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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2017 :  18:25:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Love our ugly baby, dammit!

Anyhow, I just realized something - why didn't they just repurpose the original name of the city - call the old one 'Songhal' again, and the new one 'Sarshel'? (even though I just figure-out we never actually needed a new one). Use a name we already had, rather than all this 'new and 'Old' stuff (especially since there already WAS a 'New Sarshel' across the Easting Reach!)

When I re-do it*, I am just going to have it as one large, sprawling community, with the older section being referred to as 'Songhal' (and given that we now have two 'Dead/New Sarshels', I am just going to call the whole thing - New and old - 'Greater Sarshel', or simply, 'Sarshel', as most of the people who live there would).

EDIT:
Thanks for sending that, Zero.

EDIT2:
Holy crap (sorry mods), is THAT ever going to be easy to fix! I almost think they thought it through!



*Thinking in terms of 5e here, so this may never see the light of day. one of my many, many 'mental exercises' that help me keep track of whats going on everywhere).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 18:32:07
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2017 :  21:00:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

There is a map of New Sarchel in the LFR adventures. If you want it, I can gladly give it to you. Warning, it will cause you a headache. The two Sarchels are nearly one another.
Now that I've worked it all out mathematically, it actually makes sense that most of the cities would have been little affected (in the long run). In fact, their existing docks could have been extending (with ramps and stairs, as well) to extend out further, and be lower. I'm sure a few new buildings would get built closer to the new waterline (because hauling all that crap up and down those ramps would be a pain... although they have invented the block & tackle...), but the existing structures/town would have no problem staying put. A few hundred feet further away isn't going to make them abandon entire cities.

What DOESN'T make sense are the few it did badly affect. All this time and I thought they would have had to move the settlements for the ports to work, and that wasn't the case at all. The 'waterfront district' would have just extended into the new area, is all. Thus, moving Sarshel (that map Zero sent us) made no sense - they couldn't just walk the few extra feet? My thoughts now are that 'Old Sarshel' would have just become 'Olde Towne' and NOT have been completely abandoned.

Unless some demons ate the original inhabitants... but then why even build there again? I'm very confused.


In case anyone is having trouble picturing what I mean by all this, I couldn't find an official-type elevation map that would demonstrate what I want, but I did find a RW real estate map that will work PERFECTLY. If you hit the link, look at the house on the left - lets say thats a house in (Old) Sarshel, near the water. The original waterline would have come up to the right-hand edge of those trees just to the right of that house (if you can make it out, there is even an arrow pointing to an old elevation line that says "Niveau Actuel"; thats where our water would have been pre-Spellplague). Then, post-Sundering(2.0), the water would be precisely where you see it there on the far right. That right-hand structure should be almost 40' tall by itself, top to bottom, and the roof still falls out below the bottom of the left-hand house! (and I know this, because I opened the pic in GIMP to make sure). And the bottom of the basement level is still around 30' above the sea level there.

So after a decade of bellyaching about how 'stupid the ports are' post-Spellplague, it turns out, the effect should not have been all that great. I was wrrrr.... wrrrr... I can't say it.

Lets go with 'inaccurate'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2017 21:06:20
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
717 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2017 :  23:09:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just read the adventure that map came from. Its the last adventure of the LFR Impiltur's series, and its about a goblin/monster invasion to New Sarchel (that's why they give you a map, to help you with the siege). It have three potential endings. You either save the city and kill Morthak, a balor that is mentioned in the 4e Players' Guide; or the city is either destroyed or captured by Morthak and its monsters. The Grand Council survives in all endings. In the bad ones, they just relocate to Lyrabar.

There is no hint of what ending is the canon one, as the SCAG doesn't mention Sarchel nor other Impilturan city.

I also found the rules and oaths of the Impilturan demon hunters in another adventure (an adventure that is more interesting than the one about the siege; in this, you have to work/compete with another demon hunting team from Lyrabar; the NPCs are kinda interesting... better that Lord Pettygrew... yeah, actual NPC name. Is one of the Lords of the Council in the siege adventure). Those seem interesting for paladins and the like.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Sep 2017 23:25:57
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4908 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2017 :  23:29:12  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Love our ugly baby, dammit!

Anyhow, I just realized something - why didn't they just repurpose the original name of the city - call the old one 'Songhal' again, and the new one 'Sarshel'? (even though I just figure-out we never actually needed a new one). Use a name we already had, rather than all this 'new and 'Old' stuff (especially since there already WAS a 'New Sarshel' across the Easting Reach!)

When I re-do it*, I am just going to have it as one large, sprawling community, with the older section being referred to as 'Songhal' (and given that we now have two 'Dead/New Sarshels', I am just going to call the whole thing - New and old - 'Greater Sarshel', or simply, 'Sarshel', as most of the people who live there would).

EDIT:
Thanks for sending that, Zero.

EDIT2:
Holy crap (sorry mods), is THAT ever going to be easy to fix! I almost think they thought it through!



*Thinking in terms of 5e here, so this may never see the light of day. one of my many, many 'mental exercises' that help me keep track of whats going on everywhere).



I fixed the Songhal/Sarshel snafu in my Impiltur article in Dragon #346. The former is very much a separate settlement a little down the road from Filur. It also houses Tower Torfell, one of the three great military fortresses of Impiltur (not counting Ilmwatch itself).

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  04:17:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, as I was working on my continental map this morning (trying to 'fill in' the region you're interested in), I noticed that (using my own, old Impiltur map as a reference... and I realize I got those little villages in the wrong spot LOL). No worries - we'll fix EVERYTHING this time around.

So I spent the morning on that, and I spent a good chunk of the evening finding ship silhouettes that I can trace and scale down (which took a few hours because I LOVE ships). But in the little bit of time I had in the afternoon... I almost completed the Sarshel map.

And thats WITH figuring-in the 5e map, AND adding all sorts of goodies (like small islands in Sarshel Bay... they'll be self-explanatory). And although I'm working in color (its just visually easier for me), I took what I had thus-far and converted it to greyscale, and it looks like it came right out of an old sourcebook.

Of course, they'll still be lots of back-&-forth, and I'll have to add a key and a scale, and all the numbered locales you'll want. But you should have something to look at tomorrow. I was thinking about 'cheating' and saying the newer part of town was laid-out by civil engineers (because straight roads are SO much easier to add buildings to), but since this is a small settlement, I figure I'll save that for somewhere where its really gonna save time.

Oh, and you can overlay the map onto the 4e one and everything works-out, even the harbor area (I just had to assume they built REALLY big buildings during the 'Lost Century', because if you compare those building-sizes to the area they claim was 'Old Sarshel', it just didn't make sense. Not so much 'tall', but rather, each of those buildings should house multiple residences and/or shops. Maybe they had giants helping them (or Firblgs, Ogres, Goliaths, etc).

Which of course you need not worry about George, because you're still back in 3e.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2017 04:20:43
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5983 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  13:46:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmph. So pretty-much the only countries that were actually affected by the water-level drop (as far as I can tell thus-far) were Turmish and Impiltur. Weird.




What I found hilarious about all of that is that the water level drop caused Laothkund and Soorenar to drown...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5983 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  13:50:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I just read the adventure that map came from. Its the last adventure of the LFR Impiltur's series, and its about a goblin/monster invasion to New Sarchel (that's why they give you a map, to help you with the siege). It have three potential endings. You either save the city and kill Morthak, a balor that is mentioned in the 4e Players' Guide; or the city is either destroyed or captured by Morthak and its monsters. The Grand Council survives in all endings. In the bad ones, they just relocate to Lyrabar.

There is no hint of what ending is the canon one, as the SCAG doesn't mention Sarchel nor other Impilturan city.

I also found the rules and oaths of the Impilturan demon hunters in another adventure (an adventure that is more interesting than the one about the siege; in this, you have to work/compete with another demon hunting team from Lyrabar; the NPCs are kinda interesting... better that Lord Pettygrew... yeah, actual NPC name. Is one of the Lords of the Council in the siege adventure). Those seem interesting for paladins and the like.



Just wondering, this Impiltur line of adventures for LFR... they ever go into the Citadel of Conjurers?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  15:04:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EDIT:
Man, did this wind up in the wrong thread. I hadn't realized how off-topic we headed; my apologies.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

What I found hilarious about all of that is that the water level drop caused Laothkund and Soorenar to drown...
Whereas I was trying to figure-out ways coastal settlements could have survived (and stayed ports), now I find myself having to spin the lore in the opposite direction... {sigh}

When the Underchasm opened, ENORMOUS amounts of water was moving around. Places as far away as Katashaka would have been affected (ocean currents would have shifted, etc). Areas where 'deep access' was avaialble got hit the worst, because the most amount of water could move through those regions (and gouge-out great swaths of land). Shallower areas were actually 'saved' by this, because the water receded faster then the channel could stay full - this is how I picture the dragonmere being (which was probably 'Dragon Lake' for awhile, until they cut a channel or created a canal in 4e). The Moonsea would have been similarly affected - The Lis would have been increased in overall width, because the silty/muddy bottom (which was always a problem) would have kept caving back in along the sides, which would have made it get wider, rather then deeper. Plus, the Moonsea has gates that lead to the plane of water (I just found that out!), so as fast as the water poured-out, it would have poured back in. There may have been a time when smaller bodies like these became tidal-locked, or their water levels dropped precariously, but things would have leveled-off as water from elsewhere began to shift toward the underchasm (the seas are almost all connected, so water-droppage in one region would only been temporary, as the water from the rest of the world shifted in that direction). In fact, once the Inner Sea connected to the great sea to the south (which it did, for a time, through The Lake of Salt), the Sea of Fallen Stars should have slowed its drainage exponentially. The Alamber Sea would have been the only one to continue to get the crap beat out of it (which is reflected in the 4e geography, and will be in the 5e geography as well - it was just TOO badly damaged there).

And unlike the other big inland seas/lakes (Dragonmere, Moonsea, Brightstar Lake, etc), The Lake of steam had a nice, DEEP channel and the water had no trouble pouring out at an alarming rate, hence its continued (depleted) condition throughout the 'Lost Century'. On my 5e continental map, I put the coast there back (mostly) to how it was, but I left swamp-land where those lands were underwater for a hundred years, so even though it isn't technically 'water' anymore (because Ao fixed stuff}, it still had a lasting affect. Same with the Deepwash/Lake Shalane. Needless to say, the local Scalyfolk are very happy about the situation.

And thats the spin I am using now, which is pretty much what I was saying before, except I switched around which placed were affected the most. As a guy who has spent a good chunk of his life 'finding leaks', you'd be amazed at some of the things I've seen water do. It will ALWAYS find a path, and it will always travel the path of least resistance, even if it has to go WAY out of its way to do so. The problem with places like the southern coast of Faerūn was that they got hit with a ginormous tidal wave (maybe multiple times) after Halruaa 'blew up'. Once the water rushed in, it had its path, and it didn't want to give that up. Sandy areas (like around the Golden Waters) and places with loose topsoil literally got 'washed away', and couldn't come back. Its wasn't just the water levels in those areas, it was the land itself got lowered. Then water just continued to pour across the top of them as it moved about (thanks to the underchasm, and other similar phenomena).

I mean seriously, we had entire sub-continents disappearing (Maztica) and new ones appearing (Laerakond) - I'm pretty sure that would have created some major waves. The underchasm wasn't the only thin affecting water-movement... at first. In reality, more than half the population of the planet should have died, the way the eco-systems should have been thrown into turmoil.

Also, everyone in the Underdark should be an aquatic race now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2017 15:13:51
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1189 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  17:22:02  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, been saying this for years now: Coastal Druids in the realms are probably fed up with all the running around chasing the ecological catastrophes.

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  17:57:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which (here I go again, 'patching' 4e/5e lore...) makes the whole thing with the Emerald Enclave becoming 'monolithic' during the 'Lost century' make a whole lot of sense, actually. They went around finding all the other Druid circles everywhere, and organized them all under one banner... which is actually how druids were supposed to work 1e/2e (before 3e changed them into weird shapeshifters). In fact, their magic may have been one of the more stable types, tapping into the Raw 'life energy' (magic) of the world, which means they may even have indirect connection to Ao (who obviously doesn't need the Weave either - he just manipulates the 'Raw Forces' around him). In fact, you could look at the Overgod of a sphere as the representation (manifestation) of the Sphere itself - its 'nature', so to speak.

If we look around (in 5e), we may find wherever the world isn't quite done 'patching itself', there are a group of druids nearby 'shepherding' the local ecology to hasten the healing. I recall someone saying something about Grumbar (and maybe some other elemental lords?) still filling-in some 'holes' at the beginning of 5e, so it must have been a monumental task (since even Ao and the EL's working together haven't completed things yet).

In other words (and I am stealing a line from my old business slogan, sort-of), 'the gods' may be able to build a house, but only the druids can make it a home.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
717 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2017 :  19:37:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Just wondering, this Impiltur line of adventures for LFR... they ever go into the Citadel of Conjurers?



Nope. The place its not even mentioned in 4e sources.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Veritas
Learned Scribe

203 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2017 :  19:41:58  Show Profile  Visit Veritas's Homepage Send Veritas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Never fear, the Heltharns learned their lessons after the death of a spate of princes prior to the Imbrar II. When the Spellplague hit, Imbrar II was killed and the realm was beset once again by a host of fiends and an attack by their old foes the hobgoblins, the heir at the time - his cousin Delimbrar (once of the Council of Lords) was hustled away by magic, faraway from the kingdom. In hindsight it was a bad call on the part of the Crown, because without a real leader the kingdom disintegrated pretty quickly and there was nothing to come back to for a long 7 or so winters as various power groups within the region pulled together and beat off the invaders, Sarshel at the forefront of the effort. That struggle was a bitter one however, and left the realm a disjointed, angry and disaffected place with the city-states going it alone and loath to lend aid to their neighbours and a huge rift emerging between the "northern faction" lead by Sarshel and the "southern faction" lead by Lyrabar. Subtle enquiries regarding the "return of the king" gained little currency and it was feared (correctly) that Delimbrar returning to the realm would mean a swift death sentence. So he never returned. His grandson Imphras is now the titular king-in-exile (Imphras VI) but whether he will ever make a return to the kingdom is doubtful. He will only do so if he manages to obtain strong backing either externally or internally and neither of those have eventuated to date.

-- George Krashos



I'd just like to add that this little bit of loresmithing changed the entire direction of where I was taking the campaign, and elements here are crucial to the arc my intrepid heroes are blindly flailing their way into. Thanks again, George.

That aside, "New Sarshel" and "Sarshel" looked close enouugh proximally that I'm merely treating them as one city, with the "New" brand coming more from Sarshel's efforts to capitalize on the changing water levels from the Spellplague onwards, and as something of a publciity effort now that old "New Sarshel" is currently making for splendid housing for fish and other scaly things that make their homes beneath the waves.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
717 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2017 :  20:29:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We now have New New Sarchel, that is like a fusion of New and Old Sarchels. And, in the next RSE that affects the area, they will built New New New Sarchel

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14187 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2017 :  20:52:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The map I am working on takes into account the LFR one, and is a 'blend', of sorts, even though its 'the past'. There are certain aspects that remain consistent on both maps. When I am done I'd be happy to share the hybrid map I sent to GK, to show any of you how I did what I did. Basically, you should be able to take my map and fit it 'into' the LFR one.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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