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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
31691 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2009 :  23:04:30  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As for the Minotaurs of Krynn always liking the sea - from what I remember, they were originallly Ogres, and I've never heard of Ogres being very fond of water.
You're right. The Minotaur race is another by-product of the Graygem. As the Graygem rampaged through the world of Krynn, it altered ogres in both Ansalon and also in Taladas.

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1453 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  13:31:39  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always hated the cursed origin idea for minotaurs... Heck, the mythological minotaur was the son of a god, not a cursed human. (...)


In one origin myth, yes. Another one says he is the result of a curse. King Minos fails to give his best bull in sacrifice to a deity, and he or she (don't remember which one) curses his wife to be attracted to the same bull. She asks Daedalus to build a metal cow with a properly placed orifice and consumates her passion. She gets pregnant and when the baby is born king Minos, in shame, locks the bastard in his labyrinth.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  18:59:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I call bull!


j/k


EDIT: After climbing into the metal bull-suit, she was heard to joyfully exclaim, "Wheres the Beef!?"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2016 19:01:10
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  19:01:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've seen that one, but I'm more familiar with the Zeus one... Especially since Zeus had perhaps the weirdest sex life ever imagined. I think Rule 34 was inspired by him.

On a more serious note, D&D has such a weird history of picking and choosing what it wants to from mythology that it's sometimes surprised what gets hardcoded in for all of gaming eternity, and gets unceremoniously kicked to the curb. Minotaurs and gorgons -- two ends of the spectrum, right there, from one mythology.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  19:05:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the Utter East thread/project, we had reinstalled Medusa's two sisters as alternate-type gorgons (a flying, harpy-like variant, and a snake-tailed, lamia-like one). Sometimes its up to the fans to fix things.

But you were probably talking about the bull-like Gorgon.

In my own hombrew mythos/settings, I've connected the two, in a similar fashion to what Barastir related above. Never liked the Maeder, so I replaced them.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
569 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2016 :  01:31:23  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find the whole idea of a minotaur kingdom frankly silly. I believe in the original OGB stance that minotaurs are exceedingly rare, likely transients from another plane or world.

I'm going to echo others and say that really they belong in Dragonlance. However, I"m fine with putting them in a small area of the Underdark, since there isn't anything there anyway.

If I were going to put a small kingdom above ground I would have them be nomadic pirates with no real kingdom boundaries, more like a bandit kingdom. Or perhaps on on island.

Evermoors could also work.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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31142 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2016 :  01:36:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The OGB did not cover all of the Realms.

I see no reason why a hidden city, partially underground and laying deep within a large forest, is such a stretch of the imagination.

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sfdragon
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2206 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2016 :  02:33:23  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
that's true, it didnt. come to think of it, none of the books ever shown all teh reams that it covered. they tended to show the main areas of each area...

even the underdark only shown the main areas. plenty of places to have a city of Minotaurs, there are mountain chains that are not likely completely explored either...

possible places:
abandoned mines
forgotten ruins
uncharted locations in mountain chains
uncharted places in the underdark.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2016 :  05:26:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We have cities of giant, one-eyed, floating balls (covered with more, smaller eyes), but minotaurs are silly?

M'kay.

But I guess I know what you mean - I prefer small tribes, like how hill giants band together. That would work for the more brutish kind. For a real nation/citystate, you'd have to go with something like the Krynnish ones.

I always loved minotaurs - I played one in a Monsters! Monsters! campaign once. Good Times.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2016 05:27:18
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

134 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2016 :  13:00:37  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
man working on my sandbox/dungeon for my stonelands settlement, but trying to figure out a format.

if you want to present a place as 1stly a settlement and then as a sort of dungeon (premise is the village was mysteriously abandoned and the adventuring party lives there and is trying to find out where everybody went, because obviously these goblinoids are too puny to not be stomped into the ground), should you write it twice or present each section under page numbers (like the well, description, plot hook, as a dungeon with encounter)?

check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2016 :  19:48:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd do it like the old-school modules - at the beginning I have two backstories; the one the players know (general knowledge/gossip/whatever), and then the 'DM only' backstory. Then just do the usual with the numbered locals (small write-up for each).

Normally the backstory should cover what happened in general, but if you need something specific for a certain locale ("Bahb died here"), then include that, but keep it separate somehow (in parenthesis, or better yet, colored text).

I think when I am done with my current map, I may try my hand at the DM's guild thingy - I still need to write-up my own Stonelands (Goblin) 'town' of Gwarch (which appeared on the canon 4e map of Cormyr). It would probably have a similar fate as yours, considering all that transpired between the Shades and the Zhents.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2016 19:50:32
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31142 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2016 :  20:32:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, Bahb is my NPC! And show proper respect -- he's a Cormyrian noble, of the Nounsilver family.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3934 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2016 :  20:57:28  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just thought i'd chuck something out there that im working on to account for the multiple origins of species on this toril and across other worlds.


The Fractured World: The following is taken from a text that appeared without explanation in the vaults of Candlekeep.
To those that are looking for the secrets of the multiverse know that herein does not lie the answer. I believe i am the first, i have witnessed many ages of the world, i understand more than any other being that existed and yet i can only provide what i believe to be true.
The world as you know it is false, it is broken, it is but a pale shadow of what was.
In the beginning there was the Cradle, a planet and universe teeming with new life (for it was truly the beginning). Something went wrong, the monsters on the edge of reality consumed all and the universe ended.
That was not the end however it was again the beginning. The universe cracked and the multiverse was born. Each sphere you see is the same reflection of the original but with a quantum difference just after the beginning that changed the world forever.
Why do all the same creatures live on each world, because they are the same world, following the same plan but in a different way. That is also why similar deities exist on each world.
Each world is separated in its own reality with its own cosmology (each similar but different to the next), but the walls between the realities are thin and can be breached by travelling to the edge and through to the next.
So saith the Metatext

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2016 :  21:11:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Hey, Bahb is my NPC! And show proper respect -- he's a Cormyrian noble, of the Nounsilver family.

'Bahb' has become quite famous around these halls, thus why used him as an example.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sfdragon
Great Reader

2206 Posts

Posted - 19 Oct 2016 :  23:36:24  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Hey, Bahb is my NPC! And show proper respect -- he's a Cormyrian noble, of the Nounsilver family.



I'd like to buy a vowel

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2016 :  01:25:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Hey, Bahb is my NPC! And show proper respect -- he's a Cormyrian noble, of the Nounsilver family.



Ah, yes, the famous Archnemesis of Bhab Vowelgold

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe

134 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2016 :  05:42:47  Show Profile  Visit shades of eternity's Homepage Send shades of eternity a Private Message  Reply with Quote
man

what weapons would you think are common for minotaurs from the 5e phb?


check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2206 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2016 :  06:38:40  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
clubs
mauls
great axes
great swords
horns

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
569 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2016 :  14:13:32  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The OGB did not cover all of the Realms.

I see no reason why a hidden city, partially underground and laying deep within a large forest, is such a stretch of the imagination.



Perhaps in the Underdark. Most large forests, at least deep within them is typically where the Fey hold sway so I'm not really seeing a minotaur civilization there either.

Keeping with the original motif, I guess the Underdark makes more sense. There are plenty of large unmapped labyrinths.

This however, leads to the larger questions: Where did they come from? Why are they in the Realms?

Why are they sprinkled about in random modules? Why labyrinths?

This is a hole in the lore that needs to be filled.

In my game anyway they are exceedingly rare and valuable bodyguards, obtained from other worlds.

No a city full of beholders doesn't seem silly at all considering it's known up front those are a part of the Realms.

They are not just randomly placed about with no explanation like minotaurs are.

That's what I meant that right now the notion of a minotaur civilization is quite silly and would require retcon back to the beginning.

Edited by - Cards77 on 23 Oct 2016 14:14:21
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2016 :  21:04:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess it boils down to a matter of taste, then. I absolutely LOATHE 'Beholder cities'. In other settings, beholders are very rare and solitary... AS IT SHOULD BE. They are WAY too powerful to hang around in groups. Thats why I feel a city full of them is SO OP. And then we have the Phaerimm, who EASILY subjugate a city of them... which to me jumps the shark... a shark the size of a planet.

While on the other hand, I LIKE minotaurs, A LOT. If there were 'minotaur ghettos' in some larger cities I'd be fine with it.

Thus, it depends on one's perspective. I also came to FR from GH, so my D&D tastes were acquired there, and I tend to think of that setting as 'the standard'.

However, I wouldn't have more than one 'minotaur city' in the setting, and even that would probably be more on the order of a very large town. As I said earlier in this thread, i like the idea of tribes of them all over the place. Maybe they have an ongoing 'war' with the Wemics, or even the Centaurs (which also don't get nearly enough love in FR). It would be fairly easy to spin them into existing lore.

Unlike aberrations, which I've always shied away from (although lately I am finding myself drawn more and more in that direction). I just find that whole group a bit too 'scify' for my (fantasy) tastes. I think 'Elder Evils' has gone a long way in smoothing those edges for me, which is perhaps why I'm am starting to dislike them a whole lot less. 'Elder Evils' is something that works for fantasy, horror, and scify (and bridges them nicely).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31142 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2016 :  21:22:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The OGB did not cover all of the Realms.

I see no reason why a hidden city, partially underground and laying deep within a large forest, is such a stretch of the imagination.



Perhaps in the Underdark. Most large forests, at least deep within them is typically where the Fey hold sway so I'm not really seeing a minotaur civilization there either.

Keeping with the original motif, I guess the Underdark makes more sense. There are plenty of large unmapped labyrinths.

This however, leads to the larger questions: Where did they come from? Why are they in the Realms?

Why are they sprinkled about in random modules? Why labyrinths?

This is a hole in the lore that needs to be filled.

In my game anyway they are exceedingly rare and valuable bodyguards, obtained from other worlds.

No a city full of beholders doesn't seem silly at all considering it's known up front those are a part of the Realms.

They are not just randomly placed about with no explanation like minotaurs are.

That's what I meant that right now the notion of a minotaur civilization is quite silly and would require retcon back to the beginning.




I'm not looking to explain how they got to the Realms because we already have them there, in canon.

It's also canon that there was a minotaur kingdom, in the past.

I don't see how it's silly to have any intelligent people form a city or kingdom, as long as it's not a race known for antipathy towards other members of the same race. And it certainly doesn't require a retcon to say that there is an existing group of minotaurs somewhere that hasn't been explored in canon.

We have a canon minotaur kingdom in the past. We have a group of minotaurs existing in canon near where Shadowjack and I were originally dropping a minotaur city.

Honestly, I think it's sillier to say there couldn't possibly be a minotaur civilization, given that we've got one in prior canon.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Oct 2016 21:27:11
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AuldDragon
Learned Scribe

USA
301 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2016 :  22:48:00  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I guess it boils down to a matter of taste, then. I absolutely LOATHE 'Beholder cities'. In other settings, beholders are very rare and solitary... AS IT SHOULD BE. They are WAY too powerful to hang around in groups. Thats why I feel a city full of them is SO OP.



Except beholders on Toril originate primarily from Spelljamming beholders, who *do* organize themselves into large groups. It makes sense those in FR would do the same. :)

Jeff

My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not."
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
569 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2016 :  01:22:48  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I guess it boils down to a matter of taste, then. I absolutely LOATHE 'Beholder cities'. In other settings, beholders are very rare and solitary... AS IT SHOULD BE. They are WAY too powerful to hang around in groups. Thats why I feel a city full of them is SO OP. And then we have the Phaerimm, who EASILY subjugate a city of them... which to me jumps the shark... a shark the size of a planet.

While on the other hand, I LIKE minotaurs, A LOT. If there were 'minotaur ghettos' in some larger cities I'd be fine with it.

Thus, it depends on one's perspective. I also came to FR from GH, so my D&D tastes were acquired there, and I tend to think of that setting as 'the standard'.

However, I wouldn't have more than one 'minotaur city' in the setting, and even that would probably be more on the order of a very large town. As I said earlier in this thread, i like the idea of tribes of them all over the place. Maybe they have an ongoing 'war' with the Wemics, or even the Centaurs (which also don't get nearly enough love in FR). It would be fairly easy to spin them into existing lore.

Unlike aberrations, which I've always shied away from (although lately I am finding myself drawn more and more in that direction). I just find that whole group a bit too 'scify' for my (fantasy) tastes. I think 'Elder Evils' has gone a long way in smoothing those edges for me, which is perhaps why I'm am starting to dislike them a whole lot less. 'Elder Evils' is something that works for fantasy, horror, and scify (and bridges them nicely).



Yeah I do agree. The concept of beholder hives is pretty insane. The whole thing is so OP as to be almost completely useless in game other than to be like "oh wow that exists, let us never speak of it again"

However, I guess LE is as LE does

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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
569 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2016 :  01:33:43  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The OGB did not cover all of the Realms.

I see no reason why a hidden city, partially underground and laying deep within a large forest, is such a stretch of the imagination.



Perhaps in the Underdark. Most large forests, at least deep within them is typically where the Fey hold sway so I'm not really seeing a minotaur civilization there either.

Keeping with the original motif, I guess the Underdark makes more sense. There are plenty of large unmapped labyrinths.

This however, leads to the larger questions: Where did they come from? Why are they in the Realms?

Why are they sprinkled about in random modules? Why labyrinths?

This is a hole in the lore that needs to be filled.

In my game anyway they are exceedingly rare and valuable bodyguards, obtained from other worlds.

No a city full of beholders doesn't seem silly at all considering it's known up front those are a part of the Realms.

They are not just randomly placed about with no explanation like minotaurs are.

That's what I meant that right now the notion of a minotaur civilization is quite silly and would require retcon back to the beginning.




I'm not looking to explain how they got to the Realms because we already have them there, in canon.

It's also canon that there was a minotaur kingdom, in the past.
up of minotaurs somewhere that hasn't been explored in canon.

We have a canon minotaur kingdom in the past. We have a group of minotaurs existing in canon near where Shadowjack and I were originally dropping a minotaur city.

Honestly, I think it's sillier to say there couldn't possibly be a minotaur civilization, given that we've got one in prior canon.



Ok I went back and read some of this thread again but clearly I'm missing something. I'm no master of lore. Where was this prior minotaur civilization treated in the canon?

I'm still standing on my statement that this is a hole in the lore that needs to be filled. Especially if it's taking us 6 pages to figure out how to build a logic house of cards to justify this minotaur city of a civilization that already was explained in canon?

I guess I'm not really understanding it. That link to the Dragon article is broken. That's not it is it?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31142 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2016 :  09:33:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We're not spending 6 pages building "a logic house of cards to justify this minotaur city of a civilization that already was explained in canon" -- a lot of this thread was first discussing what was there and then building something new. It was a group collaboration to come up with a backstory for a new creation.

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