Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Post-Sundering Old Empires... and the God-kings.
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 15

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
758 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  14:10:38  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you might mean "Land's Mouth", in the area of the Giant's Plain south of Elversult. Originally beneath this in the Underdark was the lake called the Giant's Chalice, which existed in a massive cavern, and by the map in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, was truly massive. The 4e Encounters adventure The Elder Elemental Eye describes the Land's Mouth as "an area of badlands where a large cavern collapsed decades ago". It seems reasonable to assume that sometime in the post-Spellplague period the cavern holding the Giant's Chalice collapsed, creating Land's Mouth.

How it filled in again? I can only assume in the same way the Underchasm and the Deep Maw got filled in - something to do with Grumbar as per The Sentinel, which I'm about three quarters of the way through. Or maybe the filling in was Ao business similar to the Great Rain: presumably Ao undoing the damage to Toril that had occurred as a result of the Era of Upheaval.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  14:29:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So you think they used Grumbar again? He seems to have been awful busy post-Sundering.

I suppose its apt - if anyone knows how to 'shovel it deep', its the guys at WotC.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
758 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  15:04:16  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So you think they used Grumbar again? He seems to have been awful busy post-Sundering.

I suppose its apt - if anyone knows how to 'shovel it deep', its the guys at WotC.


I dunno, I haven't finished the Sentinel so I don't even know how it was supposed to work for the Underchasm just yet...

I was assuming whatever happens has Grumbar help with Ao's restoration of Toril, but I really have no idea.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1085 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  20:02:40  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The land may have gotten bigger, but probably only if you believe the land got smaller in 3e. The 3e maps were "squidged", and 4e followed that design - whereas in 5e the maps are back to how they were in the early days. "Stories circulating" of destinations being farther apart, I believe, is a nod to those who were using the 3e/4e maps as their baseline. Because they're the same distance apart they were in 1e/2e.



quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In fact, they should have just ignored it, and we could have said the 3e period had inaccurate maps. The fact that they pointed it out - in-game - causes more problems than it resolves.


Yeah, this is the real problem. That they have said this in an in-universe way, even if they were just wink-winking some meta-joke for the old players. Worst, they say this in a section of the book named "A brief history" [of the Realms]. So, within the game context, since they acknowledged that in-universe as a fact (even if using the unreliable narrator), whereas other editions never say anything about it (one way or another), this means that this event—the "stuffing/growing" of the world—really happened in some way.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, anyone know anything about what appears to be another HUGE chasm over by the Dragoncoast? I'm tempted to leave that... except Mike Schley did not include it on his 5e Heartlands map. So apparently one of the more interesting (and never discussed) items 4e added disappeared, with nary a word.



Nope, they say nothing about it.

We should not use the SCAG map as reference, however, because that specific map is more useless than those maps from 3e and 4e. This map is supposed to be a map "inhabitants in the Realms should make and use rather than omniscient 'game' maps. So they help to transport you into the setting as it people see it and they're suitable for players, as they don't contain any secret information."(source).

For all we know, and seeing the geography of that map, maybe is an outdated map from the 1300s years, not something that reflects the state of current Realms-geography.

The only accurate map in 5e is that gigantic one from the Sword Coast area from Storm's King Thunder.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Jul 2017 20:04:54
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  22:38:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The land may have gotten bigger, but probably only if you believe the land got smaller in 3e. The 3e maps were "squidged", and 4e followed that design - whereas in 5e the maps are back to how they were in the early days. "Stories circulating" of destinations being farther apart, I believe, is a nod to those who were using the 3e/4e maps as their baseline. Because they're the same distance apart they were in 1e/2e.



quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In fact, they should have just ignored it, and we could have said the 3e period had inaccurate maps. The fact that they pointed it out - in-game - causes more problems than it resolves.


Yeah, this is the real problem. That they have said this in an in-universe way, even if they were just wink-winking some meta-joke for the old players. Worst, they say this in a section of the book named "A brief history" [of the Realms]. So, within the game context, since they acknowledged that in-universe as a fact (even if using the unreliable narrator), whereas other editions never say anything about it (one way or another), this means that this event—the "stuffing/growing" of the world—really happened in some way.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, anyone know anything about what appears to be another HUGE chasm over by the Dragoncoast? I'm tempted to leave that... except Mike Schley did not include it on his 5e Heartlands map. So apparently one of the more interesting (and never discussed) items 4e added disappeared, with nary a word.



Nope, they say nothing about it.

We should not use the SCAG map as reference, however, because that specific map is more useless than those maps from 3e and 4e. This map is supposed to be a map "inhabitants in the Realms should make and use rather than omniscient 'game' maps. So they help to transport you into the setting as it people see it and they're suitable for players, as they don't contain any secret information."(source).

For all we know, and seeing the geography of that map, maybe is an outdated map from the 1300s years, not something that reflects the state of current Realms-geography.

The only accurate map in 5e is that gigantic one from the Sword Coast area from Storm's King Thunder.
There are TWO versions of that. There was the one they were giving away for free - which was in itself pretty big (called 'SKTPreview_map), and the map that that that was only a small piece of us, which was of almost the entirety of 'The Heartlands', and went as far south as Tethyr, and as far east as Sembia and the Dragon Reach. The larger map had less detail (even though its the exact same map/art), and you had to buy it directly from Mike Schely's site.

On that one you can clearly see a LOT of the 4e changes - including the massive canyon (called 'Lands Mouth') are GONE. It actually looks like a very pretty, pristine map of the 1e/2e Realms.

This is why I am confused as to how to proceed. The massive continent map I am working on has pretty-much kept the 1e/2e outline, with the edition of a few new lakes, and thats it. That means after all that work, it isn't 'correct' for any edition.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  22:59:13  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is also a map that shows like 80-90% of the realms.

It goes from Moonshae Isles to most of the Old Empires region, the North, to the upper tip of Chult and the Shaar.

So it leaves out Mulgorm, Semphar, the rest of Chult, and the Shining South, Eveemeet.

But the rest is show, but only basic regions are named, Heartlands, Old Empires, Lands of Intrigue, and so on, no nations of cities are labeled. I think its meant to be an in character map. Wish it was more detail with major cities at least.
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1085 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  23:41:35  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, that is the map that I said is the useless one, because is a map done in the perspective of some in-universe cartographer, not from the point of view of current products of the Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On that one you can clearly see a LOT of the 4e changes - including the massive canyon (called 'Lands Mouth') are GONE. It actually looks like a very pretty, pristine map of the 1e/2e Realms.

This is why I am confused as to how to proceed. The massive continent map I am working on has pretty-much kept the 1e/2e outline, with the edition of a few new lakes, and thats it. That means after all that work, it isn't 'correct' for any edition.



To my understanding is that indeed most of the Realms returned to its form before the Time of Troubles, but not all. According to one podcast, Chris Perkins said that not all of the Abeiran lands on Toril were returned to Abeir (something that implies that not all the Torilian lands on Abeir were returned to Toril as well), and we also have specific official products stating that parts of Toril remained as they were in 4e (Airspur and Luirien in the SCAG, Tymanther in the SCAG and Erin's novels...).

So, we can say that almost a 80% (a little more, a little less) of current Toril is as it was in 1e, but the remaining rest is pretty much as it was in 4e.

That I see as a good thing. Most of the 4e Realms where a mess, but had a little useful and shinny gems.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Jul 2017 00:05:13
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7374 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  01:23:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So you think they used Grumbar again? He seems to have been awful busy post-Sundering.

I suppose its apt - if anyone knows how to 'shovel it deep', its the guys at WotC.



You know... where roughly were the geomancers down in Zakhara? Just wondering if there's this whole section in the hordelands/Zakhara/southern Faerun area that's got a lot more Grumbar worship than I pictured.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  05:14:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.
I've just run into a problem with this, as well.

As I've been fiddling with this particular region (Chult - Old Empires - Shining South), I realized I have to first finish at least this portion of my large continental map, because I need a base-point before I can change anything. To that end, I've been getting in the last few rivers, etc. Just now I was drawing that river that goes from Lake Lhespan to the Great Rift - the river that flows underground on the 3e maps (and one would assume continue forward on the 4e maps... if that region had survived).

Except it was never supposed to go underground. I'm working off the Fonstad Atlas map, which is based off Ed's originals (and I even have a few of those, so I can attest to the fact that she followed Ed's maps religiously), and you can clearly see that the river enters a tight gorge (crevasse?) and goes into the Great Rift. The layout was a bit different in 0e/1e/2e and the landrise was pretty damn close to the Rift, and the floor of the Great Rift looks to be at the same altitude as the land on the other side of the Landrise, so really, rather then a big 'hole', what you have there is a HUGE plateau with a chunk missing out of it. The bottom of the Great Rift doesn't appear to go below sea Level (which makes perfect sense, if you think about that river). If its been 'filled' in' for 5e, that puts it back to that state, and anything in there is ABOVE sea level, NOT in the Underdark.

So here's the problem - Pelevaran was created in 3e, and it only makes sense in 3e, with the 'inaccurate' maps. Unless the city sits astride the crevasse, and why would anyone build a city like that? I'm picturing The Aerie now from GoT - "I want to see the man fly, mommy!"

I suppose it works for waste-disposal - everything just falls out the bottom and eventually hits the river, to get washed away. Saves on plumbing, anyway.

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).

So the original temple should have stood at ground (sea) level, where the river exits the crevasse, and the dwarves could have just constructed everything else on top of it. Picture the dwarven portion looking like a wedge driven into the chasm, and the humans would have had a settlement on top of that, at the level of the upper Landrise (Eastern Shaar). It would have been useful also to get from the bottom to the top of the landrise, internally. All this would have possibly been done back when the Arkaiun first arrived in the Council Hills (a group of people with a 'fiendish' past, and this happens about a decade after the Orcgate wars, so their was a deific power-vacuum).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2017 22:15:56
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  10:55:24  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Anyway, this is what the SCAG says
Gargauth is a mysterious infernal power who seeks godhood while trapped in the world within a magical shield.


Ugh. It's as if they only took a cursory look at the lore, and failed to read it in-depth.

Gargauth was not trapped in the shield. It was always described as an unholy artifact that allowed Gargauth to communicate with the Knights of the Shield. Per Lords of Darkness, pg. 151: "The shield is an artifact sacred to the deity Gargauth..."

Although I am sure you are already aware of this Sleyvas, for anyone who isn't I am going to do a quick review of the deity.

According to the lore (pg. 23-25 of Powers and Pantheons), Gargauth obtained his initial divinity by killing a number of demon lords of great power, the first among them being Astaroth. He also actively hunted down an killed numerous devils whose essences were completely in the Realms. Upon killing them he would then steal their cults.

Gargauth's influence in the Realms was so pervasive he nearly became a lesser power. This frightened the deities of Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, and Tolona to such a degree that they combined their forces to kill his followers and undermine his plans. One of the reasons he is such a great threat to them is because unlike many evil deities who focus on trying to undermine priesthoods and faithful of benevolent faiths like that of Torm, he focuses on stealing faithful from other malevolent deities--like those deities previously mentioned.

In fact, he was actively researching for a way to re-establish the Godswall created by the Imaskari, but instead of blocking the Mulan deities, he wanted to block other malevolent deities from accessing Toril. That would have allowed him to steal their faithful and increase his own power.

It is unclear how or when Gargauth first appeared in the Realms, but when he initially did so he was trapped in "the depths of an endless pit" located somewhere below the city of Peleveria, the capital of Peleveran. He used Tuelhalva Drakewings to assist in liberating him from the pit, and in exchange he summoned forth an army of devils to serve the Archmage. Gargauth then betrayed the mage, which ultimately led to his death roughly a month later, the total collapse of Peleveran, and the first schism within the Cult of the Dragon.

Roughly 50 years after the fall of Peleveran, faithful of Gargauth--those who knowingly and willingly worship him--returned to the ruins of Peleveria. Around the pit that Gargauth was once trapped in they constructed a large subterranean fortress temple around the pit which they call "The Dark Pit of Maleficence." The pit itself is rumored to connect to the Nine Hells. The place was basically located in the Underdark, and housed over 100 priests and 250 lay worshipers, who had vast fungal farms and herds of deep rothe. It is because of all of this that temples elsewhere that are intentionally and knowingly dedicated to Gargauth also tend to be underground and are accessed by a deep pit of some sort. This is a religious call back to the Dark Pit of Maleficence. There were temples in such likeness under Baldur's Gate, Bezantur, Laothkund, Myratma, Sheirtalar, Teziir, Waterdeep, and dozens of other unnamed cities.

Of course, Gargauth is best known in canon for his manipulations of the Knights of the Shield, where he communes with the Shield Council through the Shield of the Hidden Lord. However, he was not--until the SCAG, apparently--trapped in the Shield.

All of this is in addition to the numerous cults, secretive fellowships, and wizard cabals he secretly sponsers throughout the Realms. Few people, even their leaders, know who they truly serve. This likely accounts for the bulk of Gargauth's actual worship.

I lay all of this out there because, although Gargauth never got much screen time or love in the Realms, he was actually a very influential power. He was almost as powerful and widespread as deities such as Malar and Lliira--once again, he was almost a lesser power in the Realms.

If he was given actual consideration in the canon, he would have easily ascended to become a lesser deity--maybe more--in the aftermath of the Time of Troubles, the death of Bane, and the chaos caused by the actions of Cyric. Gargauth would have been gobbling up followers from Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal left and right. Cyric and Kelemvor would likely have been nothing more than intermediate or lesser powers in this scenario. He likely also would have assisted Xvim in ascension to his father's place as Lord of Tyranny, setting himself up to be the "power behind" Xvim's throne.

It drives me crazy that he gets demoted simply to the thing he is most well known for which is the Knights of the Shield plotline.

====

All of this is relevant and important--especially due to the location of his largest temple--because it is located near the Old Empires and Tymanther specifically. Since we know Gilgeam is playing with demons, it might make sense that Gargauth would have an interest in events going down in this region. This does not even touch upon Asmodeus involvement down here--basically in Gargauth's backyard.

Out of curiosity, since we know that Asmodeus struck up a deal with Enlil for Nanna-Sin's divine essence, what happens if Enlil is really Gargauth in disguise? If Gilgeam is not the real Gilgeam, and potentially a powerful demon impersonating him--considering his Abyssal connections--then how do we know Enlil is the real Enlil?

Nanna-Sin, at least for a time, was really Selune. Of course, the Dragonborn had some sort of weird connection to Nanna-Sin since Selune--as Nanna-Sin--seemed to help them after their arrival on Toril. However, at some point Nanna-Sin stopped being Selune, and started being "Nanna-Sin"--perhaps some aspect of Selune that "worship" (in their own way) from the Dragonborn transformed into a weak deity in its own right that saw itself as Nanna-Sin--but as Nanna-Sin imagined by the Dragonborn, rather than the Untheric peoples. (If that makes sense, lol. Nanna-Sin #1: The original. Nanna-Sin #2: Selune. Nanna-Sin #3: Aspect of Selune that was transformed by the "worship" of the Dragonborn. #3 believes it is the original and is molded after the beliefs of the Dragonborn.)

If Gargauth is Enlil that would explain his sudden "return" and interest in the Realms again. It would also be in character for Gargauth to mascarade as another deity or power since that is his standard mode of operation. The Dragonborn, in large part due to their ignorance, are extremely vulnerable to such tactics by Gargauth. Being located nearby such a major center of his worship, and having powerful demons running around in the region--plus Asmodeus--it makes sense for Gargauth to have an interest or a stake here. It would also be awesome if Asmodeus, in a moment of vulnerability and desperation, accidentally and unknowingly entered into an agreement with Gargauth. An agreement that would come back to haunt him at a later time.

It could also be a means through which Asmodeus loses his godhood and Gargauth gains his worshipers in the Realms. That would reset the Nine Hells back to their original state. I mean it is a bit problematic to allow to similar deities to operate in the Faerunian Pantheon, both of which were/are powerful Arch-Devils and current/former leaders of one of the Nine Hells. It also upsets the balance in the Nine Hells between Asmodeus and the other arch-devils, basically pushing them to get godhood as well to counteract the moves being made by Asmodeus. The whole thing turns into a mess, and it is unnecessary as well, since Gargauth already exists and is/was way more established as a deity in the Realms than Asmodeus.


Anyway, the relevant events regarding Enlil's return are written up on the FR Wiki under the character entry for Kepeshkmolik Dumuzi. Link: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kepeshkmolik_Dumuzi

quote:
When he returned to Djerad Thymar, be began to have strange dreams about a bearded warrior who talked to him in a language Dumuzi couldn't understand. On Nightal 26, that warrior was revealed to be the god Enlil, who gave Dumuzi the power to destroy a maurezhi servant of the god-king Gilgeam, who was sent to Djerad Thymar to debilitate the city's defenses ahead of the return of Unther to Toril. When the magic of the Second Sundering was about to return Tymanther to Abeir, Dumuzi became the Chosen of Enlil, enabling the god to stop the process and allow most of Tymanther to remain on Toril.


So, "Enlil" contacted Dumuzi and assisted him in destroying a servant of Gilgeam. "Enlil" also stopped Tymanther from returning to Abeir--or at least most of it. That is quite a feat for a deity who abandoned Toril centuries prior, randomly returned, seemed to possess intimate knowledge of Unther's and Gilgeam's imminent return, and at that point had zero faithful in the Realms. Just sayin'. Enlil is probably someone else.
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  11:15:27  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).


I don't know about Gargauth being Abbathor or an aspect of him. However, Gargauth has definitely had interactions with dwarves. In his Powers and Pantheons write up on pg. 24:

quote:
Few beings in the Realms know of Gargauth's existence, but those who do dare not speak his name for fear he may come for a visit. However, Gargauth's name (or one of his aliases) appears in a few cautionary tales of overweening pride, insatiable greed, or overwhelming lust for power among every race of the Realms. For example, the dwarves tell a tale entitled "The Legacy of Astaroth."


Basically, this story is of a dwarven minstrel, implied to really be Gargauth, visiting a dwarven hall. Seemingly unknown to this dwarf--named Astaroth--any time he touched something made of metal it turned to gold. The greedy dwarves took advantage of this gift and basically got Astaroth to touch everything made of metal they could find--including their weapons, armor, and the veins of unmined iron. Then the day after Astaroth left the hall was attacked by orcs, and the dwarves couldn't defend it because all of their weapons and armor were made of gold. They all died and from this tale is derived the dwarven expression, "Gold makes one rich, but steel makes one richer."

So, I think it is likely that Gargauth has followers among the dwarves, and they have likely infiltrated cults devoted to Abbathor. That is generally how Gargauth and his cults operate--they infiltrate other cults and organizations and take them over from within.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7374 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  15:01:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.
I've just run into a problem with this, as well.

As I've been fiddling with this particular region (Chult - Old Empires - Shining South), I realized I have to first finish at least thi portion of my large continental map, because I need a base-point before I can change anything. To that end, I've been getting in the last few rivers, etc. Just now I was drawing that river that goes from Lake Lhespan to the Great Rift - the river that flows underground on the 3e maps (and one would assume continue forward on the 4e maps... if that region had survived).

Except it was never supposed to go underground. I'm working off the Fonstad Atlas map, which is based off Ed's originals (and I even have a few of those, so I can attest to the fact that she followed Ed's maps religiously), and you can clearly see that the river enters a tight gorge (crevasse?) and goes into the Great Rift. The layout was a bit different in 0e/1e/2e and the landrise was pretty damn close to the Rift, and the floor of the Great Rift looks to be at the same altitude as the land on the other side of the Landrise, so really, rather then a big 'hole', what you have there is a HUGE plateau with a chunk missing out of it. The bottom of the Great Rift doesn't appear to go below sea Level (which makes perfect sense, if you think about that river). If its been 'filled' in' for 5e, that puts it back to that state, and anything in there is ABOVE sea level, NOT in the Underdark.

So here's the problem - Pelevaran was created in 3e, and it only makes sense in 3e, with the 'inaccurate' maps. Unless the city sits astride the crevasse, and why would anyone build a city like that? I'm picturing The Aerie now from GoT - "I want to see the man fly, mommy!"

I suppose it works for waste-disposal - everything just falls out the bottom and eventually hits the river, to get washed away. Saves on plumbing, anyway.

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).

So the original temple should have stood at ground (sea) level, where the river exits the crevasse, and the dwarves could have just constructed everything else on top of it. Picture the dwarven portion looking like a wedge driven into the chasm, and the humans would have had a settlement on top of that, at the level of the upper Landrise (Eastern Shaar). It would have been useful also to get from the bottom to the top of the landrise, internally. All this would have possibly been done back when the Arkaiun first arrived in the Council Hills (a group of people with a 'fiendish' past, and this happens about a decade after the Orcgate wars, so their was a deific power-vacuum).



Can't talk a lot on these right now. Need to get to work, but I want to talk with you about this Markustay. I'm picturing Peleveran as a city built into the cliffs of the landrise like the Indian Pueblos. Given that the area doesn't have a lot of wood nearby (it is Savannah), this could make sense. I imagine there would be some logging of the Chondalwood, but that does have issues with the elves. Anyway, as a Cliffside city, this makes it highly defensible. However, I want to know the part about the river better. In my maps I was also planning to build small cities at the top and bottom of the land rise as well and link these to Peleveran.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7374 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  15:04:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Anyway, this is what the SCAG says
Gargauth is a mysterious infernal power who seeks godhood while trapped in the world within a magical shield.


Ugh. It's as if they only took a cursory look at the lore, and failed to read it in-depth.

Gargauth was not trapped in the shield. It was always described as an unholy artifact that allowed Gargauth to communicate with the Knights of the Shield. Per Lords of Darkness, pg. 151: "The shield is an artifact sacred to the deity Gargauth..."

Although I am sure you are already aware of this Sleyvas, for anyone who isn't I am going to do a quick review of the deity.

According to the lore (pg. 23-25 of Powers and Pantheons), Gargauth obtained his initial divinity by killing a number of demon lords of great power, the first among them being Astaroth. He also actively hunted down an killed numerous devils whose essences were completely in the Realms. Upon killing them he would then steal their cults.

Gargauth's influence in the Realms was so pervasive he nearly became a lesser power. This frightened the deities of Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, and Tolona to such a degree that they combined their forces to kill his followers and undermine his plans. One of the reasons he is such a great threat to them is because unlike many evil deities who focus on trying to undermine priesthoods and faithful of benevolent faiths like that of Torm, he focuses on stealing faithful from other malevolent deities--like those deities previously mentioned.

In fact, he was actively researching for a way to re-establish the Godswall created by the Imaskari, but instead of blocking the Mulan deities, he wanted to block other malevolent deities from accessing Toril. That would have allowed him to steal their faithful and increase his own power.

It is unclear how or when Gargauth first appeared in the Realms, but when he initially did so he was trapped in "the depths of an endless pit" located somewhere below the city of Peleveria, the capital of Peleveran. He used Tuelhalva Drakewings to assist in liberating him from the pit, and in exchange he summoned forth an army of devils to serve the Archmage. Gargauth then betrayed the mage, which ultimately led to his death roughly a month later, the total collapse of Peleveran, and the first schism within the Cult of the Dragon.

Roughly 50 years after the fall of Peleveran, faithful of Gargauth--those who knowingly and willingly worship him--returned to the ruins of Peleveria. Around the pit that Gargauth was once trapped in they constructed a large subterranean fortress temple around the pit which they call "The Dark Pit of Maleficence." The pit itself is rumored to connect to the Nine Hells. The place was basically located in the Underdark, and housed over 100 priests and 250 lay worshipers, who had vast fungal farms and herds of deep rothe. It is because of all of this that temples elsewhere that are intentionally and knowingly dedicated to Gargauth also tend to be underground and are accessed by a deep pit of some sort. This is a religious call back to the Dark Pit of Maleficence. There were temples in such likeness under Baldur's Gate, Bezantur, Laothkund, Myratma, Sheirtalar, Teziir, Waterdeep, and dozens of other unnamed cities.

Of course, Gargauth is best known in canon for his manipulations of the Knights of the Shield, where he communes with the Shield Council through the Shield of the Hidden Lord. However, he was not--until the SCAG, apparently--trapped in the Shield.

All of this is in addition to the numerous cults, secretive fellowships, and wizard cabals he secretly sponsers throughout the Realms. Few people, even their leaders, know who they truly serve. This likely accounts for the bulk of Gargauth's actual worship.

I lay all of this out there because, although Gargauth never got much screen time or love in the Realms, he was actually a very influential power. He was almost as powerful and widespread as deities such as Malar and Lliira--once again, he was almost a lesser power in the Realms.

If he was given actual consideration in the canon, he would have easily ascended to become a lesser deity--maybe more--in the aftermath of the Time of Troubles, the death of Bane, and the chaos caused by the actions of Cyric. Gargauth would have been gobbling up followers from Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal left and right. Cyric and Kelemvor would likely have been nothing more than intermediate or lesser powers in this scenario. He likely also would have assisted Xvim in ascension to his father's place as Lord of Tyranny, setting himself up to be the "power behind" Xvim's throne.

It drives me crazy that he gets demoted simply to the thing he is most well known for which is the Knights of the Shield plotline.

====

All of this is relevant and important--especially due to the location of his largest temple--because it is located near the Old Empires and Tymanther specifically. Since we know Gilgeam is playing with demons, it might make sense that Gargauth would have an interest in events going down in this region. This does not even touch upon Asmodeus involvement down here--basically in Gargauth's backyard.

Out of curiosity, since we know that Asmodeus struck up a deal with Enlil for Nanna-Sin's divine essence, what happens if Enlil is really Gargauth in disguise? If Gilgeam is not the real Gilgeam, and potentially a powerful demon impersonating him--considering his Abyssal connections--then how do we know Enlil is the real Enlil?

Nanna-Sin, at least for a time, was really Selune. Of course, the Dragonborn had some sort of weird connection to Nanna-Sin since Selune--as Nanna-Sin--seemed to help them after their arrival on Toril. However, at some point Nanna-Sin stopped being Selune, and started being "Nanna-Sin"--perhaps some aspect of Selune that "worship" (in their own way) from the Dragonborn transformed into a weak deity in its own right that saw itself as Nanna-Sin--but as Nanna-Sin imagined by the Dragonborn, rather than the Untheric peoples. (If that makes sense, lol. Nanna-Sin #1: The original. Nanna-Sin #2: Selune. Nanna-Sin #3: Aspect of Selune that was transformed by the "worship" of the Dragonborn. #3 believes it is the original and is molded after the beliefs of the Dragonborn.)

If Gargauth is Enlil that would explain his sudden "return" and interest in the Realms again. It would also be in character for Gargauth to mascarade as another deity or power since that is his standard mode of operation. The Dragonborn, in large part due to their ignorance, are extremely vulnerable to such tactics by Gargauth. Being located nearby such a major center of his worship, and having powerful demons running around in the region--plus Asmodeus--it makes sense for Gargauth to have an interest or a stake here. It would also be awesome if Asmodeus, in a moment of vulnerability and desperation, accidentally and unknowingly entered into an agreement with Gargauth. An agreement that would come back to haunt him at a later time.

It could also be a means through which Asmodeus loses his godhood and Gargauth gains his worshipers in the Realms. That would reset the Nine Hells back to their original state. I mean it is a bit problematic to allow to similar deities to operate in the Faerunian Pantheon, both of which were/are powerful Arch-Devils and current/former leaders of one of the Nine Hells. It also upsets the balance in the Nine Hells between Asmodeus and the other arch-devils, basically pushing them to get godhood as well to counteract the moves being made by Asmodeus. The whole thing turns into a mess, and it is unnecessary as well, since Gargauth already exists and is/was way more established as a deity in the Realms than Asmodeus.


Anyway, the relevant events regarding Enlil's return are written up on the FR Wiki under the character entry for Kepeshkmolik Dumuzi. Link: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kepeshkmolik_Dumuzi

quote:
When he returned to Djerad Thymar, be began to have strange dreams about a bearded warrior who talked to him in a language Dumuzi couldn't understand. On Nightal 26, that warrior was revealed to be the god Enlil, who gave Dumuzi the power to destroy a maurezhi servant of the god-king Gilgeam, who was sent to Djerad Thymar to debilitate the city's defenses ahead of the return of Unther to Toril. When the magic of the Second Sundering was about to return Tymanther to Abeir, Dumuzi became the Chosen of Enlil, enabling the god to stop the process and allow most of Tymanther to remain on Toril.


So, "Enlil" contacted Dumuzi and assisted him in destroying a servant of Gilgeam. "Enlil" also stopped Tymanther from returning to Abeir--or at least most of it. That is quite a feat for a deity who abandoned Toril centuries prior, randomly returned, seemed to possess intimate knowledge of Unther's and Gilgeam's imminent return, and at that point had zero faithful in the Realms. Just sayin'. Enlil is probably someone else.



While I knew this lore... I didn't KNOW it. Its good a lot of times to reread stuff, as it makes you rethink what you had interpreted. Thank you.

So, at least in Canon now, Gargauth is offering up warlock pacts. What if this is because he's entrapped in the Pit of Maleficence again and maybe it has a connection to Shattered Night/the wells of darkness. Maybe he can't sponsor priests right now, but he can empower warlocks. This could possibly work with my idea of Jorgmacdon getting released... not sure how yet... but we could come up with something. Gargauth would still be basically the same subversive role, just using different means now.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Jul 2017 15:10:16
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1085 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  16:26:13  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Out of curiosity, since we know that Asmodeus struck up a deal with Enlil for Nanna-Sin's divine essence, what happens if Enlil is really Gargauth in disguise? If Gilgeam is not the real Gilgeam, and potentially a powerful demon impersonating him--considering his Abyssal connections--then how do we know Enlil is the real Enlil?



Because if Enlil was Gargauth, Asmodeus wouldn't need to strike a bargain with him. If Gargauth is a devil, Asmodeus just would have outright controlled it—Asmodeus was a greater god in 4e (and is still a greater god in 5e, as per the SCAG), even if using Azuth's divine essence to achieve that. This is the reason the other Lords of Hell are powerless before him now: they aren't an active threat to Asmodeus anymore. If a Lord of Hell is powerless before Asmodeus, Galgauth is like a flea.

Enlil had to make this bargain with Asmodeus because he wanted Nanna-Sin to revive, but he was powerless to do it on his own: he was technically a lower rank lesser god at the moment (his only worshipers at the moment being Dumuzi and a handful of dragonborn), and he has expended whatever divine power he had accumulated thanks to the mulani worshipers he still had in the area (there is a "Cult of the Old Gods" mentioned in the "Old Empires" sourcebook, so he has a little of accumulated power in the Realms) stopping the Sundering-stuff.

Asmodeus, on the other hand, was a full-fledged god and had no problems reviving Nanna-Sin.

The plot twist there is that Azuth had regained consciousness and was battling for control over Asmodeus' body—so, both deities were becoming mad (yet Asmodeus retained enough sanity to maintain the other Lords of the Hells in check). Asmodeus wanted is own divine spark to release Azuth from his body, yet maintaining his divine status as a greater god untouched (not just becoming a lesser power maintained by his faithful), as this was crucial to maintain order in the Nine Hells now that the demons had returned to the Astral Plane and were re-starting the Blood War. That's why he asked for Nanna-Sin's divine spark.

He would have stolen it if necessary, but that would have been more troublesome due to Azuth's interference, the fact that Gilgeam also wanted that divine spark for the same reasons (he had attempted to stole it before, but his agents failed), and other Sundering related-stuffs. Thus, the deal with Enlil was a win/win for him.

The whole deal was so convoluted that the other Lords of Hells feared for their positions. That's the reason why Glasya (Asmodeus' daughter, and the newest Lord of the Six—she has only 100 years in the position) send her devils to help Tymanther just to allow Asmodeus remain a god, and thus, she secure her position as one of the Lords of the Nine.

The deal, in fact, wasn't even Asmodeus' or Enlil's idea, but the idea of their Chosen, Farideh and Dumuzi, plus Ilstan Nyarill (Azuth's Chosen), who wanted to save Azuth, and to stop the chaos of a Nine Hells losing the Blood War scenario—this would mean demons using the Material Plane as a battleground (we have to remember that The Devil You Know was loosely-connected to the Rage of Demons metaplot). And also, to thwart Gilgeam's potential apotheosis as well.

That's why I said that the deal between Enlil and Asmodeus was more complicated than just reviving Nanna-Sin. Enlil just allowed Asmodeus to take Nanna-Sin's spark in exchange for reviving him, instead of risking that Asmodeus just stole it (as he became aware of it after Farideh told him about the plan). And Dumuzi had to convince Enlil of this, because Enlil didn't wanted to doing it at first.

Also, because Enlil is actually a good god in the novels—even if somewhat powerless—and has access to Zigguraxus (the old outer plane of the Mulhorandi pantheon), while Gilgeam cannot access that place (at least, not initially). Something that means he is really the Mulhorandi Enlil, and not some imposter.

As for why he returned? We know Ao called back/revived nearly all disappeared/dead gods during the Sundering (as per Ed's words). That's the same reason the Mulhorandi pantheon came back. And this time as gods, not just manifestations.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Nanna-Sin, at least for a time, was really Selune. Of course, the Dragonborn had some sort of weird connection to Nanna-Sin since Selune--as Nanna-Sin--seemed to help them after their arrival on Toril. However, at some point Nanna-Sin stopped being Selune, and started being "Nanna-Sin"--perhaps some aspect of Selune that "worship" (in their own way) from the Dragonborn transformed into a weak deity in its own right that saw itself as Nanna-Sin--but as Nanna-Sin imagined by the Dragonborn, rather than the Untheric peoples. (If that makes sense, lol. Nanna-Sin #1: The original. Nanna-Sin #2: Selune. Nanna-Sin #3: Aspect of Selune that was transformed by the "worship" of the Dragonborn. #3 believes it is the original and is molded after the beliefs of the Dragonborn.)


Nanna-Sin was dead. This is confirmed in both Ashes of the Tyrant and the Devil You Know. He was revived in the battle, yeah, but that is the key word: revived.

The dragonborn just enshrined his divine mummy (preserved due to Nanna-Sin's divine spark) in their catacombs because they (re)built Djerad Thymar using his tomb as the foundations (the original Tymanchebaran djerad fell on top of it during the Spellplague, in fact). Dunno why Selūne sent Thymara to the tomb, but she always acted as Selūne, never impersonating Nanna-Sin.

As for the religion stuff, the only active religion in Djerad Thymar before Enlil's was the Platinum Cadre (Bahamut's, who we know is in fact Marduk—or more accurately, Marduk was an aspect of Bahamut). While dragonborn were grateful with Selūne, they never worshiped her (at least, not as a culture; maybe some individuals did it, but was that, a few individuals).

EDIT: Grammar... my english teacher would kill me if she learn how many edits took me for this to be readable, xDDD

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Jul 2017 17:17:59
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7374 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  16:56:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to the subterranean temple of Gargauth that was located deep beneath the ruins of the capital city of Pelevarn--which was built into the side of the Landrise? This was Gargauth's largest temple.
I've just run into a problem with this, as well.

As I've been fiddling with this particular region (Chult - Old Empires - Shining South), I realized I have to first finish at least thi portion of my large continental map, because I need a base-point before I can change anything. To that end, I've been getting in the last few rivers, etc. Just now I was drawing that river that goes from Lake Lhespan to the Great Rift - the river that flows underground on the 3e maps (and one would assume continue forward on the 4e maps... if that region had survived).

Except it was never supposed to go underground. I'm working off the Fonstad Atlas map, which is based off Ed's originals (and I even have a few of those, so I can attest to the fact that she followed Ed's maps religiously), and you can clearly see that the river enters a tight gorge (crevasse?) and goes into the Great Rift. The layout was a bit different in 0e/1e/2e and the landrise was pretty damn close to the Rift, and the floor of the Great Rift looks to be at the same altitude as the land on the other side of the Landrise, so really, rather then a big 'hole', what you have there is a HUGE plateau with a chunk missing out of it. The bottom of the Great Rift doesn't appear to go below sea Level (which makes perfect sense, if you think about that river). If its been 'filled' in' for 5e, that puts it back to that state, and anything in there is ABOVE sea level, NOT in the Underdark.

So here's the problem - Pelevaran was created in 3e, and it only makes sense in 3e, with the 'inaccurate' maps. Unless the city sits astride the crevasse, and why would anyone build a city like that? I'm picturing The Aerie now from GoT - "I want to see the man fly, mommy!"

I suppose it works for waste-disposal - everything just falls out the bottom and eventually hits the river, to get washed away. Saves on plumbing, anyway.

On the other hand, it is a temple to Gargauth, and he sounds like he could possibly be an aspect of Abbathor, the dwarven god of greed. If the temple dates from the early part of the dwarven empire (I have some lore to go with all that, which I created because of the Elsir {Channath} Vale material), when they controlled a large portion of the surface around The Great rift. Such a god would appeal to humans, and I picture Pelevaran being like another 'Grym' (Pelevargrym?) - like Gauntlgrym - a city built for humans and dwarves to share (humans above, dwarves below), and it would make some sense for dwarves to build a city inside a crevasse - a passage that could have been used to invade their realm in the Great Rift. Basically, they 'plugged a hole', and dwarves being the efficient bastiches they are, they had it serve double (triple?)-duty, as a fortress and trading post... on top of the temple, which may have been re-dedicated to Gargauth and actually have been a far more ancient Ilythiir temple to someone like Ghaunadaur (or maybe a forgotten drow deity of greed and deception).

So the original temple should have stood at ground (sea) level, where the river exits the crevasse, and the dwarves could have just constructed everything else on top of it. Picture the dwarven portion looking like a wedge driven into the chasm, and the humans would have had a settlement on top of that, at the level of the upper Landrise (Eastern Shaar). It would have been useful also to get from the bottom to the top of the landrise, internally. All this would have possibly been done back when the Arkaiun first arrived in the Council Hills (a group of people with a 'fiendish' past, and this happens about a decade after the Orcgate wars, so their was a deific power-vacuum).



Can't talk a lot on these right now. Need to get to work, but I want to talk with you about this Markustay.

First, Peleveran wasn't invited in 3e. It was invented in 2e in Powers and Pantheons by Eric Boyd in the section on Gargauth. In it it said

"Peleveran was located in the triangle formed between present-day Torsch and Harcastle and the Great Rift. Its capital, Peleveria, was built into the side of the Landrise. Its capital, Peleveria, was built into the side of the Landrise. The kingdom was destroyed in the first great schism of the Cult of the Dragon. The archmage Tuelhalva Drakewings broke from the Cult, possibly at Gargauth's suggestion, and seized the throne in 1018 DR, the Year of the Dracorage. His rule lasted barely a month before 21 mages of the Cult called down a flight of dracoliches and dragons on the beleaguered land. Only a handful of ruins survive of that long-forgotten kingdom. What was once a tree-cloaked fertile land is now barren, open, stony country."

"The Dark Pit of Maleficence was built by Gargauth's clergy more than 50 years after the destruction of Peleveran on the supposed site of Gargauth's first appearance in the Realms. The subterannean fortress is accessed via a large cavern tunnel into the Landrise that served Pelevaria as a huge granary."

I'm picturing Peleveran as a city built into the cliffs of the landrise like the Indian Pueblos kind of. As a Cliffside city, this makes it highly defensible. I imagine also that there was a trail that led from the top of the Landrise to the bottom, and so Pelevaria became a waypoint for people to traverse from one side of the Shaar to the other. However, I want to know the part about the river better. In my maps I was also planning to build small cities at the top and bottom of the land rise as well and link these to Peleveran (which is what I'm calling the city despite it earlier being named Peleveria.... the Thayans didn't know better, plus they rebuilt it).


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1085 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  17:37:34  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also want to talk about maps. Because its obvious that the first project (or second one) of the Candlekanon will deal with the Old Empires.

I'm re-drawing my map (is a difficult task, because I'm not as talented as Markustay and BRJ...), and thanks to BRJ's map, Chessenta and Akanūl look like real countries. I will be re-drawing Tymanther today (though is almost finished). So, this leads me to Unther and Mulhorand. How we will want to deal with the terrain? 1e/2e's shape or 4e's?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  20:21:41  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mostly 1e/2e as the Sundering and the Great Rain would have healed the land what was damaged during Sundering, but maybe keep a couple of major land marks from 4e as a memoneto of the time, like the Glass Meso.
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1085 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  20:49:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I have mostly of the terrain done. Though I have to rework in the mountains (I want to improve them). I also want to expand the map a little bit to include all of Murghōm.

I've left Akanūl as it was in 4e, because of sleyvas said (Akanūl was an improvement for the region). Tymanther, likewise, will remain as it was in 4e, as, as discussed before, official products hint that Tymanther didn't changed at all.

My question is more about Unther and Mulhorand. While is true that the Sundering did brought the level of the Sea to its 1e/2e levels, we don't want happened to the terrain. Unlike the Underschasm, those regions weren't rebuilt by Grumbar...

I have this stuff:
Model 1 (landforms more like they were in 1e/2e)
Model 2 (landforms more like they were in 4e, with the damaged terrain and such)

I also wonder what to do with Laothkund and the maw of the God Swallower.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Jul 2017 21:19:43
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  21:37:37  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

While I knew this lore... I didn't KNOW it. Its good a lot of times to reread stuff, as it makes you rethink what you had interpreted. Thank you.


Yeah, Gargauth is such an underrated and under used deity. It was one of the reasons it frustrated me so much to see Asmodeus become a deity (and a greater deity at that) in the Realms. Well, that as well as the fact that the portfolio held by Asmodeus made no sense. The portfolio of "sin"? What is that in the context of the Realms? What is "sinful" varies depending on the cult and the deity in question. It's like they basically just wanted a generic evil deity who also happened to be an arch-devil. It's hard for me to imagine that there is anything specific to the Realms plot-wise that either Gargauth or Bane could not have also done. Stuff in the Hells themselves? Yeah, you might need an Arch-Devil for that, but even then you do not necessarily need Asmodeus himself.

If there is one deity that really got the shaft it is probably Gargauth. He should at least be an intermediate power by 5th edition, lol. I mean, just in the aftermath of the Time of Troubles his cult and influence should have grown significantly.

Now, we have to figure out how and why he got trapped in the shield.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Because if Enlil was Gargauth, Asmodeus wouldn't need to strike a bargain with him. If Gargauth is a devil, Asmodeus just would have outright controlled it—Asmodeus was a greater god in 4e (and is still a greater god in 5e, as per the SCAG), even if using Azuth's divine essence to achieve that. This is the reason the other Lords of Hell are powerless before him now: they aren't an active threat to Asmodeus anymore. If a Lord of Hell is powerless before Asmodeus, Galgauth is like a flea.


I wouldn't say that Gargauth is like a flea next to Asmodeus, he is a deity as well--not simply a devil. Then again, I am not sure if the other Lords of the Nine are also deities--if not, then they are certainly working on it. It is really hard for me to imagine a situation where the position Asmodeus holds in the Nine is sustainable. I mean he is not only actively dominating the other Lords, but he is also challenging the deities as well. It is hard for me to imagine, for example, Bane tolerating Asmodeus having that much influence in the Realms. So, not only would he face hostile action from the evil deities attempting to thwart his influence (who would be willing to work with the other Lords of the Nine against him), but he would also face active opposition from all the good-aligned faiths (such as the Triad). I mean, being so active in the Realms is inviting multiple cults to begin active crusades against his faith.

The planes always strive toward keeping a precarious balance. When one individual or group gains too much power, they usually do not last that long. The greater and more powerful Asmodeus becomes the more and more he invites such a backlash.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

That's why I said that the deal between Enlil and Asmodeus was more complicated than just reviving Nanna-Sin.


Yeah, based on what you have written it seems very unlikely to be Gargauth. However, I still think it is likely another power impersonating Enlil. It just seems odd that he would randomly return after all of this time, and then turn against his own people to side with the Dragonborn. Side against Gilgeam? Yes, especially since it is not the real Gilgeam and is an imposter. However, if the real Enlil were to return, he likely would have reached out to someone like Namshita. He would not have been hostile to the Dragonborn, but would have supported the Mulan conquest of their lands and likely would have supported them as being honored citizens of the reborn Unther empire.

It seems out of character for him. We have to keep in mind that these are deities that literally sent physical manifestations to Toril in order to aid their faithful. They are not just human deities in the generic sense, they are deities very strongly associated with a human ethnic group. It is the equivalent of Corellon turning himself into a Dragonborn and working against the Elves because too many have fallen under Lolth's sway. It would be counter to who Corellon is as a character.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Also, because Enlil is actually a good god in the novels—even if somewhat powerless—and has access to Zigguraxus (the old outer plane of the Mulhorandi pantheon), while Gilgeam cannot access that place (at least, not initially). Something that means he is really the Mulhorandi Enlil, and not some imposter.


Minor correction: Zigguraxus is the home plane for the Untheric Pantheon. Heliopolis is the home plane for the Mulhorandi Pantheon. ...unless they are sharing the same divine plane in 5E?

There is also some weird lore issues there. There is the issues caused by the changes in the cosmology:

Powers and Pantheons, pg. 96:
quote:
The fallen manifestations and their associated incarnations vanished from the Realms, but left part of the power of their manifestations to be absorbed by the deities left behind. (Their deaths allowed them to bypass the ancient barrier and their manifestations were reabsorbed by their divine essences in the Outer Planes.)


Prior to 3E all the worlds were connected, and thus the Enlil or Nanna-Sin on Toril was the Enlil and Nanna-Sin everywhere else in the cosmology. The manifestations were basically a hybrid of avatars and aspects--physical copies of the deity that were cut off from its core essence. Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and all the rest existed on Zigguraxus in the planes, but their manifestations were seperated from that core essence.

Anyway, all of this means is that Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and all the rest--including Gilgeam were already chilling out in Zigguraxus. They just did not have a presence in the Realms.

This is one of the reasons I find Enlil's return so odd. Unlike someone like Nanna-Sin, he actually left Toril willingly--he abandoned it and gave leadership to Gilgeam. I cannot think of a reason why he would want to return unless to reclaim the Untheric people as his own and overthrow his son. It is hard for me to understand or think how the Dragonborn would factor into this equation.

Maybe it is explored or explained better, and you can fill me in...

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Nanna-Sin was dead. This is confirmed in both Ashes of the Tyrant and the Devil You Know. He was revived in the battle, yeah, but that is the key word: revived.


Yeah, Nanna-Sin is definitely dead. However, he had been dead for 2,456 years before the Dragonborn even showed up.

Most people believe that Nanna-Sin was being used as an alias of Selūne in the region.

Powers of Faerūn, pg. 28
quote:
Untheric Crusade: For three years, the armies of Mulhorand have slowly pushed into Unther, claiming more and more of their once-powerful rival's territory for Pharaoh Horustep III. By the end of the Year of Rogue Dragons (1373 DR), Mulhorand had conquered all of Unther except the city of Messemprar, and its armies threatened to lay siege to that city once the rainy season (winter) had passed despite frenzied attacks by small flights of dragons from the Riders to the Sky mountains. Early in the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR), two events changed the thrust of this war. First, the Banite templars of the Black Lord’s Altar in Mourktar marched forth to the defense of Messemprar, reinforcing the besieged defenders of that city. Early successes by the Banites were attributed to a massive influx of magical weaponry from Thay sold to the church of Bane at cut-rate prices. Second, the Shussel-folk who disappeared from their city in the mysterious event known as the Vanishing have reappeared in Shussel as the Legion of Nanna-Sin. According to reports, the Shussel-folk were taken to the "lost" plane of Zigguraxus by Nanna-Sin (who might be an aspect of Selūne), transformed into aasimar, and trained as elite warriors. Now the Legion has returned, opening a new front against the rear flank of Mulhorand's forward armies.


Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 3rd Edition, pg. 188.
quote:
Often referring to herself as the "daughter of the moon," Ningal is a mysterious Untherite woman currently organizing a rebellion against the invaders from Mulhorand. She supplies her followers with magic weapons and shields (each bearing the symbol of Selūne) to use against the Mulhorandi, warding them with abjuration magic and encouraging a hit-and-run war of sabotage.

Ningal speaks little of her origin, but her genasi nature is evident in her constantly windblown hair and skin that is cool to the touch even on the hottest day. Her followers genuinely love their leader, for she lends them strength against their enemy and heals their wounds when they have been injured.

Ningal's most faithful follower is Jeardra of Aglarond (NG moon elf female Clr9 of Selūne), who has been with her for over a year.

Jeardra believes that Ningal has been favored with a high destiny in the Service of Selūne and may eventually become the Chosen of Selūne. Ningal herself makes no claim, focusing instead on the liberation of her people through her power and her faith in the Moonmaiden.

The genasi is considered a rabble-rouser and dangerous rebel by the Mulhorandi government, which has offered a bounty of ten thousand gold pieces for her capture. So far she has evaded her pursuers through careful selection of safe houses and the use of her helm of teleportation. The Northern Wizards of Messemprar would like to gain her as an ally, but Ningal remains wary, fearing Mulhorandi spies and assassins.


So, Selūne was active in the region post-Time of Troubles. It was just a plotline that was never brought to completion. This is how I ended up suggesting that Nanna-Sin was not the real Nanna-Sin, but rather an aspect of Selūne that was transformed by Dragonborn "worship." This assumption relies on the Powers of Faerūn entry.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7374 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  22:00:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I agree with the Asmodeus statement for him showing up. I was like "we already had Gargauth... he filled that role...". That being said, Gargauth makes a good warlock patron and it makes sense. Personally though, I will take the statement of "he's trapped in the shield" to mean "we heard him talking through a shield in a dream and saying he's trapped". In truth, I want him trapped back in the Pit in Peleveran, but able to offer "pacts" to warlocks from his prison, and hoping that he can hook one powerful enough to come free him.

On that front, I'd maybe also like Jorgmacdon (the first Zulkir of Conjuration from way back when that I want to bring back) pissed at Gargauth, and maybe he's put all kinds of death traps around the pit to prevent him getting freed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  22:05:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking about making the Maw (and maybe the Lands Mouth) just much smaller (and maybe have lrore saying they are still 'shrinking', but much more slowly then they were at first).

I've also been working on the maps like crazy, trying different approahces, and I have at least three 'flase starts'. Thats why I am finishing that part of my continental map first - I need something on that scale to get more of a 'feel' for the changes. I've always had this weird thing about doing much larger regions then my maps were actually for, in order to get everything 'just right' (so in most cases, what I show you guys is just the center part of a much larger map). I think in the cases of these 5e hybrid maps, thats exactly the approach we are going to need.

For example, the Shaar used to (and once again, as of 5e) have MUCH MORE terrain to it. The 4e maps show that most of it is just a giant hole, but even if we were to keep that hole approximately the same size, it still wouldn't take up nearly as much room as it did on the 3e/4e terrain layout. That would give us a very different - and perhaps very cool - new look. That is why I am going for a 'hybrid' version right now, probably as part of the CandleKanon project (which means everyone involved gets to have input). Its going to be a combination of 'some things got fixed (by Ao/The Sundering), something just 'came back' (mostly - waters receded), and some things "were't quite as bad as folks had made them out to be" (which means taking the body of the 4e lore and count it as 'apocryphal, or rather, "stories told in-setting", which may or may not be entirely accurate.

I can even use the return of Imaskar - which I vehemently hate (even more so than the return of the Netherese) - even thought hey're gone agin, because while they were aorund, we can blame some pretty nifty stuff on them. For instance, someone at WotC doesn't really understand how tides and seas just planetary water in general works. Coonecting the salt march (or rather, the new body of water at the center of the old Salt Marshes) to BOTH the Alamber Sea and the Great Sea causes some major problems. Sometimes the water would flow one way, and other times, the other (there is a spot in Greece that has crazy-arse tides like that). HOWEVER, ritgh around the time this watery conundrum appears, we have the return of an uber-powerful magical empire (would just one city full of people really be an empire? Heck, I guess it worked for the Netherese, so why not). We can USE THAt - the Imaskari saw the problem, and saw how useful it might be to control such an important, potential trade-route, and built a LOCK on both ends of Salt Lake (not loving the name - suggestions?), turning the lake itself into an huge canal. Would they have that technology? Shou-Lung - which is an Imaskari survivor state - has them, hundreds of miles long, so obviously they can make them (and probably even better, using magic). Now the imaskari are gone (or are they?), and 'returned Mulhorand' (man, is this ever getting confusing!) has seized control of them.

They'd still be tricky to navigate, though, especially since a portion of the lower river passes rght through the Beastlands (they may have feared the Imaskari, but they won't fear the Mulhorandi).

Also, as for the 'returned' Mulhorandi - the way I thought of it in my head (even before WotC's Sundering thingie) was that most of the missing people - maybe 2/3-3/4 - fled to elsewhere, and mostly into Murghōm (which was actually part of Mulhorand anyway). More probably died later, because of food-shortages, and just out-right conflict because of the crowding, but around half the people should have survived somewhere, somehow (there may even be 'Mulan ghettos' in countries all around the Inner sea now). A large group of them may have even sought asylum in Shou-Lung. Once the waters receded, and stuff started going 'back to normal' (pre-4e and even pre-3e), many folks may have returned, and there would also be people who came from Abeir and 'got stuck' when some of their lands 'went back', making the new Mulan and even more mixed ethnic group than before.

And then there is the Quoya Desert, which didn't exist in The Realms just 1100 years ago (at the time of Athalantar). What if its fertile again? What if some of the Mulan ex-patraites settled there, and mixed with Shou? Shoulan? (They'd look sort-of Persian - a mix of 'Middle-Eastern' and 'Asian' features). We already have something very close to that in Semphar, and I hate redundancy (unless we do something uber-cool with them; not sure what though). Or maybe they resettled Guge? No-one really claims that region, and its certainly big enough. I'm glad the Dragonwall is gone as well (WAY TOO derivative). I'm gonna put a big ole' trench there... maybe a Dragon's Maw... LOL

Anyhow, I am picturing the geography damage to be a LOT less severe than what is depicted on 4e maps, but still of hint of what happened should be represented.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  22:31:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I haven't read through everything above my post yet - still sifting through it - we all have great ideas, but they are running in somewhat different directions (and we are starting to see why these projects never took-off before). But a couple of points -

I don't know why folks are assuming Gargauth was a demon, unless I am missing something. All it says it that he was 'an infernal power'. That just implies connections to lower planes, as far as i am concerned, like Tiamat, and others. In fact, 'infernal' usually refers to the Hells, doesn't it? Which makes a lot of sense, since he seems to have been stealing cults from demons. Of course, if he is truly ancient, he could be from a time before all these labels even mattered; he may have been 'something' that dwelt in the lower planes before Tanar'ri were even created.

Second, why can't Asmodeus himself be Gargeuth? Wouldn't that be the simplest explanation? Unless there is something that directly negates that theory. An uber-'fiend' that wants to be a god, BADLY, and especially be one in the Realms. Deceit, treachery, lies & cunning... *Ding Ding Ding* I think we have a winner. Of course he'd be operating through the cults he suborned, and also have an 'umbrella alias' (layers of deceit), because he would never want ANY of the gods - good, evil, or neutral - to realize who he really was and what he was up to. It sounds like a very long-range, well-laid set of plans to me. And Abbathor may have been a 'Chosen' (maybe offspring?) of Gargauth among the dwarves, like what Bane did with Xvim. Hell, do we even know who Vhaerann's daddy was?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2017 22:33:39
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1085 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  22:36:09  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Yeah, Gargauth is such an underrated and under used deity. It was one of the reasons it frustrated me so much to see Asmodeus become a deity (and a greater deity at that) in the Realms. Well, that as well as the fact that the portfolio held by Asmodeus made no sense. The portfolio of "sin"? What is that in the context of the Realms? What is "sinful" varies depending on the cult and the deity in question. It's like they basically just wanted a generic evil deity who also happened to be an arch-devil. It's hard for me to imagine that there is anything specific to the Realms plot-wise that either Gargauth or Bane could not have also done. Stuff in the Hells themselves? Yeah, you might need an Arch-Devil for that, but even then you do not necessarily need Asmodeus himself.



IIRC, they chose Asmodeus because he was popular among "new" players (people who started in 3.x). He was originally chosen to be part of the Dawn War pantheon of gods (the "core" pantheon of 4e), and later got translated to the FR pantheon because of his popularity.

Bane was also really popular (he got a spot in the Dawn War pantheon for this, as well), but he covered a different role that the one they wanted for Asmodeus.

Gargauth... well, he was neither popular not well known (to tell the truth, I just learned about him here, in this post—mind, I'm a "newbee" in D&D, because I was introduced to the lore in 4e). So, I guess he got ignored in the end.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I mean he is not only actively dominating the other Lords, but he is also challenging the deities as well. It is hard for me to imagine, for example, Bane tolerating Asmodeus having that much influence in the Realms. So, not only would he face hostile action from the evil deities attempting to thwart his influence (who would be willing to work with the other Lords of the Nine against him), but he would also face active opposition from all the good-aligned faiths (such as the Triad). I mean, being so active in the Realms is inviting multiple cults to begin active crusades against his faith.

The planes always strive toward keeping a precarious balance. When one individual or group gains too much power, they usually do not last that long. The greater and more powerful Asmodeus becomes the more and more he invites such a backlash.


Mind that in 4e many gods had either died, disappeared, revealed to be "aspects" of others, or subsumed by other deities (because they got weak by the Spellplague). The laws of the planes were rewritten because of the Spellplague, that altered reality itself at a multiversal scale. Asmodeus just seized the opportunity. And he was not the only one. Many gods, both good and evil (and neutral, and lawful, and chaotic), did it as well (suffice to say that Tharizdun exists in the Realms because of this).

Yeah, the Spellplague was that strong.

By the time reality was stable again, Asmodeus and those other gods had already get a hold in their positions in the planes, and were part of the surviving pantheons.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Minor correction: Zigguraxus is the home plane for the Untheric Pantheon. Heliopolis is the home plane for the Mulhorandi Pantheon. ...unless they are sharing the same divine plane in 5E?


My bad there, xD Yeah, is the plane of the Untheric gods.


quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

This is one of the reasons I find Enlil's return so odd. Unlike someone like Nanna-Sin, he actually left Toril willingly--he abandoned it and gave leadership to Gilgeam. I cannot think of a reason why he would want to return unless to reclaim the Untheric people as his own and overthrow his son. It is hard for me to understand or think how the Dragonborn would factor into this equation.

Maybe it is explored or explained better, and you can fill me in...


I find this as odd as you do. Bahamut (Marduk) has a reason to chose the dragonborn over the Untherans. He created a dragonborn race as well, during the Time of Dragons, to combat Tiamat. And according to Ed, the dragonborn of Bahamut and those from Abeir are somehow related. So, maybe Bahamut consider the Abeiran dragonborn to be his children as well (there is even the possibility that the Abeiran dragonborn are the descendants of the pre-historic dragonborn of Bahamut).

But Enlil? I find really odd.

When I asked Erin about this, she said that there is a NDA, so she can't say anything, and that WotC asked her to use Enlil and not Bahamut (even if he had more sense in that role), so... we have to make our own conclusions.

Now...

That plot of Ningal really makes sense. I guess, that explains why Selūne was active when the dragonborn fell on top of Nanna-Sin's tomb...

Now that you talk about Ningal, I wonder what happened to her... I guess we can brought her back to the Realms using the wibbly wobbly powers of the Spellplague.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1085 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  22:58:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Salt Lake


Azulduth is the name in the Mulhorandi (or Untheran) language. BTW, Okoth is placed there, and as far as we know it, the sarrukh are still controlling the place. You can use that empire instead of the Imaskari, if you want.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  23:32:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm picturing Peleveran as a city built into the cliffs of the landrise like the Indian Pueblos kind of. As a Cliffside city, this makes it highly defensible. I imagine also that there was a trail that led from the top of the Landrise to the bottom, and so Pelevaria became a waypoint for people to traverse from one side of the Shaar to the other. However, I want to know the part about the river better. In my maps I was also planning to build small cities at the top and bottom of the land rise as well and link these to Peleveran (which is what I'm calling the city despite it earlier being named Peleveria.... the Thayans didn't know better, plus they rebuilt it).
Except that the 3e map of The Shaar (in Shining South) clearly shows the city right where the river exits the landrise.* The 3e campaign map infers that thr river travels underground through the plateau for a bit, but on very early maps, you can see the river is traveling through a gorge cut through the plateau, that leads directly from the eastern Shaar (below the Landrise) to the Great rift, which are at the same altitude (which we know, because the river flows through there). That would mean that instead of Pelevaran being built into the clifface with the river running out of it*, there was just a 'hole' there - a cleft in the clifface, that the dwarves/whoever filled-in (I say dwarves, because it fits with the lore of Elsir Vale, which is really Channath Vale, even those those products were 'core'), and it also fits with the nearby Great Rift, and the fact the dwarves control several surface settlements around it (and wouldn't those highly-militaristic, nationalistic (and somewhat xenophobic) dwarves want to control the one level passageway that travels directly from the eastern Shaar into the heart of the Great Rift?)

So since we know its there, and now know there's a break in the Landrise there, we have to assume the dwarves (or whomever) 'filed in' the crack, while still allowing the water to escape*, so basically they built a fortress-city (a 'holt' or 'Hall') in that wedge, and that somehow managed to get the capital city of Pelevaran on top of it (I have a pretty cool idea if the layout for such a place, but I'd have to do a cut-away side view thing for it). from the outside (clifface-side), it would look something like RW Petra.

But then where is the temple? And from what you posted, the temple isn't nearly as old as I had hoped it was (although 'past lore' can be taken as in-setting 'hearsay' these days). Could the Gargauthites have carved the temple into the sides of the crevasse itself? So that when the dwarves (or who ever) built the fortress and city on top of it, it may not have actually been ON TOP of it. At least not directly. I'm going to have to whip something up.

I still think it should have been a much older temple that was re-purposed by the Gargauthites. We have both the dwarves and the drow before them all over that region, in ancient times. Dozens of such Ilythiir sites have been found over the years, and re-used by al manner of beings for all sorts of purposes. Hmmmm... wasn't there a fallen archangel associated with the Ilythiir? What was his name again?


* I am picturing something like how the Stonewrought Dam looks in WoW - maybe the river did have a series of small 'drops' inside the ravine, and dwarves altered the course to flow out one or more giant 'mouths' carved into the clifface itself.


*EDIT:My bad, it actually shows the city just north of the river. I had drawn it on my maps on top of the river, because I thought it would be cooler to have the 'underground river' flowing through the city. It still can - it can be on both sides, but the official map clearly shows it next to the river but on the north side. Still, I picture the dwarves of the Great Rift - regardless if they had any interaction with Pelevaran - having 'bricked-up' the crevasse on that end and having the water flowing out of a (normally) sealed grating (and knowing dwarves, they would have made it fancy 'just because', so it probably does look like a head or something, like a gargoyle... and I am using that word PROPERLY, since the things most people refer to as 'gargoyles' on buildings are really grotesques. A proper gargoyle is nothing more then a disguised - usually as some sort of demonic being - rain/water spout, and in most cases is just a face)...

The face of Gargauth?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2017 00:21:59
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 15 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000