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Tigon
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USA
37 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  00:46:52  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I started collating all the history and notes from the original work ShadowJack did last night. I'll post it up tonight once i have it organized
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  01:15:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good. I was going to do that as well - I see ShadowJack added more to the timeline than what was posted above. Now I can go back to mapping. LOL

Some of that would have conflicted with my own conversion of the Elsir Vale Material into the Chondath Vale (because IT IS the same damn place), but only because of the later-added Overlook material, which wasn't even internally consistent with the rest of the AP. I have since move the Overlook portions of the AP south on my main maps, and when I get to that region with my main Mapping project, It will show the 'corrected' version, which will NOT interfere with the Border Kingdom and other lore.

The Overlook stuff had hordes of Orcs to the NW, which, when applied to an FR map, put those 'hordes' inside the Border kingdoms - that was a fairly big problem for me (actually, the entire AP had those humanoids to the NW, which just doesn't work). We could have made it work on the older 1e/2e maps, because we had so much more room (although 'orc hordes' sandwiched between human realms seems a bit odd, especially in empty plains), and although we've gotten all that terrain back now, I am going to keep Overlook to the southwest, rather than the northwest, where its a better fit up against the Bandit Wastes.

So why bring all of that up? Because humanoids tend to live Underground, and that would be a little rough having them near the Minotaurs (or the entirety of the Border Kingdoms, for that matter). We also have giants in the nearby Firesteep Mountains (at the very edge of the Border Kingdoms). Now those humaoids aren't a problem for ANY of the lore - canon FR (Border Kingdoms) or anything we do here or elsewhere.

There is another conversion project I was working on, and I can slip all of this into that, come to think of it. I had to detail a a portion of the BK anyway.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2018 02:21:44
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Tigon
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USA
37 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  01:24:39  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yah I'm going to be doing a bunch of consolidating of notes regarding this topic and the Gargauth topic i started in the next few days. I realized that i kinda went ham about Gargauth with speculations in a forum area intended for canon discussion only so I'm going to go correct that and make a point from here out to make sure im posting everything in the right forums. As i said ill habe updates in the next 24-48 hours
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  02:42:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is the Quarth forest really optimal? I am thinking the Duskwood would probably be a lot better - less 'central', and also closer to the Firesteap mountains. On my maps, I actually have quite bit more hills and mountains to the west of that N/S road there (The Golden Road running through Innarlith. On THIS MAP you can see the hills there - 'The Shieldmaidens'. And that map use the now defunct 3e geography - there is actually quite a lot more hills (and mountains) there now that we've gotten more land back.

I had to raise up that entire end of the Lake of Steam otherwise the Nagaflow didn't make any sense - water only 'turns' when it runs into an obstacle. Without lots of hills in the region, that river should have dumped right into the LoS. I am assuming there was a significant mountain range in that area before whatever made the Lake of Steam blew it to smithereens (because that's another shallow-impact crater - an object traveled east-to-west - The Almraiver range was 'pushed up' at the end there). Not to mention there is a VERY good reason those Beholders are all over those Mountains - they were IN the object that hit.

So anyhow, those hills - The Shieldmaidens - would be a good 'underneath' place for them, with the Duskwood right there, and they'd be on the edge rather than the middle of the Border Kingdoms (and near giants, if we wanted to pull them in). The hills could also be a great place to find rare minerals, like starsilver and such, which could be how the minotaurs are surviving, money-wise (especially if you are involving greedy little gnomes).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Feb 2018 02:43:41
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Tigon
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USA
37 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  07:03:59  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Is the Quarth forest really optimal? I am thinking the Duskwood would probably be a lot better - less 'central', and also closer to the Firesteap mountains. On my maps, I actually have quite bit more hills and mountains to the west of that N/S road there (The Golden Road running through Innarlith. On THIS MAP you can see the hills there - 'The Shieldmaidens'. And that map use the now defunct 3e geography - there is actually quite a lot more hills (and mountains) there now that we've gotten more land back.

I had to raise up that entire end of the Lake of Steam otherwise the Nagaflow didn't make any sense - water only 'turns' when it runs into an obstacle. Without lots of hills in the region, that river should have dumped right into the LoS. I am assuming there was a significant mountain range in that area before whatever made the Lake of Steam blew it to smithereens (because that's another shallow-impact crater - an object traveled east-to-west - The Almraiver range was 'pushed up' at the end there). Not to mention there is a VERY good reason those Beholders are all over those Mountains - they were IN the object that hit.

So anyhow, those hills - The Shieldmaidens - would be a good 'underneath' place for them, with the Duskwood right there, and they'd be on the edge rather than the middle of the Border Kingdoms (and near giants, if we wanted to pull them in). The hills could also be a great place to find rare minerals, like starsilver and such, which could be how the minotaurs are surviving, money-wise (especially if you are involving greedy little gnomes).



I'm not married to Quarth forest or Lake of Steam was just going with what had been outlined thus far in the thread. Hoping to have collation of this thread complete and posted tonight.
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Tigon
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37 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  07:09:30  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
==Rough timeline thus far==

-10400 DR
Dark elves of Clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) from Ilythiir, guided by the hand of the balor Wendonai. They construct an underground fortress named Narathmault [-10000], "the Dark Pit," at the site of present-day Dun-Tharos, recognizing it as a place of great evil.

-10000 DR
Descent of the Drow:
Corellon’s magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weakesses that banish them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two months’ passing into the Underdark.

-Elves are summoned by the Seldarine to the site that becomes the Elven Court one month after the Descent of the Drow, to settle differences and restore peace among the elves.

-Like their kin elsewhere, the dark elves of Narathmault [-10400, -9750] are transformed into drow by the will of the Seldarine, shattering their bindings over a host of fiends who swiftly turn on their former masters. Led by Undrek of Clan Sethomiir, the drow and their minotaur servants are forced to flee Narathmault, traveling south and east into the underground caverns beneath the present-day Plateau of Thay.

-6000 A splinter/remnant of Ostoria has been in existence for several hundred years on the present day Thayan Plateau. The giants of this small realm are few in number and rule it with an iron hand. Despite constant pressure from numerous foes, the kingdom has persisted, due in large part to the huge numbers of minotaurs that serve the Giants as troops. A large population of gnolls are also used as cannon fodder by the giant rulers of the kingdom. There is constant fighting between the minotaurs and gnolls.

-5500 Due to attrition, the minotaur population has steadily declined, they now number seriously less than the gnolls that are there neighbors. Gnolls are gaining more prestige with giant rulers due to their larger numbers.

-5300 Ketor, a minotaur leader, gains notice of minotaurs and Giant Rulers alike, due to his large size, great wisdom and strength. Under his leadership the minotaurs are winning every battle they engage in for their giant masters. Ketor is alarmed by the cost (in lives)to his people. The gnolls cease hostilites, largely out of fear of Ketor's leadership.

-5295 Ketor appeals to his giant masters for a reprieve from the fighting. He asks for time for the minotaurs to rebuild strength. The giant Lords refuse and order him north to attack hobgoblin tribes. After they are killed or driven off the minotaurs are to attack into the Auldgloam and seize elven cities. The minotaurs will be the spearhead and the gnolls will follow behind to clean up.

-5294 Bound by his peoples oath of service to the Giant Kings of the realm, Ketor leads his people north and engages the hobgoblins. They win every battle, but the losses are higher than expected. The minotaur groups split over the casualties. Several large bands of minotaurs break their oaths and leave in the night. Eventually, these groups enter the Underdark to hide from their enemies and former masters. These minotaurs are referred to by the Ketoran Minotaurs as the "Shamed" and the event as the "Shame". The minotaurs as a fighting force are now greatly weakened.

-5293 Saddened by the schism in his people and further losses to the numerous (but retreating) hobgoblins, Ketor stops short of invading the Auldgloam. He claims he is taking time to regroup his forces and await the gnoll legions, but, actually, he has received a vision in his dreams; the minotaurs destruction is inevitable if they enter the Auldgloam. This vision is delivered by a bloodied and crippled human surrounded by a glowing light. Ketor secures his position and, with a few of his great warleaders, returns to the Thayan Plateau to report to his masters. He shares his vision with them and asks that his people be withdrawn from the attack on the elves. The giants are outraged, a fight ensues, Ketor's warleaders are killed and he is seriously wounded. Ketor escapes from the Giants Stronghold. He is close to death and collapses... The giant lords dispatch one of their own to take command of the minotaurs and proceeed with the attack on the Auldgloam.

As Ketor lays dying an unknown deity appears to him and heals his wounds. This deity says he has seen the honor with which Ketor's people have endured their bondage to the giants. This deity wishes to aid the minotaurs. Ketor agrees to serve the deity forever and renounce giant deities and Baphomet in return for help. The deity takes Ketor to a large elven city in the Auldgloam. Ketor offers to lead his minotaur army away without attacking if the elves will aid their escape. The elven Coronal agrees with one condition; the minotaurs agree to perform some service for the elven people if ever they should ask. Ketor reluctantly agrees. Ketor returns to his people and tells them of his agreement with the deity and the elves. Most of the minotaurs agree as a large force of giant-led gnolls is approaching. The minority priests of Baphomet are displeased but agree to follow.

The gnolls are ready to attack with overwhelming numbers when Ketor challenges the giant leader to combat. Armed with a magical axe and powerful abilities from the deity, Ketor defeats the giant and his people force the gnolls to retreat enough to give them a chance at escape. True to their word, the elves lead the minotaurs into the Auldgloam to a large gate. Ketor leads his people through the gate to an old ruined city in the Firesteap mountains. For the next thousand years ketor leads his people in a nomadic journey from place to place at the direction of his patron deity. The minotaurs support themselves as mercenaries.

-4300 DR The Death of Ketor
The minoyaurs wander into the area of the Qurth Forest. Hunting parties find a large, easily defended clearing in the midst of the woods. Ketor leads his people into the woods to rest and regroup from their wanderings. Using this time of peace to their advantage, the followers of Baphomet, a small, but powerful faction in the minotaur tribes, attempts to assasinate Ketor and his strongest supporters. By this time Ketor is revered by most of his people as a god. The High Priest of Baphomet, imbued with powers from his god, attacks Ketor. Ketor slays the priest of Baphomet in a day long battle using the powers and magical axe given to him by his patron deity. The followers of Baphomet are routed out of the tribes with the survivors fleeing into the Underdark, just as the "shamed" did before them. Ketor is weakened and seriously wounded to the point of death. His last act is to appoint a Warleader in his place. The grieving minotaurs build a huge cairn over the body of their leader and place his magical axe and armor with him. The next thousand years see the minotaurs migrating back to the Qurth Forest every ten years to honor Ketor. By this time Ketor is venerated as their patron god. These minotaur tribes are led by the Priests of Ketor and an appointed Warleader.

-4400 DR Raising of the Temple and founding of the city of Ketorn.
The High Priest of Ketor recieves a vision from Ketor. He leads the minotaurs back to the site of his deities mortal death. Once there he instructs the people to build a temple to Ketor. Using many of the stones from the cairn a massive temple is begun to honor Ketor.

-4280 DR The temple is completed. In the final ceremony, Ketor's remains and armor are interred in maze/catacombs beneath the temple. The magical axe (Bardiche, magic abilities? stats?) gifted to Ketor is given to the warleader as a sign of Ketor's favor. During this time a small city grows up around the temple, it is named Ketorn to honor their deity. The minotaurs hunt, farm a little and continue to hire out as mercenaries. The minotaurs are very isolationist and allow no visitors to their city. Its existence is almost unknown.
next the Elves return...

-3144 The small city of Ketorn has continued to thrive and maintain its relative isolation within the expanse of the Qurth Forest. Companies of Minotaur mercenaries are hired from as far away as Mir(Tethyr), the Jhaamdath(Vilhon Reach) and of course, Calimshan.
The minotaurs are shocked when their isolation is broken by the appearance of a large, well-armed band of Moon Elves approaches the gates and demands to see the Warleader and High Priest of Ketor. The warleader assembles a warband of minotaurs to drive them off, but, is stopped by the High Priest before any hostilities ensue. The High Priest has the elves escorted to the Temple where they remain for two days. Early on the third day the elves depart as quickly as they appeared. Minotaur rangers follow them as far as old ruins in a wwild section of the forest.

Several months later the elves return, escorting a group of 200 gnomes; escaped slaves from Nehteril. The gnomes are brought into the city whereupon the High Priest reminds the puzzled minotaurs of the ancient promise that Ketor made with the elves. Minotaur craftsmen help the gnomes construct the Burrow Quarter of Ketorn. Rumors abound of a powerful magic that the gnomes brought with them, and the elves would prefer kept secret, that is hidden in the bowels of Ketor's Temple.

-3133 to 1311
Ketorn remains largley unknown outside of the Qurth Forest, due to its isolation and gnomish illusions. The city continues to grow with the main exports being mercenaries. As both gnome and minotaur populations increase there is increased pressure on the Warleader and the High Priest to allow trade with neighboring cities. For centuries this reuest is denied.

1325
After years of debate, the High Priest of Ketor tells the people of Ketorn that their god has told him them to rejoin the world around them. Many are puzzled by this sudden reversal of policy. Gnome craftsmen are elated. Late in this year, the first group of gnome merchants leaves the city and finds ready buyers for Minotuar maze-pattern cloth and gnomish metal goods, cut gems and wood carvings.


***NEXT POST - collated rough notes to digest and discuss

Edited by - Tigon on 15 Feb 2018 07:29:21
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Tigon
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USA
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Posted - 15 Feb 2018 :  08:11:52  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
**Ive bolded, struck out and underlined some key points i want to call out. Ive also put in my own notes in various places and have tried to bold all of them and tag them with **

As for their origins, lets just skirt that issue... After all, many of the Realms inhabitants are transplants from other planes/prime material lands... I would like to avoid any inclination of an evil origin...

Walker, I agree with you that the issue of their reclusiveness needs to be addressed. I was thinking of explaining it by a cultural/social taboo given them by their Hero/demi-god to avoid entangling themselves in the affairs of other races, so as not to draw the attention of the giants they were once forced to serve... (this is a little weak)
I like the idea brought up by Walker of the different types of bovines from different areas. This could be interesting. The Lake of Steam Minotaurs, whenever they come into contact with these other breeds/types, especially if slaves, do their best to free them from their bondage and transplant them back to the Lake of Steam city... This could be one reason for the city (Minotopia? sorry, had to be said... talk about bad names or puns) becoming more well known, the population has increased due to natural births and transplanting other minotaurs from across Faerun. This increase has put pressure on the Herd Elders (sorry) to find a release for the excess young bulls (hot bloods). Namely, hire them out as mercenaries, but only under the immediate control of minotaur commanders...

>>Well, I think George's original idea about the plateaus of Thay is definitely a good place >>to start. And it's isolated enough so that it doesn't have to have an immediate impact upon >>the "heart" of the Realms setting itself -- doing away with messy questions about "why this >>minotaur nation was never discovered or mentioned previously".

Actually, given that Thay's plateau was populated by some less than honorable centaurs, a horde of gnolls, many orc refugees from the orcgate wars, and had a neighboring country of star elves.... minotaurs would definitely seem to fit in. However, despite their strength, maybe they were being overwhelmed by numbers, and thus they dug into the plateaus and developed trapped mazes to protect their villages (but would come out to raid for food, etc..).

So, Our minotaur having been forced to take part in these numerous conflicts on behalf of the giants, decide they are done. They strike a deal with dwarves?, not likely, Elves?, possible, In return for not following orders and attacking an elven settlement/kingdom, they strike a deal. The elves allow them use of a gate that transports them a great distance. The minotaurs wander for several hundred years (nomadic)supporting themselves through mercenary endeavors. Finally, they find the remains of a (maze-like) city on the southern coast of the Lake of Steam, drive off the (true) monsters and set up shop. Several hundred years after that they are shocked when a group of gnomes shows up in their midst with an elven escort, calling in a favor from the minotaurs past. The gnomes are escaped slaves from Netheril being helped to escape by the elves. (read on the Wizard's website, somewhere... About old elven gates) The minotaurs, being honorable, agree to take them in. What happens next is surprising as a strong symbiotic relationship occurs... and persists to this day...


Hmmm... It's rough, but I like the idea.

I don't know that the ruined city needs to be maze-like, or even needs to exist at all. It could have been that the minotaurs broke up into groups, not unlike tribes. They picked a convenient/designated spot for meetings and trade, and, as time passed, that spot grew into a city as the minotaurs became less nomadic.

The spot could even be where their leader died or was buried. First it became a shrine, then it became a temple as the city formed around it... Going with this angle, the temple would be near the center of the town, and the clergy would be an important part of the government.

I like the idea of the city being the spot where their leader died. The idea of the clergy being central to their government is excellent. These older clergy, the wisest in the various tribes, are the elders that direct the daily affairs of their culture. To keep it from being a total theocracy, there is also a "Warleader". The greatest, most well-liked warrior of the city. It is his task to carry on the spirit and ideals of the original Hero/Leader. In a way the clergy/elders are the legislature and the warleader is the executive. The temple also serves as the government seat with an assembly hall.

So, that having been said, I gotta ask... What do ya'll think about the gnomes being included in this? (Be kind) I like the gnomes...

the maze thing I am suggesting only because it is part of their stats in all the books. It also sets them apart more from the other races...

What if the gnomes managed to get their hands on ¿some artifact?(original notes state it as one section of the Nether Scrolls, but was later rebuttled against this) The elves, get them out of Netheril, but, for some reason, do not want to take possession of the scroll artifact. The elves remember the minotaurs debt to their ancestors and call in the favor with the minotaurs. Take in these refugees, for a while, keep them and the Nether Scroll artifact safe for a period of 100 years??? After this time your debt to us (the elves) is paid in full.The clergy/elders, because of their deities mythos, see guarding the Scroll as a sacred duty, and agree. What happens is the Minotaurs find that the gnome's skills with various things is beneficial. The gnomes provide armor, weapons?, alchemical substances, and magic. Some gnome mages even hire out with the mercenary bands, providing magical fire power. The minotaurs know how to fight, farm and maybe, some construction, the gnomes provide very useful items that aid their lives. The city is not well known because of illusionary magic that the gnomes employed to keep it hidden from the minotaurs ancient enemies, the frost giants???, who occasionally come looking for them, and did so not long after the gnomes are taken in... The Scroll is placed in "maze-like" catacombs beneath the temple, where it remains guarded by secrecy, gnome magic and minotaur might...
Sorry so long...
Now we just need an appropriate deity... I have no giant sourcebooks, any ideas?

I'm reading thru the Border Kingdoms section of Power of Faerûn. In my opinion, Qurth Forest is a good locale (rethinking locale) for our minotaur city-state (Ketorn, named after Ketor?). I'd put it inside the forest, and say that the reason no one knew of it was because the minotaurs followed a fairly isolationist policy. Other than gnomish farmers and minotaurs sent out to act as mercs, they kept their contact with the outside world to a minimum.

Another notation: after reading the article on Baphomet, I also like the idea of a religious schism. I'd say that sometime after fleeing the giants, a group of Baphomet worshippers started causing trouble, leading to a civil war. The Baphomet-followers lost, and either fled or were forced into the Underdark. The other group stuck around, becoming the city-state we're talking about.

It's even possible that the schism was brewing before the minotaurs fled the giant kingdoms. Ketor could have been mortally wounded in his victory over Baphomet's high priest, which became part of the legend that led to his deification.

Awesome idea! The schism would account for the Underdark minotaurs and also Ketor's death! I just picked up Power of Faerun (which I had decided not to buy, until I heard there was Border Kingdom info in it...) I wondered how this would affect the minotaur idea... I like the idea of having them in the Qurth Forest. Their isolation is aided by gnomish illusion. Where was the article on Baphomet? I am eagerly awaiting more info from Ed on WotC website dealing with the Border Kingdoms. What better place to hire out minotaur mercenaries? If anyone is interested I will post the next segment of the timeline, with Wooly's new ideas incorporated. Let me know, I do not want to be a bore...


You might also check out the vestiges in Pact Magic. There's some hint there that Thrym had something to do with the initial creation of Minotaurs. I think it even mentions Annam (book isn't here), so with that name it might be considered Canon. **pending fact checking

An idea that occurs to me: perhaps there is a system of naturally-occurring caverns under and near this citystate. This would allow for underground farming of mushrooms and edible fungi, and for the grazing of Underdark rothé. This additional foodsource would mean less surface ground had to go to food production, helping keep the city hidden.**i like the idea of the underground cavern, also that the maze structure could be there. not sure if minotaurs really eat fungi though.

As long as there's adequate defenses, and the minotaurs take steps to ensure the caverns remain a secret (the caverns themselves may have at some point in their history... connected to the rest of the Underdark), that would certainly go aways toward keeping the minotaur city-state safe and completely self-sufficient.

The tough spot I had in writing this Minotaur history was the issue of which deity sponsored Ketor and raised him to Demi-power status? Torm would be excellent but is too modern in Realms history/lore. I thought Ilmater would be a good choice as he has been around the Realms for a long time and was drawn to the minotaurs suffering and perseverance through it all. Thinking of other Realms deities that are ancient in the Realms I thought of Selune and Lathander. Lathander could work as part of his new beginnings/starts portfolio. Selune would be cool because I think she is the neatest Realm's deity... Give me your thoughts, please.
Sage, are some of your ideas related to this topic?


As for the deity, it could be a fallen or now subsumed deity...

I found a couple of bits in the Grand History of the Realms that I think need to be considered, when doing the history of this city-state. From page 15 of that source, emphasis mine:

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.

**Resource needed, originally posted link no longer works

As I recall, that's the first mention of Grong-Haap. Brian established that ancient realm for his "Moonsea" article.

I'll note further that some descendants of Grong-Haap still exist -- living in small clans beneath the Great Gray Land of Thar.

And can anyone think of a good reason why a minotaur nation could not be in unclaimed political region between Turmish, the Dragon Coast and the Shining Plains? It looks like a heavily forested mountainous region with access to the coast, which could be home to a nation similar to the Minotaurs of Kyrnn. Any obvious geographical or historical issues with this concept?


That area sounds plausible. We, were however trying to keep similarities between our Realms minotaurs and the DL minotaurs as few as possible. Heavy forests and mountains would be a good area for a minotaur kingdom.

Brian,
I will check this article out! Sounds like we could tie our minotaur culture in with existing Realms lore and create a whole history of minotaurs in the Realms.

Wooly,
What are you thinking about with the descent of the drow? Has there ever been a more evil group than the ancient Illythiiri? Every time some mention is made of them in a novel or source book these forebears of the drow just seem more mysterious and evil than any other... Perhaps they are the root cause of the giant kingdoms instability? The masters pulling the strings of their giant puppets, urging the giants to attack their elven adversaries... The giants were the tool the fallen elves used to strike back at the Seldarine...

quote:

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I personally don't like the idea of minotaur sailors. As I've pointed out before, can you imagine how strong the rigging would have to be to support them?



Fair point but those bad boys can't half row!

Originally posted by ShadowJack

Wooly,
What are you thinking about with the descent of the drow? Has there ever been a more evil group than the ancient Illythiiri? Every time some mention is made of them in a novel or source book these forebears of the drow just seem more mysterious and evil than any other... Perhaps they are the root cause of the giant kingdoms instability? The masters pulling the strings of their giant puppets, urging the giants to attack their elven adversaries... The giants were the tool the fallen elves used to strike back at the Seldarine...

Well, basically, without getting into the giant kingdoms or anything, that reference gives us minotaurs already in the right general area.

While we could keep the giant kingdoms origin and then add in something with this other group, I favor sticking to existing lore as much as possible. So if it was entirely up to me, the origins of this city-state would be with this group that we already have in that general area.
** i whole heartedly agree, id like to stick as close to canon as possible

So does this incarnation of a minotaur nation hark back to the time when giants and dragons rules the realms? Or is it more recent than that?

Well, I am embarrassed, I read through that passage you posted two times, and each time I have missed the key phrase "their minotaur servants". This puts minotaurs in the Thayan plateau area and makes the timeline more plausible... So, instead of the giants we could use this group of dark elves... This would explain why the Ketorn minotaurs avoided the UnderDark; they were staying away from their former masters... Don't hold back Wooly, tell me how you see this working out. Should we just ditch the giant tie in all together?

quote:

Originally posted by ShadowJack

Well, I am embarrassed, I read through that passage you posted two times, and each time I have missed the key phrase "their minotaur servants". This puts minotaurs in the Thayan plateau area and makes the timeline more plausible... So, instead of the giants we could use this group of dark elves... This would explain why the Ketorn minotaurs avoided the UnderDark; they were staying away from their former masters... Don't hold back Wooly, tell me how you see this working out. Should we just ditch the giant tie in all together?


It's prolly easier to totally dump the giant connection. While it was a good idea, it involved spinning lore into a totally blank space. Going with the drow connection, though, means we're simply extrapolating on known lore. **agree.


I think it also allows us to borrow an idea from the Riftwar books... See, in those books, part of the elven backstory is that the two major elven races, the elves (eledhel) and the dark elves (moredhel, or the Brotherhood of the Dark Path) are physically one race -- the only physical differences tend to be in hair color, and that's not even universal. And it's possible for an elf to become a moredhel, and vice-versa.

The reason the two races are different goes back thousands of years, to when a race of godlike beings, the Valheru, ruled the world. The elves (all types) were their slaves. The eledhel were generally left tending to the forests, while the moredhel were more often directly serving the Valheru. So the moredhel were basically tainted by that association. When the Valheru left, the elves said "Yay, we're free!", but the moredhel said "We will reclaim the power of our lost masters!", and continued to visit and hang around places the Valheru had been. So they became some really evil gits (though not as bad as drow), while the elves went the route of common fantasy elves. Some moredhel have thrown off the taint and Returned, becoming eledhel, but there have also been some elves that fell and joined the Dark Brothers. Moredhel and eledhel can distinguish between the races on sight, but any other race is going to have to rely on where they are and what the elf-type is doing.

Anyway, our civilized minotaurs could have split off and shunned their former masters, but some of them could have relished their former status as paid bullies and favored servants. So the latter group could still hang out in the Underdark and be happily savage, while the others tried to better themselves.

Oh, and as an aside, the name "Ketorn" just doesn't work as well for me. I keep wanting to call it "Keltorn", which I like better.


Huh... That's almost exactly the Eberron history of the Elves/Drow being slaves to the Giants before their fall.

How about Kelthorn? I like the idea of getting the word 'horn' in their somehow.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm also going to have to figure out how all of this relates to my own ancient (as in primordial) Minotaur Kingdom I placed in the Utter East (in the mountains). I had tie-ins with the Yakfolk to the South, and also placed Bargda (Ibixian in 3e) - Goatfolk - in the eastern Yehimal region. I had it where all three are were created in ancient times as servitor races of the Rakshasa (living in the Indianesque portions of FR - lower Utter East, the Sempadan, Tempat larang, and the lower K-T/Malatran Jungles).

I've also created a race of half-Minotaurs, called Vogalts, for my homebrew world. basically HUGE Vikings (Firbolgs?), but when they take off their helmets... the horns are still there!



**not sure if i'll personally use any of this piece of content, but im including this here for Mark's sake

quote:

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I personally don't like the idea of minotaur sailors. As I've pointed out before, can you imagine how strong the rigging would have to be to support them?


Spidersilk (with the highest tensile strength known) purchased from the Drow?

quote:

Originally posted by Wrigs13

And can anyone think of a good reason why a minotaur nation could not be in unclaimed political region between Turmish, the Dragon Coast and the Shining Plains?

Yes.

Its called Cormyr.



Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Anyway, our civilized minotaurs could have split off and shunned their former masters, but some of them could have relished their former status as paid bullies and favored servants. So the latter group could still hang out in the Underdark and be happily savage, while the others tried to better themselves.

This is certainly a possible interpretation. And it ties in with canon Realmslore rather nicely. We know small numbers of minotaurs have been seen regularly in many slave pens of the Drow Houses of Menzoberranzan -- some of them could be our minotaur savages. Drow would also press slave-minotaurs into battle as foot soldiers when they go to war. And Red Wizards utilise minotaurs as personal bodyguards as well -- so I'm sure some of our civilised minotaurs may have found work elsewhere.
quote:

Oh, and as an aside, the name "Ketorn" just doesn't work as well for me. I keep wanting to call it "Keltorn", which I like better.

I'll agree with this. "Keltorn" is often how I mentally refer to the place.

quote:

Originally posted by Markustay

How about Kelthorn? I like the idea of getting the word 'horn' in their somehow.


Good point about spidersilk, it at least sets a pecedent for a material capable of holding an adult minotaurs weight.

I was not talking about Cormyr, but the unclaimed region south of the ragon reach.

I wasn't thinking about pirates in particular, more a small insular nation of minotaurs. Xenophobic and loyalist but recent provocation has caused them to look beyond their own borders.

I am not sure that in 3rd ed the strong race makes good carpenters means good ship builders hence good sailors rational even holds up. It was really a construct of the 2nd ed rules as far as I can tell.

I think if they do use boats they should be viking style ships with significant oar propulsion.

quote:

Originally posted by Wrigs13

I am not sure that in 3rd ed the strong race makes good carpenters means good ship builders hence good sailors rational even holds up. It was really a construct of the 2nd ed rules as far as I can tell.

I think if they do use boats they should be viking style ships with significant oar propulsion.


I don't think that even the 2E rules implied any nautical or even woodworking leanings for minotaurs. I think them being sailors was entirely something from Krynn, and the fact they stuck the minotaurs of Ansalon on a couple islands. Even the minotaurs of Taladas weren't as nautically inclined.


Actually, the minotaurs of Taladas have long had a history of nautical inclination. Even before the first Cataclysm.

quote:
I only knew that from playing Alpha Centauri - there's an audio clip when you discover some new tech that says as much.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13

I was not talking about Cormyr, but the unclaimed region south of the ragon reach.

After re-reading what I wrote, I realized it might seem a little misleading. What I meant is that Cormyr has a history of not letting anyone else expand their borders anywhere near theirs - the last time it happened they chased them all the way back to Calimshan (that was in the Giant's Run - even further away then the area you are pointing out).

quote:

Originally posted by Wrigs13

I wasn't thinking about pirates in particular, more a small insular nation of minotaurs. Xenophobic and loyalist but recent provocation has caused them to look beyond their own borders.

Well, I was never a big fan of the Dragonlance material, but I've always loved Minotaurs, and the book on them for that setting was one of two DL products I ever purchased.

There's just something so sexy about Minotaur Vikings.

quote:
As was noted above by others, it has more to do with their proximity to water - Island cultures tend to develop strong navies.

As for the Minotaurs of Krynn always liking the sea - from what I remember, they were originally Ogres, and I've never heard of Ogres being very fond of water. Although Krynnish Ogres are different then most, and I'm not all that knowledgable about that setting, truth be told.

Does FR have any instances of Sea-faring Ogres? (I realize that it is slightly O-T, but it's related to the discussion at hand) I know of a Hill-Giant Pirate Captain, but I don't recall any Ogres.

Anyhow, Realmsian Minotaurs are NOT Ogres, so thats neither here nor there.

quote:

Originally posted by Wrigs13

I think if they do use boats they should be viking style ships with significant oar propulsion.

Just to change it up a bit, my Norse-like Half-Minotaurs had double banks of Oars, like a Bireme, but still looked like a Longship. The ones the Jarls use - Greatships - had triple banks (like a trireme).

Now, you put all of that impressive Minotaur Muscle behind a double bank of oars, and you can practically waterski behind the thing.


There was in the past a nation of minotaurs on the shores of the Moonsea right?

There was, the minotaurs of grong haarp.

I think they fought against Haask of Ironfang Keep. If i remember correctly the minotaurs were winning and Haask retreated into Ironfang Keep and tried to summon Hargut, then Bhaal stabbed Haask and the Dark Three then forced Haask and Hargut to merge.

Then i cant quite recall what happened but im thinking Tyranthraxus and his Twisted Legion then beat the remnants (although Edranka may have died.

I may have completely misremembered all that but if you search the 4e dragon and dungeon articles about Ironfang Keep and the Something of the Ancients (both excellent treasure troves of lore by Brian James i believe) then you should be able to piece together the full picture on the minotaurs.

**Resource needed Realmslore: Ironfang Keep


quote:

Originally posted by LordofBones

There's no real evidence to suggest that Baphometian minotaurs are less civilized than, say, Vaprak (If anything, given Baphomet himself is relatively civilized, they'd probably be more erudite than non-Baphometians). Your average minotaur is probably not going to worship a civilized evil power like Bane or Hextor, when he has Vaprak, Talos, Malar, Baphomet or Erythnul to appeal to his sensibilities.

Also, there already are fiend-blooded baphitaurs that bred not to be "exxxtra brutal", but rather smarter and sneakier.

I am sure I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but I may as well mention it again, because recenty I did a newer WIP map of the Utter East, and am planning on doing something on the DMs Guild with that,

There is a minotaur 'kingdom' in the Sllaviul mountains on the southern border of Ulgarth. Now, nothing canon says that, but minotaurs are on some encounter tables for nearby areas, and I decided to roll with that. Its not a very formal thing - just a few clans, each with their own 'Marl' (equivalent to a Norse 'Jarl'), and then they have a 'High Marl' who basically just runs the meetings when the jarls get together (and he usually gets his way, which makes him fairly close to them having a king... but not quite). These minotaurs live peaceably with the nearby humans, for the most part (as much as humans get along with each other, anyway), and have even hired-out as mercenaries from time to time. Considering the plethora of truly evil 'monsters' in other mountains in the regions (especially the Yehimals), they are considered 'good neighbors', and a great 'buffer zone' between the human countries and the 'forces of evil' in the region.

Originally, I was going to say my homebrew city of San Taur turned into Esbrech (which is a canon settlement with no lore) (**citation/reference?). I came up with the name 'San Taur' because I had originally called it 'Sanctuary', and I literally only had to erase two letters to create the name (I planned to use the city of Sanctuary from the Thieves World setting). The 'taur' in the name then gave me the idea for some lore about a minotaur hero once saving the townsfolk from a pirate raid, and then the minotaurs in the region just grew out of that (all because I altered a name so as to not step on another IP). Now San Taur is a small town working on becoming a large one, and has no connection to Esbresh, other than Esbresh being a far-southern outpost of Ulgarth, and the place where trade sometimes passes through from the Utter East (the little bit that goes by land). It's a human town, and I kept that history I created intact, and now minotaur 'barbarians' are welcome in the town to trade, and a few even live there. So not really a minotaur settlement by any stretch of the imagination, but enough are there for outsiders to maybe get that impression. Minotaurs can be hired there as ship crew, soldiers, whatever. Many young 'taurs earn fame & fortune in this manner, before returning home to find a mate. And if you wanted to deal directly with the minotaur 'nation', you would have to contact them first in Esbresh (there is a tavern - The Bull's Horn - that acts like their 'embassy', of sorts).

They do not like - nor live with any - of the large, brutish kind. In fact, many of those are part of the monster Kingdom of Nix, and they have been fighting-off attacks from them for centuries (Nix's King Redfang insists they join him, but they refuse). About a dozen or so Sllaviul minotaurs have made it all the way to Waterdeep (after hiring on as ship-crew), and they command very high prices as 'escorts' into Undermountain. The minotaurs natural ability to navigate labyrinths comes in MIGHTY handy, and many adventurers consider it worth the price hiring them to accompany them. At least one can be found at any time drinking at the Yawning Portal, looking for work. Thus far, every single foray the minotaurs have made, they've come back from (but perhaps not the rest of the party... no-one knows for sure).





**Ok so, I do like some of the things you expanded on Mark, helps fill some more gaps. There's a lot of time here to account for since ShadowJack's last post said in 1325 High Priest of Ketor tells the people of Ketorn that their god has told him them to rejoin the world around them. This would be some 33 years before the Time of Troubles.

Things to still address:
[list]
  • Minotaur creation story - every race tribe has to have some creation story (even if its not all that accurate, they gotta tell their kids how they were made)

  • Diety - this topic has come up several times in the thread and other than the Minotaur champion Ketor becoming a lesser/demipower after his death the overall deity been discussed a bit but hasnt been hashed out.

  • History from 1325 to current 5e year of 1491(ish) DR - I have a bunch (5) of brand new to the realms (and tabletop RPGs) players (and 1 experienced) who since starting this campaign are consuming all of the FR canon lore they can find, from novels to the PC game series (currently several are playing the Neverwinter MMO) so while I understand many people's resistance to including 4e's Spellplauge, I do want to ensure this history/story arc makes its way into my game as well as The Sundering so that my new, extremely enthusiastic players can relate their in game adventures to the canon lore they are playing outside of the game, and I'm trying to stick as close to canon as possible, while still making tweaks to allow for this minotaur player race/society. Moving forward, as my campaign progresses and diverges from new canon conent coming out, that's fine but i want them to be able to retain that intial wonderment of this huge epic world and not have to tell them "No, that didnt take place in my world".







  • Edited by - Tigon on 15 Feb 2018 08:16:44
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    Thoth
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    Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  17:54:36  Show Profile Send Thoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Wow, that was a great synopsis. This has been an interesting thread the last few weeks. Love Minotaurs.

    Need to make me a Minotaur Paladin someday...
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    Markustay
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    Posted - 20 Feb 2018 :  19:50:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Insanely good compilation, Tigon.

    **My Vogalts are not even from my hombrewed Realms, they are from a completely separate setting that I have been developing for years, whole-cloth. My design-aesthetic is to create races that are reminiscent of several generic fantasy races, while still keeping it all fresh (a new 'spin' on folklore, etc.). The stuff about the Utter East minotaurs is a LOT of extrapolation from a few scarce and barely-relevant sources (so also 95% homebrew, but at least situated in The Realms).

    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


    Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2018 19:51:27
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    sleyvas
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    Posted - 21 Feb 2018 :  01:36:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Just because I love that story from Tome of Magic, reprinting it. It doesn't mention Annam, only Thrym. The one part of the story I find funny is that they do change up the story from Norse Lore. Basically, Thor is the one who dresses up like a bride. Freya is the one Thrym wanted to marry. Thor and Freya are not brother and sister (hell, Freya's even from another tribe... the Vanir).

    Also, Haagenti appears as a winged minotaur. I would note that Mystara is one of the few places to have such beings (they are known as Enduk).

    http://www.lomion.de/cmm/enduk.php


    HAAGENTI, MOTHER OF MINOTAURS
    Haagenti tricked the god of frost giants and paid a terrible price for that deed. She girds her summoners for battle and gives them the power to confuse foes.
    Legend: The tale of how minotaurs originated changes according to the culture and race of the teller, but frost giants blame Haagenti. Thrym, their primary deity, had tried to force a goddess of the humans to marry him and failed when her brother disguised himself as Thrym’s bride and disrupted the ceremony. The angry and humiliated god consoled himself with dalliances among his giant worshipers. Haagenti, a hill giant sorceress, learned of his liaisons and used a spell to transform herself into a beautiful frost giant so that she might bear Thrym’s powerful half-god children. Her ploy succeeded, and a year later she gave birth to twin sons.

    Once the children of his dalliances had grown old enough, Thrym set out to visit and test them all. He fought each child to see who was the strongest and bravest, intending to invite the most fit to join him in Jotunheim. When he sought out Haagenti, he found her herding cattle in the warm lowlands and became enraged when he saw her true form. But when he raised his axe to fell her, two horribly ugly giants leapt to her defense. Thrym realized to his disgust that they were his sons.

    Thrym would have destroyed them at that moment, but he suddenly realized that Haagenti had taught him a valuable lesson. His failed attempt at marriage had been fouled by a beautiful form created through trickery, and now he had fallen victim to the same ruse again. Rather than kill Haagenti and her children, Thrym cursed them to resemble the cattle with which they wallowed, turning them into minotaurs. Then he left, vowing to teach his frost giant worshipers to distrust all beauty.

    How Haagenti became a vestige is unclear, but binder lore holds that her guilt at ruining beauty for the frost giants was so great that she could notbear to exist in any place that held beauty of any kind. Since every place in the planes seems beautiful to some being, she could find no eternal home anywhere. Haagenti refuses to speak on the subject and becomes angry when questioned about her past.

    Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

    Phillip aka Sleyvas
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    AuldDragon
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  06:46:13  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Haven't really read through the whole topic by any means, but you don't need to be a rigging-climber to be a sailor, and the best fit for minotaurs even draws upon the culture that spawned them.

    Give them galleys, triremes, and biremes.

    As for deities for minotaurs, some possibilities from real-world pantheons could be used (with them eventually getting supplanted by worship of Baphomet), such as:
    * Asterion, the actual name of the Cretan Minotaur; could be turned into a deity.
    * Achelous, a Greek deity of rivers (and originally all water), who was sometimes depicted as a man-faced bull, and more rarely, a man with the head of a bull.
    * Hathor and her child Apis/Serapis, perhaps at a time when the deities of the Old Empires weren't so restricted.
    * Rhea (Greek Titan) was worshiped on Crete by the Cretans, although in what form is unknown; the bull-worship of Crete could be drawn upon to make a minotaur version of her.

    Jeff

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    LordofBones
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  10:44:48  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    It must frustrate the vestige Haagenti that she shares her name with a demon prince. Whether the tanar'ri Haagenti knows that there's a vestige that shares his name is another story entirely.
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    sleyvas
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  13:15:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by LordofBones

    It must frustrate the vestige Haagenti that she shares her name with a demon prince. Whether the tanar'ri Haagenti knows that there's a vestige that shares his name is another story entirely.



    Within D&D is there actually a canon tanar'ri with that name? I know Pathfinder uses him (which I do find funny that this story has it as a her and apparently real world myth has it as a him).

    Nevermind, found the answer to my own question.... apparently in November 2005 introduced as a demon lord (the Lord of Alchemy) and then in March 2006 introduced as a vestige. Mere months separate their introduction into D&D. Sounds like someone was talking on some forums somewhere and sparked interested in a relatively unknown demon lord/lady, and two different spins were made. Personally, I'd consider taking this concept and spin it. I'd make Haagenti the demon lord as one of the two sons of Haagenti the deceptive who mated with Thrym, and she named the child after herself (the name may be considered both masculine and feminine as some are). Perhaps even Baphomet is the other son, and he's been trying to distance himself from the myth (noting that his origins are specifically made intentionally unclear for Baphomet in the demonicon of Iggwilv article in dragon 341, especially to the point of specifically saying that "he's definitely not the result of a curse by a god".... which almost screams, um, yes he was). I'd probably also recommend making the original Haagenti a Hag who was also changed by Thrym (and whose view of beauty was corrupted from that of other hags in punishment as well).

    Haagenti is the demon lord of Alchemy and Artifice, in the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game. Haagenti was first mentioned in the article "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Zuggtmoy" in Dragon #337 (November 2005), by James Jacobs. Haagenti's layer of the Abyss is catalogued as the 548th, known as Garavond. Garavond is a metallic orb within a lightless, airless void. The orb is Haagenti's fortress, laboratory, and palace, and it crawls with retrievers, clockwork horrors, golems, and more exotic constructs. When he wills it, Haagenti can fill the void around his fortress with magma, lightning, or any other element he chooses. Haagenti has an alliance with Zuggtmoy; the Lady of Fungi allows Haagenti's minions to gather various fungi and herbs growing in her layer for use in Haagenti's alchemical experiments in return for assisting in Zuggtmoy's plots.

    Oh, and between the two brothers... if we accept the idea of the demon lord Baphomet, Prince of Beasts, and the demon lord Haagenti, Lord of Alchemy, being brothers and children of the hag known as Haagenti.... it might be interesting to have the winged minotaurs known as Enduk on Mystara as having ties to the demon lord Haagenti in their creation, but this being an instance where a created people turn from their creator because of his conflicted nature.

    Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

    Phillip aka Sleyvas

    Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Feb 2018 13:23:57
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    LordofBones
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  13:34:22  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Haagenti also appeared in Armies of the Abyss by Green Ronin in his 3e introduction, and then was imported into 'core' D&D.
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    Wooly Rupert
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  22:00:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by AuldDragon

    Haven't really read through the whole topic by any means, but you don't need to be a rigging-climber to be a sailor, and the best fit for minotaurs even draws upon the culture that spawned them.

    Give them galleys, triremes, and biremes.

    As for deities for minotaurs, some possibilities from real-world pantheons could be used (with them eventually getting supplanted by worship of Baphomet), such as:
    * Asterion, the actual name of the Cretan Minotaur; could be turned into a deity.
    * Achelous, a Greek deity of rivers (and originally all water), who was sometimes depicted as a man-faced bull, and more rarely, a man with the head of a bull.
    * Hathor and her child Apis/Serapis, perhaps at a time when the deities of the Old Empires weren't so restricted.
    * Rhea (Greek Titan) was worshiped on Crete by the Cretans, although in what form is unknown; the bull-worship of Crete could be drawn upon to make a minotaur version of her.

    Jeff



    I like Serapis for the role of a minotaur deity, but the timing of it is wrong, unless his arrival in the Realms predated the Imaskari.

    I'm leaning towards some lesser power, right now, one that was barely hanging on when he helped out the minotaurs the first time, and who faded away altogether by the time Keltor ascended to divinity.

    I'm thinking this lesser power entered into the service of a greater power, but this was not enough to save him. It was, however, enough for the greater power to give the newly ascended Keltor a hand (he helped the first minotaur deity, so why not help a new one that the first one had helped?).

    So Keltor would be in service to this greater power, but since he's focused on minotaurs to the exclusion of pretty much anything else, he's unknown beyond our small gnome/minotaur (gnomotaur? ) realm.

    Still no idea on the greater power, though. All the ones I like are either too young, given how long ago our minotaurs arrived in the area (like Torm), or it's a deity that I like but that it'd be hard to justify (Selûne, for example).

    As I had previously suggested, my picks for Keltor's alignment would be true neutral or NG (an alignment I could be biased toward, because I strongly favor it), and his portfolios would be minotaurs, strength, determination, self-rule, and independence.

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    Markustay
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  22:50:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Hmmmmm... I promised myself I would try not to muse of 'all things deific' so much, buuuuuut....

    It seems to me this is really easy to rectify. Part of it, anyway. Lets use that story from Tome of Magic as a base. Its obviously been crossed with the Norse myths, so lets run with that - it HAS been crossed over the years, so that story isn't quite accurate. What really happened is that Haagenti used her magic to turn herself male, and then told Thrym that she was "really her brother in disguise" (so there really was no brother). Thrym gets pissed, and just ignores her. ("Damn! Why are all these dudes marrying me! Do I give off 'the vibe'?)

    Now, the Wikipedia entry on him ('her') says that he was a 'president of hell', which is also a problem.

    What if 'she' was an archdevil, and ruler of a layer a LONG time ago, and then Thrym took an interest. He probably figured if he forced her to marry him, he'd have access to her legions of fiends (or maybe he was enthralled be her four 'teats'). Whatever the case, 'she' changes to a 'he', which cause the problems we read about in ToM, and then 'he' goes to return to hell and finds out he lost his spot - her turning male somehow broke whatever bonds he had on certain things, and someone else took over. He pleads his case to Asmodeus, who has no sympathy at all, and tells him to 'just deal with it'. Furious, 'he' goes to the Abyss with his few remaining loyal servants, and carves-out a new territory.

    Thus, the original, female 'god' is but a vestige of what 'he' became.

    It all works.

    EDIT:
    And just now having gone over to the PFwiki, it actually sounds like it all fits perfectly - Haagenti is " the most reasonable and least destructive of the demon lords" - sounds a lot like a turncoat Baatezu to me.

    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


    Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2018 23:00:46
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    Markustay
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  22:54:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    I'm leaning towards some lesser power, right now, one that was barely hanging on when he helped out the minotaurs the first time, and who faded away altogether by the time Keltor ascended to divinity.

    I'm thinking this lesser power entered into the service of a greater power, but this was not enough to save him. It was, however, enough for the greater power to give the newly ascended Keltor a hand (he helped the first minotaur deity, so why not help a new one that the first one had helped?).
    Maybe combine the first two AuldDragon gave us? Call him something like 'Acherion', so its a nod to both?

    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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    Wooly Rupert
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  23:10:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I personally don't like the angle of the first deity being a demon lord. Not only does that not gel with the proposed history we've got going, it also begs the question of why followers of a demon lord would lead a peaceful, somewhat isolated existence. That's why I like the idea of a neutral or a good deity, and a schism between that deity's followers and the ones that went to Baphomet.

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    Markustay
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    Posted - 22 Feb 2018 :  23:34:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Well, this whole thread now has me studying the Lesser Key of Solomon, and it seems D&D got a lot of stuff wrong.
    Like, Glaysa(-Labolas) is a demon (although admittedly, this was the same as 'devil' back then), MALE, and a flying dog.

    I am also discovering - as I read the individual entries on the list (and now I am stupidly consider adding a 'history of hell' to my already too ambitious Overcosmology) that a LOT of these beings were somewhat benign. At least, in the beginning they were. This fits with the fact that they are all really 'fallen angels' (Celestials in D&D). It seems for awhile there, even after following Asmodeus (Asmodel) when he took over in hell, they were still keeping up with their 'celestial duties' (befitting lawful beings, wouldn't you agree?)

    And there's your 'out', Wooly.

    If Haagenti was really a devil (and she WAS, in RW folklore), who then 'switched sides' later, then early-on she would have BEEN a celsetial, and helpful to mortals. So I guess it all depends on how far back you want to set your minotaur lore (although we can use the vestige thing - as I stated above; a vestige of an original deity can still exist after the being has undergone drastic changes - see Orcus for a canon example of that).

    And now some of this has sparked a possible new entry for me in the Cosmology thread, having to do with the nature of 'godhood'.

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    Edited by - Markustay on 22 Feb 2018 23:35:51
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    Wooly Rupert
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    Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  00:16:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Well, ShadowJack's timeline has Keltor alive in -5500 DR. I'm not sure how well that fits the Haagenti idea.

    I'm inclined to think that the original minotaur deity would have been some very minor giant power, myself. Mayhaps one that was originally just about giants, but picked up minotaurs as his worship among giants waned.

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    Markustay
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    Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  00:55:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Personally, I'm a big fan of Kostchtchie (don't know for the life of me why, poor ugly bastich). But you don't want a fiend...

    But maybe you can use another theory of mine (one I've barely mentioned, believe it or not) - that the Realms-specific patron of the Stone Giants - Obadai - actually broadened his worshiper base, and went from being just exarch to regular god, worshiped as an 'earth deity' (nature god) by many primitive peoples. Eventually he becomes powerful enough to expand it other Spheres, where he is also know as Obad-hai.

    If we are going back nearly 7000 years, that could be when he (Obadai) was still just a demi-power, and looking for more worshipers, because this would pre-date his appearance in GH as Oabd-Hai. He may have even been an exarch of Silvanus for a time, after his father (Annam) was banished form the realms(and Silvanus himself may have only been a recent interloper, who was also looking to make an friends he could).

    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


    Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2018 00:55:41
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    LordofBones
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    Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  02:07:37  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    Well, this whole thread now has me studying the Lesser Key of Solomon, and it seems D&D got a lot of stuff wrong.
    Like, Glaysa(-Labolas) is a demon (although admittedly, this was the same as 'devil' back then), MALE, and a flying dog.

    I am also discovering - as I read the individual entries on the list (and now I am stupidly consider adding a 'history of hell' to my already too ambitious Overcosmology) that a LOT of these beings were somewhat benign. At least, in the beginning they were. This fits with the fact that they are all really 'fallen angels' (Celestials in D&D). It seems for awhile there, even after following Asmodeus (Asmodel) when he took over in hell, they were still keeping up with their 'celestial duties' (befitting lawful beings, wouldn't you agree?)



    I don't see anything in FC2 that implies the pre-fall baatezu were celestials. They were probably exemplars of law and the predecessors of modern angels, who actually are celestials. Angels in D&D aren't exemplars like the Archons; angels are servants of the Powers of the Upper Planes, while archons are the incarnate of Law and Good (in the sense that the Rilmani are Neutrality, the Modrons are Law, the tanar'ri Chaos and Evil, etc).
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    AuldDragon
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    Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  02:19:05  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    Well, ShadowJack's timeline has Keltor alive in -5500 DR. I'm not sure how well that fits the Haagenti idea.

    I'm inclined to think that the original minotaur deity would have been some very minor giant power, myself. Mayhaps one that was originally just about giants, but picked up minotaurs as his worship among giants waned.



    You could use Grond Peaksmasher; his imprisonment (which I don't believe has a specific date, beyond "after the founding of Ostoria and before human civilization on the Moonshaes") could coincide with the rise of Baphomet's cult.

    Alternately, Hiatea or Iallanis could be used, with them granting spells but not taking a direct hand in their culture (as they aren't actual giants or giant-kin), allowing for the rise of Baphomet's cult to claim that he was a more appropriate and attentive deity for the minotaurs. Alternately, something similar could be worked for Karontor (as a deity of disfigurement), with his lack of attention allowing them to be significantly less evil than verbeeg or fomorians.

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    Markustay
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    Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  03:51:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by LordofBones

    I don't see anything in FC2 that implies the pre-fall baatezu were celestials. They were probably exemplars of law and the predecessors of modern angels, who actually are celestials. Angels in D&D aren't exemplars like the Archons; angels are servants of the Powers of the Upper Planes, while archons are the incarnate of Law and Good (in the sense that the Rilmani are Neutrality, the Modrons are Law, the tanar'ri Chaos and Evil, etc).
    Well, that's the whole thing right there - its hard for me to discuss this stuff, because modern (D&D) terminology isn't quite right.

    What we think of as 'Celestials' now used to be just a class of servitor-level divine beings, answering to the gods, and after many thousands of years (like maybe 40K), they split-off into MANY sub-groups. I'm using the term meaning the original, non-aligned group, not what the word means now (sorry for the confusion). I think of these things more in terms of how Asian religions think of them - all 'spirits' (outsiders) are part of the Celestial Bureaucracy, both good & evil (and everything in-between). The evil ones are just as important in the great scheme of things to the Celestial Emperor (God) as are the good ones, and the more neutrally-minded nature spirits are usually just left to their own devices (but STILL, beholden to the Celestial Emperor and must answer to the Bureaucracy when it calls on them). Part of the reason why I love the lore regarding the Monkey King is because he snubbed all that - he felt he didn't have to answer to anyone.

    Anyhow, that how I picture it in the First World; in the Time Before time. At that time, the Hells (which weren't quite 'the hells' then, because the great Wheel hadn't been built yet) would have had the native Baatorans. Baatezu were something that came later. Perhaps Baatezu are what came about when the invading 'fallen celestials' (I'm almost thinking 'fallen angels' might be more accurate) came to the hells, and started mixing with the Baatorans.

    Maybe I should come up with a new name for the proto-celestials. 'Eternals' would be good, but I am using that for something else already. Exalteds? That might work - I had once used that as an umbrella-term before 4e gave me 'exarch'. So pre-Dawn War we have unaligned 'Exalteds', and when I say 'unaligned', I just mean the whole concepts of alignments wasn't even a thing yet (so some may have been more 'good' or 'evil' than others, but there was no morality to judge that against).

    Later, some Exalted become 'tainted' and are devils. Some elementals are corrupted and become demons. Those are both just 'addresses', though, like if you say you are an American, or British, etc., it doesn't really define much else. So, did something live in the Abyss before the Tanar'ri? Like how Baatorans lived in the Hells (planer 'aborigines')? I'm think the hells may have already existed (albeit in a totally different incarnation), but I believe somewhere it says the Abyss was created as a direct result of the Dawn War. A corrupted piece of the maelstrom, or some-such. That would mean it probably doesn't have aboriginal fiends.

    EDIT:
    The more I think about it, the more I realize I should just be using the 4e term 'Exarch', since that's already a catch-all term for things of that 'power-tier' (between mortal and the divine). So I just came up with this for a table of 'ascension'.

    DvR . Exalted
    0 --- Immortal
    1 --- Blessed
    2 --- Saint
    3 --- Apostle
    4 --- Proxy
    5 --- Chosen

    Called 'angels' in the upper planers, 'fiends' in the lower. Thus, I've relegated anything with the 'arch' prefix to be in the same power category as a lesser god (which solves a problem with Lolth, I suppose, among others). I was looking at the angelic hierarchy a little while ago, and I realized with just a little tweaking I can rework that into D&D's celestial hierarchy.

    Of course, this means Christianity is actually pantheistic... but I already knew that.

    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


    Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2018 04:11:29
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    Tigon
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    Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  08:11:25  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    sorry for my recent absence, that thing mighty demon called 'real life' had its nasty claws dug into me.

    let me add a few thoughts here.

    I read over what everyone has posted and reviewed my notes and noted that the deity I felt was the most natural fit hasnt been mentioned in here (or i missed it), but why has Tempus (Neutral, Domain: War; Portfolio: War) not been considered? God of War and Soldiers seems a natural fit to me. Though perhaps honor in combat would be more fitting for the Minotaur way, the Minotaur way DOES highly center around war/combat. Taking a step down from the higher powers we could also look at The Red Night [i](Lawful Neutral, Domain War; Portfolio: strategy, planning). While Ketor could have taken to the Lady of Strategy, or could have arisen to being somewhat on par with her as she is listed as an Exarch (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Exarch)

    quote:
    Exarchs are beings of extraordinary power.


    Exarchs are often called demigods (but note that exarchs are not gods (as in Demigods) of demipower status (despite the name)) or heroes. Many are ascended mortal servants of greater gods, brought up from the world to serve as agents of their divine masters. Many, but not all, attract worshipers of their own, and they have some ability to grant spells, but are more often simply conduits from the mortal world to the attention of the higher gods.[1]

    The divine hierarchy of a deity has exarchs at the top, just under the deity, and other divine servitors under them (known as proxies in older editions)[2]

    A Chosen is not the same as an exarch, though it is possible for a Chosen to ascend to the rank of exarch.[2]

    An exarch can be any Chosen, Demigod, Saint, archangel, or being of power that pledges their service to a particular Deity. The exarch gains no additional powers from this relationship as they are normally of considerable power already to earn the position.[3]

    For example, the druids of Gulthandor pay homage to the Lion God, but in reality the character's divine spells are being granted by Nobanion's patron, Silvanus. Unlike true deities, exarchs are not bound to live in Astral Dominions with their patrons. Like Nobanion, many choose to live on the Material Plane, more directly engaged in the lives of their mortal followers.[citation needed]


    Likewise, has anyone considered The Battle Father; Uthgar? Would seem easy enough to make the Totem of the Bull - Lawful Neutral fit into his Portfolio. And, post spellplague he became an exarch of Tempus. Would be fairly easy here too to say that Ketor ascended to serving Uthgar and then when Uthgar became an excarch to Tempus, Tempus saw Ketor and gave him his own portfolio directly under him (Tempus, rather than Uthgar) granting him the Portfolio of Honorable Combat.


    On ANOTHER note, has anyone considered that the Minotaurs actually were more of a Primordial creation? If they were, this indeed could be one reason they were absent/hidden for so long... perhaps they were sundered to Abeir way back at the first sundering and, like the Dragonborn only arrived on Toril during the Spellplauge. That might make a lot of this discussion moot(ish) since any history we build here prior to the spell plague would actually have happened on Abeir.

    Thoughts?
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