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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  06:45:45  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Wait, let me check the 4e Realms campaign guide quick before I writr fanfiction for a whole town of 2000 people.

...

Unless someone can check me, I haven't found the small town of Priapurl.

There isn't a map insert for *any* details between Proskur to Berdusk.
I think I've been to this exact result before! "The town of Iraebor appears on no inserts, gets a green box, and then is just stamped on the larger map between the two nearest map inserts."
Did wotc design the inserts individually and then just eyeball or sacrifice the content between their inserts and make the world map out of them? Iraebor looks stamped on there. Now the gross warping of that feeder stream southeast of Berdusk makes more sense. The spot appeared on no maps and just got scribbled in I suppose?

Now let's check up on the 5e books for confirmation..

...

Yup, a module map shows the Easting stream going inti the river as starting west of Easting. Definiteky a 4e oversight and not a change. And Priapurl is on the 5e map!

So that hole in the ground was on the Dragon Coast map insert, with no appearance on the underdark maps as a deep chasm, and the name appears nowhere in the book but on art...

I am torn netween this chasm being a dropped narrative or a literal "an artist did it"/"we had nothing planned there, so dump it in a vague hole." And 5e has the area normal and missing no towns- 4e loved making ruins and here we have no record of any here.


...I think this is a blank check for fanfiction. Why not mess with the people who lived there for 100 years with their trade route abandoned?

I just need to check Volo's Guide to see if Priapurl has a single bit of information on it..
Man, 4e. I can never tell if it's rushed or trimmed or lazy or just relaxed. :o


Edit: I just accidentally destroyed the entire original post.
I'll just make a new thread if I decide to make something cool out of this Land's Mouth or if it's not even worthvexplaining the retcon..

Original post was about the novels supposedly having a cult of ghaunadaur in "the mountains south of easting" and, well, when the books were published there was a giant chasm between easting and the troll mountains. Also the town of Priapurl was missing from the maps and I went on a tangent about whether or not the trade route the town was on would be stable during the spellplague or not. It was probably fine.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 18 Nov 2020 13:13:48

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  08:38:36  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

I tend to think that the location in Easting is just picked for a few reasons:

  • Ghaunadaur is extremely random, and that chaotic nature is likely personified powerfully with his clergy
  • Ghaunadaur expected more than anything that sacrifices were consistently available, thus being on such a trade route would make that easy


It's all I can think of at this time.

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  10:27:25  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't mean to bat away answers to such an open question, but I gotta say..
Those mountains are across the entirety of the greenfields- 100 miles or kilometers by my map's unlabeled scale. How stealthy can you be hauling kidnap victims across such a pleasant vista? Even if there were an underground passage they would need a blessing from Ibrandul to survive the trek peacefully. That.. is not likely when the era of upheaval isn't over yet..
Maybe if I look at one of those atrocious 4e maps it will make more sense.

.. oh man. This map really is an abomination. They have this little feeder stream of the river Chlonthar (which ends near Easting) as leading almost as far east as Proskur.
The fate of Priapul is completely unknown as it may be several dozen miles from this "Land's Mouth" hole in the ground or several dozen miles INSIDE the hole.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/7/79/DragonCoast_4E.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/500?cb=20080901094656 https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/f/fd/DragonCoast-1479_DR.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/696?cb=20180705032834

So I'm gonna say that even if this hole got filled in (good luck finding another epic earth god to do that for ya like that one guy did with the Deep Rift) the Trader's Road is completely devastated.

Actually..

>_>

Okay so I'm going to make a new reply about this. I had a really stupid idea for this completely forgotten retcon.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2020 :  10:59:15  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I think I can completely ignore the storyline of the Abyssal Plague while being absolutely inspired by this one rumored factoid- which isn't even cited on the wiki. Ibrandul is another random entity that I researched earlier this year due to my mania about Ghaunadaur. There is no connection to Ghaunadaur for Ibrandul but.. I mean, if the land east and south of Easting is a blasted wasteland during the spellplague there could definitely be sinister activity taking place outside of the grasp of society.

We have a giant hole in the ground. 5e's maps completely ignore it. https://media.wizards.com/2015/images/dnd/resources/Sword-Coast-Map_HighRes.jpg
Novel lore explains the Underchasm through the activity of Grumbar. For the absurd size of a hole as the Underchasm was, this is an appropriate level of power needed to do this. Comparatively our hole is much smaller and manageable. What if we had a similar god associated with the earth who could fix this up?
5e places the town of Priapurl in a place that looks either exactly inside the Land's Mouth or overlooking it.

Imagine the scene of this town being cut off from Easting and anything east of Priapurl. 100 years go by. The town of 2000 has shrunk down as people fled northward. Cults blossom in the space. After enough time, this very year of my adventure in-fact, the second sundering begins. Earthquakes shake the entire planet. Teetering over the edge of this Land's Mouth, the people of Priapurl- forgotten by even the beings above Ao (WOTC) pray out desperately for help to keep from from falling in. At that time, Halrua returns from Abeir. The civilizations from Amn to Calimshan do who-knows-what other than send ships to Waterdeep to get a status report. The retcon-disaster that is the Doomvault's Chosen (one being of Ibrandul, dated 1486, years before Ao declares the gods returned) gives us an excuse to say that Ibrandul had at least some power separate from Shar in this timeframe, and Ibrandul sources their power from southern worship.

Why not do something hilarious down here that the people of the north and the sword coast just would never care to even notice. Have this small dumpy abandoned trade town watch the clandestine return of Ibrandul to godhood as they use their ability to "create tunnels" to sew and stitch the landscape back together, leaving a hollow network of tunnels beneath the now restored farmlands. This could create a vast network of tunnels safe for human travel stretching far and wide between Easting and the Snakewood and the Giant's Run mountains.

I don't have a connection to Ghaunadaur and Ibrandul but I gtg because my shift is over.

I want to do something ridiculous with this..


>http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15047
Ibrandlin are said to be found in the region. That's the only relevant detail I've found so far.
>http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21817&whichpage=3
Link to an image that I've never seen before that does have the Land's Mouth in a nice stylish manner. It definitely was a canon chasm.
>!!! There's an adventure set here! Apparently there was a Giant's Chalice lake under there that was massive. So there WAS a reason for the Land's Mouth..
>THE ABYSSAL PLAGUE IS CANON??? WHAT? Hot DAMN I am encouraged! The Elder Elemental Eye adventure holds the KEY here!
>It's set in Easting... ohohoh, I am going to crack this wide open.
>http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21817&whichpage=4
KanzenAU supposes either Grumbar fixed this chasm on the side, or it was AO who took care of it.
>Searching the thread for more info on the chasm.. w- ?! Gargauth?! WHY DO YOU KEEP SHOWING UP?

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 19 Nov 2020 04:31:54
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  05:01:09  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

I can certainly appreciate that outlook. I was looking at heading south and east from Easting, skirting Dragonrise Keep, and heading into the Troll Mountains. Quite easy to avoid people in that area, since people don't want to go there. ;)

The distance is 63.8 miles from Easting to the northern reaches of the Troll Mountains.

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  06:05:03  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

I can certainly appreciate that outlook. I was looking at heading south and east from Easting, skirting Dragonrise Keep, and heading into the Troll Mountains. Quite easy to avoid people in that area, since people don't want to go there. ;)

The distance is 63.8 miles from Easting to the northern reaches of the Troll Mountains.

Best regards,









1479, the Land's Mouth is still here. By 1489 it is gone.
This module apparently marks the destruction of the source of the Abyssal Plague, at least in the western heartlands.
I think I am in a situation to deconfirm the statement on the wiki about the temple being "at the mountains" south of Easting. Instead, they are "about a day's travel south of town in badlands" of Easting, "around the land's mouth".

The adventure here likely (honestly I'm getting very similar vibes to the Out of the Abyss inspired encounters in Adventurer's League with Grazz't and the half-demon fire giants far away from the north) parallels the story of the novels and both likely have similar ends with the temple to Ghaunadaur being thwarted by heroes.

So the abyssal plague I feel here was canon, there was a whole storyline, and then it ended and the story went on to focus on Lloth's "rise of the underdark" storyline. This likely ties into the pre-sundering transition story of that one war with the humans and the drow where the orcs came in and made it a three-way. I'm pretty sure that happened just a year or two before the second sundering.

So the Voidharrow and the Abyssal Plague (I never thought I'd research this again after browsing the topic earlier this year) happened on Toril, was dealt with by either interplanar superheroes or small-time adventurers, and then the world just moved on.

This Ghaunadaur temple, called the "sunset shrine" or the "teeth of ghaunadaur" and the Voidharrow inside is thwarted.

Also, with the temple being "near" the Land's Mouth that means that it wouldn't be inside it, and wouldn't be destroyed by the chasm being filled in by Ao's clean-up. (Also I still want to do my Ibrandul idea, as all the lesser deities here are the extremities of Ao iirc and thus I could use Ibrandul here to "stitch" together the land from below, with Ao sweeping some green meadows over top.) So this temple.. is still standing! Just a day's south of Easting, only a decade or two before 5e's second sundering, and with the memory of the horrible disease still present in the minds of the civilians. Priapurl probably never noticed anything at all and was never in danger of falling into the chasm as the badlands were likely far enough away.

My temporary conclusion here is that this ancient Ilythiir Ghaunadaur temple which once served as a portal for the Voidharrow, still stands untouched by any official hands since the adventure in 4e.
I am totally going to have Juibilex take a pit stop here to slather the place in demonic ichor. Actually..

.......if I place an Alkilith in the exact place where the Voidharrow portal was.. do you think it could kickstart the dangerous process all over again? That would be pretty badass.

Edit: That measurement you have cpthero would make a one-day's travel (24 miles by 5e) come to about halfway to the mountains. I have no idea if that's walking alongside the ridge of the Land's Mouth or if it never gets much closer than just being "badlands" but that whole distance measurement in 4e is screwey. Still, I think it's somewhat close to the mountains so the original quote isn't too far off.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Edited by - PattPlays on 19 Nov 2020 06:26:52
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  07:14:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Fair enough. You know, sometimes it is really difficult for me to get out of the pre-Spellplague mindset. I was completely thinking in pre-1385DR. My apologies!

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2020 :  08:13:51  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Fair enough. You know, sometimes it is really difficult for me to get out of the pre-Spellplague mindset. I was completely thinking in pre-1385DR. My apologies!

Best regards,





To quote Thel 'Vadam from my favorite science fantasy: "Were it so easy."

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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cpthero2
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USA
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Posted - 21 Nov 2020 :  23:43:26  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Indeed! I so vociferously opposed 4e, that I just didn't read anything of it, and am now only starting to tangentially read up on it out of an almost necessity.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  07:08:36  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Indeed! I so vociferously opposed 4e, that I just didn't read anything of it, and am now only starting to tangentially read up on it out of an almost necessity.

Best regards,







So many answers to the un-retcons like the Underchasm being filled by Grumbar are hidden away in the books. 5e adventures can be set as early as 1486, and the goddess of magic is still dead for years at that point. It's crazy to think of players levelling up to middle tiers as clerics and wizards when the second sundering hasn't even begun yet.
I'm set in 1487, so I get to have this cool slow rollout of the second aundering, but like, when do scholars and sages begin calling it the second sundering? Does Ao tell someone to call it that? Gods still aren't talking to their clerics for anpther few years, too! Just through cr 17 equivalent Chosen. It works out for my party well, though. A warlock of ghaunadaur is a very excellent way to have a mortal in contact with a god even when the gods are so estranged from reality. Our fighter is an eldritch knight from cormyr who never got to be a war wizard- even with mystra in flux she would still be able to learn spellplague era magic because she's not quiiiite a wizard. Our druid calls upon the natural spirits of the underdark so that's fine, and our rogue and artificers are also fine eith underdark origins.

Still, woild have been if we had actual clerics and wizards during the early age of upheaval..

Good thing nobody cares about these things in the North.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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cpthero2
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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  07:52:15  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

The crazy thing is, that there are a great many things that could have been really great Realms developments, had WotC not gone about it the way that they did. Sure, there would have been frustrated enthusiasts (like me), but the frustration would have subsided: if it had all made sense. Unfortunately, it didn't make sense, and now it feel at times like there is a significant divide between the editions, which is sad. It is too great of a setting to have that happen in.

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  16:50:33  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

The crazy thing is, that there are a great many things that could have been really great Realms developments, had WotC not gone about it the way that they did. Sure, there would have been frustrated enthusiasts (like me), but the frustration would have subsided: if it had all made sense. Unfortunately, it didn't make sense, and now it feel at times like there is a significant divide between the editions, which is sad. It is too great of a setting to have that happen in.

Best regards,





As I know it, 4e was built on feedback from the internet, as the magazines weren't doing great for the mass polling hasbro demanded. Thus the info gathered was skewed by a bias of armchair critics who had no interest in helping the game evolve and youths who hadn't played any d&d and only knew WOW and other video games as an rpg reference. So we get the push-button strategy fighter that was 4e. The 100 year timeskip is probably due to the 3e 'fans' demanding they npt tpuch the holy 1300'sdr. So the managers decree a timeskip, and creatives are forced to write away 100 years of realmslore under a crunched work schedule and use the spellplague to speed things up out of desperation and as a way to convince higher-ups with buzzword-filled promises of excitement that will draw in purchases. That fails, and wotc demands a new method of getting information for the next ruleset.

5e had a famed trial period of actually playtesting at conventions with thousands of players for several years and finding something that works, and sells the merchandice.
I don't see faults and blame and bad decisions. I see expectations, deadlines, and resources.

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  17:31:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

The crazy thing is, that there are a great many things that could have been really great Realms developments, had WotC not gone about it the way that they did. Sure, there would have been frustrated enthusiasts (like me), but the frustration would have subsided: if it had all made sense. Unfortunately, it didn't make sense, and now it feel at times like there is a significant divide between the editions, which is sad. It is too great of a setting to have that happen in.

Best regards,





As I know it, 4e was built on feedback from the internet, as the magazines weren't doing great for the mass polling hasbro demanded. Thus the info gathered was skewed by a bias of armchair critics who had no interest in helping the game evolve and youths who hadn't played any d&d and only knew WOW and other video games as an rpg reference. So we get the push-button strategy fighter that was 4e. The 100 year timeskip is probably due to the 3e 'fans' demanding they npt tpuch the holy 1300'sdr. So the managers decree a timeskip, and creatives are forced to write away 100 years of realmslore under a crunched work schedule and use the spellplague to speed things up out of desperation and as a way to convince higher-ups with buzzword-filled promises of excitement that will draw in purchases. That fails, and wotc demands a new method of getting information for the next ruleset.

5e had a famed trial period of actually playtesting at conventions with thousands of players for several years and finding something that works, and sells the merchandice.
I don't see faults and blame and bad decisions. I see expectations, deadlines, and resources.



The timeskip was all about giving the designers/writers the freedom to not worry about what came before. It was explicitly done so they didn't have to worry about prior canon.

In one of their web pieces, they actually stated that part of the problem was they were looking at the map of the Realms and couldn't find a place that someone hadn't already told a story. This is, to me, utterly ridiculous, because there are plenty of places that have never hosted a story, and it's not like only one thing will ever happen in any given location. Not only that, but they immediately proved their own words to be a lie -- one of the first novel series that came out in the 4E era was 6 books set in the same city.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  21:05:36  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

quote:
As I know it, 4e was built on feedback from the internet, as the magazines weren't doing great for the mass polling hasbro demanded. Thus the info gathered was skewed by a bias of armchair critics who had no interest in helping the game evolve and youths who hadn't played any d&d and only knew WOW and other video games as an rpg reference. So we get the push-button strategy fighter that was 4e.


I believe this to be colloquially correct. The marketing analysis, from what I can tell, was done in a manner so as to facilitate a younger, newer, market segment that would replace the older one that had spent an enormous amount of money over the years, and they were looking to revitalize their revenue model.

If you look at a bell curve of the product life cycle of 'x', it's your standard, inverted parabola. However, at the apex there is an inflection point, and prior to that point (before diving into market decline), you want to retool the product to make it look like a cubic function. That's what they were trying to do. As I've said before, with most of my work as a consultant being marketing (full plan development, not just the promotional mix, etc.), this is what it seemed like. However, you were spot on with your comment regarding their market analysis. I don't know which processes and methodologies they used, but what ever it was, was absolute crap. Companies don't seem to higher marketers anymore that can math, and that is a critical component of a marketer's job. So, you can see the end result. Hopefully that entire marketing department was fired and sent back to school for that demonstration of failure. Results matter, and we saw what those results were.

quote:
The 100 year timeskip is probably due to the 3e 'fans' demanding they npt tpuch the holy 1300'sdr. So the managers decree a timeskip, and creatives are forced to write away 100 years of realmslore under a crunched work schedule and use the spellplague to speed things up out of desperation and as a way to convince higher-ups with buzzword-filled promises of excitement that will draw in purchases. That fails, and wotc demands a new method of getting information for the next ruleset.


This was answered by Bruce Cordell in Drgaon #366, August 2008 during an interview where Bruce said,
quote:
Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new Forgotten Realms setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products. How do you do something like that without reinventing the entire world? A two-fold plan emerged: A great leap into the future would allow nearly every part of Faerûn to
appear fresh to everyone, both new fans and old. No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings. Every place would have some element of novelty simply because a century can’t pass without even the most stable of kingdoms seeing some shift or alteration. The other part of the plan involved literally bringing completely “new” lands into the Forgotten Realms setting. With Ed Greenwood’s help, the real forgotten realm of Abeir returned to Toril, in the midst of a cataclysm of unleashed wild magic.


quote:
5e had a famed trial period of actually playtesting at conventions with thousands of players for several years and finding something that works, and sells the merchandice.
I don't see faults and blame and bad decisions. I see expectations, deadlines, and resources.


That very well may be the case. I stopped paying attention with 4e, so I can't say I am familiar with it, though I have no reason to disbelieve your point of course. Even if the marketing plan was developed correctly/well for the 5e rollout, there were issues speaking as a person who didn't pay attention and can look at the outcome from a consumer and a marketer's perspective.

5e seems to have engaged newer people to the game, for sure. However, there is more than one market segment. Older consumers are going to on average, based on purchase history (as admitted by game store owners, not WotC, since they are secret squirrels), be less price elastic, have greater disposable income, and be more committed through the AOI's that are known to WotC, instead of AOI's that are only assumed. WotC sort of went uni-input on their resources and pushed an all out commitment to producing a product line that was essentially anathema to the tastes and preferences of the existing market base in what I think amounts to wishful thinking everyone would sort of kumbaya it out in the end.

Apparently WotC forgot what the root of 'fan' is, lol

Best regards,






Higher Atlar
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

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Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  21:39:15  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Apparently WotC forgot what the root of 'fan' is, lol
Best regards,


Well as we saw with DND Beyond's explosion, you can assemble all the definitions of 'fan' you like and still be surprised by fans you never anticipated. They can find endless wealth in people who came to them for no other reason than they saw others having fun with your product and came onboard. Sure there has been a ton of advertising for DND Beyond's services but the wave of success came as a total surprise to everyone I'm sure.

I was -on- the D&D beyond forums in the beta. It was INTENDED to be a twitch partnered plugin to count conditions and more in your livestreamed d&d games. Just some silly digital accessory. Their forums even used that same twitch-related hosting service that the minecraft forums used. Then out of nowhere their SRD style database got monetized and thousands of fans demanded to be allowed to throw money at it. I'd like to say that thousands of fans were duped into paying tens of thousands of dollars to buy the same books a second time, but it's pretty clear that this unprecedented audience made that platform a cash cow out of their own accord. I'll keep my further opinions about digital books to myself..

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1812 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2020 :  22:06:09  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe PattPlays,

quote:
Well as we saw with DND Beyond's explosion, you can assemble all the definitions of 'fan' you like and still be surprised by fans you never anticipated.


I do agree with that. I have seen many a plan be put out, to find that unexpected market developments came out of nowhere. It is a super nice experience for any company to have.

I will say, in all attempts to be as fair as I can about something I love so much, the barrier to enter into the Forgotten Realms is enormous, from a lore standpoint. Bruce Cordell's interview in 2008 made that point clear. That's actually why I find sites, specifically like Candlekeep here, to be so important to maintaining the Realms we know and love. Having us old folk helping the newer folk come aboard, experience the Realms, and feel welcome can lower that bar. I've had players be extremely reticent to join one of my Realms campaigns because they didn't have any of the material and felt that they were like 30 years behind. The intimidation factor can be pretty big from what I have observed.

quote:
They can find endless wealth in people who came to them for no other reason than they saw others having fun with your product and came onboard. Sure there has been a ton of advertising for DND Beyond's services but the wave of success came as a total surprise to everyone I'm sure.


I can't disagree with that point. I think the bridge that should have been done, that I think a site like Candlekeep facilitates, is welcoming people. Helping them through the mountains of lore, to make it useable.

We certainly don't want the Realms to go the way of Star Fleet Battles, lol.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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PattPlays
Learned Scribe

210 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  02:07:19  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, still no clue on that Gargauth Temple the legendary Markustay was referencing in that thread I linked. I haven't gone back to that thread yet, been way too exhausted to do another frenzied blind lore search. Finding the Elemental Eye 4e module was a complete shot in the dark.

Edit: Never shared the link I guess.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21817&whichpage=4
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.

I've just run into a problem with this, as well.

As I've been fiddling with this particular region (Chult - Old Empires - Shining South), I realized I have to first finish at least this portion of my large continental map, because I need a base-point before I can change anything. To that end, I've been getting in the last few rivers, etc. Just now I was drawing that river that goes from Lake Lhespan to the Great Rift - the river that flows underground on the 3e maps (and one would assume continue forward on the 4e maps... if that region had survived).

Except it was never supposed to go underground. I'm working off the Fonstad Atlas map, which is based off Ed's originals (and I even have a few of those, so I can attest to the fact that she followed Ed's maps religiously), and you can clearly see that the river enters a tight gorge (crevasse?) and goes into the Great Rift. The layout was a bit different in 0e/1e/2e and the landrise was pretty damn close to the Rift, and the floor of the Great Rift looks to be at the same altitude as the land on the other side of the Landrise, so really, rather then a big 'hole', what you have there is a HUGE plateau with a chunk missing out of it. The bottom of the Great Rift doesn't appear to go below sea Level (which makes perfect sense, if you think about that river). If its been 'filled' in' for 5e, that puts it back to that state, and anything in there is ABOVE sea level, NOT in the Underdark.

So here's the problem - Pelevaran was created in 3e, and it only makes sense in 3e, with the 'inaccurate' maps. Unless the city sits astride the crevasse, and why would anyone build a city like that? I'm picturing The Aerie now from GoT - "I want to see the man fly, mommy!"

I suppose it works for waste-disposal - everything just falls out the bottom and eventually hits the river, to get washed away. Saves on plumbing, anyway.

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).

So the original temple should have stood at ground (sea) level, where the river exits the crevasse, and the dwarves could have just constructed everything else on top of it. Picture the dwarven portion looking like a wedge driven into the chasm, and the humans would have had a settlement on top of that, at the level of the upper Landrise (Eastern Shaar). It would have been useful also to get from the bottom to the top of the landrise, internally. All this would have possibly been done back when the Arkaiun first arrived in the Council Hills (a group of people with a 'fiendish' past, and this happens about a decade after the Orcgate wars, so their was a deific power-vacuum).

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, RIP Pluto: :IRC lives:


https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com

T_P_T

Edited by - PattPlays on 23 Nov 2020 02:09:44
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

757 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  14:22:09  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

By the way, still no clue on that Gargauth Temple the legendary Markustay was referencing in that thread I linked. I haven't gone back to that thread yet, been way too exhausted to do another frenzied blind lore search. Finding the Elemental Eye 4e module was a complete shot in the dark.



The Dark Pit of Maleficence in Peleveran? That's from 2E Powers & Pantheons under "Majors Centers of Worship" for Gargauth (and might be referenced in other places, but there is quite a bit of info there).
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1804 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2020 :  01:42:17  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
So the Voidharrow and the Abyssal Plague (I never thought I'd research this again after browsing the topic earlier this year) happened on Toril, was dealt with by either interplanar superheroes or small-time adventurers, and then the world just moved on.



The main plot of the Abyssal Plague happened in the Nentir Vale and was resolved in the main trilogy of the Abyssal Plague novels. The main body of the Voidharrow was defeated there by heroes of the Vale.

What happened in the Realms were like... aftereffects? What was sent to the Realms (and Eberron and Dark Sun) were just minor agents of the Voidharrow, and were dealt with by the heroes of the novels. And a small fragment of the Voidharrow, that is dealt with in the adventure in Easting.

I wonder what happened to the fragment of the Voidharrow that was sent to Eberron...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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