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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks, Eric. Didn't knew about Syranita.

Are there other sources about her besides Monster Mythology?

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

There was presumably Syranita in some form in the aearee pantheon.

There was presumably Blibdoolpoolp and Ramenos in some form in the batrachi pantheon.

--Eric

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Hey, guys, I'm wondering which gods existed back then in the era of the Creator Races. I know about the World Serpent and its sarrukh incarnations, but what gods worshiped the batrachi, the aearee or the fey?

I believe, the ape-like humans didn't had gods back then, so gods of Netherese origins such as Shar, Selūne and the others shouldn't have existed in that age. Or at least, not in the form and with the names the Netherese later gave them.

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Of all the emergent aspects of the Great Scaled One, two deities in particular attracted the worship of most nagas: Ssharstrune and Shekinester. The former embodied the principles of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness that had precipitated the World Serpents fragmentation. The latter, known as the Naga Queen, became the keeper of the knowledge and wisdom originally held by the World Serpent, preserved within the eternal flame that she guarded.

After the fall of Mhairshaulk, both Ssharstrune and Jazirian, another fragment of the World Serpent, began to court Shekinester. The Naga Queen eventually chose Jazirian and became pregnant by him. Enraged by this decision, Ssharstrune attacked Shekinester, and she was forced to swallow him. In so doing, the Naga Queen took into herself the same destructive element that had fragmented the World Serpent in the first place. As a result, she acquired five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. This event was accompanied by a fivefold division in the naga race, forming the five major subraces now known as dark nagas, guardian nagas, iridescent nagas, spirit nagas, and water nagas.

Upon giving birth to Parrafaire, the Naga Prince, Shekinester expelled Ssharstrunes remains and instructed her offspring to hide away the destructive force that the corpse embodied forever, so that her five-fold aspect could not actually divide her into five separate goddesses. Parrafaire complied with her wishes, and now both he and his mother are venerated as guardians of the naga race.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks, Eric. Didn't knew about Syranita.

Are there other sources about her besides Monster Mythology?

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Not much. Here are the refs from the wiki page.

#8593; Richard Baker, James Wyatt (March 2004). Player's Guide to Faerūn. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 158. ISBN 0-7869-3134-5.
#8593; 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 Carl Sargent (May 1992). Monster Mythology. (TSR, Inc), p. 94. ISBN 1-5607-6362-0.
#8593; Colin McComb (1996). On Hallowed Ground. Edited by Ray Vallese. (TSR, Inc), p. 177. ISBN 0-7869-0430-5.
#8593; Eric L. Boyd (1998). Demihuman Deities. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 94. ISBN 0-7869-1239-1.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Yeah, I was aware of the sarrukh gods, and of the "Ssharstrune/Sharselūne" theory. Shekinester sounds like a positive form of Tiamat, actually...

Anyways, I was wondering if Othea maybe is a really ancient form of Chauntea. I mean, she was part of the giant pantheon, but if we go by the Grand History, she was already on Toril when Annam appeared in this universe. And while giant myth says she is dead, perhaps she was revived and/or transformed into Chauntea by the humans' faith or something. After all, Chauntea is one of the members of the Netherese pantheon.

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The Book provides a fascinating
origin myth relating to dragonkind.
From a close reading of the
text, it becomes obvious that
Asgorath the World-Shaper is a
dragon. The implication-that a
dragon created the universe, and
that dragons were the first creatures
to exist-is quite fascinating.
A further point arises from the sentence
that reads, "And so
Asgorath bent her form around the
Crystal Sun, and touched her
breath to it." In the original
Thorass, the word "breath"-normally
used as a singular or uncountable
noun in this context"
has been given a plural suffix
("breaths"). Is this meant to imply
that Asgorath is a multi-headed
dragon?
The text is clearer when it comes
to the "Spawn of Asgorath." There
can be no doubt that these creatures
are red dragons. The following
sentences hint that this
religion holds the red dragon as
the most important species of
dragon. All others would "later depart
from . . . purity." When the Renegade ("bahmat"
in the original Thorass) duplicates
the actions of Asgorath, the dragons
that arise are "not of the pure
red," but rather "colored . . . like
the unliving metals." The implication
here is obvious: The Spawn of
the Renegade are the metallic-
and primarily good-aligned-dragons,
What the Book of the World
contains is not only an origin myth
of dragons - which makes it important
enough in its own right"
but also one of the few surviving
evil-oriented origin myths.
It is easy to speculate, based on
this myth. The plural inflection of
the word "breath" might be taken
as implying multiple heads; the
Thorass word for renegade is
"bahmat." It seems almost too
close a correlation- can Asgorath
be Tiamat and the Renegade be
Bahamut?

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Anyways, I was wondering if Othea maybe is a really ancient form of Chauntea. I mean, she was part of the giant pantheon, but if we go by the Grand History, she was already on Toril when Annam appeared in this universe. And while giant myth says she is dead, perhaps she was revived and/or transformed into Chauntea by the humans' faith or something. After all, Chauntea is one of the members of the Netherese pantheon.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But well, that's why those tales are labeled as "myths" and not "actual facts".

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But well, that's why those tales are labeled as "myths" and not "actual facts".

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm with you on the myths not being taken as fact, but why can you not die and then become a God. Becoming a God requires belief, people can believe in you even if you are dead.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I'm beginning to think that many of the earlier gods in the Realms were manifestations of the World Serpent.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

The Ahriman-Jazirian myth only appeared in Planeslore, not in Realmslore. And in Planeslore the myth only appeared in one book (A Guide To Hell) while it was conspicuously absent from all others (even though many of these involved Heaven and Hell and Asmodeus).

I'm personally disinclined to put much weight on the myth. If it fits into other Planeslore that's great, if it doesn't then it's gone while preference is given to a larger body of self-consistent Planeslore which exists without it. And if it's tangential to Planeslore then it's basically entirely irrelevant to Realmslore. You gotta draw the line somewhere because if you don't then you'll have to find ways to shoehorn Sigil and the Blood War and Asmodeus and Vecna and so many other things into Realmslore which just won't fit without displacing or overwriting something else.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

The Ahriman-Jazirian myth only appeared in Planeslore, not in Realmslore. And in Planeslore the myth only appeared in one book (A Guide To Hell) while it was conspicuously absent from all others (even though many of these involved Heaven and Hell and Asmodeus).

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Originally posted by Ayrik

@Baltas ... lol no need to apologize for correcting me.

I'm very familiar with 2E Planescape. Not so much with the 3E adaptation of it. Not at all with the 4E counterpart. So I'm sure Planescape has changed and changed again, not everything I said about it necessarily true anymore.

Those assertions of Asmodeus=Ahriman do seem deliberately ambiguous, though. I'm guessing WotC had their own half-developed ideas but were careful to not limit their options by directly validating or directly invalidating the older lore. Asmodeus has always been a kind of cool and popular part of D&D ... Asmodeus is sometimes a problematic and controversial part of D&D.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

Maybe, Aerdrie Faenya is from Aearee time too? Depending on how the Avariel appeared. She is "Winged Mother", after all. And remains very close to Syranita.

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Originally posted by Barastir

Wooly is right, its cover is that of a generic AD&D sourcebook, without the Planescape logo or any related art. Besides, I wonder why the work of Gray Richardson was not mentioned here this far. He has the best writings on the creator races, including some passages on their gods.

EDIT: You may want to check out the thread "The Aearee: Secrets of the Avian Creator Race" here at the keep.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I don't think so. Sarrukh myths had the World Serpent led the "elder gods" (the gods of the age, I guess?) against the primordials, so I guess it wouldn't be wise to worship the enemies of your god. Unless you're a member of some "evil" cult. Likewise, the batrachi didn't knew about them until they released Asgorath and some other primordials from their prison... and well, Asgorath ended up killing them. The aearee may have worshiped some of them (air-themed primordials, such as Akadi), but is highly unlikely because at that point the primordials were on Abeir.

There is another point here, as well. The specific 4e products for the Forgotten Realms categorized Asgorath as a primordial, while Io is categorized as deity in core 4e products (and in the SCAG, a 5e product). Likewise, while Io is stated to have been killed by a primordial in the Dawn War (creating/elevating Bahamut and Tiamat to godhood; the tale is conflicting), Asgorath is stated to be alive and well, as one of the few "primordial deities" that are worshiped in the current era... And well, we know Asgorath and Io are the SAME being (I even asked Ed about this, and he said "yes, they are one and the same"). That's what makes current dragon mythology so confusing...

But well, that's why those tales are labeled as "myths" and not "actual facts".

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Originally posted by Ayrik

"Heresy: adherence to religious opinion contrary to church dogma."

Seems to me that claiming an ancient deity is gone and supplanted by some new deity would be the ultimate form of "opinion contrary to church dogma". Centuries of conflicts between Western faiths (along with all their own internal divisions, denominations, and schisms) have been caused by exactly this: each faith attests that only their version of the "one" deity exists and any other versions must therefore be somehow misguided, wrong, or false.

Of course "heretic" and "infidel" and "apostate" and "pagan" each has a distinct meaning which tacitly implies some sort of opposition or rejection of a dominant church/religion. They're less applicable when that religion simply lacks any real presence - in which case words like "unbeliever" or "cult" or "fanatic" tend to be used.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

But there is an important difference between RW and FR ...

A deity in the Realms grants followers and priests magic. Spells, granted powers, miracles. Direct manifestations with very obvious and real results. Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Mystra might be different individuals assuming the divine portfolio of magic ... but there wasn't any ambiguous uncertainty each time a new goddess displaced an old goddess ... those who worshipped the "real" goddess got spells while those who worshipped the "dead" goddess did not get spells.

It can be more complex in the Realms when a deity continues to grant spells to all faithful on all sides after a schism of faith divides the church. Or when a deity (like Leira, Cyric, Mask, Shar) deliberately misleads worshippers with false/impersonated faiths.
But for the most part it seems fairly straightforward. In the Realms there's almost always a "true" deity, the (non)existence of the deity can almost always be proven (or disproven), the validity (or falseness) of the faith can almost always be confirmed (or exposed).

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, the Raven Queen is canon in the Realms as of 5e, and following her new 5e lore, she may have been there by the time of the aearee.

I don't recall the tale in Monster Mythology, but if it involves Pazuzu, it doesn't contradicts what was said in 4e.

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The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon's Hel and Greyhawk's Wee Jas

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Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye


I would agree this is how it is in the RW, and to some extent the FR, but the death and reconstitution of Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight/Whoever she really is now, Lathander/Amaunator and Jergal playing tag with various mortals all point to constant change. I mean, Mystra has always been in the FR, but I'm quite sure the Sarruhk didn't give homage to the same Face that wizards do now.

Sam

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Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.

The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now.

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Originally posted by Baltas


She is also Lawful Neutral in 5E, like Wee Jas, further cementing the connection (and yes, the Raven Queen has different origins than Wee Jas, but so did Nerull, who was like her a former mortal, and not Pelor's brother. As did other gods, like Bane being born a god, or Kord being the son of the winter goddess Khala, and persumably Zehir, while Oerth Kord was the son of Phaulkon and Syrul etc.)

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