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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 09:43:06
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Baphometian cult. Minotaur "cities" would be gigantic mazes where the natives can exploit their natural cunning while visitors need (paid-off) guides and prey need prayers.
They're simply not the types to build cities. Dragonlance minotaurs are about as relevant to minotaur debates as gully dwarves are to dwarves in general. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 15:36:26
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I don't see how Dragonlance minotaurs and minotaurs of other settings are all that different.
We have at least one minotaur in the Realms that has managed to integrate into human society. And we have a canon minotaur kingdom that lasted for more than six centuries -- that's a lot longer than a lot of human nations in the Realms.
Personally, I don't see how it is at all unreasonable to assume that an intelligent people, free from outside influences and with a history of domination by others, might decide to make their own homeland and live there quietly. Especially since we know they've made their own realms in the past. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Feb 2018 15:40:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 16:57:08
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Dragonlance has Manotaurs - they're completely different. I spell them differently just to note the difference.
Krynn minotaurs (manotaurs) have human-like legs and feet, and are roughly human sized (big, but no bigger than a large human), and are able to create complex societies. They also have females of the species.
Generic (D&D) minotaurs are large, hulking brutes, almost like ogres with a bull's head. And they have a bull's legs, as well, with the backwards-bending thing of an animal. they are man-eaters (I don't think Krynn's are, but truthfully, I don't know all that much about the setting). And you never see females; in mythology they mated with human females, but even in D&D I don't recall any females from any adventure or lore (not saying there aren't, but they must hide their women well LOL). I believe in early editions the were created magically by wizards (and others) as guards and such, but I have no idea what they did in that regard from 3e on.
And the weirdest part about this, is that I had just used 'Minotaurs' as the answer to something else, and this was the very next thread down. So weird - its like a 'hive mind' around here sometimes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2018 21:11:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 19:03:08
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| They had a kingdom that lasted for 6 centuries, and they've continued to exist since then. It's pretty safe to assume that there are female minotaurs in the Realms, and that while some minotaurs do eat human flesh, a lot of them don't. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 21:20:08
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See, I would spin that as a group of 'Manotaurs' (not necessarily from Krynn).
While a lot of things I like to put together and combine them (especially gods), with something like this I prefer to have two versions. The 'monster' type, and the 'people' type. Possibly even say the monstrous variety was originally created by 'ebil Wizards' (or priests, etc.) by 'dark rituals and crossbreeding', and then someone had the idea of breeding those with human females, until a funcional race emerged (the more human-like variety). Of course, it may have been the Minotaurs themselves that started that process...
I can even picture minotaurs settlements having both kinds, like a caste system. It might even be fun to create a true caste system and create other varieties ('Longhorn', 'Angus', 'Holsein', etc.) I feel like if I went back through this thread I suggested something similar once before. 'Brahman' would definitely be the Priest Class. 
EDIT:
Conversely, we could say the humanish variety was first, and then someone crossbred those with ogres (keeping somewhat in-tune with Krynn's version). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2018 21:21:31 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 23:21:10
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| The Minotaur Kingdom likely kept itself populated by simply buying female human slaves. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 23:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, I would spin that as a group of 'Manotaurs' (not necessarily from Krynn).
While a lot of things I like to put together and combine them (especially gods), with something like this I prefer to have two versions. The 'monster' type, and the 'people' type. Possibly even say the monstrous variety was originally created by 'ebil Wizards' (or priests, etc.) by 'dark rituals and crossbreeding', and then someone had the idea of breeding those with human females, until a funcional race emerged (the more human-like variety). Of course, it may have been the Minotaurs themselves that started that process...
I can even picture minotaurs settlements having both kinds, like a caste system. It might even be fun to create a true caste system and create other varieties ('Longhorn', 'Angus', 'Holsein', etc.) I feel like if I went back through this thread I suggested something similar once before. 'Brahman' would definitely be the Priest Class.
EDIT:
Conversely, we could say the humanish variety was first, and then someone crossbred those with ogres (keeping somewhat in-tune with Krynn's version).
The way I like to see it, the Baphomet-worshiping minotaurs are the monstrous ones. The ones that go for other deities are more civilized. There's no physical difference between the two, it's all cultural, and mostly down to the environment they're raised in.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 13:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Dragonlance has Manotaurs - they're completely different. I spell them differently just to note the difference.
Krynn minotaurs (manotaurs) have human-like legs and feet, and are roughly human sized (big, but no bigger than a large human), and are able to create complex societies. They also have females of the species.
Generic (D&D) minotaurs are large, hulking brutes, almost like ogres with a bull's head. And they have a bull's legs, as well, with the backwards-bending thing of an animal. they are man-eaters (I don't think Krynn's are, but truthfully, I don't know all that much about the setting). And you never see females; in mythology they mated with human females, but even in D&D I don't recall any females from any adventure or lore (not saying there aren't, but they must hide their women well LOL). I believe in early editions the were created magically by wizards (and others) as guards and such, but I have no idea what they did in that regard from 3e on.
And the weirdest part about this, is that I had just used 'Minotaurs' as the answer to something else, and this was the very next thread down. So weird - its like a 'hive mind' around here sometimes.
Careful with that... there is a specific creature named a manotaur. Its a bull bottom (as in full bull), minotaur torso kind of creature. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 13:50:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See, I would spin that as a group of 'Manotaurs' (not necessarily from Krynn).
While a lot of things I like to put together and combine them (especially gods), with something like this I prefer to have two versions. The 'monster' type, and the 'people' type. Possibly even say the monstrous variety was originally created by 'ebil Wizards' (or priests, etc.) by 'dark rituals and crossbreeding', and then someone had the idea of breeding those with human females, until a funcional race emerged (the more human-like variety). Of course, it may have been the Minotaurs themselves that started that process...
I can even picture minotaurs settlements having both kinds, like a caste system. It might even be fun to create a true caste system and create other varieties ('Longhorn', 'Angus', 'Holsein', etc.) I feel like if I went back through this thread I suggested something similar once before. 'Brahman' would definitely be the Priest Class.
EDIT:
Conversely, we could say the humanish variety was first, and then someone crossbred those with ogres (keeping somewhat in-tune with Krynn's version).
The way I like to see it, the Baphomet-worshiping minotaurs are the monstrous ones. The ones that go for other deities are more civilized. There's no physical difference between the two, it's all cultural, and mostly down to the environment they're raised in.
There's no real evidence to suggest that Baphometian minotaurs are less civilized than, say, Vaprak (If anything, given Baphomet himself is relatively civilized, they'd probably be more erudite than non-Baphometians). Your average minotaur is probably not going to worship a civilized evil power like Bane or Hextor, when he has Vaprak, Talos, Malar, Baphomet or Erythnul to appeal to his sensibilities. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 14:01:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
Has there been any movement on this in the past year and a half? I'm highly interested in how/ a minotaur society fits in on Faerun
Within the past year you will find another thread where we were discussing the concept of a minotaur culture.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21259
There isn't one necessarily in Faerun, except possibly down in Veldorn. However, a fellow Candlekeep author wrote a DM's Guild products based upon the idea of a non-canon group of minotaurs in the stonelands. There is a canon race of minotaur LIKE beings known as Baphotaurs.
On a sidenote, one of the cultures I'm introducing in Katashaka is Yithakar, the Empire of the Earth Emperor. In this culture I'm putting in Yak-Men, minotaurs, ibixians (goat folk), manotaurs (tauric bull men), ibixotaur (tauric goat folk... not bariaur, as their faces are goat-like.. and these beings will be size medium and live in the mountains), nyalaaku (a large tauric folk with various antelope colorations and horn types... see pictures of Eland, Nyala, Kudu, gazelle, and wildebeast for examples). This group will worship demon cults (Baphomet, Orcus, and Eltab) and similar beings such as Gargauth at the upper echelons of power. They may also worship the archomentals (princes of elemental evil). They also worship some non-evil deities such as the goat headed Egyptian god Khnum (lord of rivers, fertile soil, male virility and pottery) and the cow headed Egyptian goddess Hathor (goddess of family, female fertility, and childbirth). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Feb 2018 15:06:37 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 15:30:41
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| There was in the past a nation of minotaurs on the shores of the Moonsea right? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 15:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
There was in the past a nation of minotaurs on the shores of the Moonsea right?
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 15:47:16
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| Yep, that's the one! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 18:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Careful with that... there is a specific creature named a manotaur. Its a bull bottom (as in full bull), minotaur torso kind of creature.
I did disagree with Andrey Lensky on many things, but would sign under his summary on the Combinatorial Copycat Creatures phenomenon: "Maybe I am a snob, but in my view, such 'creativity' needs to be given its due. With a candelabra. :-)" I know, beating a dead Hapony... 
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There's no real evidence to suggest that Baphometian minotaurs are less civilized than, say, Vaprak (If anything, given Baphomet himself is relatively civilized, they'd probably be more erudite than non-Baphometians). Your average minotaur is probably not going to worship a civilized evil power like Bane or Hextor, when he has Vaprak, Talos, Malar, Baphomet or Erythnul to appeal to his sensibilities.
Also, there already are fiend-blooded baphitaurs that bred not to be "exxxtra brutal", but rather smarter and sneakier. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 19:48:10
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I am sure I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but I may as well mention it again, because recenty I did a newer WIP map of the Utter East, and am planning on doing something on the DMs Guild with that,
There is a minotaur 'kingdom' in the Sllaviul mountains on the southern border of Ulgarth. Now, nothing canon says that, but minotaurs are on some encounter tables for nearby areas, and I decided to roll with that. Its not a very formal thing - just a few clans, each with their own 'Marl' (equivalent to a Norse 'Jarl'), and then they have a 'High Marl' who basically just runs the meetings when the jarls get together (and he usually gets his way, which makes him fairly close to them having a king... but not quite). These minotaurs live peaceably with the nearby humans, for the most part (as much as humans get along with each other, anyway), and have even hired-out as mercenaries from time to time. Considering the plethora of truly evil 'monsters' in other mountains in the regions (especially the Yehimals), they are considered 'good neighbors', and a great 'buffer zone' between the human countries and the 'forces of evil' in the region.
Originally, I was going to say my homebrew city of San Taur turned into Esbrech (which is a canon settlement with no lore). I came up with the name 'San Taur' because I had originally called it 'Sanctuary', and I literally only had to erase two letters to create the name (I planned to use the city of Sanctuary from the Thieves World setting). The 'taur' in the name then gave me the idea for some lore about a minotaur hero once saving the townsfolk from a pirate raid, and then the minotaurs in the region just grew out of that (all because I altered a name so as to not step on another IP). Now San Taur is a small town working on becoming a large one, and has no connection to Esbresh, other than Esbresh being a far-southern outpost of Ulgarth, and the place where trade sometimes passes through from the Utter East (the little bit that goes by land). It's a human town, and I kept that history I created intact, and now minotaur 'barbarians' are welcome in the town to trade, and a few even live there. So not really a minotaur settlement by any stretch of the imagination, but enough are there for outsiders to maybe get that impression. Minotaurs can be hired there as ship crew, soldiers, whatever. Many young 'taurs earn fame & fortune in this manner, before returning home to find a mate. And if you wanted to deal directly with the minotaur 'nation', you would have to contact them first in Esbresh (there is a tavern - The Bull's Horn - that acts like their 'embassy', of sorts).
They do not like - nor live with any - of the large, brutish kind. In fact, many of those are part of the monster Kingdom of Nix, and they have been fighting-off attacks from them for centuries (Nix's King Redfang insists they join him, but they refuse). About a dozen or so Sllaviul minotaurs have made it all the way to Waterdeep (after hiring on as ship-crew), and they command very high prices as 'escorts' into Undermountain. The minotaurs natural ability to navigate labyrinths comes in MIGHTY handy, and many adventurers consider it worth the price hiring them to accompany them. At least one can be found at any time drinking at the Yawning Portal, looking for work. Thus far, every single foray the minotaurs have made, they've come back from (but perhaps not the rest of the party... no-one knows for sure). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2018 19:56:41 |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 09:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
Has there been any movement on this in the past year and a half? I'm highly interested in how/ a minotaur society fits in on Faerun
Within the past year you will find another thread where we were discussing the concept of a minotaur culture.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21259
There isn't one necessarily in Faerun, except possibly down in Veldorn. However, a fellow Candlekeep author wrote a DM's Guild products based upon the idea of a non-canon group of minotaurs in the stonelands. There is a canon race of minotaur LIKE beings known as Baphotaurs.
I saw that, I was just really digging this lore that ShadowJack had with the Minotaurs escaping captivity with the help of the elves who would call upon them later for a favor, then bringing the gnomes... really fit well with the random happenstance that one of the players in my campaign wanted to play a minotaur and another wanted to play a gnome.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Baphometian cult. Minotaur "cities" would be gigantic mazes where the natives can exploit their natural cunning while visitors need (paid-off) guides and prey need prayers.
They're simply not the types to build cities. Dragonlance minotaurs are about as relevant to minotaur debates as gully dwarves are to dwarves in general.
Honestly, it seems as though you didnt even bother to take the time to read the rest of the thread. Im interested in the content provided in this thread that started 12 years ago in 2006, which had a ton of thought and discussion that went into it. You seem to just want to passive aggressively state that no one elses opinion on the matter is relevant, so i'm going to chose to ignore yours.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On a sidenote, one of the cultures I'm introducing in Katashaka is Yithakar, the Empire of the Earth Emperor. In this culture I'm putting in Yak-Men, minotaurs, ibixians (goat folk), manotaurs (tauric bull men), ibixotaur (tauric goat folk... not bariaur, as their faces are goat-like.. and these beings will be size medium and live in the mountains), nyalaaku (a large tauric folk with various antelope colorations and horn types... see pictures of Eland, Nyala, Kudu, gazelle, and wildebeast for examples). This group will worship demon cults (Baphomet, Orcus, and Eltab) and similar beings such as Gargauth at the upper echelons of power. They may also worship the archomentals (princes of elemental evil). They also worship some non-evil deities such as the goat headed Egyptian god Khnum (lord of rivers, fertile soil, male virility and pottery) and the cow headed Egyptian goddess Hathor (goddess of family, female fertility, and childbirth).
Ok I follow you on this, and indeed I like where you're going with it but, how civilized are they and, my biggest question... why on earth would they worship Gargauth? Doesn't seem like it would fit his portfolio at all, except than BECAUSE of his portfolio he could, potentially have any reason for reaching out to them based on his goals... but, that would indicate he had ulterior motives for... ¿manipulating? them.
((as you can see by my avatar... big Gargauth fan here)) |
Edited by - Tigon on 14 Feb 2018 11:52:13 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 15:17:20
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You asked about how a minotaur society fits in Faerun, not for anything specific. Minotaurs are usually chaotic evil and generally worship Baphomet.
I can buy neutral minotaurs, but I'd think that a group of neutral minotaurs would generally stay away from most civilized areas in the Realms unless working as mercenaries. Like drow, minotaurs are usually evil; unlike drow, they don't have a racial deity of good like Eilistraae. Where Eilistraaen drow can and do build enclaves, minotaurs don't seem to have any real inclination towards large-scale cooperation unless being bullied into it by someone stronger. They also only have Int 7, so long-term planning isn't something I'd expect from minotaurs as a whole.
With regard to Krynnish minotaurs, the reason I'm not including them with common D&D minotaurs is that they're technically not D&D minotaurs. For one, they're not monstrous humanoids (they're humanoid [minotaur]) and they don't have darkvision. They're also smarter (-2 Int vs the standard -4 Int of normal minotaurs). |
Edited by - LordofBones on 14 Feb 2018 15:18:41 |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 16:19:27
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
You asked about how a minotaur society fits in Faerun, not for anything specific. Minotaurs are usually chaotic evil and generally worship Baphomet.
I can buy neutral minotaurs, but I'd think that a group of neutral minotaurs would generally stay away from most civilized areas in the Realms unless working as mercenaries. Like drow, minotaurs are usually evil; unlike drow, they don't have a racial deity of good like Eilistraae. Where Eilistraaen drow can and do build enclaves, minotaurs don't seem to have any real inclination towards large-scale cooperation unless being bullied into it by someone stronger. They also only have Int 7, so long-term planning isn't something I'd expect from minotaurs as a whole.
With regard to Krynnish minotaurs, the reason I'm not including them with common D&D minotaurs is that they're technically not D&D minotaurs. For one, they're not monstrous humanoids (they're humanoid [minotaur]) and they don't have darkvision. They're also smarter (-2 Int vs the standard -4 Int of normal minotaurs).
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon
Has there been any movement on this in the past year and a half? I'm highly interested in how/ a minotaur society fits in on Faerun
Actually, i asked if there had been any movement on this in the past year. This thread. Sorry if that wasnt clear, but I thought it was obvious posting for an update on a 7 page, and 12 year old thread, that goes into not only ideas about a minotaur society (not cannon mind you), but also details about not only named champions of the tribe, a back story and timeline in the realms about the tribe escaping enslavement from the giant tribes with the help of some elves, wherein the minotaurs settle around the lake of steam, and then the elves come calling on them to honor their ancient agreement and harbor/protect some gnomes who were escaping the Netheril as well as an artifact. See details below from page 3 of this thread.
To be clear, im specifically asking if there was any movement on this thread/story arc. I sent the OP (ShadowJack)a private message but I apparently dont have enough posts on the forum yet to send them an email and was hoping one of the others who were active in the original discussion would chime in. I had one of the players in a brand new campaign im starting want to be a gnome while another wanted to play a minotaur and I randomly stumbled upon this thread which just so happened to fit so I was looking to see if any more details/more recent events had been added or if i needed to take it from here.
that might have been obvious with a review of the thread before a snarky response about gully dwarves.
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Well Met and Good Day, Noble Sages!
I have been working on details/timeline (rough) of our minotaur hero (here after referred to as Ketor; name subject to change) I will post this in sections so it will not be too long. I ask for your opinions and help in correcting any mistakes or conflicts...
-6000 A splinter/remnant of Ostoria has been in existence for several hundred years on the present day Thayan Plateau. The giants of this small realm are few in number and rule it with an iron hand. Despite constant pressure from numerous foes, the kingdom has persisted, due in large part to the huge numbers of minotaurs that serve the Giants as troops. A large population of gnolls are also used as cannon fodder by the giant rulers of the kingdom. There is constant fighting between the minotaurs and gnolls.
-5500 Due to attrition, the minotaur population has steadily declined, they now number seriously less than the gnolls that are there neighbors. Gnolls are gaining more prestige with giant rulers due to their larger numbers.
-5300 Ketor, a minotaur leader, gains notice of minotaurs and Giant Rulers alike, due to his large size, great wisdom and strength. Under his leadership the minotaurs are winning every battle they engage in for their giant masters. Ketor is alarmed by the cost (in lives)to his people. The gnolls cease hostilites, largely out of fear of Ketor's leadership.
-5295 Ketor appeals to his giant masters for a reprieve from the fighting. He asks for time for the minotaurs to rebuild strength. The giant Lords refuse and order him north to attack hobgoblin tribes. After they are killed or driven off the minotaurs are to attack into the Auldgloam and seize elven cities. The minotaurs will be the spearhead and the gnolls will follow behind to clean up.
-5294 Bound by his peoples oath of service to the Giant Kings of the realm, Ketor leads his people north and engages the hobgoblins. They win every battle, but the losses are higher than expected. The minotaur groups split over the casualties. Several large bands of minotaurs break their oaths and leave in the night. Eventually, these groups enter the Underdark to hide from their enemies and former masters. These minotaurs are referred to by the Ketoran Minotaurs as the "Shamed" and the event as the "Shame". The minotaurs as a fighting force are now greatly weakened.
-5293 Saddened by the schism in his people and further losses to the numerous (but retreating) hobgoblins, Ketor stops short of invading the Auldgloam. He claims he is taking time to regroup his forces and await the gnoll legions, but, actually, he has received a vision in his dreams; the minotaurs destruction is inevitable if they enter the Auldgloam. This vision is delivered by a bloodied and crippled human surrounded by a glowing light. Ketor secures his position and, with a few of his great warleaders, returns to the Thayan Plateau to report to his masters. He shares his vision with them and asks that his people be withdrawn from the attack on the elves. The giants are outraged, a fight ensues, Ketor's warleaders are killed and he is seriously wounded. Ketor escapes from the Giants Stronghold. He is close to death and collapses... The giant lords dispatch one of their own to take command of the minotaurs and proceeed with the attack on the Auldgloam.
more later...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 17:32:49
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I think ShadowJack has moved on to other things; it looks like he's not been here since 2009.
It's a pity, too, because I was really digging the ideas we had going on, here. It's crossed my mind once or twice since then to dust off the discussion and do something with it, but my free time is not copious and I'm easily distracted by bright and shiny objects. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 18:43:29
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Well, last I heard GK was working on some UE history, so it might be fun for him to incorporate (and finish) that timeline above. What have we got so far? I've been reading back through the thread, and I'm only on pg.2 (I'll edit this post as I go along), but we have...
1) The group in The Labyrinth Underdark
2) Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.
3) My Group in the Sllaviul Mountains on the southern border of Ulgarth.
4) Gray's group in the Silverwood.
5) A proposed group for the Thayan Plateau (although, with recent - and not so recent - events, one might want to put them on the other side of the Sunrise Mountains. There is a bump-in in those mountains from the Taan side, halfway between Beacon Cairn and Citadel Rashemar on old maps that would be a good place where the plateau continues on the far side of those mountains.
8) 'Keltorn', in the Qurth Forest, in the Border kingdoms
7) A possible group of them in Katshaka (although my own ideas for Kata run in another direction).
Notes: Considering other lore in the Moonsea East region (a citystate that got collapsed into the Underdark by Drow) would indicate to me that there is a major network of tunnels & caves going on in the southern Galenas, and if minotaurs are still in the region (and I don't see why there can't be - its a 'dead spot' lore-wise, and there are literally hundreds of miles of uncharted mountains), they've probably either been mostly enslaved by the drow (who may have come from elsewhere themselves), or are in hiding from them, or some combination (an on-going war that they've been steadily losing for centuries). Considering the nature of those mountains (I don't think they were 'always' there), and that they have Bloodstone, it would be an interesting region to imagine a large surface population of creatures that are normally hidden below - a 'city of monsters', if you will).
EDIT: I am actually picturing something very much like Skullport, but actually ON the Moonsea itself. It could even be a place where many of the Zhents fled to after their own city was destroyed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2018 01:03:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 19:40:44
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I went over this discussion earlier, myself, and find myself once more dwelling on the divine concerns we'd previously addressed.
We had pretty much agreed on the former leader of our minotaurs becoming a demipower, but we never got anywhere on who his divine sponsor was. Me, I favor Torm, but the timing was wrong for that.
I'm kinda thinking that the determination to watch over themselves could be enough of an angle to make a case for Helm having been Keltor's sponsor, but it's a bit of a stretch, and I don't know about the timing.
It also occurs to me that the sponsor could have been someone who has since fallen; Keltor may have since had to switch to a new divine sponsor.
(I randomly just thought of Auppenser; maybe Keltor was a psionicist? I'd need to recheck the timing and re-read about Auppenser; I suggested minotaurs, strength, determination, self-rule, and independence, originally, which may or may not fit well with Auppenser. Admittedly, I have a fondness for psionics) |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 00:46:52
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| I started collating all the history and notes from the original work ShadowJack did last night. I'll post it up tonight once i have it organized |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 01:15:49
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Good. I was going to do that as well - I see ShadowJack added more to the timeline than what was posted above. Now I can go back to mapping. LOL
Some of that would have conflicted with my own conversion of the Elsir Vale Material into the Chondath Vale (because IT IS the same damn place), but only because of the later-added Overlook material, which wasn't even internally consistent with the rest of the AP. I have since move the Overlook portions of the AP south on my main maps, and when I get to that region with my main Mapping project, It will show the 'corrected' version, which will NOT interfere with the Border Kingdom and other lore.
The Overlook stuff had hordes of Orcs to the NW, which, when applied to an FR map, put those 'hordes' inside the Border kingdoms - that was a fairly big problem for me (actually, the entire AP had those humanoids to the NW, which just doesn't work). We could have made it work on the older 1e/2e maps, because we had so much more room (although 'orc hordes' sandwiched between human realms seems a bit odd, especially in empty plains), and although we've gotten all that terrain back now, I am going to keep Overlook to the southwest, rather than the northwest, where its a better fit up against the Bandit Wastes.
So why bring all of that up? Because humanoids tend to live Underground, and that would be a little rough having them near the Minotaurs (or the entirety of the Border Kingdoms, for that matter). We also have giants in the nearby Firesteep Mountains (at the very edge of the Border Kingdoms). Now those humaoids aren't a problem for ANY of the lore - canon FR (Border Kingdoms) or anything we do here or elsewhere.
There is another conversion project I was working on, and I can slip all of this into that, come to think of it. I had to detail a a portion of the BK anyway. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2018 02:21:44 |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 01:24:39
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| Yah I'm going to be doing a bunch of consolidating of notes regarding this topic and the Gargauth topic i started in the next few days. I realized that i kinda went ham about Gargauth with speculations in a forum area intended for canon discussion only so I'm going to go correct that and make a point from here out to make sure im posting everything in the right forums. As i said ill habe updates in the next 24-48 hours |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 02:42:15
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Is the Quarth forest really optimal? I am thinking the Duskwood would probably be a lot better - less 'central', and also closer to the Firesteap mountains. On my maps, I actually have quite bit more hills and mountains to the west of that N/S road there (The Golden Road running through Innarlith. On THIS MAP you can see the hills there - 'The Shieldmaidens'. And that map use the now defunct 3e geography - there is actually quite a lot more hills (and mountains) there now that we've gotten more land back.
I had to raise up that entire end of the Lake of Steam otherwise the Nagaflow didn't make any sense - water only 'turns' when it runs into an obstacle. Without lots of hills in the region, that river should have dumped right into the LoS. I am assuming there was a significant mountain range in that area before whatever made the Lake of Steam blew it to smithereens (because that's another shallow-impact crater - an object traveled east-to-west - The Almraiver range was 'pushed up' at the end there). Not to mention there is a VERY good reason those Beholders are all over those Mountains - they were IN the object that hit.
So anyhow, those hills - The Shieldmaidens - would be a good 'underneath' place for them, with the Duskwood right there, and they'd be on the edge rather than the middle of the Border Kingdoms (and near giants, if we wanted to pull them in). The hills could also be a great place to find rare minerals, like starsilver and such, which could be how the minotaurs are surviving, money-wise (especially if you are involving greedy little gnomes). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2018 02:43:41 |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 07:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Is the Quarth forest really optimal? I am thinking the Duskwood would probably be a lot better - less 'central', and also closer to the Firesteap mountains. On my maps, I actually have quite bit more hills and mountains to the west of that N/S road there (The Golden Road running through Innarlith. On THIS MAP you can see the hills there - 'The Shieldmaidens'. And that map use the now defunct 3e geography - there is actually quite a lot more hills (and mountains) there now that we've gotten more land back.
I had to raise up that entire end of the Lake of Steam otherwise the Nagaflow didn't make any sense - water only 'turns' when it runs into an obstacle. Without lots of hills in the region, that river should have dumped right into the LoS. I am assuming there was a significant mountain range in that area before whatever made the Lake of Steam blew it to smithereens (because that's another shallow-impact crater - an object traveled east-to-west - The Almraiver range was 'pushed up' at the end there). Not to mention there is a VERY good reason those Beholders are all over those Mountains - they were IN the object that hit.
So anyhow, those hills - The Shieldmaidens - would be a good 'underneath' place for them, with the Duskwood right there, and they'd be on the edge rather than the middle of the Border Kingdoms (and near giants, if we wanted to pull them in). The hills could also be a great place to find rare minerals, like starsilver and such, which could be how the minotaurs are surviving, money-wise (especially if you are involving greedy little gnomes).
I'm not married to Quarth forest or Lake of Steam was just going with what had been outlined thus far in the thread. Hoping to have collation of this thread complete and posted tonight. |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 07:09:30
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==Rough timeline thus far==
-10400 DR
Dark elves of Clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) from Ilythiir, guided by the hand of the balor Wendonai. They construct an underground fortress named Narathmault [-10000], "the Dark Pit," at the site of present-day Dun-Tharos, recognizing it as a place of great evil.
-10000 DR
Descent of the Drow:
Corellon’s magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weakesses that banish them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two months’ passing into the Underdark.
-Elves are summoned by the Seldarine to the site that becomes the Elven Court one month after the Descent of the Drow, to settle differences and restore peace among the elves.
-Like their kin elsewhere, the dark elves of Narathmault [-10400, -9750] are transformed into drow by the will of the Seldarine, shattering their bindings over a host of fiends who swiftly turn on their former masters. Led by Undrek of Clan Sethomiir, the drow and their minotaur servants are forced to flee Narathmault, traveling south and east into the underground caverns beneath the present-day Plateau of Thay.
-6000 A splinter/remnant of Ostoria has been in existence for several hundred years on the present day Thayan Plateau. The giants of this small realm are few in number and rule it with an iron hand. Despite constant pressure from numerous foes, the kingdom has persisted, due in large part to the huge numbers of minotaurs that serve the Giants as troops. A large population of gnolls are also used as cannon fodder by the giant rulers of the kingdom. There is constant fighting between the minotaurs and gnolls.
-5500 Due to attrition, the minotaur population has steadily declined, they now number seriously less than the gnolls that are there neighbors. Gnolls are gaining more prestige with giant rulers due to their larger numbers.
-5300 Ketor, a minotaur leader, gains notice of minotaurs and Giant Rulers alike, due to his large size, great wisdom and strength. Under his leadership the minotaurs are winning every battle they engage in for their giant masters. Ketor is alarmed by the cost (in lives)to his people. The gnolls cease hostilites, largely out of fear of Ketor's leadership.
-5295 Ketor appeals to his giant masters for a reprieve from the fighting. He asks for time for the minotaurs to rebuild strength. The giant Lords refuse and order him north to attack hobgoblin tribes. After they are killed or driven off the minotaurs are to attack into the Auldgloam and seize elven cities. The minotaurs will be the spearhead and the gnolls will follow behind to clean up.
-5294 Bound by his peoples oath of service to the Giant Kings of the realm, Ketor leads his people north and engages the hobgoblins. They win every battle, but the losses are higher than expected. The minotaur groups split over the casualties. Several large bands of minotaurs break their oaths and leave in the night. Eventually, these groups enter the Underdark to hide from their enemies and former masters. These minotaurs are referred to by the Ketoran Minotaurs as the "Shamed" and the event as the "Shame". The minotaurs as a fighting force are now greatly weakened.
-5293 Saddened by the schism in his people and further losses to the numerous (but retreating) hobgoblins, Ketor stops short of invading the Auldgloam. He claims he is taking time to regroup his forces and await the gnoll legions, but, actually, he has received a vision in his dreams; the minotaurs destruction is inevitable if they enter the Auldgloam. This vision is delivered by a bloodied and crippled human surrounded by a glowing light. Ketor secures his position and, with a few of his great warleaders, returns to the Thayan Plateau to report to his masters. He shares his vision with them and asks that his people be withdrawn from the attack on the elves. The giants are outraged, a fight ensues, Ketor's warleaders are killed and he is seriously wounded. Ketor escapes from the Giants Stronghold. He is close to death and collapses... The giant lords dispatch one of their own to take command of the minotaurs and proceeed with the attack on the Auldgloam.
As Ketor lays dying an unknown deity appears to him and heals his wounds. This deity says he has seen the honor with which Ketor's people have endured their bondage to the giants. This deity wishes to aid the minotaurs. Ketor agrees to serve the deity forever and renounce giant deities and Baphomet in return for help. The deity takes Ketor to a large elven city in the Auldgloam. Ketor offers to lead his minotaur army away without attacking if the elves will aid their escape. The elven Coronal agrees with one condition; the minotaurs agree to perform some service for the elven people if ever they should ask. Ketor reluctantly agrees. Ketor returns to his people and tells them of his agreement with the deity and the elves. Most of the minotaurs agree as a large force of giant-led gnolls is approaching. The minority priests of Baphomet are displeased but agree to follow.
The gnolls are ready to attack with overwhelming numbers when Ketor challenges the giant leader to combat. Armed with a magical axe and powerful abilities from the deity, Ketor defeats the giant and his people force the gnolls to retreat enough to give them a chance at escape. True to their word, the elves lead the minotaurs into the Auldgloam to a large gate. Ketor leads his people through the gate to an old ruined city in the Firesteap mountains. For the next thousand years ketor leads his people in a nomadic journey from place to place at the direction of his patron deity. The minotaurs support themselves as mercenaries.
-4300 DR The Death of Ketor
The minoyaurs wander into the area of the Qurth Forest. Hunting parties find a large, easily defended clearing in the midst of the woods. Ketor leads his people into the woods to rest and regroup from their wanderings. Using this time of peace to their advantage, the followers of Baphomet, a small, but powerful faction in the minotaur tribes, attempts to assasinate Ketor and his strongest supporters. By this time Ketor is revered by most of his people as a god. The High Priest of Baphomet, imbued with powers from his god, attacks Ketor. Ketor slays the priest of Baphomet in a day long battle using the powers and magical axe given to him by his patron deity. The followers of Baphomet are routed out of the tribes with the survivors fleeing into the Underdark, just as the "shamed" did before them. Ketor is weakened and seriously wounded to the point of death. His last act is to appoint a Warleader in his place. The grieving minotaurs build a huge cairn over the body of their leader and place his magical axe and armor with him. The next thousand years see the minotaurs migrating back to the Qurth Forest every ten years to honor Ketor. By this time Ketor is venerated as their patron god. These minotaur tribes are led by the Priests of Ketor and an appointed Warleader.
-4400 DR Raising of the Temple and founding of the city of Ketorn.
The High Priest of Ketor recieves a vision from Ketor. He leads the minotaurs back to the site of his deities mortal death. Once there he instructs the people to build a temple to Ketor. Using many of the stones from the cairn a massive temple is begun to honor Ketor.
-4280 DR The temple is completed. In the final ceremony, Ketor's remains and armor are interred in maze/catacombs beneath the temple. The magical axe (Bardiche, magic abilities? stats?) gifted to Ketor is given to the warleader as a sign of Ketor's favor. During this time a small city grows up around the temple, it is named Ketorn to honor their deity. The minotaurs hunt, farm a little and continue to hire out as mercenaries. The minotaurs are very isolationist and allow no visitors to their city. Its existence is almost unknown.
next the Elves return...
-3144 The small city of Ketorn has continued to thrive and maintain its relative isolation within the expanse of the Qurth Forest. Companies of Minotaur mercenaries are hired from as far away as Mir(Tethyr), the Jhaamdath(Vilhon Reach) and of course, Calimshan.
The minotaurs are shocked when their isolation is broken by the appearance of a large, well-armed band of Moon Elves approaches the gates and demands to see the Warleader and High Priest of Ketor. The warleader assembles a warband of minotaurs to drive them off, but, is stopped by the High Priest before any hostilities ensue. The High Priest has the elves escorted to the Temple where they remain for two days. Early on the third day the elves depart as quickly as they appeared. Minotaur rangers follow them as far as old ruins in a wwild section of the forest.
Several months later the elves return, escorting a group of 200 gnomes; escaped slaves from Nehteril. The gnomes are brought into the city whereupon the High Priest reminds the puzzled minotaurs of the ancient promise that Ketor made with the elves. Minotaur craftsmen help the gnomes construct the Burrow Quarter of Ketorn. Rumors abound of a powerful magic that the gnomes brought with them, and the elves would prefer kept secret, that is hidden in the bowels of Ketor's Temple.
-3133 to 1311
Ketorn remains largley unknown outside of the Qurth Forest, due to its isolation and gnomish illusions. The city continues to grow with the main exports being mercenaries. As both gnome and minotaur populations increase there is increased pressure on the Warleader and the High Priest to allow trade with neighboring cities. For centuries this reuest is denied.
1325
After years of debate, the High Priest of Ketor tells the people of Ketorn that their god has told him them to rejoin the world around them. Many are puzzled by this sudden reversal of policy. Gnome craftsmen are elated. Late in this year, the first group of gnome merchants leaves the city and finds ready buyers for Minotuar maze-pattern cloth and gnomish metal goods, cut gems and wood carvings.
***NEXT POST - collated rough notes to digest and discuss |
Edited by - Tigon on 15 Feb 2018 07:29:21 |
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Tigon
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 08:11:52
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**Ive bolded, struck out and underlined some key points i want to call out. Ive also put in my own notes in various places and have tried to bold all of them and tag them with **
As for their origins, lets just skirt that issue... After all, many of the Realms inhabitants are transplants from other planes/prime material lands... I would like to avoid any inclination of an evil origin...
Walker, I agree with you that the issue of their reclusiveness needs to be addressed. I was thinking of explaining it by a cultural/social taboo given them by their Hero/demi-god to avoid entangling themselves in the affairs of other races, so as not to draw the attention of the giants they were once forced to serve... (this is a little weak)
I like the idea brought up by Walker of the different types of bovines from different areas. This could be interesting. The Lake of Steam Minotaurs, whenever they come into contact with these other breeds/types, especially if slaves, do their best to free them from their bondage and transplant them back to the Lake of Steam city... This could be one reason for the city (Minotopia? sorry, had to be said... talk about bad names or puns) becoming more well known, the population has increased due to natural births and transplanting other minotaurs from across Faerun. This increase has put pressure on the Herd Elders (sorry) to find a release for the excess young bulls (hot bloods). Namely, hire them out as mercenaries, but only under the immediate control of minotaur commanders...
>>Well, I think George's original idea about the plateaus of Thay is definitely a good place >>to start. And it's isolated enough so that it doesn't have to have an immediate impact upon >>the "heart" of the Realms setting itself -- doing away with messy questions about "why this >>minotaur nation was never discovered or mentioned previously".
Actually, given that Thay's plateau was populated by some less than honorable centaurs, a horde of gnolls, many orc refugees from the orcgate wars, and had a neighboring country of star elves.... minotaurs would definitely seem to fit in. However, despite their strength, maybe they were being overwhelmed by numbers, and thus they dug into the plateaus and developed trapped mazes to protect their villages (but would come out to raid for food, etc..).
So, Our minotaur having been forced to take part in these numerous conflicts on behalf of the giants, decide they are done. They strike a deal with dwarves?, not likely, Elves?, possible, In return for not following orders and attacking an elven settlement/kingdom, they strike a deal. The elves allow them use of a gate that transports them a great distance. The minotaurs wander for several hundred years (nomadic)supporting themselves through mercenary endeavors. Finally, they find the remains of a (maze-like) city on the southern coast of the Lake of Steam, drive off the (true) monsters and set up shop. Several hundred years after that they are shocked when a group of gnomes shows up in their midst with an elven escort, calling in a favor from the minotaurs past. The gnomes are escaped slaves from Netheril being helped to escape by the elves. (read on the Wizard's website, somewhere... About old elven gates) The minotaurs, being honorable, agree to take them in. What happens next is surprising as a strong symbiotic relationship occurs... and persists to this day...
Hmmm... It's rough, but I like the idea.
I don't know that the ruined city needs to be maze-like, or even needs to exist at all. It could have been that the minotaurs broke up into groups, not unlike tribes. They picked a convenient/designated spot for meetings and trade, and, as time passed, that spot grew into a city as the minotaurs became less nomadic.
The spot could even be where their leader died or was buried. First it became a shrine, then it became a temple as the city formed around it... Going with this angle, the temple would be near the center of the town, and the clergy would be an important part of the government.
I like the idea of the city being the spot where their leader died. The idea of the clergy being central to their government is excellent. These older clergy, the wisest in the various tribes, are the elders that direct the daily affairs of their culture. To keep it from being a total theocracy, there is also a "Warleader". The greatest, most well-liked warrior of the city. It is his task to carry on the spirit and ideals of the original Hero/Leader. In a way the clergy/elders are the legislature and the warleader is the executive. The temple also serves as the government seat with an assembly hall.
So, that having been said, I gotta ask... What do ya'll think about the gnomes being included in this? (Be kind) I like the gnomes...
the maze thing I am suggesting only because it is part of their stats in all the books. It also sets them apart more from the other races...
What if the gnomes managed to get their hands on ¿some artifact?(original notes state it as one section of the Nether Scrolls, but was later rebuttled against this) The elves, get them out of Netheril, but, for some reason, do not want to take possession of the scroll artifact. The elves remember the minotaurs debt to their ancestors and call in the favor with the minotaurs. Take in these refugees, for a while, keep them and the Nether Scroll artifact safe for a period of 100 years??? After this time your debt to us (the elves) is paid in full.The clergy/elders, because of their deities mythos, see guarding the Scroll as a sacred duty, and agree. What happens is the Minotaurs find that the gnome's skills with various things is beneficial. The gnomes provide armor, weapons?, alchemical substances, and magic. Some gnome mages even hire out with the mercenary bands, providing magical fire power. The minotaurs know how to fight, farm and maybe, some construction, the gnomes provide very useful items that aid their lives. The city is not well known because of illusionary magic that the gnomes employed to keep it hidden from the minotaurs ancient enemies, the frost giants???, who occasionally come looking for them, and did so not long after the gnomes are taken in... The Scroll is placed in "maze-like" catacombs beneath the temple, where it remains guarded by secrecy, gnome magic and minotaur might...
Sorry so long...
Now we just need an appropriate deity... I have no giant sourcebooks, any ideas?
I'm reading thru the Border Kingdoms section of Power of Faerûn. In my opinion, Qurth Forest is a good locale (rethinking locale) for our minotaur city-state (Ketorn, named after Ketor?). I'd put it inside the forest, and say that the reason no one knew of it was because the minotaurs followed a fairly isolationist policy. Other than gnomish farmers and minotaurs sent out to act as mercs, they kept their contact with the outside world to a minimum.
Another notation: after reading the article on Baphomet, I also like the idea of a religious schism. I'd say that sometime after fleeing the giants, a group of Baphomet worshippers started causing trouble, leading to a civil war. The Baphomet-followers lost, and either fled or were forced into the Underdark. The other group stuck around, becoming the city-state we're talking about.
It's even possible that the schism was brewing before the minotaurs fled the giant kingdoms. Ketor could have been mortally wounded in his victory over Baphomet's high priest, which became part of the legend that led to his deification.
Awesome idea! The schism would account for the Underdark minotaurs and also Ketor's death! I just picked up Power of Faerun (which I had decided not to buy, until I heard there was Border Kingdom info in it...) I wondered how this would affect the minotaur idea... I like the idea of having them in the Qurth Forest. Their isolation is aided by gnomish illusion. Where was the article on Baphomet? I am eagerly awaiting more info from Ed on WotC website dealing with the Border Kingdoms. What better place to hire out minotaur mercenaries? If anyone is interested I will post the next segment of the timeline, with Wooly's new ideas incorporated. Let me know, I do not want to be a bore...
You might also check out the vestiges in Pact Magic. There's some hint there that Thrym had something to do with the initial creation of Minotaurs. I think it even mentions Annam (book isn't here), so with that name it might be considered Canon. **pending fact checking
An idea that occurs to me: perhaps there is a system of naturally-occurring caverns under and near this citystate. This would allow for underground farming of mushrooms and edible fungi, and for the grazing of Underdark rothé. This additional foodsource would mean less surface ground had to go to food production, helping keep the city hidden.**i like the idea of the underground cavern, also that the maze structure could be there. not sure if minotaurs really eat fungi though.
As long as there's adequate defenses, and the minotaurs take steps to ensure the caverns remain a secret (the caverns themselves may have at some point in their history... connected to the rest of the Underdark), that would certainly go aways toward keeping the minotaur city-state safe and completely self-sufficient.
The tough spot I had in writing this Minotaur history was the issue of which deity sponsored Ketor and raised him to Demi-power status? Torm would be excellent but is too modern in Realms history/lore. I thought Ilmater would be a good choice as he has been around the Realms for a long time and was drawn to the minotaurs suffering and perseverance through it all. Thinking of other Realms deities that are ancient in the Realms I thought of Selune and Lathander. Lathander could work as part of his new beginnings/starts portfolio. Selune would be cool because I think she is the neatest Realm's deity... Give me your thoughts, please.
Sage, are some of your ideas related to this topic?
As for the deity, it could be a fallen or now subsumed deity...
I found a couple of bits in the Grand History of the Realms that I think need to be considered, when doing the history of this city-state. From page 15 of that source, emphasis mine:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.
**Resource needed, originally posted link no longer works
As I recall, that's the first mention of Grong-Haap. Brian established that ancient realm for his "Moonsea" article.
I'll note further that some descendants of Grong-Haap still exist -- living in small clans beneath the Great Gray Land of Thar.
And can anyone think of a good reason why a minotaur nation could not be in unclaimed political region between Turmish, the Dragon Coast and the Shining Plains? It looks like a heavily forested mountainous region with access to the coast, which could be home to a nation similar to the Minotaurs of Kyrnn. Any obvious geographical or historical issues with this concept?
That area sounds plausible. We, were however trying to keep similarities between our Realms minotaurs and the DL minotaurs as few as possible. Heavy forests and mountains would be a good area for a minotaur kingdom.
Brian,
I will check this article out! Sounds like we could tie our minotaur culture in with existing Realms lore and create a whole history of minotaurs in the Realms.
Wooly,
What are you thinking about with the descent of the drow? Has there ever been a more evil group than the ancient Illythiiri? Every time some mention is made of them in a novel or source book these forebears of the drow just seem more mysterious and evil than any other... Perhaps they are the root cause of the giant kingdoms instability? The masters pulling the strings of their giant puppets, urging the giants to attack their elven adversaries... The giants were the tool the fallen elves used to strike back at the Seldarine...
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally don't like the idea of minotaur sailors. As I've pointed out before, can you imagine how strong the rigging would have to be to support them?
Fair point but those bad boys can't half row!
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Wooly,
What are you thinking about with the descent of the drow? Has there ever been a more evil group than the ancient Illythiiri? Every time some mention is made of them in a novel or source book these forebears of the drow just seem more mysterious and evil than any other... Perhaps they are the root cause of the giant kingdoms instability? The masters pulling the strings of their giant puppets, urging the giants to attack their elven adversaries... The giants were the tool the fallen elves used to strike back at the Seldarine...
Well, basically, without getting into the giant kingdoms or anything, that reference gives us minotaurs already in the right general area.
While we could keep the giant kingdoms origin and then add in something with this other group, I favor sticking to existing lore as much as possible. So if it was entirely up to me, the origins of this city-state would be with this group that we already have in that general area.
** i whole heartedly agree, id like to stick as close to canon as possible
So does this incarnation of a minotaur nation hark back to the time when giants and dragons rules the realms? Or is it more recent than that?
Well, I am embarrassed, I read through that passage you posted two times, and each time I have missed the key phrase "their minotaur servants". This puts minotaurs in the Thayan plateau area and makes the timeline more plausible... So, instead of the giants we could use this group of dark elves... This would explain why the Ketorn minotaurs avoided the UnderDark; they were staying away from their former masters... Don't hold back Wooly, tell me how you see this working out. Should we just ditch the giant tie in all together?
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Well, I am embarrassed, I read through that passage you posted two times, and each time I have missed the key phrase "their minotaur servants". This puts minotaurs in the Thayan plateau area and makes the timeline more plausible... So, instead of the giants we could use this group of dark elves... This would explain why the Ketorn minotaurs avoided the UnderDark; they were staying away from their former masters... Don't hold back Wooly, tell me how you see this working out. Should we just ditch the giant tie in all together?
It's prolly easier to totally dump the giant connection. While it was a good idea, it involved spinning lore into a totally blank space. Going with the drow connection, though, means we're simply extrapolating on known lore. **agree.
I think it also allows us to borrow an idea from the Riftwar books... See, in those books, part of the elven backstory is that the two major elven races, the elves (eledhel) and the dark elves (moredhel, or the Brotherhood of the Dark Path) are physically one race -- the only physical differences tend to be in hair color, and that's not even universal. And it's possible for an elf to become a moredhel, and vice-versa.
The reason the two races are different goes back thousands of years, to when a race of godlike beings, the Valheru, ruled the world. The elves (all types) were their slaves. The eledhel were generally left tending to the forests, while the moredhel were more often directly serving the Valheru. So the moredhel were basically tainted by that association. When the Valheru left, the elves said "Yay, we're free!", but the moredhel said "We will reclaim the power of our lost masters!", and continued to visit and hang around places the Valheru had been. So they became some really evil gits (though not as bad as drow), while the elves went the route of common fantasy elves. Some moredhel have thrown off the taint and Returned, becoming eledhel, but there have also been some elves that fell and joined the Dark Brothers. Moredhel and eledhel can distinguish between the races on sight, but any other race is going to have to rely on where they are and what the elf-type is doing.
Anyway, our civilized minotaurs could have split off and shunned their former masters, but some of them could have relished their former status as paid bullies and favored servants. So the latter group could still hang out in the Underdark and be happily savage, while the others tried to better themselves.
Oh, and as an aside, the name "Ketorn" just doesn't work as well for me. I keep wanting to call it "Keltorn", which I like better.
Huh... That's almost exactly the Eberron history of the Elves/Drow being slaves to the Giants before their fall.
How about Kelthorn? I like the idea of getting the word 'horn' in their somehow.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm also going to have to figure out how all of this relates to my own ancient (as in primordial) Minotaur Kingdom I placed in the Utter East (in the mountains). I had tie-ins with the Yakfolk to the South, and also placed Bargda (Ibixian in 3e) - Goatfolk - in the eastern Yehimal region. I had it where all three are were created in ancient times as servitor races of the Rakshasa (living in the Indianesque portions of FR - lower Utter East, the Sempadan, Tempat larang, and the lower K-T/Malatran Jungles).
I've also created a race of half-Minotaurs, called Vogalts, for my homebrew world. basically HUGE Vikings (Firbolgs?), but when they take off their helmets... the horns are still there!
**not sure if i'll personally use any of this piece of content, but im including this here for Mark's sake
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally don't like the idea of minotaur sailors. As I've pointed out before, can you imagine how strong the rigging would have to be to support them?
Spidersilk (with the highest tensile strength known) purchased from the Drow?
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
And can anyone think of a good reason why a minotaur nation could not be in unclaimed political region between Turmish, the Dragon Coast and the Shining Plains?
Yes.
Its called Cormyr.
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Anyway, our civilized minotaurs could have split off and shunned their former masters, but some of them could have relished their former status as paid bullies and favored servants. So the latter group could still hang out in the Underdark and be happily savage, while the others tried to better themselves.
This is certainly a possible interpretation. And it ties in with canon Realmslore rather nicely. We know small numbers of minotaurs have been seen regularly in many slave pens of the Drow Houses of Menzoberranzan -- some of them could be our minotaur savages. Drow would also press slave-minotaurs into battle as foot soldiers when they go to war. And Red Wizards utilise minotaurs as personal bodyguards as well -- so I'm sure some of our civilised minotaurs may have found work elsewhere.
quote:
Oh, and as an aside, the name "Ketorn" just doesn't work as well for me. I keep wanting to call it "Keltorn", which I like better.
I'll agree with this. "Keltorn" is often how I mentally refer to the place.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about Kelthorn? I like the idea of getting the word 'horn' in their somehow.
Good point about spidersilk, it at least sets a pecedent for a material capable of holding an adult minotaurs weight.
I was not talking about Cormyr, but the unclaimed region south of the ragon reach.
I wasn't thinking about pirates in particular, more a small insular nation of minotaurs. Xenophobic and loyalist but recent provocation has caused them to look beyond their own borders.
I am not sure that in 3rd ed the strong race makes good carpenters means good ship builders hence good sailors rational even holds up. It was really a construct of the 2nd ed rules as far as I can tell.
I think if they do use boats they should be viking style ships with significant oar propulsion.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
I am not sure that in 3rd ed the strong race makes good carpenters means good ship builders hence good sailors rational even holds up. It was really a construct of the 2nd ed rules as far as I can tell.
I think if they do use boats they should be viking style ships with significant oar propulsion.
I don't think that even the 2E rules implied any nautical or even woodworking leanings for minotaurs. I think them being sailors was entirely something from Krynn, and the fact they stuck the minotaurs of Ansalon on a couple islands. Even the minotaurs of Taladas weren't as nautically inclined.
Actually, the minotaurs of Taladas have long had a history of nautical inclination. Even before the first Cataclysm.
quote:
I only knew that from playing Alpha Centauri - there's an audio clip when you discover some new tech that says as much.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
I was not talking about Cormyr, but the unclaimed region south of the ragon reach.
After re-reading what I wrote, I realized it might seem a little misleading. What I meant is that Cormyr has a history of not letting anyone else expand their borders anywhere near theirs - the last time it happened they chased them all the way back to Calimshan (that was in the Giant's Run - even further away then the area you are pointing out).
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
I wasn't thinking about pirates in particular, more a small insular nation of minotaurs. Xenophobic and loyalist but recent provocation has caused them to look beyond their own borders.
Well, I was never a big fan of the Dragonlance material, but I've always loved Minotaurs, and the book on them for that setting was one of two DL products I ever purchased.
There's just something so sexy about Minotaur Vikings.
quote:
As was noted above by others, it has more to do with their proximity to water - Island cultures tend to develop strong navies.
As for the Minotaurs of Krynn always liking the sea - from what I remember, they were originally Ogres, and I've never heard of Ogres being very fond of water. Although Krynnish Ogres are different then most, and I'm not all that knowledgable about that setting, truth be told.
Does FR have any instances of Sea-faring Ogres? (I realize that it is slightly O-T, but it's related to the discussion at hand) I know of a Hill-Giant Pirate Captain, but I don't recall any Ogres.
Anyhow, Realmsian Minotaurs are NOT Ogres, so thats neither here nor there.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
I think if they do use boats they should be viking style ships with significant oar propulsion.
Just to change it up a bit, my Norse-like Half-Minotaurs had double banks of Oars, like a Bireme, but still looked like a Longship. The ones the Jarls use - Greatships - had triple banks (like a trireme).
Now, you put all of that impressive Minotaur Muscle behind a double bank of oars, and you can practically waterski behind the thing.
There was in the past a nation of minotaurs on the shores of the Moonsea right?
There was, the minotaurs of grong haarp.
I think they fought against Haask of Ironfang Keep. If i remember correctly the minotaurs were winning and Haask retreated into Ironfang Keep and tried to summon Hargut, then Bhaal stabbed Haask and the Dark Three then forced Haask and Hargut to merge.
Then i cant quite recall what happened but im thinking Tyranthraxus and his Twisted Legion then beat the remnants (although Edranka may have died.
I may have completely misremembered all that but if you search the 4e dragon and dungeon articles about Ironfang Keep and the Something of the Ancients (both excellent treasure troves of lore by Brian James i believe) then you should be able to piece together the full picture on the minotaurs.
**Resource needed Realmslore: Ironfang Keep
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There's no real evidence to suggest that Baphometian minotaurs are less civilized than, say, Vaprak (If anything, given Baphomet himself is relatively civilized, they'd probably be more erudite than non-Baphometians). Your average minotaur is probably not going to worship a civilized evil power like Bane or Hextor, when he has Vaprak, Talos, Malar, Baphomet or Erythnul to appeal to his sensibilities.
Also, there already are fiend-blooded baphitaurs that bred not to be "exxxtra brutal", but rather smarter and sneakier.
I am sure I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but I may as well mention it again, because recenty I did a newer WIP map of the Utter East, and am planning on doing something on the DMs Guild with that,
There is a minotaur 'kingdom' in the Sllaviul mountains on the southern border of Ulgarth. Now, nothing canon says that, but minotaurs are on some encounter tables for nearby areas, and I decided to roll with that. Its not a very formal thing - just a few clans, each with their own 'Marl' (equivalent to a Norse 'Jarl'), and then they have a 'High Marl' who basically just runs the meetings when the jarls get together (and he usually gets his way, which makes him fairly close to them having a king... but not quite). These minotaurs live peaceably with the nearby humans, for the most part (as much as humans get along with each other, anyway), and have even hired-out as mercenaries from time to time. Considering the plethora of truly evil 'monsters' in other mountains in the regions (especially the Yehimals), they are considered 'good neighbors', and a great 'buffer zone' between the human countries and the 'forces of evil' in the region.
Originally, I was going to say my homebrew city of San Taur turned into Esbrech (which is a canon settlement with no lore) (**citation/reference?). I came up with the name 'San Taur' because I had originally called it 'Sanctuary', and I literally only had to erase two letters to create the name (I planned to use the city of Sanctuary from the Thieves World setting). The 'taur' in the name then gave me the idea for some lore about a minotaur hero once saving the townsfolk from a pirate raid, and then the minotaurs in the region just grew out of that (all because I altered a name so as to not step on another IP). Now San Taur is a small town working on becoming a large one, and has no connection to Esbresh, other than Esbresh being a far-southern outpost of Ulgarth, and the place where trade sometimes passes through from the Utter East (the little bit that goes by land). It's a human town, and I kept that history I created intact, and now minotaur 'barbarians' are welcome in the town to trade, and a few even live there. So not really a minotaur settlement by any stretch of the imagination, but enough are there for outsiders to maybe get that impression. Minotaurs can be hired there as ship crew, soldiers, whatever. Many young 'taurs earn fame & fortune in this manner, before returning home to find a mate. And if you wanted to deal directly with the minotaur 'nation', you would have to contact them first in Esbresh (there is a tavern - The Bull's Horn - that acts like their 'embassy', of sorts).
They do not like - nor live with any - of the large, brutish kind. In fact, many of those are part of the monster Kingdom of Nix, and they have been fighting-off attacks from them for centuries (Nix's King Redfang insists they join him, but they refuse). About a dozen or so Sllaviul minotaurs have made it all the way to Waterdeep (after hiring on as ship-crew), and they command very high prices as 'escorts' into Undermountain. The minotaurs natural ability to navigate labyrinths comes in MIGHTY handy, and many adventurers consider it worth the price hiring them to accompany them. At least one can be found at any time drinking at the Yawning Portal, looking for work. Thus far, every single foray the minotaurs have made, they've come back from (but perhaps not the rest of the party... no-one knows for sure).
**Ok so, I do like some of the things you expanded on Mark, helps fill some more gaps. There's a lot of time here to account for since ShadowJack's last post said in 1325 High Priest of Ketor tells the people of Ketorn that their god has told him them to rejoin the world around them. This would be some 33 years before the Time of Troubles.
Things to still address:
[list]
Minotaur creation story - every race tribe has to have some creation story (even if its not all that accurate, they gotta tell their kids how they were made)
Diety - this topic has come up several times in the thread and other than the Minotaur champion Ketor becoming a lesser/demipower after his death the overall deity been discussed a bit but hasnt been hashed out.
History from 1325 to current 5e year of 1491(ish) DR - I have a bunch (5) of brand new to the realms (and tabletop RPGs) players (and 1 experienced) who since starting this campaign are consuming all of the FR canon lore they can find, from novels to the PC game series (currently several are playing the Neverwinter MMO) so while I understand many people's resistance to including 4e's Spellplauge, I do want to ensure this history/story arc makes its way into my game as well as The Sundering so that my new, extremely enthusiastic players can relate their in game adventures to the canon lore they are playing outside of the game, and I'm trying to stick as close to canon as possible, while still making tweaks to allow for this minotaur player race/society. Moving forward, as my campaign progresses and diverges from new canon conent coming out, that's fine but i want them to be able to retain that intial wonderment of this huge epic world and not have to tell them "No, that didnt take place in my world".
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Edited by - Tigon on 15 Feb 2018 08:16:44 |
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Thoth
Acolyte
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2018 : 17:54:36
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Wow, that was a great synopsis. This has been an interesting thread the last few weeks. Love Minotaurs.
Need to make me a Minotaur Paladin someday... |
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Minotaur Cultures in the Realms?
