance minotaurs are about as relevant to minotaur debates as gully dwarves are to dwarves in general.



Honestly, it seems as though you didnt even bother to take the time to read the rest of the thread. Im interested in the content provided in this thread that started 12 years ago in 2006, which had a ton of thought and discussion that went into it. You seem to just want to passive aggressively state that no one elses opinion on the matter is relevant, so i'm going to chose to ignore yours.

quote:


Originally posted by sleyvas

On a sidenote, one of the cultures I'm introducing in Katashaka is Yithakar, the Empire of the Earth Emperor. In this culture I'm putting in Yak-Men, minotaurs, ibixians (goat folk), manotaurs (tauric bull men), ibixotaur (tauric goat folk... not bariaur, as their faces are goat-like.. and these beings will be size medium and live in the mountains), nyalaaku (a large tauric folk with various antelope colorations and horn types... see pictures of Eland, Nyala, Kudu, gazelle, and wildebeast for examples). This group will worship demon cults (Baphomet, Orcus, and Eltab) and similar beings such as Gargauth at the upper echelons of power. They may also worship the archomentals (princes of elemental evil). They also worship some non-evil deities such as the goat headed Egyptian god Khnum (lord of rivers, fertile soil, male virility and pottery) and the cow headed Egyptian goddess Hathor (goddess of family, female fertility, and childbirth).



Ok I follow you on this, and indeed I like where you're going with it but, how civilized are they and, my biggest question... why on earth would they worship Gargauth? Doesn't seem like it would fit his portfolio at all, except than BECAUSE of his portfolio he could, potentially have any reason for reaching out to them based on his goals... but, that would indicate he had ulterior motives for... ┐manipulating? them.

((as you can see by my avatar... big Gargauth fan here))

Edited by - Tigon on 14 Feb 2018 11:52:13
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LordofBones
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706 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  15:17:20  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You asked about how a minotaur society fits in Faerun, not for anything specific. Minotaurs are usually chaotic evil and generally worship Baphomet.

I can buy neutral minotaurs, but I'd think that a group of neutral minotaurs would generally stay away from most civilized areas in the Realms unless working as mercenaries. Like drow, minotaurs are usually evil; unlike drow, they don't have a racial deity of good like Eilistraae. Where Eilistraaen drow can and do build enclaves, minotaurs don't seem to have any real inclination towards large-scale cooperation unless being bullied into it by someone stronger. They also only have Int 7, so long-term planning isn't something I'd expect from minotaurs as a whole.

With regard to Krynnish minotaurs, the reason I'm not including them with common D&D minotaurs is that they're technically not D&D minotaurs. For one, they're not monstrous humanoids (they're humanoid [minotaur]) and they don't have darkvision. They're also smarter (-2 Int vs the standard -4 Int of normal minotaurs).

Edited by - LordofBones on 14 Feb 2018 15:18:41
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Tigon
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USA
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Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  16:19:27  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

You asked about how a minotaur society fits in Faerun, not for anything specific. Minotaurs are usually chaotic evil and generally worship Baphomet.

I can buy neutral minotaurs, but I'd think that a group of neutral minotaurs would generally stay away from most civilized areas in the Realms unless working as mercenaries. Like drow, minotaurs are usually evil; unlike drow, they don't have a racial deity of good like Eilistraae. Where Eilistraaen drow can and do build enclaves, minotaurs don't seem to have any real inclination towards large-scale cooperation unless being bullied into it by someone stronger. They also only have Int 7, so long-term planning isn't something I'd expect from minotaurs as a whole.

With regard to Krynnish minotaurs, the reason I'm not including them with common D&D minotaurs is that they're technically not D&D minotaurs. For one, they're not monstrous humanoids (they're humanoid [minotaur]) and they don't have darkvision. They're also smarter (-2 Int vs the standard -4 Int of normal minotaurs).



quote:
Originally posted by Tigon

Has there been any movement on this in the past year and a half? I'm highly interested in how/ a minotaur society fits in on Faerun



Actually, i asked if there had been any movement on this in the past year. This thread. Sorry if that wasnt clear, but I thought it was obvious posting for an update on a 7 page, and 12 year old thread, that goes into not only ideas about a minotaur society (not cannon mind you), but also details about not only named champions of the tribe, a back story and timeline in the realms about the tribe escaping enslavement from the giant tribes with the help of some elves, wherein the minotaurs settle around the lake of steam, and then the elves come calling on them to honor their ancient agreement and harbor/protect some gnomes who were escaping the Netheril as well as an artifact. See details below from page 3 of this thread.

To be clear, im specifically asking if there was any movement on this thread/story arc. I sent the OP (ShadowJack)a private message but I apparently dont have enough posts on the forum yet to send them an email and was hoping one of the others who were active in the original discussion would chime in. I had one of the players in a brand new campaign im starting want to be a gnome while another wanted to play a minotaur and I randomly stumbled upon this thread which just so happened to fit so I was looking to see if any more details/more recent events had been added or if i needed to take it from here.

that might have been obvious with a review of the thread before a snarky response about gully dwarves.


quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack

Well Met and Good Day, Noble Sages!

I have been working on details/timeline (rough) of our minotaur hero (here after referred to as Ketor; name subject to change) I will post this in sections so it will not be too long. I ask for your opinions and help in correcting any mistakes or conflicts...

-6000 A splinter/remnant of Ostoria has been in existence for several hundred years on the present day Thayan Plateau. The giants of this small realm are few in number and rule it with an iron hand. Despite constant pressure from numerous foes, the kingdom has persisted, due in large part to the huge numbers of minotaurs that serve the Giants as troops. A large population of gnolls are also used as cannon fodder by the giant rulers of the kingdom. There is constant fighting between the minotaurs and gnolls.

-5500 Due to attrition, the minotaur population has steadily declined, they now number seriously less than the gnolls that are there neighbors. Gnolls are gaining more prestige with giant rulers due to their larger numbers.

-5300 Ketor, a minotaur leader, gains notice of minotaurs and Giant Rulers alike, due to his large size, great wisdom and strength. Under his leadership the minotaurs are winning every battle they engage in for their giant masters. Ketor is alarmed by the cost (in lives)to his people. The gnolls cease hostilites, largely out of fear of Ketor's leadership.

-5295 Ketor appeals to his giant masters for a reprieve from the fighting. He asks for time for the minotaurs to rebuild strength. The giant Lords refuse and order him north to attack hobgoblin tribes. After they are killed or driven off the minotaurs are to attack into the Auldgloam and seize elven cities. The minotaurs will be the spearhead and the gnolls will follow behind to clean up.

-5294 Bound by his peoples oath of service to the Giant Kings of the realm, Ketor leads his people north and engages the hobgoblins. They win every battle, but the losses are higher than expected. The minotaur groups split over the casualties. Several large bands of minotaurs break their oaths and leave in the night. Eventually, these groups enter the Underdark to hide from their enemies and former masters. These minotaurs are referred to by the Ketoran Minotaurs as the "Shamed" and the event as the "Shame". The minotaurs as a fighting force are now greatly weakened.

-5293 Saddened by the schism in his people and further losses to the numerous (but retreating) hobgoblins, Ketor stops short of invading the Auldgloam. He claims he is taking time to regroup his forces and await the gnoll legions, but, actually, he has received a vision in his dreams; the minotaurs destruction is inevitable if they enter the Auldgloam. This vision is delivered by a bloodied and crippled human surrounded by a glowing light. Ketor secures his position and, with a few of his great warleaders, returns to the Thayan Plateau to report to his masters. He shares his vision with them and asks that his people be withdrawn from the attack on the elves. The giants are outraged, a fight ensues, Ketor's warleaders are killed and he is seriously wounded. Ketor escapes from the Giants Stronghold. He is close to death and collapses... The giant lords dispatch one of their own to take command of the minotaurs and proceeed with the attack on the Auldgloam.

more later...

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  17:32:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think ShadowJack has moved on to other things; it looks like he's not been here since 2009.

It's a pity, too, because I was really digging the ideas we had going on, here. It's crossed my mind once or twice since then to dust off the discussion and do something with it, but my free time is not copious and I'm easily distracted by bright and shiny objects.

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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  18:43:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, last I heard GK was working on some UE history, so it might be fun for him to incorporate (and finish) that timeline above. What have we got so far? I've been reading back through the thread, and I'm only on pg.2 (I'll edit this post as I go along), but we have...

1) The group in The Labyrinth Underdark

2) Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.

3) My Group in the Sllaviul Mountains on the southern border of Ulgarth.

4) Gray's group in the Silverwood.

5) A proposed group for the Thayan Plateau (although, with recent - and not so recent - events, one might want to put them on the other side of the Sunrise Mountains. There is a bump-in in those mountains from the Taan side, halfway between Beacon Cairn and Citadel Rashemar on old maps that would be a good place where the plateau continues on the far side of those mountains.

8) 'Keltorn', in the Qurth Forest, in the Border kingdoms

7) A possible group of them in Katshaka (although my own ideas for Kata run in another direction).

Notes: Considering other lore in the Moonsea East region (a citystate that got collapsed into the Underdark by Drow) would indicate to me that there is a major network of tunnels & caves going on in the southern Galenas, and if minotaurs are still in the region (and I don't see why there can't be - its a 'dead spot' lore-wise, and there are literally hundreds of miles of uncharted mountains), they've probably either been mostly enslaved by the drow (who may have come from elsewhere themselves), or are in hiding from them, or some combination (an on-going war that they've been steadily losing for centuries). Considering the nature of those mountains (I don't think they were 'always' there), and that they have Bloodstone, it would be an interesting region to imagine a large surface population of creatures that are normally hidden below - a 'city of monsters', if you will).

EDIT: I am actually picturing something very much like Skullport, but actually ON the Moonsea itself. It could even be a place where many of the Zhents fled to after their own city was destroyed.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2018 01:03:39
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 14 Feb 2018 :  19:40:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I went over this discussion earlier, myself, and find myself once more dwelling on the divine concerns we'd previously addressed.

We had pretty much agreed on the former leader of our minotaurs becoming a demipower, but we never got anywhere on who his divine sponsor was. Me, I favor Torm, but the timing was wrong for that.

I'm kinda thinking that the determination to watch over themselves could be enough of an angle to make a case for Helm having been Keltor's sponsor, but it's a bit of a stretch, and I don't know about the timing.

It also occurs to me that the sponsor could have been someone who has since fallen; Keltor may have since had to switch to a new divine sponsor.

(I randomly just thought of Auppenser; maybe Keltor was a psionicist? I'd need to recheck the timing and re-read about Auppenser; I suggested minotaurs, strength, determination, self-rule, and independence, originally, which may or may not fit well with Auppenser. Admittedly, I have a fondness for psionics)

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