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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  21:30:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, yes, that's a good approach. We have to remember that between 3.5 and 4e there are almost 100 years of difference (94 years, to be exact), and something like that can happen.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15672 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  21:52:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, Brian - what map did you use as a base for that? I can't get it to lineup with what I have (the only one I no longer use for a reference is 3e, because obviously that edition was 'incorrect' about the geography, since we've returned to the earlier layout). Since thats 4e, I guess I should assume you used 3e as the base map?

I'm going to have to do some weird stretching to see how stuff falls out with the newer (older) geography. I'm trying to throw-together (real 'fast & dirty' - I don't want to bog down with yet another project) of how I see things may have more organically 'evolved', if we say the seas came in and then retreated. Besides the bunch of tiny islands for the city itself, I am also picturing the Alamber Sea filled with dozens of islands now, and I am going to have to superimpose the pre-cataclysm map with the post-cataclysm map to get an approximation of what 4e should/could be.

EDIT:
I just tried the 3e map, and I can't get that one to lineup either. There's really no way to make any of that work. What are we having a problem with? (aside from the inconsistent lore about Mourktar.) Is it the fact that the SCAG/5e says Tymanther is still there?

EDIT2:
Okay, so now I am looking at the 4e map (which I haven't looked at in at least 7 years), and I remember why I stopped looking at it. But I had to, to see where all these problems are stemming from.

Lance lake?
As if 'Ash Lake' wasn't bad enough ("lets take the one area that already has a few good lakes, and move them all around!") I am getting that same feeling I had back in 2007... and I didn't miss it.

So I am just going to ignore all of that for now and ask another (somewhat related) question: What about Lurien? Its not even there! There was no terrain-swap with Abeir - its literally just a giant hole. Does anyone know about Luiren in 5e? I think that may be even harder than patching Halruaa and the Chultan peninsula back together. In fact, I know it is. At least the Halruaans had magic you can blame stuff on.

No wonder Mike Schley's 5e map stops where it does. No one can figure out how to show that mess. I was told "the geography all went back to the old layout" by someone who should know, but if they are keeping some of the 4e changes, thats going to be impossible to rectify. I got a ginormous hole where a country used to be!

EDIT3
The one thing I DO like is that the Great Sea is now connected to the Alamber sea (it might be 'seasonal' - hard to tell with that map). THAT could be interesting - it changes trade quite a bit, and makes formally unimportant regions very important. I may have to play with that a bit - they seem to have lost an entire mountain range (mountains don't just get 'washed away'), and if the mountains became a string of islands... survivors?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2017 03:17:47
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15672 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  22:54:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Enough edits...

Looking at Mike Schley's pre-5e (Sundering?) B&W map of the Realms, I see they had already 'lost' Lance lake at that point, so I'll just consider that a 'mistake' on the ugly 4e map (maybe stick a small lake with that name down there somewhere.

And then there is the Underchasm, and all that mess. Any word on any of that? Are the dwarves all gone? Whats the deal there?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2017 04:08:48
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  23:05:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I get that the 4e map may not be taken seriously, but these are HUGE landmasses changing, so it might be worth looking into.

Take a second look at BRJ's map versus the 4e map, and then compare that to the 3e map and the 2e map. I have both BRJ's chessenta map and the 4e map as JPEG's. I've got them up side by side right now. I won't say you could overlay one on top of the other, but its damn close enough, especially given that the two are nowhere near the same scale.

Meanwhile the comparison side by side of say the 3e map versus the 4e map for this old empires and unapproachable east regions is also worth comparing. I say this because we especially now know that portions of the old empires did in fact transfer to and survive in Abeir. So, let us take a moment and see what can be done with this (noting, I haven't performed this exercise yet for Mulhorand, so this will be somewhat new for me as well).

So, let's say start at the westernmost part of the Alamber and move east.

In the Akanul area, the cities of Hlath and Reth are roughly replaced by New Breen and Brassune. Note: Thayan enclave documented in Hlath. If it transferred to Abeir, it becomes a potential point for some red wizards for my United Tharchs of Toril.

Laothkund and a large portion of both the wizard's reach and the Yuirwood north of it "drowned" or disappeared. We should note that the wizard's reach was populated by Chessentans/Untherites originally. Loathkund was loosely controlled by the red wizards ever since the salamander war when they conquered it. With the civil war going on at the time of the spellplague, there may have been even more red wizards in the wizard's reach area (because we know that this is where the Zulkirs also eventually fled to). So, leading up to the spellplague, Laothkund and Escalant just may have held more red wizards than usual (and ones not liking Tam at that). NOTE TO SELF: Another great place for already having a small "United Tharchs of Toril" presence that suddenly returns, especially since the other Zulkirs were still holed up in Escalant in the wizard's reach in 1478 DR. Especially since I'm also talking about having Cimbar and Soorenar "copied" over somewhat sloppily (thus the ruins here).

A large portion on the western side of the Bay of Chessenta appeared to have "risen" or perhaps a new land mass appeared from Abeir (this area became swampland).

Continuing East, we come to Threskel, where it seems like the main peninsula area that jutted out into the Alamber is gone, which is where Mourktar had been. Contiguous to this mass of land and islands, portions of Northern Unther around what would have been Messemprar and Shusssel and possibly some of the Riders to the Sky Mountains and some interior land to the southeast of each is gone. So, basically much of "northern Unther".

Moving southward from there, we see more land uncovered near Unthlass, taking it away from the shore and large juts of land shooting out on the Mulhorand side near Gheldaneth and the "ruins of Skuld". To my knowledge, nothing ever done with this extra land add-on. Also, it appears that the "ruins of Skuld" is moved inwards from where Skuld would have existed previously (i.e. it was NW of Gheldaneth before, now its NE). Where "Skyclave" now exists would appear to be where Skuld had been. Ironic since "Skyclave" is in the same spot as the previous capital of Mulhorand, and it is the new capital of High Imaskar. Makes me really wonder about Ususi's role in the spellplague (if any) and when EXACTLY the palace of the purple emperor moved and its ties to the celestial nadir and pandorym. Might we find out that the Palace of the Purple Emperor actually displaced Skuld DURING the spellplague? Might the movement of this place actually have had something to do with the spellplague just as Nevram thought? NOTE TO SELF: going with the previous idea of certain of these areas that are ruins copying over, perhaps imperfectly, resulting in the ruins. This could be a good area to have copied over containing Mulhorandi that didn't bow to the Tyrant of Shyr and still worshipped the Mulhorandi gods.

Then moving further north up the Mulhorandi coastline we see the area that would have been roughly Sultim, Rauthgor, and Rauthil gone (like they too may have disappeared as a big old > shape is dug out of the coastline along a river). Below that are two other long jabs into the land that could have in theory taken out the city of Maerlar as well. None of these though, other than Sultim were anything major, so even if they stayed, not anything major. However, if they did have large contiguous section transfer they might have all gathered say at Sultim and become a city-state.





Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  23:19:20  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Answers I know:

Tymanther: Yep, is still there. And geographically seems to be the same as of 4e. Thank Enlil (Erin) for that. (?)

Luirien: In 4e Luirien was drowned by a great inundation. The SCAG says that the water level has receded since, and the territory now have islands and such (but is still a drowned area).

Underschasm: Was filled by Grumbar. The East Rift is probably not filled up, as the earth used to fill the Underchasm does not rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter, which lay on lower ground than the Rift before the Spellplague.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Jul 2017 23:25:10
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  23:34:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Re: Mourktar and the Maps.

Zeromaru X's suggestion will probably keep us the sanest--just ignore the 4E Maps, and try and draw them as best we can by using what we know from the canon.

I think the bigger issue we are facing is not the maps themselves. It is where canon contradicts itself--where a place is both a ruin on Toril and somehow transferred to Abeir.

I think it was Zeromaru X who also suggested that we say that we are not dealing with "one" for "one" giant land transfers, but rather bits and pieces swapped. This allows us to say certain sections of the city were swapped to Abeir, parts of Abeir were swapped to Toril and destroyed the rest of the city that was left behind. Those who made it to Abeir, if the place appears to still exist, simply rebuilt it.

...we say something like that, then we can sort of just yada, yada, yada away and pretend that it all makes sense. Trying to over explain something will drive us insane, especially since the original decision to do what was done was so hamfisted. Just find the most simple explanation possible that does not require us to think too deeply about it, then quickly move on--no point in spilling ink over someone elses mistake. We will just paper over it with future lore, and maybe try and find some way to write serious mistakes out of existence. (I.E. A city exists in two places, so we use the Candlekanon to explain how this is possible, and then destroy one of them.)

....Meanwhile, I am working on writing something for the Cult of Gilgeam. I will share it when it is done. I have been reading and going through old lore, and I have been super busy the past couple of days. Everything that has shared has been immensely useful.




Well, you'll see where I just posted a kind of review of the 4e map and how we MIGHT turn it into things. I think that can be useful.

However, yes, I agree that its best to gloss as best we can. I actually have I think a good explanation for the idea of areas that were "ruins" in Toril but actually transferred to Abeir. Essentially some placed "mostly transferred" and some of it was "mostly copied" as in it left a copy of some things on Toril AND on Abeir. By that I mean the building may have transferred, to Abeir, but the joists in the wall in one section had some new found gaps. Maybe the neighboring building didn't transfer at all. Maybe some of the citizens transferred safely, some stayed behind, and some... well, let's just say its like a star trek transporter accident.

In doing it this way, we can return places that we liked (like Cimbar and Soorenar) and use their return in a way to create some conflict or interesting interactions with the places that essentially took their place.... because let's fact it, Erebos is a smaller version of Cimbar and Pandrick is a smaller version of Akanax. By that I mean that the Chessentan city of Erebos can still be around, but it can now be a sister city to Cimbar. Or it can remain as Tchazzar's seat of power (since according to the SCAG he's back again), and Cimbar can be the seat of power that he wants to retake (and the people of Cimbar and Soorenar oppose him, having seen dragon kings in Abeir).

Akanax could also "return" (yes, I know its on BRJ's map of Chessenta, but I don't think there was any lore on it), and maybe its actually not like the old city was. Maybe its people have been shattered, and their brethren in Pandrick help them remember their warrior spirit to break the yoke of their genasi overlords that have moved in.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  23:35:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?


The original sketch map I designed for the 4E Chessenta article originally covered a much wider area (covering the same square miles as Vaasa and Cormyr maps that proceeded it). In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.

Sadly, there was no traffic cop coordinating content between the designers and novel department, so RLB was unaware this map existed when penning his novels set in the region.

And just for fun, here is a pic of the sketch map I started working on for Tymanther.



Did you actually hand draw that? Damn, I wish I had artistic skill.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  23:50:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.

Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.

Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.

And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).



Actually, the more I think on it, the more I like the idea that some areas "slid" as things transferred. However, in their "sliding" perhaps they also copied, and maybe didn't "copy" so well. So, like half the city remained and half was ruined.... and it ended up 300 miles westward or eastward of where it was previously on Toril. If we take this "rule", it can explain Mourktar still being around but being more westward. We can also explain Skuld being eastward of where it should Maybe Cimbar didn't actually have the coast rise near it... maybe it "slid" away from the coast and left behind a pile of ruins (while it copied to Abeir).... and with all the people either gone or dead, no one could really figure out the truth in the madness following the spellplague.

You know, to a degree, it could be ALMOST like the Citadel of the Purple Emperor was transferred to where Skuld, the City of Shadows, was and there were these ripples of reality changing that blasted out heavily impacting the areas near it. Wonder if the Celestial Nadir with its extradimensional space..... hmmmm, not completing that sentence until I think more.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  23:52:10  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar?


Nope. The entire region is a hot mess when it comes to layout, maps, and lore. To re-quote Zeromaru X:

quote:
Well, yes. Most of it was left deliberately unclear. Not even Erin had idea of what WotC wanted by doing that (I talked with her a lot about those novels). So, that is the official material we have to work with.

...

I asked Erin about this, and Erin said that WotC retconned the much of 4e lore while working on their Sundering plot. So, in 4e Unther was actually and utterly destroyed. But they changed/retconned that to return Unther in 5e.


As far as I know Erin has spent more time working on and thinking about this region than other authors in the post-Sundering era. So, Erin's work is the closest thing we have to something that is canon.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas was built further away from the original coast. so parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.

And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).


I like this idea. Maybe the land itself also shifted, helping protect some of the old city. This could have divided the city into three layers, facing the ocean.

The lowest layer, the canal district, is where the land used to be--the entire area was destroyed and wiped clean by the tsunamis that swept the region in the wake of the Spellplague. The survivors of Mourktar dredged the soils to raise the marshy ground above the tides. Numerous tiny marshy islands make up this district, which is traveled by its canal-like streets. In addition to both the docks and the warehouses found here, the other area of major interest is the Maiden's Keep, a temple constructed in honor of the goddess Lovitar, consort of Lord Bane, which also functions as a prison that houses the criminals, mentally ill, political prisoners, and socially undesirables of Mourktar.

The next highest layer is divided from the canal district by a 60-foot high escarpment. This district houses the old city, and its escarpment serves as a natural wall between the canal below and the city proper above. Along the escarpment are defensive fortifications, as well as small towers housing siege equipment--such as trebuchets, catapults, and ballistas--all of which is aimed toward the sea. The only way to get from the canal district to the old city is through the canal gate. Due to the natural defense of the escarpment, as well as the other defenses of the city, Mourktar is all but impossible to take from the sea.

There are two areas of primary interest in the Old City. The first is the Citadel of the Black Lord's Cloak, the seat of the largest and most powerful temple of Bane in the Realms. The Citadel sustained only minor damage during the events of the Spellplague and has been standing now for centuries. The second is the Onyx Spire, which functions as both a wizard's college, as well as a massive lighthouse for the city. The Onyx Mask's, founded by renegade Red Wizards fleeing the take over of Thay, pledged themselves to Bane in exchange for safety, and as a result, they control the tower and arcane magic use within the city.

The third city layer, separated by yet another escarpment--this one only 25-feet high--separates the old city from the new city. The new city was constructed after the Spellplague, and serves as the central hub through which traffic passes to and from Threskel into the city itself. It is the only land entry point, as the entire city is surrounded by a 30-foot wall. The primary gate leading into the city, known as the Black Lord's Gate, leads travelers onto the market street. Traveling down market street, one soon finds the Old Gate, which leads to the old city. Of interest here is the Black Lord's Emporium, a shop that sells confiscated weapons and goods taken from criminals and other ne'er-do-wells, in addition to buying and selling exotic items of all sorts.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  00:22:42  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.

Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.

Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.

And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).



Actually, the more I think on it, the more I like the idea that some areas "slid" as things transferred. However, in their "sliding" perhaps they also copied, and maybe didn't "copy" so well. So, like half the city remained and half was ruined.... and it ended up 300 miles westward or eastward of where it was previously on Toril. If we take this "rule", it can explain Mourktar still being around but being more westward. We can also explain Skuld being eastward of where it should Maybe Cimbar didn't actually have the coast rise near it... maybe it "slid" away from the coast and left behind a pile of ruins (while it copied to Abeir).... and with all the people either gone or dead, no one could really figure out the truth in the madness following the spellplague.

You know, to a degree, it could be ALMOST like the Citadel of the Purple Emperor was transferred to where Skuld, the City of Shadows, was and there were these ripples of reality changing that blasted out heavily impacting the areas near it. Wonder if the Celestial Nadir with its extradimensional space..... hmmmm, not completing that sentence until I think more.



I think using something like moving the Palace of the Purple Emperor could serve as a good explanation for why this region is so messed up. I mean, if you look at other areas that transferred, they seemed to transfer "cleanly." However, this region is a huge mess. One way to explain that is to say that the Palace of the Purple Emperor screwed up the magics of this region.

So, we could claim, that the land down here became extremely mutable. Some of it shifted wildly, while huge chunks from Abeir appeared randomly in the air, crashing down to the earth. The largest continuous transfer was the land that would eventually become Tymanther.

So, imagine it from the perspective of someone living in a city. Randomly parts of the city begin disappearing, some sections the size of entire blocks, in some cases just a building, and in some cases just parts of buildings. People are transferred and swapped. In some cases only "parts" of people transfer (with the obvious consequences).

I would, if at all possible, attempt to avoid copying. If a particular building of importance exists on both sides, then we should just assume that it was rebuilt on one side or another. If it was ruined on both sides, then it is a partial transfer.

Something like that keeps it simple and helps us avoid headaches down the road.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  00:26:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Answers I know:

Tymanther: Yep, is still there. And geographically seems to be the same as of 4e. Thank Enlil (Erin) for that. (?)

Luirien: In 4e Luirien was drowned by a great inundation. The SCAG says that the water level has receded since, and the territory now have islands and such (but is still a drowned area).

Underschasm: Was filled by Grumbar. The East Rift is probably not filled up, as the earth used to fill the Underchasm does not rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter, which lay on lower ground than the Rift before the Spellplague.



On the Underchasm. Why do you think it doesn't rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter or that Sadrak's splinter didn't rise (though I'm not really sure of its actual height... probably the novel does describe it)? I know that's where Kleef and Arietta put Gruumsh's eye into the statue representing Grumbar's hand. Anyway, regarding this chasm, I was just assuming that the Eastern Shaar returned as it had been as far as most of its landscape (complete with the landrise). I'm also picturing it as exceptionally fertile, unlike the savannah that was, though that may not be the case.

Oh, though I am keeping like an outer edge of the "underchasm" as a small break between the area I'm calling "the Tharch of Peleveran". Basically a rift in the earth that forms a hard border with a bridge to give it some minor protection from encroaching armies (this bridge actually crossing where the city of Hardcastle is on the 3e map and extending down to and integrating with "the great rift... and this rift may be filled with dwarves or something else).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jul 2017 00:32:28
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  00:45:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.

Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.

Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.

And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).



Actually, the more I think on it, the more I like the idea that some areas "slid" as things transferred. However, in their "sliding" perhaps they also copied, and maybe didn't "copy" so well. So, like half the city remained and half was ruined.... and it ended up 300 miles westward or eastward of where it was previously on Toril. If we take this "rule", it can explain Mourktar still being around but being more westward. We can also explain Skuld being eastward of where it should Maybe Cimbar didn't actually have the coast rise near it... maybe it "slid" away from the coast and left behind a pile of ruins (while it copied to Abeir).... and with all the people either gone or dead, no one could really figure out the truth in the madness following the spellplague.

You know, to a degree, it could be ALMOST like the Citadel of the Purple Emperor was transferred to where Skuld, the City of Shadows, was and there were these ripples of reality changing that blasted out heavily impacting the areas near it. Wonder if the Celestial Nadir with its extradimensional space..... hmmmm, not completing that sentence until I think more.



I think using something like moving the Palace of the Purple Emperor could serve as a good explanation for why this region is so messed up. I mean, if you look at other areas that transferred, they seemed to transfer "cleanly." However, this region is a huge mess. One way to explain that is to say that the Palace of the Purple Emperor screwed up the magics of this region.

So, we could claim, that the land down here became extremely mutable. Some of it shifted wildly, while huge chunks from Abeir appeared randomly in the air, crashing down to the earth. The largest continuous transfer was the land that would eventually become Tymanther.

So, imagine it from the perspective of someone living in a city. Randomly parts of the city begin disappearing, some sections the size of entire blocks, in some cases just a building, and in some cases just parts of buildings. People are transferred and swapped. In some cases only "parts" of people transfer (with the obvious consequences).

I would, if at all possible, attempt to avoid copying. If a particular building of importance exists on both sides, then we should just assume that it was rebuilt on one side or another. If it was ruined on both sides, then it is a partial transfer.

Something like that keeps it simple and helps us avoid headaches down the road.



Yeah, this is exactly kind of like what I was picturing. It would have a necessary thing that we would have to accept though. As far as I know we don't have a definitive date for WHEN Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, so this would be saying that she did it during the spellplague (which didn't necessarily all happen at once, just like not everything returned at once). So that brings up the question... is there somewhere in some novel or somesuch that actually delves on this more that maybe I haven't read? If not, I'm hesitantly saying that I like my own idea here, and I'd love to see how others might add spin to it.

I agree that copying does make things harder. So anyplace that's ruined, I'm going to say "transferred better but not perfectly". That gives me Cimbar and Soorenar to bring back (with sections ruined and rebuilt), and I want those two.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  00:45:58  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  00:56:17  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, this is exactly kind of like what I was picturing. It would have a necessary thing that we would have to accept though. As far as I know we don't have a definitive date for WHEN Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, so this would be saying that she did it during the spellplague (which didn't necessarily all happen at once, just like not everything returned at once). So that brings up the question... is there somewhere in some novel or somesuch that actually delves on this more that maybe I haven't read? If not, I'm hesitantly saying that I like my own idea here, and I'd love to see how others might add spin to it.


Perhaps a more elemental question: how long did it take for all the events of the Spellplague to play out? I always imagined it happening over about 48 hours. However, does canon give any hint for how long it took to play out? A month? A year? A decade? How long was the land itself mutable?

We may not have an exact date for when Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, but do we know if it happened before or after the Spellplague? You also mentioned previously that this idea comes from Nevram the Mulan mage responsible for the fall of returned Imaskar... he thinks moving the Palace of the Purple Emperor has something to do with it... where does he say that, why does he say it, and how is it phrased? That is our best clue.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  01:27:19  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

(and the people of Cimbar and Soorenar oppose him, having seen dragon kings in Abeir).


The dragon kingdoms of Abeir were mostly located in Laerakond (Returned Abeir). Shyr was the realm of Karshimis, who the dragons hated. Remember that dragons in Abeir started the same as the dragonborn: as slaves of the primordials. They gained power after a rebellion (the War of Fang and Talon), but somehow Karshimis returned from "death". So, the dragon kingdoms that weren't in Laerakond (and thus, remained on Abeir after the Spellplague) will obviously oppose Karshimis' Shyr.

What this means? That to those under the yoke of Karshimis and the Shyran genasi, or their descendants, Tchazzar is a f*king hero.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the Underchasm. Why do you think it doesn't rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter or that Sadrak's splinter didn't rise (though I'm not really sure of its actual height... probably the novel does describe it)?


Is what Lirdolin said here.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.



The WotC guys used a divination spell and saw that someday we will created the Candlekanon, and said: "those guys are doing a great work! We will leave this decision for them to handle". (?)

More seriously, thought, dunno. Gargauth isn't even dealt with in 4e.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Perhaps a more elemental question: how long did it take for all the events of the Spellplague to play out? I always imagined it happening over about 48 hours. However, does canon give any hint for how long it took to play out? A month? A year? A decade? How long was the land itself mutable?


I compiled most of those infos here:
The Spellplague
The Wailing Years

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15672 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  04:08:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EDIT: Here is a link to Mike Schley's B&W Faerûn Map, which I believe was done FOR the Sundering. I must have been looking at the wrong spot - NOW I see Lance Lake. {sigh}

I don't really recall the fine details of the Darkvision novel, but I got the idea that Pandorym - like most Elder Evils - had some sort of connection to the Far Realms (directly or indirectly, they all seem to have some sort of 'corruption' going on).

I'm not a big fan of The Far Realms (although you'd think how many times I use it in my lore I would be), but it is extremely helpful n explaining-away a lot of 'magical chaos'. If the Palace of the Purple Emperor (and the Celestial Nadir) is some sort of 'power node' (like Faersrezz and elemental nodes) for pure chaos, then it would make sense moving it - especially during a time of massive magical upheaval - would have a 'ripple effect' on the landscape, making it almost fluid-like. Some of how I picture demons and chaos working in D&D/fantasy comes from Fred Saberhagen, and his masterpiece, Empire of the East. He had an uber-'demon' named Zapranoth (sounds like a cousin of Pandorym), and here is a quote of how he described the demon's 'entry' into the story -
quote:
"The earth seemed to sink down beneath his feet, as stretched cloth would yield to the weight of a walking man."

or the Beast-Lord Draffut, 'impregnated' with elemental life -
quote:
It was as if he walked in snow or gravel, instead of solid stone; for at his touch, rock melted, not with heat but as if quickening briefly into crawling life, to quiet again when he had passed.


This is how I picture beings of unimaginable magnitude - and pure chaos - interacting with the merely mortal world. The PotPE may have had just such an effect on the landscape. And what if it also summoned its own terrain around itself, that would appear around it like someone pouring sand in a pool of water... except the 'water' is really the normal terrain of FR being displaced as the substance of pure chaos appears in the Realms.

Also, Sleyvas - I think you are maybe looking at the maps the wrong way - you seem to think a lot of land was 'added' randomly. That was just the shallow parts of the past water-bodies. The Bay of Chelimber didn't fill-in to create that marsh, it was drained. The water was rushing out of the SoFS into the Alamber and then on down into the Underchasm (how the entirety of the Underdark wasn't flooded in that century I'll never know). This is why (supposedly) all former 'coastal cities' wound-up 25-50 miles away from the new coastline (which was never actually reflected on any Heartlands map).

As for all the cities moving around - I manged to get at least a few to line-up together, with much finagling (resizing, rotating, AND stretching), but I think the basic problem stems from the 4e campaign map being 'representative', or 'abstract', rather then highly accurate. More like how old maps of the world were a couple of centuries ago - nothing was precisely placed like it is on modern maps. Rich Baker said as much back when he was still answering questions over on the WotC forums (and I greatly appreciated his honesty in that regard - I am sure he caught flack for his comments about how 'underwhelmed' he was with it).

Moving forward, some folks seemed to have taken the craptastic 4e map as 'a precise map of the Realms', which it was never meant to be. So cities fell-out in the wrong spots on better-made maps, because they were just being copied over from the primitive, inaccurate 4e campaign map. When those better maps came out, the 4e map should have been mostly disregarded, except as 'suggestion', and everything built off of canon text (and past maps superimposed) instead. Add to that that the bad 4e map was made from the the pretty yet very inaccurate 3e map, and the problems escalate.

I can probably do a fairly decent mock-up fairly quickly of how I think things should look (taking into account both RW physics AND 'magical chaos'). Islands where Luiren was intrigues me. I also like to still have a fairly close-yet-separate group of large islands for the arm of the Chultan peninsula. I don't think any map I do would even go that far west, though.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2017 13:12:09
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  05:55:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: Here is a link to Mike Schley's B&W Faerûn Map, which I believe was done FOR the Sundering. I must have been looking at the wrong spot - NOW I see Lance Lake. {sigh}



Oh, this map is beautiful... I prefer it to the one from the FRCG.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  08:52:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.



Yep, I can see you're starting to see where I'm taking some things in my own stuff. Gargauth has been gone the last century. What if Peleveran went to Abeir, which is my assumption. I'm actually having my red wizards and some Chessentans from Cimbar and Soorenar and Hlath (and maybe Laothkund) actually head south and build a society in Peleveran and then eventually spreading over a small portion of the eastern Shaar.

On Cimbar and Soorenar, I'm actually having them awaken an avatar of Velsharoon in Soorenar from his phylactery in the Tower Terrible. In return, he raises an army of undead to protect these two cities and the people that remain behind. These undead become kind of special. See below where I give a little history for the Aulkir of Evocation of the Tharch of Peleveran.

School of Evocation (Aulkir) Ythazz Buvarr, Aulkir of Evocation for the Tharch of Peleveran, demilich, resides in the city of Soorenar. Ythazz Buvarr was one of the red wizards who started the original Thayan rebellion against Mulhorand, and it is rumored that it was as a lich that he met the then mortal archmage Velsharoon and his fellow “red wizards” in Halruaa before leading them to Thay. He also helped found the original Zulkirate, and subsequently began studies to become an even more powerful demilich. It was only after achieving this goal that he was entrapped beneath the city of Bezantur, where he stayed until he was found by necromancer-priests of Velsharoon and magically transported to the city of Soorenar to protect the physical Phylactery of Mellifleur in Velsharoon's Tower Terrible and surrounding temple complex in Nightal of 1384 DR. The priests did not know where they transported the lich to, only that their god required them to find him and touch his skull to act as a conduit of his divine will.
When the city of Soorenar transferred to Abeir during the spellplague and Mimuay freed the avatar of Velsharoon from his phylactery, Ythazz Buvarr was also freed from his required vigil. He was however tasked by Velsharoon to “protect the cities of Soorenar and Cimbar until they are restored to Toril”. Velsharoon, using Mimuay as a conduit, then did cast a powerful ritual of necromancy that pulled thousands of Chessentans, dragonborn and genasi from their graves for hundreds of miles. Savras, using Zulkir Yaphyll as a conduit, then blessed these undead with the ability to see through magical disguises and other divinatory blessings. Leira, using Zulkir Mythrell'aa, also granted these undead the ability to cloak themselves in illusions to hide their undead nature and appear as their former selves. Finally, Auppenser, working through a sentient magic crystal possessed by Yaphyll, awakened a spark of their former consciousness, such that these beings could hold conversations, and it is whispered that some of these undead can even peer into the minds of others and perceive their thoughts. These undead are tasked with protecting the living of Cimbar and Soorenar. "Reborn Chessenta" has since swelled with populations of genasi and dragonborn (who are treated as second class citizens by the Mulans and Chessentans of these cities) seeking the freedoms of this land over the oppression of Shyr. Many of them treat the undead surrounding their territory with great reverence, for they are their own ancestors.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  09:01:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, this is exactly kind of like what I was picturing. It would have a necessary thing that we would have to accept though. As far as I know we don't have a definitive date for WHEN Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, so this would be saying that she did it during the spellplague (which didn't necessarily all happen at once, just like not everything returned at once). So that brings up the question... is there somewhere in some novel or somesuch that actually delves on this more that maybe I haven't read? If not, I'm hesitantly saying that I like my own idea here, and I'd love to see how others might add spin to it.


Perhaps a more elemental question: how long did it take for all the events of the Spellplague to play out? I always imagined it happening over about 48 hours. However, does canon give any hint for how long it took to play out? A month? A year? A decade? How long was the land itself mutable?

We may not have an exact date for when Ususi transferred the Palace of the Purple Emperor, but do we know if it happened before or after the Spellplague? You also mentioned previously that this idea comes from Nevram the Mulan mage responsible for the fall of returned Imaskar... he thinks moving the Palace of the Purple Emperor has something to do with it... where does he say that, why does he say it, and how is it phrased? That is our best clue.



Oh, and if I misspelled earlier, its Nezram. Not sure why Nevram was in my head.

He doesn't think the moving of the palace is responsible necessarily. It doesn't say truly WHAT he thinks was the cause. It just says who he blames for the symptoms. HOWEVER, now that I reread it, he felt the disturbance of the spellplague and returned to Toril to find Mulhorand already changed and the Imaskari already in the area. It does sound like we can give a definitive of Ususi did some kind of move of the Palace of the Purple Emperor roughly AROUND the time of the spellplague.

Here's what the 4e FRCG says

"A powerful wizard survived Mulhorand’s fall: Nezram the World-Walker. Nezram was long absent from his homeland, planewalking on the trail of an ancient race of serpent people, but the crossplane catastrophe of the Spellplague brought him back to Toril. There, he found Mulhorand wiped away. Nezram believes the Spellplague was partially accomplished through the machinations of the Imaskari, and he views their recent acquisition of Mulhorand’s former lands as proof. He seeks to bring low the fledgling state of High Imaskar by any means necessary. Though few know it, Nezram has secretly subverted
Yanay, High Imaskar’s Lord Planner."

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  09:30:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

(and the people of Cimbar and Soorenar oppose him, having seen dragon kings in Abeir).


The dragon kingdoms of Abeir were mostly located in Laerakond (Returned Abeir). Shyr was the realm of Karshimis, who the dragons hated. Remember that dragons in Abeir started the same as the dragonborn: as slaves of the primordials. They gained power after a rebellion (the War of Fang and Talon), but somehow Karshimis returned from "death". So, the dragon kingdoms that weren't in Laerakond (and thus, remained on Abeir after the Spellplague) will obviously oppose Karshimis' Shyr.

What this means? That to those under the yoke of Karshimis and the Shyran genasi, or their descendants, Tchazzar is a f*king hero.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the Underchasm. Why do you think it doesn't rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter or that Sadrak's splinter didn't rise (though I'm not really sure of its actual height... probably the novel does describe it)?


Is what Lirdolin said here.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.



The WotC guys used a divination spell and saw that someday we will created the Candlekanon, and said: "those guys are doing a great work! We will leave this decision for them to handle". (?)

More seriously, thought, dunno. Gargauth isn't even dealt with in 4e.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Perhaps a more elemental question: how long did it take for all the events of the Spellplague to play out? I always imagined it happening over about 48 hours. However, does canon give any hint for how long it took to play out? A month? A year? A decade? How long was the land itself mutable?


I compiled most of those infos here:
The Spellplague
The Wailing Years



Bear in mind, I'm picturing more like this:

Cimbar and Soorenar transfer along with some surrounding territories

Cimbar and Soorenar do NOT bow to Karshimis. This territory becomes independent and gains some godly protection from the lesser gods of magic (see above where I gave some details on the guardians of this region.... just to note as well something I didn't there.... the eminence of Araunt is in Abeir, and they like these undead who are given enough free will to interact with and willingly protect their descendants from the tyrant of Shyr).

So, Cimbar and Soorenar are not oppressed. However, they probably see all these surrounding cultures that are in Abeir, and their children start questioning the stories of Tchazzar.... is Tchazzar just another dragon king trying to set himself up as a power to be worshipped?

Five generations later, Cimbar and Soorenar return to Toril. In the city of Erebos is Tchazzar (returned from the dead apparently again according to the SCAG). I'd imagine he is much weaker, but he remembers Cimbar as his old capital and he wants it back. The people of Cimbar don't want him.

On some of the other stuff.

Thanks for the link to Lirdolin's timeline. Very nice to pore through. Odd that it had SCAG references in 2014?

On Gargauth. He is in 4e. According to the SCAG he's offering pacts of the fiend. I haven't done much with him YET, but I was thinking something like following the spellplague he was shifted into Abeir, and he actually lost his godhood (which was somewhat tenuous as he was kind of like a devil being worshipped more than a god). I think while he was over there maybe he had to work against the machinations of some abyssal powers? I personally am growing on the idea of him being a warlock power more than a deity, and there will probably be many warlocks in the Tharch of Peleveran who take pacts with him.

Anyway, this is what the SCAG says
Gargauth is a mysterious infernal power who seeks godhood while trapped in the world within a magical shield.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  09:43:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: Here is a link to Mike Schley's B&W Faerûn Map, which I believe was done FOR the Sundering. I must have been looking at the wrong spot - NOW I see Lance Lake. {sigh}

I don't really recall the fine details of the Darkvision novel, but I got the idea that Pandorym - like most Elder Evils - had some sort of connection to the Far Realms (directly or indirectly, they all seem to have some sort of 'corruption' going on).

I'm not a big fan of The Far Realms (although you'd think how many times I use it in my lore I would be), but it is extremely helpful n explaining-away a lot of 'magical chaos'. If the Palace of the Purple Emperor (and the Celestial Nadir) is some sort of 'power node' (like Faersrezz and elemental nodes) for pure chaos, then it would make sense moving it - especially during a time of massive magical upheaval - would have a 'ripple effect' on the landscape, making it almost fluid-like. Some of how I picture demons and chaos working in D&D/fantasy comes from Fred Saberhagen, and his masterpiece, Empire of the East. He had an uber-'demon' named Zapranoth (sounds like a cousin of Pandorym), and here is a quote of how he desibed the demon's 'entry' into the story -
quote:
"The earth seemed to sink down beneath his feet, as stretched cloth would yield to the weight of a walking man."

or the Beast-Lord Draffut, 'impregnated' with elemental life -
quote:
It was as if he walked in snow or gravel, instead of solid stone; for at his touch, rock melted, not with heat but as if quickening briefly into crawling life, to quiet again when he had passed.


This is how I picture beings of unimaginable magnitude - and pure chaos - interacting with the merely mortal world. The PotPE may have had just such an effect on the landscape. And what if it also summoned its own terrain around itself, that would appear around it like someone pouring sand in a pool of water... except the 'water' is really the normal terrain of FR being displaced as the substance of pure chaos appears in the Realms.

Also, Sleyvas - I think you are maybe looking at the maps the wrong way - you seem to think a lot of land was 'added' randomly. That was just the shallow parts of the past water-bodies. The bay of chelimber didn't fill-in to create that marsh, it was drained. The water was rushing out of the SoFS into the Alamber and then on down into the Underchasm (how the entirety of the Underdark wasn't flooded in that century I'll never know). This is why (supposedly) all former 'coastal cities' wound-up 25-50 miles away from the new coastline (which was never actually reflected on any Heartlands map).

As for all the cities moving around - I manged to get at least a few to line-up together, which much finagling (resizing, rotating, AND stretching), but I think the basic problem stems from the 4e campaign map being 'representative', or 'abstract', rather then highly accurate. More like how old maps of the world were a couple of centuries ago - nothing was precisely placed like it is on modern maps. Rich Baker said as much back when he was still answering questions over on the WotC forums (and I greatly appreciated his honesty in that regard - I am sure he caught flack for his comments about how 'underwhelmed' he was with it).

Moving forward, some folks seemed to have taken the craptastic 4e map as 'a precise map of the Realms', which it was never meant to be. So cities fell-out in the wrong spots on better-made maps, because they were just being copied over from the primitive, inaccurate 4e campaign map. When those better maps came out, the 4e map should have been mostly disregarded, except as 'suggestion', and everything built off of canon text (and past maps superimposed) instead. Add to that that the bad 4e map was made from the the pretty yet very inaccurate 3e map, and the problems escalate.

I can probably do a fairly decent mock-up fairly quickly of how I think things should look (taking into account both RW physics AND 'magical chaos'). Islands where Lurien was intrigues me. I also like to still have a fairly close-yet-separate group of large islands for the arm of the Chultan peninsula. I don't think any map I do would even go that far west, though.




Yes, some of that land MAY have been uncovered by water shifting into the underdark. The truth is this is the supposition of sages who may not have even been to these areas previously, based off previous maps that have changed because the world is fluid-ish. Some of this land may have been transferred. Some may have slid. You yourself have said these same things. Here we have an easy way to gloss over these things, and possibly another easy way to explain their "mostly" repaired state back to the way they were roughly in 2e/3e.

So, for instance, the "land rising" on the Chessentan border to add to the swamp.... did it? Or did it just transfer? I mean, its not like they had some guy standing there that had taken pictures of the land under the water and compared it when it was at the top and was like "yep, same thing... it just rose".


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  10:21:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is also the fact that, after the Sundering 2.0, the world grow bigger.

quote:
From Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, p.18

[...]stories circulated of known destinations being farth er away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them.


So, maybe not all of the new lands are Abeiran in origin, but whole new patches of earth born when Ao "stuffed" the world.

While is certain that many parts of Abeir on Toril weren't transposed back to Abeir, we know Ao wanted to bring back balance for both worlds, not only Toril. So, I don't believe he transposed lots of Abeir to Toril, leaving Abeir without "parts" for the sake of it.

Is more likely he avoided it when possible (because it would take more time to patch up Abeir if he does that).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Jul 2017 10:22:58
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
758 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  10:24:03  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

There is also the fact that, after the Sundering 2.0, the world grow bigger.

quote:
From Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, p.18

[...]stories circulated of known destinations being farth er away from one another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them.


So, maybe not all of the new lands are Abeiran in origin, but whole new patches of earth born when Ao "stuffed" the world.

While is certain that many parts of Abeir on Toril weren't transposed back to Abeir, we know Ao wanted to bring back balance for both worlds, not only Toril. So, I don't believe I transposed lost of Abeir to Toril. Is more likely he avoided it when possible (because it would take more time to patch up Abeir if he does that).


The land may have gotten bigger, but probably only if you believe the land got smaller in 3e. The 3e maps were "squidged", and 4e followed that design - whereas in 5e the maps are back to how they were in the early days. "Stories circulating" of destinations being farther apart, I believe, is a nod to those who were using the 3e/4e maps as their baseline. Because they're the same distance apart they were in 1e/2e.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6930 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  13:23:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.



Yep, I can see you're starting to see where I'm taking some things in my own stuff. Gargauth has been gone the last century. What if Peleveran went to Abeir, which is my assumption. I'm actually having my red wizards and some Chessentans from Cimbar and Soorenar and Hlath (and maybe Laothkund) actually head south and build a society in Peleveran and then eventually spreading over a small portion of the eastern Shaar.

On Cimbar and Soorenar, I'm actually having them awaken an avatar of Velsharoon in Soorenar from his phylactery in the Tower Terrible. In return, he raises an army of undead to protect these two cities and the people that remain behind. These undead become kind of special. See below where I give a little history for the Aulkir of Evocation of the Tharch of Peleveran.

School of Evocation (Aulkir) Ythazz Buvarr, Aulkir of Evocation for the Tharch of Peleveran, demilich, resides in the city of Soorenar. Ythazz Buvarr was one of the red wizards who started the original Thayan rebellion against Mulhorand, and it is rumored that it was as a lich that he met the then mortal archmage Velsharoon and his fellow “red wizards” in Halruaa before leading them to Thay. He also helped found the original Zulkirate, and subsequently began studies to become an even more powerful demilich. It was only after achieving this goal that he was entrapped beneath the city of Bezantur, where he stayed until he was found by necromancer-priests of Velsharoon and magically transported to the city of Soorenar to protect the physical Phylactery of Mellifleur in Velsharoon's Tower Terrible and surrounding temple complex in Nightal of 1384 DR. The priests did not know where they transported the lich to, only that their god required them to find him and touch his skull to act as a conduit of his divine will.
When the city of Soorenar transferred to Abeir during the spellplague and Mimuay freed the avatar of Velsharoon from his phylactery, Ythazz Buvarr was also freed from his required vigil. He was however tasked by Velsharoon to “protect the cities of Soorenar and Cimbar until they are restored to Toril”. Velsharoon, using Mimuay as a conduit, then did cast a powerful ritual of necromancy that pulled thousands of Chessentans, dragonborn and genasi from their graves for hundreds of miles. Savras, using Zulkir Yaphyll as a conduit, then blessed these undead with the ability to see through magical disguises and other divinatory blessings. Leira, using Zulkir Mythrell'aa, also granted these undead the ability to cloak themselves in illusions to hide their undead nature and appear as their former selves. Finally, Auppenser, working through a sentient magic crystal possessed by Yaphyll, awakened a spark of their former consciousness, such that these beings could hold conversations, and it is whispered that some of these undead can even peer into the minds of others and perceive their thoughts. These undead are tasked with protecting the living of Cimbar and Soorenar. "Reborn Chessenta" has since swelled with populations of genasi and dragonborn (who are treated as second class citizens by the Mulans and Chessentans of these cities) seeking the freedoms of this land over the oppression of Shyr. Many of them treat the undead surrounding their territory with great reverence, for they are their own ancestors.



Oh, and darn it, School of Divination in the above. I keep forgetting that we already have defined 7 of the original 8 Zulkirs for the Zulkirate. For some reason I keep thinking evocation was open, but Dlueae Sharshyndree was the original Zulkir of evocation in the Zulkirate.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15672 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  13:30:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Guys, they only added that particular line to account for the change back to the 1e/2e geography from the 3e maps.

In fact, they should have just ignored it, and we could have said the 3e period had inaccurate maps. The fact that they pointed it out - in-game - causes more problems than it resolves.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yes, some of that land MAY have been uncovered by water shifting into the underdark. The truth is this is the supposition of sages who may not have even been to these areas previously, based off previous maps that have changed because the world is fluid-ish.
Exactly right.

Apparently, no-one had any real clue of what they were talking back (both RW and FR).

The problems stem from this - 3e changed the maps greatly, and 4e used that map to build upon, poorly. Now we have to backwards engineer the bad changes from an inaccurate map. Its actually better for us to just use the 3e/4e maps as suggestive references and draw NEW maps based on the changes, using the old 1e/2e (I use the Fonstad atlas maps as my 'base' point) maps.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: Here is a link to Mike Schley's B&W Faerûn Map, which I believe was done FOR the Sundering. I must have been looking at the wrong spot - NOW I see Lance Lake. {sigh}



Oh, this map is beautiful... I prefer it to the one from the FRCG.

It is a very beautiful fantasy map - very 'old school'.

Problem is, I can't get any of it to lineup with any map from any edition.
So as I said above, I am going to have to just use it as a 'suggestion' and build a more precise model using all available information.

Also, anyone know anything about what appears to be another HUGE chasm over by the Dragoncoast? I'm tempted to leave that... except Mike Schley did not include it on his 5e Heartlands map. So apparently one of the more interesting (and never discussed) items 4e added disappeared, with nary a word.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2017 13:59:28
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