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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 17:37:34
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I also want to talk about maps. Because its obvious that the first project (or second one) of the Candlekanon will deal with the Old Empires.
I'm re-drawing my map (is a difficult task, because I'm not as talented as Markustay and BRJ...), and thanks to BRJ's map, Chessenta and Akanūl look like real countries. I will be re-drawing Tymanther today (though is almost finished). So, this leads me to Unther and Mulhorand. How we will want to deal with the terrain? 1e/2e's shape or 4e's? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 20:21:41
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| Mostly 1e/2e as the Sundering and the Great Rain would have healed the land what was damaged during Sundering, but maybe keep a couple of major land marks from 4e as a memoneto of the time, like the Glass Meso. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 20:49:06
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Well, I have mostly of the terrain done. Though I have to rework in the mountains (I want to improve them). I also want to expand the map a little bit to include all of Murghōm.
I've left Akanūl as it was in 4e, because of sleyvas said (Akanūl was an improvement for the region). Tymanther, likewise, will remain as it was in 4e, as, as discussed before, official products hint that Tymanther didn't changed at all.
My question is more about Unther and Mulhorand. While is true that the Sundering did brought the level of the Sea to its 1e/2e levels, we don't want happened to the terrain. Unlike the Underschasm, those regions weren't rebuilt by Grumbar...
I have this stuff:
Model 1 (landforms more like they were in 1e/2e)
Model 2 (landforms more like they were in 4e, with the damaged terrain and such)
I also wonder what to do with Laothkund and the maw of the God Swallower. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Jul 2017 21:19:43 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 21:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
While I knew this lore... I didn't KNOW it. Its good a lot of times to reread stuff, as it makes you rethink what you had interpreted. Thank you.
Yeah, Gargauth is such an underrated and under used deity. It was one of the reasons it frustrated me so much to see Asmodeus become a deity (and a greater deity at that) in the Realms. Well, that as well as the fact that the portfolio held by Asmodeus made no sense. The portfolio of "sin"? What is that in the context of the Realms? What is "sinful" varies depending on the cult and the deity in question. It's like they basically just wanted a generic evil deity who also happened to be an arch-devil. It's hard for me to imagine that there is anything specific to the Realms plot-wise that either Gargauth or Bane could not have also done. Stuff in the Hells themselves? Yeah, you might need an Arch-Devil for that, but even then you do not necessarily need Asmodeus himself.
If there is one deity that really got the shaft it is probably Gargauth. He should at least be an intermediate power by 5th edition, lol. I mean, just in the aftermath of the Time of Troubles his cult and influence should have grown significantly.
Now, we have to figure out how and why he got trapped in the shield.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Because if Enlil was Gargauth, Asmodeus wouldn't need to strike a bargain with him. If Gargauth is a devil, Asmodeus just would have outright controlled itAsmodeus was a greater god in 4e (and is still a greater god in 5e, as per the SCAG), even if using Azuth's divine essence to achieve that. This is the reason the other Lords of Hell are powerless before him now: they aren't an active threat to Asmodeus anymore. If a Lord of Hell is powerless before Asmodeus, Galgauth is like a flea.
I wouldn't say that Gargauth is like a flea next to Asmodeus, he is a deity as well--not simply a devil. Then again, I am not sure if the other Lords of the Nine are also deities--if not, then they are certainly working on it. It is really hard for me to imagine a situation where the position Asmodeus holds in the Nine is sustainable. I mean he is not only actively dominating the other Lords, but he is also challenging the deities as well. It is hard for me to imagine, for example, Bane tolerating Asmodeus having that much influence in the Realms. So, not only would he face hostile action from the evil deities attempting to thwart his influence (who would be willing to work with the other Lords of the Nine against him), but he would also face active opposition from all the good-aligned faiths (such as the Triad). I mean, being so active in the Realms is inviting multiple cults to begin active crusades against his faith.
The planes always strive toward keeping a precarious balance. When one individual or group gains too much power, they usually do not last that long. The greater and more powerful Asmodeus becomes the more and more he invites such a backlash.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That's why I said that the deal between Enlil and Asmodeus was more complicated than just reviving Nanna-Sin.
Yeah, based on what you have written it seems very unlikely to be Gargauth. However, I still think it is likely another power impersonating Enlil. It just seems odd that he would randomly return after all of this time, and then turn against his own people to side with the Dragonborn. Side against Gilgeam? Yes, especially since it is not the real Gilgeam and is an imposter. However, if the real Enlil were to return, he likely would have reached out to someone like Namshita. He would not have been hostile to the Dragonborn, but would have supported the Mulan conquest of their lands and likely would have supported them as being honored citizens of the reborn Unther empire.
It seems out of character for him. We have to keep in mind that these are deities that literally sent physical manifestations to Toril in order to aid their faithful. They are not just human deities in the generic sense, they are deities very strongly associated with a human ethnic group. It is the equivalent of Corellon turning himself into a Dragonborn and working against the Elves because too many have fallen under Lolth's sway. It would be counter to who Corellon is as a character.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Also, because Enlil is actually a good god in the novelseven if somewhat powerlessand has access to Zigguraxus (the old outer plane of the Mulhorandi pantheon), while Gilgeam cannot access that place (at least, not initially). Something that means he is really the Mulhorandi Enlil, and not some imposter.
Minor correction: Zigguraxus is the home plane for the Untheric Pantheon. Heliopolis is the home plane for the Mulhorandi Pantheon. ...unless they are sharing the same divine plane in 5E?
There is also some weird lore issues there. There is the issues caused by the changes in the cosmology:
Powers and Pantheons, pg. 96:
quote:
The fallen manifestations and their associated incarnations vanished from the Realms, but left part of the power of their manifestations to be absorbed by the deities left behind. (Their deaths allowed them to bypass the ancient barrier and their manifestations were reabsorbed by their divine essences in the Outer Planes.)
Prior to 3E all the worlds were connected, and thus the Enlil or Nanna-Sin on Toril was the Enlil and Nanna-Sin everywhere else in the cosmology. The manifestations were basically a hybrid of avatars and aspects--physical copies of the deity that were cut off from its core essence. Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and all the rest existed on Zigguraxus in the planes, but their manifestations were seperated from that core essence.
Anyway, all of this means is that Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and all the rest--including Gilgeam were already chilling out in Zigguraxus. They just did not have a presence in the Realms.
This is one of the reasons I find Enlil's return so odd. Unlike someone like Nanna-Sin, he actually left Toril willingly--he abandoned it and gave leadership to Gilgeam. I cannot think of a reason why he would want to return unless to reclaim the Untheric people as his own and overthrow his son. It is hard for me to understand or think how the Dragonborn would factor into this equation.
Maybe it is explored or explained better, and you can fill me in...
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Nanna-Sin was dead. This is confirmed in both Ashes of the Tyrant and the Devil You Know. He was revived in the battle, yeah, but that is the key word: revived.
Yeah, Nanna-Sin is definitely dead. However, he had been dead for 2,456 years before the Dragonborn even showed up. 
Most people believe that Nanna-Sin was being used as an alias of Selūne in the region.
Powers of Faerūn, pg. 28
quote:
Untheric Crusade: For three years, the armies of Mulhorand have slowly pushed into Unther, claiming more and more of their once-powerful rival's territory for Pharaoh Horustep III. By the end of the Year of Rogue Dragons (1373 DR), Mulhorand had conquered all of Unther except the city of Messemprar, and its armies threatened to lay siege to that city once the rainy season (winter) had passed despite frenzied attacks by small flights of dragons from the Riders to the Sky mountains. Early in the Year of Lightning Storms (1374 DR), two events changed the thrust of this war. First, the Banite templars of the Black Lords Altar in Mourktar marched forth to the defense of Messemprar, reinforcing the besieged defenders of that city. Early successes by the Banites were attributed to a massive influx of magical weaponry from Thay sold to the church of Bane at cut-rate prices. Second, the Shussel-folk who disappeared from their city in the mysterious event known as the Vanishing have reappeared in Shussel as the Legion of Nanna-Sin. According to reports, the Shussel-folk were taken to the "lost" plane of Zigguraxus by Nanna-Sin (who might be an aspect of Selūne), transformed into aasimar, and trained as elite warriors. Now the Legion has returned, opening a new front against the rear flank of Mulhorand's forward armies.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, 3rd Edition, pg. 188.
quote:
Often referring to herself as the "daughter of the moon," Ningal is a mysterious Untherite woman currently organizing a rebellion against the invaders from Mulhorand. She supplies her followers with magic weapons and shields (each bearing the symbol of Selūne) to use against the Mulhorandi, warding them with abjuration magic and encouraging a hit-and-run war of sabotage.
Ningal speaks little of her origin, but her genasi nature is evident in her constantly windblown hair and skin that is cool to the touch even on the hottest day. Her followers genuinely love their leader, for she lends them strength against their enemy and heals their wounds when they have been injured.
Ningal's most faithful follower is Jeardra of Aglarond (NG moon elf female Clr9 of Selūne), who has been with her for over a year.
Jeardra believes that Ningal has been favored with a high destiny in the Service of Selūne and may eventually become the Chosen of Selūne. Ningal herself makes no claim, focusing instead on the liberation of her people through her power and her faith in the Moonmaiden.
The genasi is considered a rabble-rouser and dangerous rebel by the Mulhorandi government, which has offered a bounty of ten thousand gold pieces for her capture. So far she has evaded her pursuers through careful selection of safe houses and the use of her helm of teleportation. The Northern Wizards of Messemprar would like to gain her as an ally, but Ningal remains wary, fearing Mulhorandi spies and assassins.
So, Selūne was active in the region post-Time of Troubles. It was just a plotline that was never brought to completion. This is how I ended up suggesting that Nanna-Sin was not the real Nanna-Sin, but rather an aspect of Selūne that was transformed by Dragonborn "worship." This assumption relies on the Powers of Faerūn entry. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 22:00:59
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Yeah, I agree with the Asmodeus statement for him showing up. I was like "we already had Gargauth... he filled that role...". That being said, Gargauth makes a good warlock patron and it makes sense. Personally though, I will take the statement of "he's trapped in the shield" to mean "we heard him talking through a shield in a dream and saying he's trapped". In truth, I want him trapped back in the Pit in Peleveran, but able to offer "pacts" to warlocks from his prison, and hoping that he can hook one powerful enough to come free him.
On that front, I'd maybe also like Jorgmacdon (the first Zulkir of Conjuration from way back when that I want to bring back) pissed at Gargauth, and maybe he's put all kinds of death traps around the pit to prevent him getting freed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 22:05:59
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I'm thinking about making the Maw (and maybe the Lands Mouth) just much smaller (and maybe have lrore saying they are still 'shrinking', but much more slowly then they were at first).
I've also been working on the maps like crazy, trying different approahces, and I have at least three 'flase starts'. Thats why I am finishing that part of my continental map first - I need something on that scale to get more of a 'feel' for the changes. I've always had this weird thing about doing much larger regions then my maps were actually for, in order to get everything 'just right' (so in most cases, what I show you guys is just the center part of a much larger map). I think in the cases of these 5e hybrid maps, thats exactly the approach we are going to need.
For example, the Shaar used to (and once again, as of 5e) have MUCH MORE terrain to it. The 4e maps show that most of it is just a giant hole, but even if we were to keep that hole approximately the same size, it still wouldn't take up nearly as much room as it did on the 3e/4e terrain layout. That would give us a very different - and perhaps very cool - new look. That is why I am going for a 'hybrid' version right now, probably as part of the CandleKanon project (which means everyone involved gets to have input). Its going to be a combination of 'some things got fixed (by Ao/The Sundering), something just 'came back' (mostly - waters receded), and some things "were't quite as bad as folks had made them out to be" (which means taking the body of the 4e lore and count it as 'apocryphal, or rather, "stories told in-setting", which may or may not be entirely accurate.
I can even use the return of Imaskar - which I vehemently hate (even more so than the return of the Netherese) - even thought hey're gone agin, because while they were aorund, we can blame some pretty nifty stuff on them. For instance, someone at WotC doesn't really understand how tides and seas just planetary water in general works. Coonecting the salt march (or rather, the new body of water at the center of the old Salt Marshes) to BOTH the Alamber Sea and the Great Sea causes some major problems. Sometimes the water would flow one way, and other times, the other (there is a spot in Greece that has crazy-arse tides like that). HOWEVER, ritgh around the time this watery conundrum appears, we have the return of an uber-powerful magical empire (would just one city full of people really be an empire? Heck, I guess it worked for the Netherese, so why not). We can USE THAt - the Imaskari saw the problem, and saw how useful it might be to control such an important, potential trade-route, and built a LOCK on both ends of Salt Lake (not loving the name - suggestions?), turning the lake itself into an huge canal. Would they have that technology? Shou-Lung - which is an Imaskari survivor state - has them, hundreds of miles long, so obviously they can make them (and probably even better, using magic). Now the imaskari are gone (or are they?), and 'returned Mulhorand' (man, is this ever getting confusing!) has seized control of them.
They'd still be tricky to navigate, though, especially since a portion of the lower river passes rght through the Beastlands (they may have feared the Imaskari, but they won't fear the Mulhorandi).
Also, as for the 'returned' Mulhorandi - the way I thought of it in my head (even before WotC's Sundering thingie) was that most of the missing people - maybe 2/3-3/4 - fled to elsewhere, and mostly into Murghōm (which was actually part of Mulhorand anyway). More probably died later, because of food-shortages, and just out-right conflict because of the crowding, but around half the people should have survived somewhere, somehow (there may even be 'Mulan ghettos' in countries all around the Inner sea now). A large group of them may have even sought asylum in Shou-Lung. Once the waters receded, and stuff started going 'back to normal' (pre-4e and even pre-3e), many folks may have returned, and there would also be people who came from Abeir and 'got stuck' when some of their lands 'went back', making the new Mulan and even more mixed ethnic group than before.
And then there is the Quoya Desert, which didn't exist in The Realms just 1100 years ago (at the time of Athalantar). What if its fertile again? What if some of the Mulan ex-patraites settled there, and mixed with Shou? Shoulan? (They'd look sort-of Persian - a mix of 'Middle-Eastern' and 'Asian' features). We already have something very close to that in Semphar, and I hate redundancy (unless we do something uber-cool with them; not sure what though). Or maybe they resettled Guge? No-one really claims that region, and its certainly big enough. I'm glad the Dragonwall is gone as well (WAY TOO derivative). I'm gonna put a big ole' trench there... maybe a Dragon's Maw... LOL
Anyhow, I am picturing the geography damage to be a LOT less severe than what is depicted on 4e maps, but still of hint of what happened should be represented. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 22:31:34
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Okay, I haven't read through everything above my post yet - still sifting through it - we all have great ideas, but they are running in somewhat different directions (and we are starting to see why these projects never took-off before). But a couple of points -
I don't know why folks are assuming Gargauth was a demon, unless I am missing something. All it says it that he was 'an infernal power'. That just implies connections to lower planes, as far as i am concerned, like Tiamat, and others. In fact, 'infernal' usually refers to the Hells, doesn't it? Which makes a lot of sense, since he seems to have been stealing cults from demons. Of course, if he is truly ancient, he could be from a time before all these labels even mattered; he may have been 'something' that dwelt in the lower planes before Tanar'ri were even created.
Second, why can't Asmodeus himself be Gargeuth? Wouldn't that be the simplest explanation? Unless there is something that directly negates that theory. An uber-'fiend' that wants to be a god, BADLY, and especially be one in the Realms. Deceit, treachery, lies & cunning... *Ding Ding Ding* I think we have a winner. Of course he'd be operating through the cults he suborned, and also have an 'umbrella alias' (layers of deceit), because he would never want ANY of the gods - good, evil, or neutral - to realize who he really was and what he was up to. It sounds like a very long-range, well-laid set of plans to me. And Abbathor may have been a 'Chosen' (maybe offspring?) of Gargauth among the dwarves, like what Bane did with Xvim. Hell, do we even know who Vhaerann's daddy was?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2017 22:33:39 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 22:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Yeah, Gargauth is such an underrated and under used deity. It was one of the reasons it frustrated me so much to see Asmodeus become a deity (and a greater deity at that) in the Realms. Well, that as well as the fact that the portfolio held by Asmodeus made no sense. The portfolio of "sin"? What is that in the context of the Realms? What is "sinful" varies depending on the cult and the deity in question. It's like they basically just wanted a generic evil deity who also happened to be an arch-devil. It's hard for me to imagine that there is anything specific to the Realms plot-wise that either Gargauth or Bane could not have also done. Stuff in the Hells themselves? Yeah, you might need an Arch-Devil for that, but even then you do not necessarily need Asmodeus himself.
IIRC, they chose Asmodeus because he was popular among "new" players (people who started in 3.x). He was originally chosen to be part of the Dawn War pantheon of gods (the "core" pantheon of 4e), and later got translated to the FR pantheon because of his popularity.
Bane was also really popular (he got a spot in the Dawn War pantheon for this, as well), but he covered a different role that the one they wanted for Asmodeus.
Gargauth... well, he was neither popular not well known (to tell the truth, I just learned about him here, in this postmind, I'm a "newbee" in D&D, because I was introduced to the lore in 4e). So, I guess he got ignored in the end.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I mean he is not only actively dominating the other Lords, but he is also challenging the deities as well. It is hard for me to imagine, for example, Bane tolerating Asmodeus having that much influence in the Realms. So, not only would he face hostile action from the evil deities attempting to thwart his influence (who would be willing to work with the other Lords of the Nine against him), but he would also face active opposition from all the good-aligned faiths (such as the Triad). I mean, being so active in the Realms is inviting multiple cults to begin active crusades against his faith.
The planes always strive toward keeping a precarious balance. When one individual or group gains too much power, they usually do not last that long. The greater and more powerful Asmodeus becomes the more and more he invites such a backlash.
Mind that in 4e many gods had either died, disappeared, revealed to be "aspects" of others, or subsumed by other deities (because they got weak by the Spellplague). The laws of the planes were rewritten because of the Spellplague, that altered reality itself at a multiversal scale. Asmodeus just seized the opportunity. And he was not the only one. Many gods, both good and evil (and neutral, and lawful, and chaotic), did it as well (suffice to say that Tharizdun exists in the Realms because of this).
Yeah, the Spellplague was that strong.
By the time reality was stable again, Asmodeus and those other gods had already get a hold in their positions in the planes, and were part of the surviving pantheons.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Minor correction: Zigguraxus is the home plane for the Untheric Pantheon. Heliopolis is the home plane for the Mulhorandi Pantheon. ...unless they are sharing the same divine plane in 5E?
My bad there, xD Yeah, is the plane of the Untheric gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
This is one of the reasons I find Enlil's return so odd. Unlike someone like Nanna-Sin, he actually left Toril willingly--he abandoned it and gave leadership to Gilgeam. I cannot think of a reason why he would want to return unless to reclaim the Untheric people as his own and overthrow his son. It is hard for me to understand or think how the Dragonborn would factor into this equation.
Maybe it is explored or explained better, and you can fill me in...
I find this as odd as you do. Bahamut (Marduk) has a reason to chose the dragonborn over the Untherans. He created a dragonborn race as well, during the Time of Dragons, to combat Tiamat. And according to Ed, the dragonborn of Bahamut and those from Abeir are somehow related. So, maybe Bahamut consider the Abeiran dragonborn to be his children as well (there is even the possibility that the Abeiran dragonborn are the descendants of the pre-historic dragonborn of Bahamut).
But Enlil? I find really odd.
When I asked Erin about this, she said that there is a NDA, so she can't say anything, and that WotC asked her to use Enlil and not Bahamut (even if he had more sense in that role), so... we have to make our own conclusions.
Now...
That plot of Ningal really makes sense. I guess, that explains why Selūne was active when the dragonborn fell on top of Nanna-Sin's tomb...
Now that you talk about Ningal, I wonder what happened to her... I guess we can brought her back to the Realms using the wibbly wobbly powers of the Spellplague.  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 22:58:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Salt Lake
Azulduth is the name in the Mulhorandi (or Untheran) language. BTW, Okoth is placed there, and as far as we know it, the sarrukh are still controlling the place. You can use that empire instead of the Imaskari, if you want. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2017 : 23:32:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm picturing Peleveran as a city built into the cliffs of the landrise like the Indian Pueblos kind of. As a Cliffside city, this makes it highly defensible. I imagine also that there was a trail that led from the top of the Landrise to the bottom, and so Pelevaria became a waypoint for people to traverse from one side of the Shaar to the other. However, I want to know the part about the river better. In my maps I was also planning to build small cities at the top and bottom of the land rise as well and link these to Peleveran (which is what I'm calling the city despite it earlier being named Peleveria.... the Thayans didn't know better, plus they rebuilt it).
Except that the 3e map of The Shaar (in Shining South) clearly shows the city right where the river exits the landrise.* The 3e campaign map infers that thr river travels underground through the plateau for a bit, but on very early maps, you can see the river is traveling through a gorge cut through the plateau, that leads directly from the eastern Shaar (below the Landrise) to the Great rift, which are at the same altitude (which we know, because the river flows through there). That would mean that instead of Pelevaran being built into the clifface with the river running out of it*, there was just a 'hole' there - a cleft in the clifface, that the dwarves/whoever filled-in (I say dwarves, because it fits with the lore of Elsir Vale, which is really Channath Vale, even those those products were 'core'), and it also fits with the nearby Great Rift, and the fact the dwarves control several surface settlements around it (and wouldn't those highly-militaristic, nationalistic (and somewhat xenophobic) dwarves want to control the one level passageway that travels directly from the eastern Shaar into the heart of the Great Rift?)
So since we know its there, and now know there's a break in the Landrise there, we have to assume the dwarves (or whomever) 'filed in' the crack, while still allowing the water to escape*, so basically they built a fortress-city (a 'holt' or 'Hall') in that wedge, and that somehow managed to get the capital city of Pelevaran on top of it (I have a pretty cool idea if the layout for such a place, but I'd have to do a cut-away side view thing for it). from the outside (clifface-side), it would look something like RW Petra.
But then where is the temple? And from what you posted, the temple isn't nearly as old as I had hoped it was (although 'past lore' can be taken as in-setting 'hearsay' these days). Could the Gargauthites have carved the temple into the sides of the crevasse itself? So that when the dwarves (or who ever) built the fortress and city on top of it, it may not have actually been ON TOP of it. At least not directly. I'm going to have to whip something up.
I still think it should have been a much older temple that was re-purposed by the Gargauthites. We have both the dwarves and the drow before them all over that region, in ancient times. Dozens of such Ilythiir sites have been found over the years, and re-used by al manner of beings for all sorts of purposes. Hmmmm... wasn't there a fallen archangel associated with the Ilythiir? What was his name again?
* I am picturing something like how the Stonewrought Dam looks in WoW - maybe the river did have a series of small 'drops' inside the ravine, and dwarves altered the course to flow out one or more giant 'mouths' carved into the clifface itself.
*EDIT:My bad, it actually shows the city just north of the river. I had drawn it on my maps on top of the river, because I thought it would be cooler to have the 'underground river' flowing through the city. It still can - it can be on both sides, but the official map clearly shows it next to the river but on the north side. Still, I picture the dwarves of the Great Rift - regardless if they had any interaction with Pelevaran - having 'bricked-up' the crevasse on that end and having the water flowing out of a (normally) sealed grating (and knowing dwarves, they would have made it fancy 'just because', so it probably does look like a head or something, like a gargoyle... and I am using that word PROPERLY, since the things most people refer to as 'gargoyles' on buildings are really grotesques. A proper gargoyle is nothing more then a disguised - usually as some sort of demonic being - rain/water spout, and in most cases is just a face)...
The face of Gargauth? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2017 00:21:59 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
IIRC, they chose Asmodeus because he was popular among "new" players (people who started in 3.x). He was originally chosen to be part of the Dawn War pantheon of gods (the "core" pantheon of 4e), and later got translated to the FR pantheon because of his popularity.
Bane was also really popular (he got a spot in the Dawn War pantheon for this, as well), but he covered a different role that the one they wanted for Asmodeus.
That makes sense, now. Yeah, I remember Bane making the port over to the core setting in 4E. I knew they changed stuff (with Primordials and what not), but did not know they changed the stuff with Asmodeus in the Realms to reflect the core setting. Sigh.
Well, at least I have an explanation for why it happened. It just always seemed odd. I mean, setting-wise, there isn't anything Asmodeus can do plot-wise that wouldn't have been a better fit for Bane or Gargauth (in terms of setting and lore). Asmodeus just felt... redundant? It felt like he was taking the spotlight away from other better established (in terms of setting and lore) deities--Bane mostly.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Gargauth... well, he was neither popular not well known (to tell the truth, I just learned about him here, in this postmind, I'm a "newbee" in D&D, because I was introduced to the lore in 4e). So, I guess he got ignored in the end.
Gargauth's getting shafted did not start with 4th Edition. It has been an ongoing problem for him. I do not understand why, because his backstory is honestly really interesting and good. An exiled former Lord of the Nine Hells that was regarded as so vile that the other Lords of the Nine feared him? Yep. That's interesting.
I always, in my mind, contrast Gargauth and Bane. Bane is very much about being the one who sits on the throne--the tyrant, the dictator, the boss. Gargauth is more subtle. He does not want to sit on the throne, he wants to be the power behind the throne.
I think this is one of the reasons Gargauth gets shafted. He is not overt in the same way Bane is--he acts in subtle ways, and the people he engages with often do not know with whom they are dealing. Unlike a lot of traditional evil powers, Gargauth actually turns most of his attention against other evil powers. This makes him ideal for giving aid and assistance to 'the good guys'--so they are cutting deals with an ancient power, getting caught up in arrangements with him, all unknowingly. ...and there Gargauth is, behind the scenes pulling the strings.
Something similar happened to Shar, but on the opposite end. She, like Gargauth, is very much a behind the scenes manipulator. However, she was turned into a more Bane-like figure with the Return of Netheril. WotC made her actions more overt and more aggressive when really that was never her style until 3rd Edition.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Mind that in 4e many gods had either died, disappeared, revealed to be "aspects" of others, or subsumed by other deities (because they got weak by the Spellplague).
...and if that was not confusing enough to everyone, the Sundering basically changed (some) of it back.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I find this as odd as you do. Bahamut (Marduk) has a reason to chose the dragonborn over the Untherans. He created a dragonborn race as well, during the Time of Dragons, to combat Tiamat. And according to Ed, the dragonborn of Bahamut and those from Abeir are somehow related. So, maybe Bahamut consider the Abeiran dragonborn to be his children as well (there is even the possibility that the Abeiran dragonborn are the descendants of the pre-historic dragonborn of Bahamut).
But Enlil? I find really odd.
When I asked Erin about this, she said that there is a NDA, so she can't say anything, and that WotC asked her to use Enlil and not Bahamut (even if he had more sense in that role), so... we have to make our own conclusions.
I agree completely. Having Bahamut/Marduk develop an interest in the Dragonborn makes sense. The same goes for Tiamat. All of that, though, should have happened pre-Sundering, sometime during the 100-year time jump between 3E and 4E.
Dragonborn actually make ideal Bahamut worshipers, and well... it's better than what they've currently got. According to Erin, they are all ending up in the Wall of the Faithless, lol.
I guess WotC was just looking for a way to bring all the deities back. So, they needed a reason to involve Enlil.
The best explanation, like I said previously, is that Enlil is not really Enlil, but is someone else. However, I cannot think of who or why someone would do that--I mean, I do not see the advantage of appearing as Enlil. Let's say it was someone like (randomly) Lathander. Okay. Why not just appear to them as Lathander instead? That is what I mean by not seeing the advantage of a ruse.
...and based off what you wrote it does not sound like a currently powerful deity.
Any ideas?
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now...
That plot of Ningal really makes sense. I guess, that explains why Selūne was active when the dragonborn fell on top of Nanna-Sin's tomb...
Now that you talk about Ningal, I wonder what happened to her... I guess we can brought her back to the Realms using the wibbly wobbly powers of the Spellplague.
Yeah, Selūne was majorly active in that region after the fall of Unther and Gilgeam.
Anyway, I do not think there is any real reason to bring Ningal back. She would likely immediately go and align herself with Tymanther, and that would mean that she is basically filling the same plot position as someone like Namshita. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:23:54
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And being a genasi, I feel like nobody will love her in Unther, really. But the character seems really interesting, for what I see. More interesting than Namshita, in fact.
As for Enlil... really, dunno. I'm not so proficient in Realms-lore yet... a deity from an old empire that wanted to be back and took pity of the dragonborn? A mulhorandi power maskerading as Enlil? Enlil is not even mentioned in the SCAG, so... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But then where is the temple? And from what you posted, the temple isn't nearly as old as I had hoped it was (although 'past lore' can be taken as in-setting 'hearsay' these days). Could the Gargauthites have carved the temple into the sides of the crevasse itself? So that when the dwarves (or who ever) built the fortress and city on top of it, it may not have actually been ON TOP of it. At least not directly. I'm going to have to whip something up.
I still think it should have been a much older temple that was re-purposed by the Gargauthites. We have both the dwarves and the drow before them all over that region, in ancient times. Dozens of such Ilythiir sites have been found over the years, and re-used by al manner of beings for all sorts of purposes.
The area is much older than the temple itself. It is somewhere deep underground around a large pit. From the description, it sounds like it is in the Upperdark somewhere. It talks about "vast fungal farms" and herds of deep rothe.
The temple itself is built around the pit that Gargauth was allegedly trapped in, which is also said to be a gateway to the Nine Hells.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... wasn't there a fallen archangel associated with the Ilythiir? What was his name again?
Are you talking about Malkizid?
BTW, I agree with you about the dwarves. This area was obviously heavily settled by the dwarves prior to human settlement. I would not even be shocked to learn that Pelevarn was primarily human, but had a substantial number of dwarven citizens as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:30:49
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Yeah! Malkizid! Whats he been up to? Can he be posing as someone? Maybe Gargauth was 'Malkizid reborn'? I fear I don't know much about that bit of history - Elves were never my favorite subject, and 'planer lore' I am certainly no expert in (I LOVE to talk about it, but most of what I know is just from others correcting me over the years - sadly, I mostly ignored Palnscape when it was around).
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Salt Lake
Azulduth is the name in the Mulhorandi (or Untheran) language. BTW, Okoth is placed there, and as far as we know it, the sarrukh are still controlling the place. You can use that empire instead of the Imaskari, if you want.
Uh-DOH! How could that have slipped my mind? 
As for Okoth and the Sarrukh... just NO. I have had it up to here (my hand is hovering just above the moon right now) with 'returned ancient dead empires'. I mean, at some point they must have just been taking the whole thing as a joke, right? "Hey, what if every single bad-guy were around at the same time?" Were there no adults in the room? I like the Sarrukh... and Imaskari... and Netherese... etc., etc., in the past, where they belong. Thats why The Realms have HISTORY. You kind of devalue all the kewlness when you are slapping people in the face with it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2017 00:36:46 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:37:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Okoth and the Sarrukh... just NO. I have had it up to here (my hand is hovering just above the moon right now) with 'returned ancient dead empires'. I mean, at some point they must have just been taking the whole thing as a joke, right? "Hey, what if every single bad-guy were around at the same time?" Were there no adults in the room? I like the Sarrukh... and Imaskari... and Netherese... etc., etc., in the past, where they belong. Thats why The Realms have HISTORY. You kind of devalue all the kewlness when you are slapping people in the face with it.
Well, they've been there since 3.x. Not all that is wrong in the Realms was the blame of 4e, it seems.  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 00:38:40 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Okoth and the Sarrukh... just NO. I have had it up to here (my hand is hovering just above the moon right now) with 'returned ancient dead empires'. I mean, at some point they must have just been taking the whole thing as a joke, right? "Hey, what if every single bad-guy were around at the same time?" Were there no adults in the room? I like the Sarrukh... and Imaskari... and Netherese... etc., etc., in the past, where they belong. Thats why The Realms have HISTORY. You kind of devalue all the kewlness when you are slapping people in the face with it.
I know. That's why I choose not to think about it too closely and just yadda, yadda, yadda on past it. Then look forward into the future, and hope the future makes more sense than the past.
Unfortunately, I feel a bit trapped. I feel like the only way to fix things so that they make sense is to hit the RSE button, and I loathe the RSE button, lol. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 00:41:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah! Malkizid! Whats he been up to? Can he be posing as someone? Maybe Gargauth was 'Malkizid reborn'? I fear I don't know much about that bit of history - Elves were never my favorite subject, and 'planer lore' I am certainly no expert in (I LOVE to talk about it, but most of what I know is just from others correcting me over the years - sadly, I mostly ignored Palnscape when it was around).
As far as I know he is still kicking around. He got beaten up a bit when Myth Drannor returned, but other than that I think he is fine. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 01:49:53
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Hmmm, ok, I've had a chance to open up my old 1e maps and the Forgotten Realms atlas program too. You are definitely right on the part where the great rift and the landrise were MUCH closer in 2e than 3e. However, I don't have the hatred of the 3e maps that others do (the only real part that made me mad was that Vaasa wasn't north of Damara anymore).
I see what you mean on the river and Peleveran. Perhaps a good way to do this is a meet in the middle? By that, I mean that the Great Rift is higher than the Eastern Shaar. So, maybe the water does flow underground, and then there's a little divet inwards at the landrise edge and there's a waterfall. This would make like a river gorge with high walls to either side. Hell, maybe Peleveran even took advantage of the waterfall and they had something akin to an aqueduct system that ran water in channels built along the cliff and into the homes built into the cliff face. Also, as the water had eaten away at the gorge walls over the years, maybe it had formed some natural walkways. They may have even built several either solid bridges or rope bridges to get from one side of the gorge to the other. This would be highly defensible, and no one could easily cut off their water. Of course, when you're living in caves on a cliff side (even nicely decorated ones) and a bunch of dragons show up and start breathing fire into those caves.... yeah, not so defensible.
So, if the original city is on both sides of a gorge with a waterfall, aqueducts, and a river at the bottom..... that would mean that if a city were built on the top, it would probably also line both sides of said gorge, and any city at the bottom would probably instead sit along the landrise itself so that it has the landrise as a defensible back (and maybe there are caves above the lower city as well... and the caves may pass all the way through to the caves on the inside of the gorge, but with traps and deadfalls in case of invaders that can easily be set.
Of course, the question becomes, if it did indeed go to Abeir was there a river running through there while in Abeir... and is the Underchasm actually from Abeir or was this an instance of something going over, but nothing coming back.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 01:57:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, I haven't read through everything above my post yet - still sifting through it - we all have great ideas, but they are running in somewhat different directions (and we are starting to see why these projects never took-off before). But a couple of points -
I don't know why folks are assuming Gargauth was a demon, unless I am missing something. All it says it that he was 'an infernal power'. That just implies connections to lower planes, as far as i am concerned, like Tiamat, and others. In fact, 'infernal' usually refers to the Hells, doesn't it? Which makes a lot of sense, since he seems to have been stealing cults from demons. Of course, if he is truly ancient, he could be from a time before all these labels even mattered; he may have been 'something' that dwelt in the lower planes before Tanar'ri were even created.
Second, why can't Asmodeus himself be Gargeuth? Wouldn't that be the simplest explanation? Unless there is something that directly negates that theory. An uber-'fiend' that wants to be a god, BADLY, and especially be one in the Realms. Deceit, treachery, lies & cunning... *Ding Ding Ding* I think we have a winner. Of course he'd be operating through the cults he suborned, and also have an 'umbrella alias' (layers of deceit), because he would never want ANY of the gods - good, evil, or neutral - to realize who he really was and what he was up to. It sounds like a very long-range, well-laid set of plans to me. And Abbathor may have been a 'Chosen' (maybe offspring?) of Gargauth among the dwarves, like what Bane did with Xvim. Hell, do we even know who Vhaerann's daddy was?
Gargauth was a devil. He was an outcast devil. Asmodeus didn't like him no more. Basically, as I see it, he wanted to become a god to protect himself from Asmodeus (in addition to all the stuff that being a god offers). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 04:04:51
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Yeah, I've kinda modified how I was picturing Pelevaran. I started working on drawing of it and wasn't happy with it so I nixed it... for now. The picture in my head is beautiful (AND utilitarian), but putting it on paper is hard, especially in three dimensions. Like I said before, like how Petra is built in the cliff-faces, but with even more of an artistic flourish (almost elven, with the way the water would be woven into the design).
Like a cross between RW Petra, and maybe THIS. (Although picture the cliff-face continuing on the right side as well - more 'closed in', and less 'green', maybe). Mostly I just like the idea of the water pouring out and down from the structure in a couple of spots (it is, after all, a giant 'cork'). I really need to draw it - I can't really find anything close.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Okoth and the Sarrukh... just NO. I have had it up to here (my hand is hovering just above the moon right now) with 'returned ancient dead empires'. I mean, at some point they must have just been taking the whole thing as a joke, right? "Hey, what if every single bad-guy were around at the same time?" Were there no adults in the room? I like the Sarrukh... and Imaskari... and Netherese... etc., etc., in the past, where they belong. Thats why The Realms have HISTORY. You kind of devalue all the kewlness when you are slapping people in the face with it.
Well, they've been there since 3.x. Not all that is wrong in the Realms was the blame of 4e, it seems.
Yeah, but they were HIDDEN. In fact, there were Khaasta in the area looking for them and couldn't find them (and they are supposed to be some very excellent cross-planer trackers/hunters). So they went from being very well hidden and liking it that way, to having the name of their kingdom slapped on (what appears to be) an in-setting map, in great big neon lights. Okay, maybe not neon...but you get the idea.
More like 'a few surviving Sarrukh', not a whole kingdom of them. that would be dumb.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gargauth was a devil. He was an outcast devil. Asmodeus didn't like him no more. Basically, as I see it, he wanted to become a god to protect himself from Asmodeus (in addition to all the stuff that being a god offers).
But where does it say he is a devil? All I've seen him described as 'an infernal power'.
Bear in mind, Asmodeus himself is not a devil - he is a fallen archangel. I guess you could say he was 'the first' devil, but I don't even think that feels right - supposedly baatezu have been around forever. So if Asmodeus could be 'born' one thing and is now considered 'a devil' then why can't Gargauth - he may be an even more ancient being - have been something else as well?
What if Gargauth was the first of Hell's 'wardens' (it DID start-off as a prison-plane for captured enemies during the Dawn War). What if Gargauth was the head of the POW camp until Luc... Asmodeus wanted the job? Maybe Gargauth was running the thing Auschwitz style and the gods put Asmodeus in charge because he was somewhat less vile.
Since the tie of Dawn War/ Godswar, a LOT has changed, including the nature of Hell itself, and the exact meaning of 'demon' and 'devil' (which aren't necessarily the same thing as Tanar'ri and Baatezu -the first two are just labels for anyone associated with or lives in a particular lower plane, and the second two are actual races... which I believe were created by the ultraloths. Or has that been retconned? I recall 4e saying demons were corrupted elementals, at least initially). So just because something is considered something now, doesn't mean it was always that thing (just look at Lloth, or Grazzt, or even Malkizid). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2017 04:22:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 04:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm picturing Peleveran as a city built into the cliffs of the landrise like the Indian Pueblos kind of. As a Cliffside city, this makes it highly defensible. I imagine also that there was a trail that led from the top of the Landrise to the bottom, and so Pelevaria became a waypoint for people to traverse from one side of the Shaar to the other. However, I want to know the part about the river better. In my maps I was also planning to build small cities at the top and bottom of the land rise as well and link these to Peleveran (which is what I'm calling the city despite it earlier being named Peleveria.... the Thayans didn't know better, plus they rebuilt it).
Except that the 3e map of The Shaar (in Shining South) clearly shows the city right where the river exits the landrise.* The 3e campaign map infers that thr river travels underground through the plateau for a bit, but on very early maps, you can see the river is traveling through a gorge cut through the plateau, that leads directly from the eastern Shaar (below the Landrise) to the Great rift, which are at the same altitude (which we know, because the river flows through there). That would mean that instead of Pelevaran being built into the clifface with the river running out of it*, there was just a 'hole' there - a cleft in the clifface, that the dwarves/whoever filled-in (I say dwarves, because it fits with the lore of Elsir Vale, which is really Channath Vale, even those those products were 'core'), and it also fits with the nearby Great Rift, and the fact the dwarves control several surface settlements around it (and wouldn't those highly-militaristic, nationalistic (and somewhat xenophobic) dwarves want to control the one level passageway that travels directly from the eastern Shaar into the heart of the Great Rift?)
So since we know its there, and now know there's a break in the Landrise there, we have to assume the dwarves (or whomever) 'filed in' the crack, while still allowing the water to escape*, so basically they built a fortress-city (a 'holt' or 'Hall') in that wedge, and that somehow managed to get the capital city of Pelevaran on top of it (I have a pretty cool idea if the layout for such a place, but I'd have to do a cut-away side view thing for it). from the outside (clifface-side), it would look something like RW Petra.
But then where is the temple? And from what you posted, the temple isn't nearly as old as I had hoped it was (although 'past lore' can be taken as in-setting 'hearsay' these days). Could the Gargauthites have carved the temple into the sides of the crevasse itself? So that when the dwarves (or who ever) built the fortress and city on top of it, it may not have actually been ON TOP of it. At least not directly. I'm going to have to whip something up.
I still think it should have been a much older temple that was re-purposed by the Gargauthites. We have both the dwarves and the drow before them all over that region, in ancient times. Dozens of such Ilythiir sites have been found over the years, and re-used by al manner of beings for all sorts of purposes. Hmmmm... wasn't there a fallen archangel associated with the Ilythiir? What was his name again?
* I am picturing something like how the Stonewrought Dam looks in WoW - maybe the river did have a series of small 'drops' inside the ravine, and dwarves altered the course to flow out one or more giant 'mouths' carved into the clifface itself.
*EDIT:My bad, it actually shows the city just north of the river. I had drawn it on my maps on top of the river, because I thought it would be cooler to have the 'underground river' flowing through the city. It still can - it can be on both sides, but the official map clearly shows it next to the river but on the north side. Still, I picture the dwarves of the Great Rift - regardless if they had any interaction with Pelevaran - having 'bricked-up' the crevasse on that end and having the water flowing out of a (normally) sealed grating (and knowing dwarves, they would have made it fancy 'just because', so it probably does look like a head or something, like a gargoyle... and I am using that word PROPERLY, since the things most people refer to as 'gargoyles' on buildings are really grotesques. A proper gargoyle is nothing more then a disguised - usually as some sort of demonic being - rain/water spout, and in most cases is just a face)...
The face of Gargauth?
I like that picture of Petra. I'm picture both sides of the gorge that has the river shaar coming out as a waterfall having "caves" that are decorated like that along the walls, but not at ground level. They are actually high up on the wall, and the Pelevari had acqueducts running around their city. I actually like the idea of the acqueducts actually having carved faces or other things representatives of their gods as spouts as well.
I also don't necessarily see it as being just one waterfall. What if the river kind of splits in the rock and comes out along the gorge in 3 or 4 places. In fact, what if the Pelevari used the river to carve out sections of rock that they later moved into after diverting the river elsewhere. Thus, the cliff face could be honeycombed with small tunnels that have been smoothed by decades of running water.
On where is Gargauth's temple, from the description, it sounds like you'd enter one of the Cliffside entrances and then work your way INTO the earth of the Landrise until you find some big cave area that they used as a granary. This cave area may also have a connection maybe to the top of the landrise, because it would be easier to fill the granary via some tube leading down to it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 04:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I've kinda modified how I was picturing Pelevaran. I started working on drawing of it and wasn't happy with it so I nixed it... for now. The picture in my head is beautiful (AND utilitarian), but putting it on paper is hard, especially in three dimensions. Like I said before, like how Petra is built in the cliff-faces, but with even more of an artistic flourish (almost elven, with the way the water would be woven into the design).
Like a cross between RW Petra, and maybe THIS. (Although picture the cliff-face continuing on the right side as well - more 'closed in', and less 'green', maybe). Mostly I just like the idea of the water pouring out and down from the structure in a couple of spots (it is, after all, a giant 'cork'). I really need to draw it - I can't really find anything close.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Okoth and the Sarrukh... just NO. I have had it up to here (my hand is hovering just above the moon right now) with 'returned ancient dead empires'. I mean, at some point they must have just been taking the whole thing as a joke, right? "Hey, what if every single bad-guy were around at the same time?" Were there no adults in the room? I like the Sarrukh... and Imaskari... and Netherese... etc., etc., in the past, where they belong. Thats why The Realms have HISTORY. You kind of devalue all the kewlness when you are slapping people in the face with it.
Well, they've been there since 3.x. Not all that is wrong in the Realms was the blame of 4e, it seems.
Yeah, but they were HIDDEN. In fact, there were Khaasta in the area looking for them and couldn't find them (and they are supposed to be some very excellent cross-planer trackers/hunters). So they went from being very well hidden and liking it that way, to having the name of their kingdom slapped on (what appears to be) an in-setting map, in great big neon lights. Okay, maybe not neon...but you get the idea.
More like 'a few surviving Sarrukh', not a whole kingdom of them. that would be dumb.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Gargauth was a devil. He was an outcast devil. Asmodeus didn't like him no more. Basically, as I see it, he wanted to become a god to protect himself from Asmodeus (in addition to all the stuff that being a god offers).
But where does it say he is a devil? All I've seen him described as 'an infernal power'.
Sounds like where I WANT to go with Peleveran and what you're thinking are very similar. I picture the old Peleveran being mainly cliff side with waterfalls. In fact your picture with multiple waterfalls fits my idea, though I'm not picturing them all in parallel. I'm picturing maybe basically the gorge like a big U shape if seen from the top, with 2 waterfalls at the base of the U, and one on each side of the U. All drain to the bottom and leave as a river out of the top of the U. Around these waterfalls are caves that open into the landrise itself and go deep. Then there are ledges that you can use to exit along the Cliffside and walk from cave to cave. These ledges were probably also filled with planters for growing crops that can be grown without requiring a lot of space (i.e. cucumbers, watermelons, tomatoes, strawberries, grapes, whatever).
Now, in my red wizard revitalizing the city version... I'm also picturing them building a semi-large walled city on top of the gorge surrounding the U, and they drill wells that go into the underground river. They then use either magic or technology to draw the water up to the surface into pools for their citizens. Finally, at the bottom, they also build a city. This one is for the lesser citizens and many slaves who don't live with their masters reside here. Its not ramshackle, but its nowhere near as grand as the top or living along the cliff face. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 04:47:57
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On where is Gargauth labeled a devil
In Powers and Pantheon.
"Gargauth is also known as the Outcast, and ancient texts imply that Gargoth (as he was then known) was once a member of the august body known as the Lords of the Nine who rule the Nine-Layered Pit that is the plane of Baator and the baatezu who inhabit it."
It continues, saying its believe he challenged the Dark Lord of Nessus (aka Asmodeus) OR that he left of his own free will because Asmodeus destroyed his ally.
Now, of course, one can point out that some of the lords of the layers of Hell haven't necessarily been devils (such as the Hag Countess), but that's probably not the case. He probably is a devil. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 06:10:56
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Big difference between 'probably' and it says he is.
I prefer to keep our options open. After all, you're the one who drew my attention to him, and he is pretty damn cool, so making him 'just anther devil (even an archdevil) seems a bit anticlimactic. Even Grazzt has a more interesting story than that, and we don't even know his whole story. I picture him as something a bit 'above and beyond' a normal devil - some a bit more ancient (A Baatoran?)
I found a couple of other good pics, but nothing exactly what i am picturing in my head.
THIS ONE is from LotR, but its still a pretty good starting point (there's something similar in Naruto) - two huge statues with a river passing between them. Except for this, maybe a male and female statue, facing each other, with hands out-stretched and touching (which is hollow, so its actually a bridge to get from one side of the crevasse to the other).
A similar one with two statues (we're just missing the city/fortress.) LOL
Another One, also far from perfect, but it does have that 'wall look' I am going for.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 03:10:54 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 06:43:08
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I'm pretty sure THO confirmed at one point that Gargauth is a devil. Here's a quote from her (admittedly not the one I was thinking of, but it might have to do):
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One in Qs for Ed, 23/06/12
For that same low-profile reasons, I'm not certain which other archdevils and greater devils have been "active" in the home Realms campaign, although we've met Gargoth/Gargauth twice that I know of, and possibly more times when we didn't see through his disguise.
There has been some speculation that Gargauth plays both sides of the Blood War however, with some subtle encouragement from The Hooded One. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 28 Jul 2017 06:44:14 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 13:21:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Unfortunately, I feel a bit trapped. I feel like the only way to fix things so that they make sense is to hit the RSE button, and I loathe the RSE button, lol.
Don't see why you feel like you need to 'fix' things. Most of it were fixed in the Sundering. And others... well, we have to accept that stuff changed. And change is not a bad thing.
The Realms changed. A century of changes cannot be undone without damaging the setting. "Fixing things" would have even more less sense than the changes they did to the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, but they were HIDDEN. In fact, there were Khaasta in the area looking for them and couldn't find them (and they are supposed to be some very excellent cross-planer trackers/hunters). So they went from being very well hidden and liking it that way, to having the name of their kingdom slapped on (what appears to be) an in-setting map, in great big neon lights. Okay, maybe not neon...but you get the idea.
More like 'a few surviving Sarrukh', not a whole kingdom of them. that would be dumb.
That has not changed. They are still hidden. The changes in 4e is that the plot of 3.x with Pil'thi'lith was done. Pil'thi'lith and the followers of Set were killed, and a new council of sarrukh followers of Sseth (mostly made up by sarrukh of Chult) now rule the area.
The plot of the khaasta is not mentioned in 4e, but Okoth was still a 'ruin' and the sarrukh took great pains to make sure the rest of the Realms did not knew of their presence. Their "kingdom" was a handful of towns (4e only mentions Buldamar) near the shore of the lake Azulduth. Nothing more. The sarrukh, at much, dominated the area using their followers (werecrocodiles and the like), and not openly. That is the same thing they did in 3.x. Only a handful of sages knew about them and the knowledge wasn't a public one.
Dunno why they put the name of their kingdom in the map, though. Maybe they wanted that DMs would use them more, and so advertised them.
I like the Okhotian more than the Imaskari or the Netherese. They make the area more interesting and less "humanocentric" (if a I have a pet peeve with the Realms, is that, while having a lot of fantastic races around there, is too much "humanocentric"). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 13:33:28 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 16:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Big difference between 'probably' and it says he is.
I prefer to keep our options open. After all, you're the one who drew my attention to him, and he is pretty damn cool, so making him 'just anther devil (even an archdevil) seems a bit anticlimactic. Even Grazzt has a more interesting story than that, and we don't even know his whole story. I picture as something a bit 'above and beyond' a normal devil - some a bit more ancient (A Baatoran?)
I found a coupe of other good pics, but nothing exactl what i am picturing in my head.
THIS ONE is from LotR, but its still a pretty good starting point (there's something similar in Naruto) - two huge statues with a river passing between them. Except for this, maybe a male and female statue, facing each other, with hands out-stretched and touching (which is hollow, so its actually a bridge to get from one side of the crevasse to the other).
A similar one with two statues (we're just missing the city/fortress.) LOL
Another One, also far from perfect, but it does have that 'wall look' I am going for.
Thank you Markustay. You're pictures that you're finding are wonderful, and that image you pulled out of the air of the man and woman reach towards each other and forming a bridge is perfect. I'm picturing them both holding a metallic sculpture in the middle that's kind of like a brazier that has a hollow sculpture of curving metal meant to represent flames. Then maybe all over it there are numerous continual flame spells cast. Part of me thinks the continual flames should be different colors (red, yellow, blue, green, purple, kind of like a rainbow effect), but it might look better as blue, red, yellow, or green. Maybe some of these continual flames have started fading out.
Hmmm, the more you're showing me, the more I'm thinking that the two waterfalls at the end should in fact be at the end of the U but at the top. Its much prettier. Then I'm thinking that the "arms" of the U as it proceeds toward the western Shaar should actually RISE. Then about 1/3 of the way down the arms on each side there should be a smaller waterfall on each side, and these waterfalls should be decorated as you described with a face.
What the face looks like would depend on what we make the actual Pelevari civilization be like (because we actually know very little of their kingdom prior to Tuelhalva Drakewings showing up, going into their granary deep in the earth, and then spending like 17 years straight casting a ritual that freed Gargauth... taking over the kingdom... and then a month later .... DRAGONS!!!... kingdom dead). Part of me is thinking that it should be all about the Arkaiuns that inhabited Shandaular. However, what if there were other people there BEFORE the people of Shandaular showed up. Check my thoughts for me, but the Turami were in the Chondath area and displaced from Chessenta. Then there area also Shaaryan people. This very well could have started out as a Turami/Shaaryan kingdom and its just never really been well documented.... because let's face it the Shaar has never been well documented. I think later they would have started accepting in Arakaiun humans as well (which would have had both Nar and Illuskan influences), and maybe at THAT point was when the kingdom itself really started forming as the two cultures shared ideas. Meanwhile, many of the other Arkaiuns went south and formed Dambrath.
I'm not thinking this should be the millennia long kingdom/empire like what we've seen with Netheril, Jhaamdath, Imaskar, Unther, Mulhorand, etc... either. I'm thinking like 3 to 5 centuries old, maybe, and getting destroyed in 1018. So, I'm kind of picturing it forming let's say in the 600's DR. What do we know that was happening in that timeframe down in that area.
As far as cultures go, I'm kind of picturing it as a kingdom which raided Illythiiri ruins left on the surface. That would include demon summoning. Then the Nar background amongst the Arkaiun might also include similar summoning. However, I don't want to paint these people as absolutely dark demon worshippers.
As far at the surface goes above it, its important to note one thing. The area wasn't all Savannah. Eric Boyd's entry on Gargauth states in regard to Peleveran at its fall "Only a handful of ruins survive of that long-forgotten kingdom. What was once a tree-cloaked, fertile land is now barren, open, stony country". So, I'm kind of picturing the Chondalwood extending down to here, and probably between the dragons firing their cities and lumberjack work, its was burned and is now coming back as a Savannah in the 1300's. In the 1400's I'm seeing it as extremely fertile with Grumbar's blessing. So, the culture that's there may be big on growing trees and other plant life now. I've also pictured the red wizard culture that's there now being big on the elemental lords and elemental magic (in all fields, not just fire). This could extend into monks with elemental focus, etc...
Then having Zulkir Lauzoril Tavai of Enchantment and Aulkir Dmitra Flass of illusion and Nyasia Tavai, Thulkir of the Guild Arcane Spymasters of the Tharch of Peleveran.... I'm seeing this Tharch having a very heavy focus not on expansion by war, but expansion in the way Lauzoril always wanted it... spycraft. Also, given the idea that Gargauth is maybe trapped in his pit.... maybe there's also a lot of warlocks with a flair for deception and deal making. This could be the debate going on between the leaders of this Tharch. For instance, I also am talking about having Ythazz Buvarr as an Aulkir of Divination and I see him wanting to be more forceful, but he'll also be remote in Cimbar and Soorenar (speaking of which, I may have to have a concept for a sub-tharch... as in a collection of cities that aren't a Tharch on their own and are ruled by the council of mages and Tharchion of a nearby Tharch... each of these "sub-tharchs" would have maybe an autharch who can actually vote in the council on matters affecting the entire tharch as a whole).
For that matter, this small kingdom could very well have been very multicultural. We know that it stretched between Torsch, Hardcastle, and where Pelevari is. From "Prayers from the Faithful" we know that there's a great subterranean cavern complex named Vaerndoun made up of drow in a bunch of interconnected caves, many containing lakes, that stretch in a northeast/southwest line for OVER a hundred miles with the midpoint deep beneath Torsch. Maybe the same river that feeds to Pelevari has a spur that heads more northerly and feeds these various lakes. Maybe the caves that filled the cliff face of the gorge actually have one tunnel that extends into the underdark and the Pelevari used to trade with these drow. I can definitely see the Pelevari trading food for metals and gems and magic. I can also see them enslaving tribal gnolls, wemics, thri-kreen, hybsil, centaurs, kenku, minotaurs, orcs and goblinoids, cat folk, etc... and trading them to the drow. However, I can also see them having a decent relationship maybe with some centaur, hybsil, wemic tribes and maybe even the dwarves and some of the wood elves in the region. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 16:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I like the Okhotian more than the Imaskari or the Netherese. They make the area more interesting and less "humanocentric" (if a I have a pet peeve with the Realms, is that, while having a lot of fantastic races around there, is too much "humanocentric").
You might like my take on Katashaka. I've got a ton of animal humanoids, and only in the past century when the red wizards showed up while on Abeir, humans were unknown for millennia (many of the humans left long ago for Chult, and some of them turned into the cat folk known as Tabaxi). I've also got a small Kara-Turan culture that crashed during the spellplague and has a few villages in the jungle as well, but they've been somewhat isolated most of the last century and only in the last decade actually have the red wizards and these Kara-Turans actually met up. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2017 : 18:57:00
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So I've hit upon a solution (which I ashamedly have to admit should have occurred to me sooner) - I can't use my continental map to make a 5e (with Spellplague!) map. Thats like trying to go from '1' to '3' and ignoring '2'.
I have to actually create a 4e-era map (*UGH!*), and then superimpose the two to get something that makes sense. I need THREE separate maps, and probably have to show all three maps together, so people can understand the transitions. Imagine that - I manage to make it all the way through 4e without having to do a single 4e-era map, and now that 5e is here, I need to make one.
And the reason I have to do that is because the existing 4e maps (what little we have) are based off the 3e map, with the twisted, shrunken terrain, and there is no way to make that work without first interpreting the 4e terrain onto the 1e/2e (and now 5e) continent layout. Hopefully it won't take me long, since I am using my now-complete (at least in this region) continental map as a base to make the next two.
The one caveat here is that we have to just ignore that one, throw-away sentence about 'lands growing' (for the most part) and just consider the 3e maps WRONG (which means the 4e maps were also wrong, being based off them, but fortunately there weren't really a whole lot of those to matter). I am just going to assume the 'moving lands' line was aimed at the chaos caused by the spellplague and all the geography-swapping going on with Abeir, and NOT having anything to do with the warped 3e maps.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I like the Okhotian more than the Imaskari or the Netherese. They make the area more interesting and less "humanocentric" (if a I have a pet peeve with the Realms, is that, while having a lot of fantastic races around there, is too much "humanocentric").
You might like my take on Katashaka. I've got a ton of animal humanoids, and only in the past century when the red wizards showed up while on Abeir, humans were unknown for millennia (many of the humans left long ago for Chult, and some of them turned into the cat folk known as Tabaxi). I've also got a small Kara-Turan culture that crashed during the spellplague and has a few villages in the jungle as well, but they've been somewhat isolated most of the last century and only in the last decade actually have the red wizards and these Kara-Turans actually met up.
Personally (IMG) I've swapped-out Katashaka for Xendrik. I did replace it with Nyambe at one time, but then found Nyambe to be rather boring (a well made product, but nothing in it felt 'special' - just a fantasy version of Africa). Besides, now that FR IS D&D, its about time we stole something from Eberron! 
Of course, in my Misbegotten Realms I've blended it all together with Mwangi from PF/Golarion. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jul 2017 02:07:26 |
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Post-Sundering Old Empires... and the God-kings.
