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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

33 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  18:55:36  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

"Heresy: adherence to religious opinion contrary to church dogma."

Seems to me that claiming an ancient deity is gone and supplanted by some new deity would be the ultimate form of "opinion contrary to church dogma". Centuries of conflicts between Western faiths (along with all their own internal divisions, denominations, and schisms) have been caused by exactly this: each faith attests that only their version of the "one" deity exists and any other versions must therefore be somehow misguided, wrong, or false.

Of course "heretic" and "infidel" and "apostate" and "pagan" each has a distinct meaning which tacitly implies some sort of opposition or rejection of a dominant church/religion. They're less applicable when that religion simply lacks any real presence - in which case words like "unbeliever" or "cult" or "fanatic" tend to be used.



I would agree this is how it is in the RW, and to some extent the FR, but the death and reconstitution of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whoever she really is now, Lathander/Amaunator and Jergal playing tag with various mortals all point to constant change. I mean, Mystra has always been in the FR, but I'm quite sure the Sarruhk didn't give homage to the same Face that wizards do now.

Sam

Edited by - BrennonGoldeye on 30 May 2019 18:56:40
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6820 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  21:21:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).

[/Ayrik]
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1387 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  22:14:19  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's more complicated than that. Even in the Realms, divine support or lack thereof of a specific individual can be very hard to determine.

Look at the religion chapter in Power of Faerun and the discussion of heresies.

--Eric

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).


--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
598 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  12:58:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, the Raven Queen is canon in the Realms as of 5e, and following her new 5e lore, she may have been there by the time of the aearee.

I don't recall the tale in Monster Mythology, but if it involves Pazuzu, it doesn't contradicts what was said in 4e.



With the Raven Queen', it's interesting it was somewhat confirmed she was inspired in part by Greyhawk's Wee Jas, when disusing by who deities of the 4E core pantheon were inspired - from page 11:
quote:
The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon's Hel and Greyhawk's Wee Jas


She is also Lawful Neutral in 5E, like Wee Jas, further cementing the connection (and yes, the Raven Queen has different origins than Wee Jas, but so did Nerull, who was like her a former mortal, and not Pelor's brother. As did other gods, like Bane being born a god, or Kord being the son of the winter goddess Khala, and persumably Zehir, while Oerth Kord was the son of Phaulkon and Syrul etc.)

quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye


I would agree this is how it is in the RW, and to some extent the FR, but the death and reconstitution of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whoever she really is now, Lathander/Amaunator and Jergal playing tag with various mortals all point to constant change. I mean, Mystra has always been in the FR, but I'm quite sure the Sarruhk didn't give homage to the same Face that wizards do now.

Sam



With Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight though, Ed stated the Mystra and Mystryl are part of Midnight now. And that because of that, Midnight feels uncomfortable around Helm, as she remembers the original's Mysta's love of him, but also how he killed her. And that she fears the primal being, that Mystryl is, and with both fears her personality will be lost to Mystra or Mystryl.

After the Sundering, while Midnight is the mainly the Mystra who returned, she has now has the wisdom of the original Mystra, according to Ed.

So with Mystra, she kinda is is the same, but with a new personality being dominant in the fusion. It always reminded me of the situation with Daniel being the new Dream, after Morpheus died, with him being different, yet the same being, and that in a fashion, it was a "change of perspective".

With the Creator races though, I think the goddess of Magic they worshiped, was Lurue though. Ed himself designed Lurue to be the embodiment of magic in his capaign, but TSR decided they need a more human goddess.:
quote:
Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.

The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now.


But seeing the Creator races are inhuman (except cavemen), this would be a perfect fit.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jun 2019 14:09:51
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1332 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  15:34:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas


She is also Lawful Neutral in 5E, like Wee Jas, further cementing the connection (and yes, the Raven Queen has different origins than Wee Jas, but so did Nerull, who was like her a former mortal, and not Pelor's brother. As did other gods, like Bane being born a god, or Kord being the son of the winter goddess Khala, and persumably Zehir, while Oerth Kord was the son of Phaulkon and Syrul etc.)


Well, I guess that stuff of Nerull being brother of Pelor may be from 3.x, as in 4e he is an ascended mortal as well (he killed an earlier deity of death and stole his godhood).

As for the Bane stuff, much of it is part of a goblin myth (ie. Kord and him being brothers), but you have to take into account that Dawn War Bane was designed to be different to FR Bane, as per his article in Dragon 372. It was with 5e and its need to Planescape it all, that they fused DW Bane with his FR counterpart.

As for Lurue, it makes sense, and I've using that alternative as well. Although, perhaps she had a different name during the Days of Thunder.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Jun 2019 15:48:33
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
598 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2019 :  18:52:12  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, I guess that stuff of Nerull being brother of Pelor may be from 3.x, as in 4e he is an ascended mortal as well (he killed an earlier deity of death and stole his godhood).

As for the Bane stuff, much of it is part of a goblin myth (ie. Kord and him being brothers), but you have to take into account that Dawn War Bane was designed to be different to FR Bane, as per his article in Dragon 372. It was with 5e and its need to Planescape it all, that they fused DW Bane with his FR counterpart.

As for Lurue, it makes sense, and I've using that alternative as well. Although, perhaps she had a different name during the Days of Thunder.



I apologize for the confusion, with Bane, Kord, and Nerull and mostly the Raven Queen, I mean the 4E versions of them. I just wanted how different versions of Gods, especilly the 4E, could have different origins, to explain the different origins of the Raven Queen and Wee Jas. again though, many of these could be just legends, and those could become essentially truth via power of belief, making the situation even more confusing.

This is in part, as Wee Jas, has some fairly interesting lore with the original Mystra and Midnight. From On Hallowed Ground:
quote:
The old Mystra of Toril was an ally of Wee Jas, but the new Mystra has managed to fully alienate her. That might be part of the reason Wee Jas has taken a turn for the worse - her only good friend in the cosmos passed on, and was replaced by a berk who claimed the name but didn't pursue the same vision.


Because of that, identifying Wee Jas with Raven Queen, gives her more attachment to Toril via this - as it stated the original Mystra and Wee Jas were very close (ie Wee Jas only friend in the multiverse), and gives some ground for conflict with Midnight.

But about Nerull and Pelor - yes it seems they might have been only made brothers in 3E, or late 2E, but I must research it more.

Especially that Gary Gygax, in his Gord novels revealed Nerull in reality is the Oinoloth/Oinodaemon Infestix, so this might be his plan for Nerull, ie him being a Daemon-God (Infestix), and Oerth! Nerull being one of his aspects/guises.:
http://greyhawkonline.com/gord/outer.html

For the name Lurue used, it could be Yathaghera, at least among LeShay.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jun 2019 18:58:25
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