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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 10:35:06
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Prior to becoming the frog-like "Batrachi," the aquatic creator race was an octopoid race. Their modern descendants are the tako, the blue-ringed octopus, and the doppelgangers. The aquatic creator race claims descent from the first life of Toril, before the rise of land, when the planet was a blue ocean-world.
Then Dendar swallowed the sun, the skies went dark and the surface of the oceans froze over for a long, enduring ice age that persisted even after the sun was reignited in the sky.
When the ice eventually began to melt, the snow and glaciers receded, and land was revealed beneath. Was this because the land had been thrust up from below due to continental drift, or some great cataclysm, or because much of Toril's water was held at bay, still frozen in immense ice caps? No one knows, but in time the new land was teeming with life. And soon the reptilian Sarrukh arose to dominate the land as the first creator race (on land) and so began the Days of Thunder.
But during all this time, the first life below the waves persisted, in the dark depths beneath the ice. The aquatic creator race lived on, and thrived. They were not the largest, or most powerful race in the oceans. They were only a medium sized race of octopuses, they were not particularly strong or fierce. But they were clever, and they had a natural ability to camouflage themselves, changing their color and shape (not a magical or supernatural ability, mind you, simply an extraordinary natural ability, as several species of octopus, squid and cuttlefish are able to do to varying degrees) to blend in with their surroundings or appear as a more threatening predator, or something more innocuous. In fact, their language was based, not on sound, but on the changing, flashing colors of their skin.
The aquatic creator race learned to use tools and to build structures to protect themselves. They used coral, shells, seaweed and a variety of plant fibers to manufacture simple dwellings at first. Eventually they learned to use sand to make glass.
It is thought they first used volcanic vents as furnaces to make glass. But as they developed the technology further, they found ingenious ways to make their furnaces, using natural caves, and then specially excavated burrows, and even floating furnaces that were erected on rafts and pontoon structures that were lifted up out of the ocean above the surface of the waves. Eventually they learned to use magic to achieve even greater feats of craft, but their skill at glassworking was already far advanced before they ever discovered magic.
The octopoid race was skilled at making glass bricks and blocks out of which they built their dwellings, usually great domed structures, oval mounds and tear-dropped shaped edifices, the greatest of which looked like rounded ziggurats, with all the angles smoothed and rounded into streamlined, aerodynamic shapes so as to help resist the powerful forces of the ocean currents. These structures were adorned with mosaics of colored glass and tile and polished shells and corals. Their cities were renowned for their startling beauty.
Their glass making skills were unmatched. In time they discovered alchemical processes for creating very hard and durable ceramics -- much like the boro-silcate glass we have on Earth. The aquatic creator race learned the secrets of making glass-steel and other ceramics that had extremely durable properties. The glass spires of the Farsea marshes are remnants of this architecture, brought to land by the Batrachi descendants of the octopoid race. The octopoids also used these techniques to make armor and glassteel spears and swords and other weapons to defend themselves.
The octopoid creator race worshiped a pantheon of gods called the Great School (Sea of Fallen Stars p. 60). It is thought that Panzuriel was a member, and that he was the god of death for the aquatic pantheon, and steward of the Fugue Plane during that period. It is possible that certain of the Great School deities were aspects of current gods worshiped by humans. Certainly Talos the Destroyer was represented as a one-eyed octopus, who became the patron of the Tako race. There was a mother-goddess who may have been an aspect of Chauntea, and many other gods, some of whom may have been cognate to gods of the Faerūnian pantheon, but many others who were unique to that race.
The Great School pantheon lived in the plane called the Fated Depths -- in recent times a dark and barren, stygian void of foul, corrupted waters where only Sekolah, Blibdoolpoolp, krakentua, and other aquatic horrors made their home. But in ancient times it was an aquatic paradise of great beauty and wonder -- until the advent of Ramenos.
At some point, the aquatic creator race fell under the sway of Ramenos. Where did Ramenos come from? By some accounts, he was a fragment of the World Serpent, venerateded by an aquatic branch of the scaly folk. No one knows if the race was a marine variant of lizardfolk, nagas, yuan-ti, the Sarrukh themselves, or some extinct race of sea-serpents. Compelling arguments have been made for the anguillians or morkoths. Another myth holds that Ramenos was the twin brother of Laogzed born of Panzuriel. Others think he was a demon prince or a slaad lord elevated to divinity through worship.
One thing seems clear, though, he did not originally appear as a toad. What early renderings of him that survive depict him as a great maw emerging from an inky darkness. Some speculate he may have appeared as an eel, a kraken, or even a giant nightmarish tadpole, but any evidence of what his original form may have been is lost to time.
At first a burgeoning cult, soon the religion of Ramenos swept over the octopoid race, propelled by a monotheistic zeal. By sheer charisma, and often by force, the octopoids were largely converted to the worship of Ramenos.
Eventually, Ramenos harrowed the Fated Depths, swimming through the waters of that great paradise, devouring the Great School gods in ravenous gulps. From this concentration of power he had consumed, Ramenos fueled an epic metamorphosis that transformed not only himself into the toad-like form by which he would ever after be known, but like a tadpole turns into a frog, he also transformed his worshipers into the vertebrate, amphibious Batrachi, so that they could rise above the waves and conquer the land as they had conquered the seas.
Talos protected his own faithful from the transformation, using his power of destruction to destroy the very effects of the spell on his worshipers. Though as a consequence, the aborted transformation left the entire tako race with only one eye, just like their god.
Some of the aquatic creator race escaped and survive to this day, albeit as various lesser racial offshoots, like the blue-ring octopus.
Another branch also emerged onto land at a different time period (whether before or after the Batrachi is unknown) to become the shape-shifting doppelgangers. Some speculate that the Sarrukh themselves bred octopoid captives to become the ultimate shape-shifting spies. Others think the doppelgangers regretted not joining with the Batrachi on land and so they used a separate epic magic to transform themselves so they could follow their Batrachi brethren, but with tragic results, trapping them in a perpetual state of change, unfinished and unformed.
On land, the frog-like Batrachi were very successful and rose to be the dominant species. Though still they preferred to live near water, building along the coasts, and along rivers, in marshes, swamps and wetlands, and along the shores of the inner seas (not yet the Sea of Fallen Stars, which would not form until Tearfall joined the inner seas into one at the end of the Batrachi reign). They crafted towering spires of glass, only a few of which survive to this day, but mostly as ruins. And they used their knowledge of ceramics to craft glassteel weapons as their instruments of war.
The Batrachi conquered and enslaved many other races, including an avian race known as the Aearee. Those who resisted Batrachi rule were sacrificed to Ramenos in great bronze altars, shaped like a great frog with gaping maw. The statues were hollow, filled with fire, stoked with coals and wood. The victims were tied and tossed into the great mouth as food for the god, immolated in service to a ravenous, all-consuming deity.
Especially around the inner seas, the Batrachi came into conflict with the greatest of Annam's children, the giant race known as the Titans. There were many wars among the Batrachi and the giant folk, who would not cede their power to Batrachi domination. Despite all the other races the Batrachi conquered, the Titans were never defeated.
Whether the Batrachi-Titan war was a terrestrial echo of the war between the gods and the primordials, or the spark that disrupted the long standing détente that had held the gods and primordials at bay; but as above so below, and so war raged both in the heavens and upon the earth.
By some accounts, the Batrachi used their planar magic to summon and bind an ancient primordial named Asgorath to use as the ultimate weapon against their titan foes. However, the bargain sealed their doom. In fulfillment of the pact, Asgorath shattered Toril's second moon and hurled the greatest piece of it down on the realm of the titans in a rain of fiery death. It gouged a deep scar in the face of Toril creating the Sea of Fallen Stars. The race of titans was extinguished. But the Batrachi fared no better. Meteors fell from the sky. The remaining shards that did not fall, trailed the larger moon (around the trojan point of her orbit roughly 60 degrees of arc following Selūne), glistening in the sky, known today as the Tears of Selūne.
Legend has it that along with the falling stars, fell Asgorath's eggs, born of fire and incubated in the heat of the burning land. Although, others say that epic magic or wild magic residue from the divine battle, mutated the eggs of proto-dragons or drakes. Soon after the Tearfall event, the first true dragons hatched upon the face of Toril.
Following Tearfall, dust and debris from the disaster blocked out the sun, resulting in sevenfold Fimbulwinter, a mini-ice age that blanketed Toril in snow and darkness for seven years. Freed Aearee slaves of the Batrachi used the magic they had learned from their masters to protect swaths of forests and what life they could during that bleak time. The Aearee also hunted down their surviving Batrachi masters and obliterated them mercilessly. Some Batrachi escaped to the planes, settling in a realm called Limbo, where they became the race known today as the Nerath. The descendants of those few Batrachi who remained on Toril became the barbarous sivs, bullywugs and grippli.
One penitent branch of Batrachi, forswearing Ramenos, they tried to transform themselves back into the form of their octopoid forebears, and retreat to a peaceful life in the oceans once more. But the magic went awry. The transformation was only partially successful. They became the half-octopoid, half-humanoid race known as the Zoveri, who to this day swim the astral waters along the shores of Mount Celestia in the House of the Triad, forbidden to tread on land in eternal penance for the crimes of their ancient race.
The Aearee in turn developed a great civilization that lasted another thousand years before the dragons grew to adulthood in such numbers that the Aearee fell victim to draconic predation. But that's another story. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 19:37:35
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Hey Gray, good to see you are still around. 
You wouldn't have happened to have been inspired by the Mimic Octopus, would you?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 21:26:04
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The above bears some good reading through. You know, I never really thought about it, but has anyone ever found a reference to where the "ice moon" that was hurled at Toril came from? I mean, did Toril have another moon long ago? Was Selune a part of that other moon? Was the hurling of that ice moon and subsequent fall to earth related in any way to when Shar hurled some of her essence at Selune, ripping away some of Selune and the combined entity forming Mystryl? It could be interesting if the tearfall was when Mystryl was actually formed.
Maybe this has already been discussed. If so, anyone have any links? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 22:00:10
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Great post Gray, I think the batrachi also fed their sacrifices to the froghemoths. Is Ramenos Tsathoggua? The ormyrr (from Ruins of Myth Drannor) could also be batrachi.
In the old Grand History of the Realms it says that the World Serpent snatched two comets from the Sea of Night, Ssharstrune and Zotha, Zotha was the ice mooon. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 23:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Great post Gray, I think the batrachi also fed their sacrifices to the froghemoths. Is Ramenos Tsathoggua? The ormyrr (from Ruins of Myth Drannor) could also be batrachi.
In the old Grand History of the Realms it says that the World Serpent snatched two comets from the Sea of Night, Ssharstrune and Zotha, Zotha was the ice mooon.
I'm looking at the Grand History, and all it says is an ice moon. When I google things, somewhere people are saying that Zotha was the name of the ice moon, but no source is given. They don't mention anything about Ssharstrune being an involved comet. I'm guessing its some later 4e source that gives this information? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:17:19
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I think he's referring to the original GHotR that BRJ had on his website (or hosted for him - can't recall) for a long while before WotC picked it up to make the official product. I think the "Zotha" lore is BRJ's but didn't make the "official" GHotR.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:19:53
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It's also interesting to see Gray's take on the Tearfall and shards of Selune and compare them with Eric Boyd's take in GHotR. The comparison between the versions, with one giving more nods to Planescape and the other to the Realms, is noteworthy.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 06:17:03
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I put that all together at about 2:00 am the other morning when I should have been going to bed. But as so often happens when I am trying to wind down, my mind begins to race and the ideas begin to flow and I feel compelled to write them down. If I had my drothers I would go back and edit that more and source everything with page references and such. But I've been thinking a lot about the Batrachi lately, and this sort of consolidates much of the lore into a cohesive history, at least as I see it.
I hope everything I wrote is consonant with existing lore, I tried to be as faithful as possible to what has gone before and not contradict anything Eric or Brian or anybody has written. If there are any seeming contradictions I think I might be able to explain them. Much of what I wrote is my own speculation, but firmly grounded in and extrapolated from established lore that I have collected from diverse sources over the years.
Markus, I definitely was thinking of the mimic octopus--an astounding, real-life creature that can change its shape and color to resemble stones, crabs, seaweed, fish, and even more surprising shapes. But also creatures like the Humboldt squid; squid that hunt in packs like wolves and seem to coordinate their attacks through a language of rapidly shimmering color patterns produced by chromatophores in their skin. But this fascinating ability to change the color and texture of their skin to use for camouflage, communicate, and even hypnotize their prey, is an ability common to many species of octopus, squid and cuttlefish.
Including the blue-ringed octopus, which has a little write-up in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. Additionally, in the Kara-Tur Monstrous Compendium, it says that "Tako can change color with ease. . . Tako have their own language based on tentacle movements and skin-color changes. . . Tako can change their color and pattern to match any natural terrain in a single round. This camouflage makes them 90% undetectable, and modifies the surprise rolls of opponents by -3." As the progenitors of such diverse species as the tako, the blue-ringed octopus, and the doppelgangers, it seemed natural to conclude that the aquatic creator race would have a natural talent for camouflage and mimicry to some degree. It also neatly explains their ability to communicate effectively underwater without the use of sound through patterns of shifting color.
Ouch! Just realized I typed "nerath" above when I meant "neraphim." That's gonna bug me, I may need to go back and edit that. My assumption is that the Batrachi Lords that Brian wrote about are the arch-versions of the Neraphim (from the planar handbook) who look very similar to slaadi, but who are not embodiments of a philosophical ideal, and who seem to breed in a more terrestrial fashion. Also, we know that the Supreme Throne used to be called "Limbo" before it was renamed by Cyric in recent years. This was established in the Prison of the Firebringer adventure in Dungeon #101 where it is mentioned that the Firebringer Bazim-Gorag (thought to be a slaad lord at the time, but revealed in the GHOTR to be instead a Batrachi lord, which are often mistaken for each other) was summoned from Limbo. Note that Bazim-Gorag is the unnamed narrator of Brian's sidebar on p.5 of the GHotR. He was apparently a vassal lord or peer and contemporary of Zhoukoudien, the Batrachi emperor or overlord who was slain in battle against the titan thane Omo. An event that either started or escalated a war that would culminate in Tearfall some 500 years later.
Note: this makes Bazim-Gorag around 33,000 years old, if he's telling the truth.
Quale, I am awfully fond of froghemoths. To my mind, they were created by the Batrachi as temple guardians, or watch-dogs of a kind, or maybe as arena beasts to pit their slaves against in combat for entertainment. The aquatic creator race had contact with the Aboleths, who had a presence on Toril from very early on. Brian James has said that the Aboleths were in league with the Batrachi, either as allies or members of the Batrachi Empire, or as a secret power behind certain Batrachi governments or leaders. One might assume that Batrachi research into planar magic had led to contact with the Far Realms, and the first froghemoths may have been Batrachi that were warped in some way by the pseudonatural forces of those incomprehensible planes. Either that, or Batrachi breeders, experimenters or flesh-shapers took great delight in creating bizarre, twisted creatures for their amusement; perhaps in imitation of, or drawing influence from, the Sarrukh who preceded them.
Ramenos is not Tsathoggua, but he is certainly very reminiscent of Tsathoggua, isn't he? And the bronze hollow altars dedicated to Ramenos remind me very much of statues of that entity. But also of those Chinese luck frogs. And depictions of altars to the Phoenician god Moloch, hollow bronze statues heated with flame on which victims were sacrificed by the searing heat of hot metal -- an image that has always haunted me.
If I recall, in Eric Boyd's Mintper's Chapbook series, there is mention of a statue of Ramenos in a secret chamber beneath the Grandfather Tree. He is depicted as resembling a six-eyed slaad.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 18:26:20
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| Wow, so cool...who needs WotC when we have talent here at Candlekeep? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 23:43:05
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And if you think this stuff is cool, wait until the 'Nights of Lightening' thread.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 06:40:00
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Some more thoughts I had about the post-transformation Batrachi: The Batrachi were transformed by Ramenos in an act of epic magic from sea-dwelling octopoid creatures into vertebrate, amphibious, frog-like humanoids sometime around 33,500 DR, or maybe a little before. By -33,500 DR they had risen out of the seas and swept rapidly across the lands of Merrouroboros. The Batrachi rose to dominance in the vacuum left by the decline and somnolence of the Sarrukh.
Note, the name "Batrachi" is from the Greek word for "frog" and is a term that I use to refer solely to the frog-like, post-metamorphosis Batrachi race. I refer to the pre-transformation octopoids as the aquatic creator race, or simply as octopoids. Not all the authors use the terms in the same way, which may cause some confusion. However, I think it's an important distinction to make.
I doubt the term "Batrachi" is a word that the race themselves used. Rather, I suggest it is a term used by human scholars to refer to the ancient race. It's a place-holder name we use until we learn what name(s) they called themselves in their own languages.
To be sure, the aquatic creator race would not even have had a name pronounceable by humans; their language was silent. They "spoke" by means of flashing colors and patterns produced by chromatophores in their skin.
If it is true that the neraphim that live in the Supreme Throne are descendants of the Batrachi who escaped Tearfall, it may be that the name the Batrachi called themselves in their own tongue sounded like some variant of "neraph" or "neraphim."
After their metamorphosis, the Batrachi were no less dependent on water. However, a result of the transformation was that the Batrachi were no longer as tolerant of salt water. They could thrive on land, but continued to need access to abundant fresh water, or at least brackish water, in order to bathe and moisten their skin, and most importantly in which to lay their eggs. Though they might be able to survive several days at a time without access to water, it was essential for their reproductive cycle.
In the humid climes of the south, the Batrachi tended to have more glistening, moist skin, usually in various shades of bright green but often accented in vivid colors or patterns. Southern Batrachi flourished in jungle environments and their descendants today are the racial offshoots known as grippli.
In the colder, drier, northern regions, the Batrachi developed a drier skin to protect them from desiccation. They appeared more akin to toads, or bullfrogs, with darker, earthier and blander coloring. They preferred to build their settlements within and along the shores of rivers, lakes, and especially wetlands. Though they had some coastal cities, these tended to develop at river deltas or where the mouths of streams or rivers joined the sea. The modern descendants of this branch of the Batrachi are the bullywugs and sivs.
The Batrachi were quite accomplished at great waterworks. They built canals and aqueducts to bring water from great distances. They built dams to flood plains and valleys to create artificial lakes and wetlands. When they did settle in more remote places, away from large bodies of water, they would only do so if there was access to adequate water from springs or wells. Although, it was not unknown for them to use create water spells, magical items or portals to access the water they needed.
Few of these great works survive to this day. 30,000 years have reduced most of the aqueducts to rubble, burst the dams, and filled the great canals with silt and soil.
Batrachi dwellings and cities tended to rise up out of lakes and rivers; half submerged in water, they were built as much below the surface as above. The amphibious Batrachi were equally comfortable in or out of water, and their architecture reflects this. Often their slender glass towers, barely poking out from beneath the waves, were only the visible tip of great labyrinthine warrens that were built on the lake beds, river beds or in the murky swamp waters below. Perhaps some Batrachi labyrinths have survived to modern times; maybe under a farmer's field that was once a dried-up lake bottom. Maybe the tip of a crystalline tower is just waiting to be exposed by a farmers plow.
I surmise that the four smaller inner seas, that existed prior to when the Sea of Fallen Stars was gouged out by Tearfall, were much less salty than the larger inner sea we know today. They may have even been freshwater "great lakes." They were obviously very desirable real estate from the Batrachi perspective, which is what brought them into conflict with the Jotunbrud Tribes to the northeast.
Brian James had some thoughts on the Batrachi nations which he posted awhile back. If you look on the Days of Thunder map on p.6 of the Grand History of the Realms (circa -31,500 DR) you see the label "Batrachi Empires." We should take this to mean there were more than one. The Batrachi were not a monolithic race. The Batrachi had many nations of varying degrees of power, magic, and technological achievement. And these nations and empires waxed and waned over time.
Among the nations that are labeled on the map, you find Kolophoon, Zhoukoudien, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda. I take these to be the most prominent political powers of the day, but not necessarily the only ones around at the time.
Zhoukoudien is the empire ruled by a Batrachi who is himself named Zhoukoudien. He styled himself the High One. The Grand History calls him a wise leader, but I do not take that to mean good or kind. He was assassinated by the titan thane Omo. They were an aggressive nation and their wars with the titans resulted in the Tearfall that brought their doom.
I see Zhoukoudien as a theocracy. The High One himself was not just the Emperor, but also the absolute spiritual authority of the Ramenite hierarchy. Something like a Caliph, seen as Ramenos's appointed representative on Toril. The empire was ruled locally by thearchs, sort of like bishop-governors that had absolute authority over their assigned districts. Any who opposed the thearchs found themselves sacrificed in the fiery maw of a Ramenite altar.
Zhoukoudien was apparently unnaturally long-lived, meeting death only by assassination. And his canny leadership helped grow his empire into a formidable power that enslaved many smaller nations and less powerful races, including tribes of humans and Aearee.
To the east, we find Kolophoon. Brian suggested that this nation was ruled by the Kolophoon Sovreignty, where aboleths ruled supreme over their kopru and froghemoth servitors. Brian suggests that early Batrachi opened gates to the Far Realm, unleashing the first aberrations upon Abeir-Toril.
I imagine that the Batrachi themselves were either twisted by pseudo-natural forces into the first froghemoths, or the aboleths intentionally twisted the Batrachi into froghemoths to suit their alien whims or aesthetic. Another possibility is that the froghemoths resulted from interbreeding between Batrachi and aboleths or other aberrations that came through the rifts to the Far Realms.
Kolophoon may have started out as a Batrachi nation, but by -31,500 DR it was firmly under aboleth rule. In the beginning, the aboleths may have been allies. Then the powers behind the throne. And finally, what Batrachi that remained had become pitiful subjects of their aberrant masters.
Brian suggests that the region labeled Boitumelo was a loose confederation of nations peopled by tribes of kappa, sivs, and grippli. I'm imagining something like the modern Dales, or maybe like the Native American tribes in pre-Columbian North America.
Brian suggests that Nadezhda was a region settled by human tribes that were infiltrated, dominated and then mostly supplanted by doppelgangers. Later, the region would in turn be conquered by Aearee.
Brian sees Pourounkorokale as the longest lived of the nations of the aquatic creator race, existing entirely beneath the southern waters of the Black Sea (aka the modern day Shining Sea). It was a once great nation of the pre-metamorphosis aquatic creator race. Following the transformation of their brethren by Ramenos, Pourounkorokale was ruled by tako, a subrace of octopoids who resisted the change into the amphibious Batrachi. They kept their crystalline cities and ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and what other octopoid survivors remained of the aquatic creator race. Brian writes that Pourounkorokale survived the Tearfall and long outlived the fall of their land-dwelling Batrachi cousins. However, the tako were nearly driven extinct in a later war against conquering seawurms after a terrible betrayal by sahuagin allies. The surviving tako fled west, through the Strait of Lopango to the Sea of Corynactis (west of modern day Maztica) and as far as Kara-Tur where their descendants can still be found today. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 16:23:33
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| Just a thought, what research I've seen on him shows Iakhovas (the wereshark from the threat from the sea trilogy) as coming from near this time. I wonder if the creator races created Iakhovas from human stock of the time period? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 17:55:23
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I'm not sure, but I think Iakhovas predates (in both senses) humans. I think he was around even before the Days of Thunder, when the surface of the seas were covered in ice, and land was not yet known on Toril.
I see him as a descendant of the first life in the oceans, not a creation of the aquatic creator race, but a mutation perhaps. A unique being, a were-megalodon. Or maybe he started out as normal megalodon, but then something extraordinary happened to him that gifted him with enduring life and the ability to shift his form.
Honestly, I'm not sure I feel qualified to speculate. Perhaps Iakhovas himself might have some insight; I wouldn't want to tread on territory on which Brian James has a special claim.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2012 : 18:32:59
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I'd actually place him as some sort of demon-figure from the Batrachi mythos. He may have predated them, but I can see him being construed as some sort of 'fiend from the depths'.
BTW, just out of curiosity to the OP - why bother? Technically, the world that existed back then isn't the same world FR takes place on - it was Abeir-Toril (which was torn asunder and both halves rebuilt). That far back, what is the point of even calling it an FR campaign? Wouldn't it just be a prehistoric campaign?
I'm not being facetious or anything - I just don't get it. Wouldn't a more generic setting be less constricting? Or is part of the fun applying FR's prehistory to the world? (in which case, you could really do that to any world). I am just wondering why it would even be considered an FR game set back then, since nothing about the current setting really applies.
I could just as easily run a Space Opera (Traveler) campaign and say the world is Toril, even if it looks completely different (I could just say it takes place 30K+ years into the future). At that point, I am just making stuff up and saying it is FR - whats the difference?
Just curious is all - not trying to be a jerk or anything. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2012 18:34:22 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 09:25:21
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You are not in charge of my campaign or anyone else's campaign, Markus. You are also not the owner of the 'FORGOTTEN REALMS' IP. You are just some guy.
But if you actually are curious, I happen to like the prehistory of the Realms.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 10 Oct 2012 09:26:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 10:17:25
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I never said I owned the IP. Not sure how you got that idea. Even if I was, I still couldn't tell people how to play their games.
I really was curious as to why prehistoric Realms, as opposed to just prehistoric. Sorry if you thought otherwise.
You did give me an idea for interesting twist in a 'stranded on another world' campaign. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 04:32:00
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I saw another thread on this in the "Running the Realms" forum I believe.
My question is, if someone plans on running a game during these ancient times, you will need the stats of the Creator Races. At least stats on the Sarrukh, Batrachi, Aearee, and maybe the titans. And also the original aquatic creator race Gray speaks of.
What stats would the Titans use? Is there a difference between the extraplanar titan and the Torilian titan? Did titans of the planes inhabit Faerun or did some of the titans of Faerun left to inhabit the planes?
What about the Batrachi and Aeraee? Clearly the Sarrukh stats given in Serpent Kingdom are testament to how mighty they were, so that would mean the other creator races would have to be equal in power on average mentally, physically, and supernaturally, especially going toe to toe with each other.
I'd love to see a write up for them one day...preferable in 3E stats. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 17:36:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I saw another thread on this in the "Running the Realms" forum I believe.
My question is, if someone plans on running a game during these ancient times, you will need the stats of the Creator Races. At least stats on the Sarrukh, Batrachi, Aearee, and maybe the titans. And also the original aquatic creator race Gray speaks of.
What stats would the Titans use? Is there a difference between the extraplanar titan and the Torilian titan? Did titans of the planes inhabit Faerun or did some of the titans of Faerun left to inhabit the planes?
Excellent questions. Just to piggy back... Was Ostoria already established when the creator races decided to move from the oceans to land? Gary if you are reading this, what are your thoughts? |
Edited by - jordanz on 13 Oct 2012 17:47:07 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 07:27:04
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I would use stats for Sivs (see Monsters of Faerūn), or maybe Grippli (Tome of Horrors, not an official WotC book, but a licensed 3e book) or Bullywugs (also in Monsters of Faerūn) for the Batrachi. I don't think their modern descendants differ too much from their ancient ancestors.
Likewise, the Aearee were not that different from modern Aarakocra. They also had stats in Monsters of Faerūn but also Races of Faerūn. For the Aearee-Quor subrace, I'd use the stats for Crow-headed Tengu from the 3e Oriental Adventures book. This was when they still had wings. After they began to worship Pazriel, they lost their wings and the ability to fly as part of their demonic bargain. That left them looking like the modern day kenkus, who had stats in Monster Manual 3, and in Creatures of Rokugan. Or their debased, subterranean cousins, the Dire Corbies (also statted in Tome of Horrors)
Now as for the pre-Batrachi, pre-transformation, aquatic creator race, I might start with the Octopus stats from the 3.5 Monster Manual p.276, and use the advancement rules to advance it from small to medium size. I would also compare it to the Tako stats on p.193 of the 3e Oriental Adventures book although, I'd give them two eyes. Lastly, I would add the mimic shape feat from the mimic entry of the Monster Manual, or basically just a really high racial bonus to disguise.
You can play around with their appearances, but the stats should be about the same as their modern counterparts.
Unlike the LeShay and the Sarrukh, the Batrachi and their octopoid ancestors, and the Aearee, in the same manner as humans, were not particularly physically powerful races. They did not really have innate special powers. What made them powerful was their ability to band together and establish great civilizations. They were able to learn, advance technologically, and build great works. And most of all, they were able to master the highest forms of magic, and expand the art.
If you want to make very powerful representatives of these races, instead of giving them racial powers, I would just give them lots of class levels. Batrachi might have levels in noble, in cleric, wizard, mystic theurge, fighter or any of a number of various classes. Aearee might favor druid levels, or rune-based classes. Octopoids were as diverse as humans and might have levels in any class, though I think some of them might have specialized in summoning elementals, elemental creatures and genies.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 00:24:44
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Interesting notes and suggestions, Gray.
Dragon Magazine #324 (I think) had some pretty good racial stats for the Grippli. That's been the only 3e stats written up for them officially, in fact.
So the Sarrukh were really the only naturally physically and magically powerful of them huh? But what of someone like the Batrachi Lord Bazim-Gorag? Not that all batrachi are of his level of power, but it feels like the batrachi are at least the same in power to the sarrukh naturally?
Though I do believe Bazim-Gorag had undergone a transformation into a slaad and it probably increased his power, along with thousands of years of accumulating even more power. So he is a bad example I guess.
Now I am confused; the slaads are not former batrachi right? Or is it that only some of them are and the rest are now neraphs? |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 00:28:59
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| Ah, one more thing, what place would the Raptorans have in relation to the Aeraee? Clearly they are descendants of the Aeraee and they actually look more like them originally than the Aaracockrans do, who look more like parrots whereas the Raptorans look truly uniquely avian. Personally, I've had it where enclaves of Raptorans are in Anchorome, with some of them migrating to Faerun for the same reasons the Aaracockrans did. Or maybe the two have had a falling out with each other and are in Faerun for deeper motives. I've yet to decide on anything with finality yet. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 04:03:42
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I wouldn't say that Batrachi were the same in power to the Sarrukh naturally. I would suggest that Batrachi, although they may start out weak, gain in power through experience, just as humans do.
Most Batrachi, I surmise, were rather unremarkable. But there were individuals at every power level, gained mostly through level advancement in one class or another. A very small fraction achieved epic levels, and of course those Batrachi may be disproportionately represented in whatever records or legends may have survived from that age.
Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer is a unique, epic-level entity, who has been called a slaad lord in Dungeon #101, where he was introduced, and in his write-up in Champions of Ruin, where he is statted as a CR 21 outsider.
However, in the Grand History of the Realms p.5, he calls himself a Batrachi lord. He also says his people are often mistaken for slaadi, who inhabit the same plane of the Supreme Throne (formerly called Limbo, before Cyric fled there from the Fugue Plane, taking it as his new seat of power and renaming the place as his "Supreme Throne.")
Bazim-Gorag is an interesting case. He has been "alive" for some 33,000 years. He claims to have been a powerful Batrachi ruler of a region extending from the Black Sea to the peaks of Lopango. He may have been a vassal (or possibly rival) of Zhoukoudien, the emperor (or "High One") of the most powerful Batrachi nation, named after himself. Or maybe he was just called by the name of the empire (In the way that Shakespeare often refers to kings metonymically by the names of their countries, for example in Hamlet, the king of England is referred to as England, and the king of Norway is also called Norway.)
Anyway, after Tearfall, circa -31,000 DR, many surviving Batrachi fled to the plane of Limbo. Those that remained on Toril remained the normal Batrachi they had been, whose descendants are the sivs, bullywugs, and grippli. Just as humans have not changed much from that time, we can assume the common ancestors of the sivs, bullywugs and grippli looked something like they do now. Or close enough for horseshoes.
But the Grand History of the Realms tells us that the Batrachi survivors that fled to Limbo (aka the Supreme Throne) were transformed a second time by Ramenos, in order to adapt to that plane. I imagine that Ramenos was not all that creative, and so he probably used the slaad as a model (apparently he used red slaadi, specifically, as a model), as their form was already pretty well adapted to the chaotic plane. These transformed Batrachi became the neraphim, the playable race that was introduced in the Planar Handbook. I assume their stats and current status are exactly as described in the Planar Handbook pp.12-13. According to that book, they are nomadic hunters organized into "houses" or clans.
Now, what exactly is a Batrachi lord? I assume they are epic level neraphim who have achieved paragon or paragon-equivalent status. The most obvious route would be as a seraph, or "chosen" of Ramenos. Or in 4e parlance some kind of exarch. They might at least have DVR 0.
Bazim-Gorag intrigues me. His entry in Champions of Ruin describes him as a lesser rival of slaad lords Ssendam and Ygorl. At least he has aspirations of challenging their power, although it sounds like Ygorl and Ssendam tolerate him, and don't really consider him a threat.
So he is considered a "slaad lord," has ties to the slaadi, and also has a second head. My own explanation is that some time after Tearfall, Ramenos slipped into somnolence, and during his dormancy became an absentee god to the neraphim. Some factions of the neraphim began to revere the slaad lords instead of Ramenos.
As a powerful Batrachi ruler on Toril, I assume Bazim-Gorag only had one head at the time. I will call him Bazim. Bazim may have already been selected as a seraph (or "chosen") of Ramenos prior to Tearfall. Bazim continued to be a powerful leader after he was transformed into a neraphim. He may have also developed skills as an anarch, with the power to shape the chaos of the plane to his will. After Ramenos withdrew into his sleep, Bazim sought new avenues to increasing his power. He looked to the other source of power on the plane: the slaadi. I suppose he used his accumulated power, either as an anarch, or other powerful magics, to trap and merge with a slaad with the intention of gaining its power. I am guessing perhaps a death slaad, a grey slaad, or at least a red slaad, but possibly even a minor slaad lord. But it looks like the slaad resisted the merge enough to remain a separate personality, manifesting as a second head. I will call him Gorag. The resulting composite entity emerged a more powerful being, both a Batrachi lord, and, arguably, with some claim to being a slaad lord as well.
There may be other explanations for how Bazim-Gorag came by his second head (including I suppose, his being born that way) but this is the explanation I am fond of. I imagine that Gorag is actually pleased by the unexpected result, and works with Bazim as a partner to achieve their dual aims. Although, if they hated each other, that could be interesting too. But that's a little too much like Demogorgon. So, for the sake of something different, I think having Bazim and Gorag work as partners (hey, or even lovers, perhaps Gorag identifies as female?--although technically slaad are neuter, I think...) is more interesting than having the two personalities hate or work against each other.
It sounds like there are other Batrachi lords. But surely not that many, probably just a handful. Over the centuries they would all have accumulated power by different routes. Some may be seraphs/chosen/exarchs of Ramenos. Some may just have epic levels. Some may have negotiated with hags to achieve power through rituals similar to the way in which altraloths are created. Others may have been warped by the plane, or pursued slaadi magic or artifacts. Perhaps some kind of ceremony with the slaadi Chaos Stone might grant a Batrachi some degree of power. All this to say that each "Batrachi lord" or arch-neraph or neraph lord, whatever you choose to call them, is probably a unique individual that could be designed any which way, with any set of powers, with a background or explanation for his achieving that power completely up to the GM. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 04:31:57
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As for Raptorans, I actually think that they are not Aearee at all. They are just humanoids with wings. Races of the Wild explains that they were once merely ordinary, wingless humanoids who made a pact with powerful elemental lords from the Plane of Air to grant them flight.
Aearee are not humanoids. Aearee are birds, with somewhat slightly humanoid features. Aearee actually looked very much like the Aarakocra of today. Well, actually, the Aearee-Syran subrace did (who lived in the east and north of the Merrouroboros super-continent, which would be the North and parts east of Faerūn today.) The Aearee-Quor, who lived in the south, looked like Kenku, but had great wings instead of puny arms. The Aearee-Krocca, the western subrace of the Aearee, looked more like eagles, hawks, falcons and raptors. Modern aarakocra are probably a result of interbreeding between surviving Aearee-Krocca and Aearee-Syran.
There were other, minor, subraces of Aearee, including Vulchlings, who had the appearance of vultures, condors, and buzzards. Also the Eblis, who had the features of storks or cranes. Not to mention the Dohwar, who looked like penguins, and who escaped predation from dragons by fleeing Toril in spelljamming ships, where they still thrive in wildspace to this day.
I would not, personally, intertwine the Raptorans with the lore of the Aearee. But if you wanted to, you might consider them a hybrid of human and Aearee, or perhaps human slaves, or allies that were transformed by Aearee magic.
Actually, I have been trying to think of a way to link swan-maidens to Aearee lore, but haven't really thought of a good way to do that except maybe the same explanation as above, that swan-maidens were human allies of the Aearee that were granted the ability to transform into swan form through Aearee magic that has bred true over time. However, there is also lore linking the swan-maidens to the fey. But, then again, maybe the swan-maidens were instead fey allies of the Aearee who were granted the ability to transform into swans through Aearee magic. Or perhaps they were fey spies, who transformed into swans in order to spy on the Aearee for the LeShay.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2012 : 13:46:13
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Very interesting, Gray. I will take these to heart and use this lore as a foundation for further adventure in my Realms.
I, too, was thinking swan-maidens to be more linked to fey somehow.
Mechanic-wise, I find that while 3E did not do stats for swan-maidens(and it wouldn't be all that hard to write up anyway), but there was a prestige class in the Book of Exalted Deeds (pg. 76) that, coincidentally, that comprised of females attuned to nature that can shapeshift into swans and granted a host of other spell-like abilities. By 10th level it transforms you into a fey.
Of course, there's a possibility that swanmaidens were always just that; female humanoids with a deep connection to the fey and the natural world and gifted to be swanmaidens as they progressed in power. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 03:29:42
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I was reading the Kraken Society recently and took note of a passage in 3E Lords of Darkness stating the kraken leader became obsessed with his current goal in part due to discovering that "his race" once had "former glories".
Seeing how powerful the krakens are, what relation would they have with the octopoid aquatic race? It's quite hard to imagine them as servitors or creations, meaning the proto-aqua race must have really been mighty in power. Possible they may have made the proto-aqua race their servitors but then how did they break free if such were true? Or could it be the krakens are the proto-aqua race? |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 09:41:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
(...)
Mechanic-wise, I find that while 3E did not do stats for swan-maidens(and it wouldn't be all that hard to write up anyway), but there was a prestige class in the Book of Exalted Deeds (pg. 76) that, coincidentally, that comprised of females attuned to nature that can shapeshift into swans and granted a host of other spell-like abilities. By 10th level it transforms you into a fey.
Of course, there's a possibility that swanmaidens were always just that; female humanoids with a deep connection to the fey and the natural world and gifted to be swanmaidens as they progressed in power.
In the 2e Book of Humanoids Swanmays are human or elven rangers or druids that possessed the veil that allowed their transformation into swans. It is not very different from the lore in their Monster - and subsequent Monstrous - Manual entry.
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 09:53:26
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My thoughts on the Krakens would be that those evolved from the Aquatic/amphibious Creator Race (Grey's piece in the CKC relates how various Ichthyoids are descended from them). That would be just one 'path' that evolution might have taken (assuming not all of them devolved).
I had once theorized that the Krakentua was actually an (failed) attempt by the Illithids to create a mindflayer from a Titan. Since the thing's head looks like a Kraken (hence the name), there's another possible connection. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 10:20:27
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I am sure the krakens and the Octopoids have a complex history together. Through the millennia they have been foes, allies, servants and masters to each other. I imagine the krakens are at least as old a race, if not older, than the aquatic creator race themselves. Both races predate the ice ages, predate the swallowing of the first sun by Dendar, back when Toril was a blue water world, teeming with life beneath the waves.
Krakens were no doubt a mighty race as well. Strong and powerful, these enormous creatures were terrors of the sea. They often ruled vast territories of their own. What kept them from achieving creator race status for themselves, is that they were too solitary to unite together to form great civilizations. They did not need to develop technology, magic, or infrastructure to impose their will upon others. Early on, they surely enslaved, bullied, cowed, or bent the lesser Octopoids to their will, sometimes even commanding worship as "gods."
Over time, the Octopoids gained in power, forming clans, tribes, nations and empires of their own. Because they were small (well, medium sized), and weak, they survived by being clever and banding together. They fought krakens, some krakens joined with the Octopoids, some krakens were in turn enslaved.
At their height, before the Ramenite transformation into the Batrachi, some aquatic creator race nations were multi-racial empires, containing not only Octopoids, but also krakens, anguillians, ixitxachitl, perhaps even aboleths, and many, many other marine races.
But I think, perhaps, the best way to view the relationship between the krakens and the Octopoids would be analogous to the relations between humans and giants through the ages. The krakens were certainly the brutish giants of the sea.
But I do think krakens were in close enough association with the Octopoids, that the kraken god Panzuriel became a member of the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race. I feel strongly that Panzuriel was probably the god of death for the Octopoids. He also had the portfolios of murder confusion and strife. He was very much the Cyric of his era, although Panzuriel was the original. He may have even been the very first god of Death. Or if not, he surely murdered him and stole his portfolios.
Panzuriel would have been The Lord of the Fugue Plane, although the plane was probably a sea back at that time. Today, the River Slith, a putrid trickle of polluted muck and slime that flows through the Fugue, is all that is left of the once great silver sea that filled the expanse of the Fugue Plane back in the Days of Thunder, before Tearfall.
All the dominions of the astral were part of one great silver sea originally, back before land arose on Toril. The silver sea around the mountains of Celestia and also around the islands of the Gates of the Moon, also the waters of the Evergold, and other astral waterways, are remnants of the luminous ocean that once permeated the whole of the astral plane.
The River Slith still connects to the corrupted seas of the Fated Depths. Once the exalted heaven of the Great School pantheon, before it was harrowed by Ramenos. Who,at the moment of his greatest power, fueled by the monotheistic zeal he fad instilled in the greater part of the Octopoid race, slammed through the shining waters of the Fated Depths, devouring the Great School gods in ravenous gulps, growing ever larger, until he laid waste to the entire plane and left it barren, with (nearly) all the pantheon dead. Ramenos used the power he gained from his rampage to fuel the epic metamorphosis of the Octopoid race into the vertebrate Batrachi. Now amphibious, he empowered them to rise above the waves to conquer the land as they had the oceans.
Panzuriel survived the onslaught in his stronghold of the Fugue. He remained the god of the dead for a time, but grew ever weaker in power as his worship and belief waned.
Sometime during the dominion of the Batrachi, the Aearee god of death gained in power. Phraarkiloorm, vulture-headed patron of the vulchling sub race, was ever-present in the consciousness of the Aearee slaves of the Batrachi, whose harsh abuses took a constant, deadly toll on the avians. The Aearee prayed to him to watch over the dead, protect the living from death, or sometimes ease the suffering of the hopeless and despondent thralls who could no longer bear their bondage. And, of course, they prayed to him for vengeance upon their cruel overlords.
It was not that difficult for an empowered Phraarkiloorm to wrest control of the Fugue from a weakened Panzuriel. Who fled back to the now darkened waters of the Fated Depths, nursing the wound of his severed tentacle, which he bears to this day--though when depicted in humanoid guise, Panzuriel is often portrayed with a severed foot instead.
Phraarkiloorm remained master of the Fugue until he in turn was devoured by the draconic death god Null upon the rise of Dragons.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2013 : 18:58:15
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| This is a really cool thread. It will be interesting to see how the creator races and tbier desendants evovle for 5e. |
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Days of Thunder campaigning
