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Qilintha
Seeker
76 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2020 : 10:18:09
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As topic suggests, Are there Chosen of Mystra of fiendish heritage? Demons,Devils? It's clear being Manshoon and Sammaster chosen of Mystra that the Lady of Secrets is neutral to her core soo...is there the possibility? Like Abraxas , a demon lord from the Fiendish Codex.
quote:
Abraxas was a demon lord also called The Unfathomable. He busied himself finding out more about the workings of magic, discovering magic words and spells, unearthing lost arcane secrets, and finding and creating powerful talismans. His layer of the Abyss was the 17th; known as Death's Reward.[1][2]
I know he is not a demon directly connected to the Realms , just throwing an example. Did Ed ever answer a question about it?
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Grumpy Hamatula
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2020 : 12:41:13
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I'd be curious about this one as well.
Off the top of my head, I would think that baatezu and tanar'ri wouldn't be eligible to be Chosen, as they are, by definition, not mortals. However, "fiendish heritage" opens up the possibility of half-fiends/cambions, tieflings, and the like, the latter of which are certainly considered mortals.
On a more general level, I tend to view Mystra as a neutral arbiter who always favors what advances the Art and preserves the Weave, so it would be possible that her goals could intersect those of a fiendish faction from time to time. Dispater, for instance, is known to host the Forbidden Library in Dis, IIRC, and many a mage has gone down an evil path to gain access to its secrets. In addition, at least according to the AD&D 2e Guide to Hell, baatezu spellcasters who use the Art (instead of innate abilities) do exist, even if they are relatively rare.
In terms of personal experiences as a DM, I have run a campaign in the past in which Mystra's goals temporarily aligned with those of a Baator-aligned faction. The baatezu and their mortal agents were trying to foil some tanar'ri scheming that threatened the Weave, so Mystra was willing to provide some very conditional assistance to that faction and/or to accept its conditional support of her agents' activities. The alliance was a tense one, and it was certainly temporary, but my rationale for it was that preserving the Weave trumped any moral conflicts in that particular instance. |
Edited by - Grumpy Hamatula on 13 Feb 2020 12:43:55 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2020 : 23:46:33
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Seeker Qilintha,
Neutral...I can get behind that as a colloquial definition of what Mystra really is, which is what drives at this whole idea of fiendish, etc.: her ethic is that of a teleologist, or in other words, she is worried about what happens in the end, not what happens on the way. She is most certainly not worried about considerations such as virtue (think Eudaimonia in ethics, which is a subset of Aristotelian ethics), or what happens between point A and point B.
The reason I bring that up is, though I do not believe there to be any sort of fiendish Chosen now, you could easily have a fiendish Chosen in my opinion. I mean, look who she has had as a Chosen thus far: Khelben? My god, the man is a sociopath, and immoral as it comes to any sort of ethic that would relate to a deontological ethic in life.
Mystra is very much morally ambiguous, but then again, there isn't anything wrong with that in that sort of "god" perspective. She is there to fulfill a role, nothing more. Ao is happy when she makes the Weave go.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
As topic suggests, Are there Chosen of Mystra of fiendish heritage? Demons,Devils? It's clear being Manshoon and Sammaster chosen of Mystra that the Lady of Secrets is neutral to her core soo...is there the possibility? Like Abraxas , a demon lord from the Fiendish Codex.
quote:
Abraxas was a demon lord also called The Unfathomable. He busied himself finding out more about the workings of magic, discovering magic words and spells, unearthing lost arcane secrets, and finding and creating powerful talismans. His layer of the Abyss was the 17th; known as Death's Reward.[1][2]
I know he is not a demon directly connected to the Realms , just throwing an example. Did Ed ever answer a question about it?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 00:36:50
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None have been revealed, but if you had to ask me for a candidate, I might suggest Shangalar the Black.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 00:59:27
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Eric,
I might say hell yes! :)
I agree with you. He would be an amazing Chosen of Mystra. I mean, Mystra is not good, and the Chosen are not good as a requirement (whatever good is). I am of the mind that back in the 13th century, Nybor of Thay should have been. She was well known for creating spells, some of which are known to be of the most powerful enchantment spells of the day.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
None have been revealed, but if you had to ask me for a candidate, I might suggest Shangalar the Black.
--Eric
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 04:23:16
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Mystra is a "human" goddess. Made by humans, for humans.
Fiends already tend to worship other Powers (the sorts who would hang out in Lower Planes and are evil-aligned enough for fiends to find appealing). Or maybe they worship false Powers, Archfiends, monstrous abominations, etc. My point is that fiends don't really find Mystra attractive - though I suppose a cambion, alu-demon, tiefling, or other human-blooded individual could firmly embrace their humanity and reject their fiendish heritage. (Realmslore does have a few such characters though they're hardly the stuff of semi-divine exarchs and things tend to turn out rather badly for them, Magadon is a fine example.)
Why stop at fiends? Why not elven "Chosen", dwarven "Chosen", even orcish "Chosen"? All these races practice magic in some form or another and Mystra's portfolio includes all magic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 04:26:47
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Great Reader Ayrik,
Hell, I cannot disagree with you on that front. Looking at early Realms, it was painfully human centric. Of course, it is what it is. I am not beating up on Ed. It is just how and where people's minds went back then. Now days, I think people are more cognizant of other races, ethnicities, etc.
I completely agree they should get that all figured out for the other gods.
Great point.
Now, to start the cage match: which author(s) or designer(s)?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Mystra is a "human" goddess. Made by humans, for humans.
Fiends already tend to worship other Powers (the sorts who would hang out in Lower Planes and are evil-aligned enough for fiends to find appealing). Or maybe they worship false Powers, Archfiends, monstrous abominations, etc. My point is that fiends don't really find Mystra attractive - though I suppose a cambion, alu-demon, tiefling, or other human-blooded individual could firmly embrace their humanity and reject their fiendish heritage. (Realmslore does have a few such characters though they're hardly the stuff of semi-divine exarchs and things tend to turn out rather badly for them, Magadon is a fine example.)
Why stop at fiends? Why not elven "Chosen", dwarven "Chosen", even orcish "Chosen"? All these races practice magic in some form or another and Mystra's portfolio includes all magic.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2020 : 21:41:14
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Probably no, since in the end a fiend is just a less-than-divine creature "of the plane", and unlike planar mortals subject to transformations. A deity "adopting" one would probably turn it into something more compatible.
More importantly, it seems to be a reasonable assumption that all Chosen are Primes, since their job is to hold and tend the Weave, which is on Prime/Realmspace.
Mystra could have proxies for running important errands out on the planes, but that's different. Azuth does, for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why not elven "Chosen", dwarven "Chosen", even orcish "Chosen"? All these races practice magic in some form or another and Mystra's portfolio includes all magic.
Because she does it for a certain purpose, not to collect a herbarium. 
Orcs and Dwarves traditionally don't do arcane magic. Dwarves even used to have involuntary magic resistance.
There were at least 3 elven Chosen.
Duethaea Lauraunfeir - deceased.
Embrae Aloevan - gone mad (though not as fast and disastrous as Sammaster).
[spoiler] [spoiler] - was of uncertain "alive" status on transformation (the day Myth Drannor's mythal was made) and gone on to exist as sometimes-corporeal "ghost in the mythal".
Also, half-elf Alvaerle Tasundrym, retired/promoted Magister. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 00:23:55
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Master TBeholder,
Great point on the Elven Chosen.
It does seem though humans being the ones with the most amount of Chosen, that there is a large and disproportionate amount of power tossed their way, especially when you look at Dwarves as you just made a point about.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Probably no, since in the end a fiend is just a less-than-divine creature "of the plane", and unlike planar mortals subject to transformations. A deity "adopting" one would probably turn it into something more compatible.
More importantly, it seems to be a reasonable assumption that all Chosen are Primes, since their job is to hold and tend the Weave, which is on Prime/Realmspace.
Mystra could have proxies for running important errands out on the planes, but that's different. Azuth does, for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why not elven "Chosen", dwarven "Chosen", even orcish "Chosen"? All these races practice magic in some form or another and Mystra's portfolio includes all magic.
Because she does it for a certain purpose, not to collect a herbarium.
Orcs and Dwarves traditionally don't do arcane magic. Dwarves even used to have involuntary magic resistance.
There were at least 3 elven Chosen.
Duethaea Lauraunfeir - deceased.
Embrae Aloevan - gone mad (though not as fast and disastrous as Sammaster).
[spoiler] [spoiler] - was of uncertain "alive" status on transformation (the day Myth Drannor's mythal was made) and gone on to exist as sometimes-corporeal "ghost in the mythal".
Also, half-elf Alvaerle Tasundrym, retired/promoted Magister.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 01:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
[spoiler] [spoiler] - was of uncertain "alive" status on transformation (the day Myth Drannor's mythal was made) and gone on to exist as sometimes-corporeal "ghost in the mythal".
Missed this reference TBeholder. Care to share?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2020 : 02:27:50
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Master TBeholder,
That just seems ominous the way that question came from Great Reader Krashos, haha.
I am interested as well though. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Probably no, since in the end a fiend is just a less-than-divine creature "of the plane", and unlike planar mortals subject to transformations. A deity "adopting" one would probably turn it into something more compatible.
More importantly, it seems to be a reasonable assumption that all Chosen are Primes, since their job is to hold and tend the Weave, which is on Prime/Realmspace.
Mystra could have proxies for running important errands out on the planes, but that's different. Azuth does, for that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why not elven "Chosen", dwarven "Chosen", even orcish "Chosen"? All these races practice magic in some form or another and Mystra's portfolio includes all magic.
Because she does it for a certain purpose, not to collect a herbarium.
Orcs and Dwarves traditionally don't do arcane magic. Dwarves even used to have involuntary magic resistance.
There were at least 3 elven Chosen.
Duethaea Lauraunfeir - deceased.
Embrae Aloevan - gone mad (though not as fast and disastrous as Sammaster).
[spoiler] [spoiler] - was of uncertain "alive" status on transformation (the day Myth Drannor's mythal was made) and gone on to exist as sometimes-corporeal "ghost in the mythal".
Also, half-elf Alvaerle Tasundrym, retired/promoted Magister.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 12:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Missed this reference TBeholder. Care to share?
A certain elven noble who in Elminster in Myth Drannor got impaled on a statue's sword.
But then was seen running around messing with people. And showering fiends with silver fire. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 15:20:09
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Master TBeholder,
Ahhh....of course. Yeah, Laeral and that damn Crown of Horns. Rough times for her.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Missed this reference TBeholder. Care to share?
A certain elven noble who in Elminster in Myth Drannor got impaled on a statue's sword.
But then was seen running around messing with people. And showering fiends with silver fire.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 02:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
Ahhh....of course. Yeah, Laeral and that damn Crown of Horns. Rough times for her.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Missed this reference TBeholder. Care to share?
A certain elven noble who in Elminster in Myth Drannor got impaled on a statue's sword.
But then was seen running around messing with people. And showering fiends with silver fire.
That would be Symrustar Auglamyr, who killed Malimshaer during the Weeping War. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 02:29:18
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Seeker Delnyn,
Are you talking about the battle at Shadusk Glade?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
Ahhh....of course. Yeah, Laeral and that damn Crown of Horns. Rough times for her.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Missed this reference TBeholder. Care to share?
A certain elven noble who in Elminster in Myth Drannor got impaled on a statue's sword.
But then was seen running around messing with people. And showering fiends with silver fire.
That would be Symrustar Auglamyr, who killed Malimshaer during the Weeping War.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 03:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Delnyn,
Are you talking about the battle at Shadusk Glade?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
Ahhh....of course. Yeah, Laeral and that damn Crown of Horns. Rough times for her.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Missed this reference TBeholder. Care to share?
A certain elven noble who in Elminster in Myth Drannor got impaled on a statue's sword.
But then was seen running around messing with people. And showering fiends with silver fire.
That would be Symrustar Auglamyr, who killed Malimshaer during the Weeping War.
Aye. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 05:32:19
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Seeker Delnyn,
I may be misremembering here, but she didn't die by impalement. She died when she immolated dude and herself in the process. As I recall, his skeletal remains crashed near someone.
Am I not recalling that correctly?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Delnyn,
Are you talking about the battle at Shadusk Glade?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
Ahhh....of course. Yeah, Laeral and that damn Crown of Horns. Rough times for her.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Missed this reference TBeholder. Care to share?
A certain elven noble who in Elminster in Myth Drannor got impaled on a statue's sword.
But then was seen running around messing with people. And showering fiends with silver fire.
That would be Symrustar Auglamyr, who killed Malimshaer during the Weeping War.
Aye.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 09:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Delnyn,
I may be misremembering here, but she didn't die by impalement. She died when she immolated dude and herself in the process. As I recall, his skeletal remains crashed near someone.
Am I not recalling that correctly?
Best regards,
Yes, she died. Mystra subsequently resurrected her and made her a Chosen. *Insert heavy sigh* |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 13:37:30
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| What about Mystryl? Larloch was one of her Chosen. Maybe she had some "Fiendish Chosen". |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 16:28:55
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Seeker Delnyn,
Hmm...I believe I am confusing something here. I thought you were correcting me on Master TBeholder's comment regarding a certain Elven noble?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Delnyn,
I may be misremembering here, but she didn't die by impalement. She died when she immolated dude and herself in the process. As I recall, his skeletal remains crashed near someone.
Am I not recalling that correctly?
Best regards,
Yes, she died. Mystra subsequently resurrected her and made her a Chosen. *Insert heavy sigh*
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 19:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Delnyn,
Hmm...I believe I am confusing something here. I thought you were correcting me on Master TBeholder's comment regarding a certain Elven noble?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Seeker Delnyn,
I may be misremembering here, but she didn't die by impalement. She died when she immolated dude and herself in the process. As I recall, his skeletal remains crashed near someone.
Am I not recalling that correctly?
Best regards,
Yes, she died. Mystra subsequently resurrected her and made her a Chosen. *Insert heavy sigh*
Too bad I donated my copies of the Elminster series and The Fall of Myth Drannor. Lady Auglamyr was introduced in Elminster in Myth Drannor, but that book did not delve into the Weeping War. The elven noble should be someone else. My apologies to the premature identification. -Delnyn |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2020 : 20:28:54
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Great Reader Brimstone,
That doesn't seem like a bad consideration to look at. It makes you wonder how that would have come about though, specifically.
Thoughts?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
What about Mystryl? Larloch was one of her Chosen. Maybe she had some "Fiendish Chosen".
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Fiendish Chosen of Mystra
