| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2012 : 20:28:44
|
Now what im going to theorise may be entirely incorrect based on my faulty memory, which is why i trust to the skills of you learned scribes to set me straight.
My memory recalls an entry in an old AD&D book, maybe a campaign setting book that talks about the Sundering and how it wiped out a civilisation that whose survivors became the doppelgangers and other shapeshifters.
Now im sure i also remember that the batrachi are actually the ancestors to the doppelgangers and bullywugs, and other shapeshifting and amphibioid creatures.
I also recall that the Sundering after being performed by the elves stretched backwards and forwards in the mists of time.
So bringing all these (possibly misremembered) pieces of information i propose the following theories.
1 - The Sarrukh were not the first of the creator races to dominate the planet. Much like a mirror of our planet the first creatures to travel on the land would have been amphibious in nature that first ventured into the shallows and developed the ability to breath on land and in the sea. They then grew to dominate much of the coastal areas of great continent of (i cant remember the name of what it is called in Abeir-Toril), and built a vast civilisation that stretch along the coast and even into the ocean (as they are amphibious). Eventually they would have declined and been eclipsed by the reptilian race (much like our planet). However the elves foolishly cast their epic spell that stretched back in time and annihilated the Batrachi empire. (except for the small outposts of Batrachi that had moved inland and settled as it shows in Lost Empires of Faerun) (if there were alternate dimensions and timelines this would be a point where it occurs).
So the consequences of this are such that the Sarrukh came to dominate the planet and their empire became much greater than it would have been had they the Batrachi empire to contend with, and giving us the current timeline we have now.
2 - Now this one is a bit of extrapolation based on monster abilities and other history but one would expect that the order of evolution from Batrachi to Doppelganger would be "Batrachi>Greater Doppelganger>Doppelganger. Now since doppelgangers are generally associated with Illithids and their Druuths and since Greater Doppelgangers are in Monsters of Faerun so they could be assumed to be Faerun only. How about if the Batrachi retreated into a magical hibernation to survive the climate change that brought about the fall of their empire. This would probably be deep in the earth for safety and warmth (certainly on earth deep underground can get incredibly hot the deeper you go).
Now what if after the Illithids arrived on Faerun (i think near Shanatar) they discovered some hibernating Batrachi deep underground and began experimenting (they are good with grafts and other wierd so i imagine them getting involved in a bit of advanced genetics). So take a bit of doppelganger, a bit of Batrachi, add in a bit of illithids (explains their brain eating ability) and viola you have a greater doppelganger, which after enough tries breeds true, and possibly explains why there are so few greater doppelgangers encountered/mentioned.
3 - The next question is how far back in the mists of time did the Sundering stretch. If my memory recalled correctly and it annihilated a civilisation surely this means that it did happen, not that it was always so. If that is the case then there must have been a time frame involved in the casting.
So the ice age ended 37,000 so before that the ice was retreating and Batrachi were colonising the coast. The Sundering was cast in 17600. Now im just theorising here and it cant be exact in timings but if the casting stretched back from 17,600 to around 37,000 and annihilated the fledgling batrachi empire it must also have stretched forward in time a similar amount (high magic being full of unintended consequences, this spell maybe doubly so). Now my maths isnt brilliant but i get a rough date of the Sundering lasting until 1,800 DR. At which point the island of Evermeet comes rushing back to meet the continent of Faerun with devastating consequences.
Now since there is no exact dates involved because im just making it up and in 1385 DR Mystra dies, and i think Evermeet disappears (not a big fan of 4E history but i like writing my own explanation for events), what if the spell runs out 1385 DR and Evermeet comes rushing back and smashes into the Chultan Peninsula (which i also think suffers some damage and large portions disappear. A crash of that magnitude could also cause the collapse of portions of the Underdark (like the great rift) and the tsunami that inevitably occurs would also alter the coastline in any way you want (which i think also happens in 4E).
Anyway just a few random musings, i realise they are a bit outlandish but what do people think, and more importantly was my memory at all correct, i am trying to recall stuff i read more than 15 years ago from books i no longer possess
|
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2012 : 07:52:39
|
Sort of. Toril was originally more of a water world, and the oceans teemed with aquatic life. The aquatic creator race was the first (that we know of) creator race to arise in power beneath the waves. They were originally an octopoid race, progenitors of the Tako, the blue-ringed octopus, and other octopoid races. They had a natural ability to change the color of their skin and mimic shapes (as do some real-life octopuses and squid -- see this video of the mimic octopus here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LTWFnGmeg) And in fact, their language was not based on sound but by the flashing and changing of colored patterns on their skin.
At some point, Toril's sun was swallowed by Dendar and the world grew cold and icy and covered in ice. But the aquatic creator race still thrived beneath the waves.
After millennia, the ice thawed, and when it receded, new land was exposed possibly due to a concentration of ice at the polar ice caps lowering water levels enough to expose land that had been previously covered in seas. Or possibly due to the effects of the Sundering extending backwards in time shifting continental plates.
The Sarrukh arose to prominence on the land. Humans and Aearee were around too in the Days of Thunder, but they were more primitive and uncivilized.
Down in the oceans a new religion took hold. Ramenos gained cult status, and then through shear charisma, might, and audacity his religion spread like wildfire through the communities of the octopoid creator race. Ramenos harried their pantheon, called the Great School in their aquatic heaven of the Fated Depths, and devoured them in great gulps. Ramenos used this power to fuel a metamorphosis, transforming his followers into the Batrachi, now a frog-like amphibian race, they could rise above the waves and conquor the land. There remained a few of the octopoid in the oceans, those that had not converted to Ramenos.
Some of them were the ancestors of the Tako and the blue-ringed octopuses. Oddly, the Tako were followers of an aquatic version of one-eyed Talos (aka Bhaelros, Kozah, Gruumsh). He was not known by his human name or face beneath the waves. The Tako saw him as a one-eyed octopus, but he was still a god of storms and tempests and destruction. During the Batrachi metamorphosis, Talos protected his worshipers from changing, countering and destroying the epic magic just as it began to warp the flesh of his followers. But in the aftermath of the change, the Tako race lost their second eye, and ever after had only just the one eye, just like their patron Talos.
There were other factions of octopoids that also mangaged to avoid the change, and they survive to this day in the seas and oceans. But one group felt a keen loss and regret at having forsaken the change, and much later attempted to settle the world above. This group became the doppelgangers. They managed to perfect their shapechanging to the point of being able to walk on land in the guise of humans, but their true form resembles more their octopoid forebears. Another theory holds that the doppelgangers were bred from octopoid stock but warped by the Aboleth using pseudonatural energies to create spies and servitors that could walk upon the land and infiltrate other races on behalf of the Aboleth.
There is even one group of Batrachi who tried to switch back. A group of good-aligned Batrachi, suffering from the guilt of the great catastrophe perpetrated by the Batrachi race in summoning the dragon-god Asgorath to pull an ice-moon down from the sky upon their enemies the giants (thereby causing the cataclysm known as Tearfall and also bringing dragons into the world) undertook an epic ritual to change their race back into their octopoid forms and return to a peaceful life beneath the waves. The ritual failed, however, leaving them trapped, only partially changed, into a half-humanoid/half-ocotopoid form. This group was known as the Zoveri. They eventually retreated to the Astral plane and settled in the silver sea that washes the shore of Mount Celestia (later known as the House of the Triad).
Now as to the Sundering, this spell was cast in -17600 DR, but the effects of it rippled backwards through time, rearranging the continental plates in such a manner that the supercontinent was shattered, but not so swiftly that the world was turn in half and everyone killed. The pressures on the continental plates were ameliorated by this dispersement through time so that the earthquakes and volcanic erruptions were spread out over millennia. How far back did the Sundering extend? If you believe as Faerūn's top sages do that Toril is only about 70,000 years old (give or take) then the Sundering may extend as far back as that. If you believe that Toril has a more terrestrial history similar to Earth, it has been proposed that the effects of the Sundering extended backwards perhaps even millions of years to effect the continental drift patterns that resulted in the current configuration. And, as mentioned above, may even have been responsible for raising land up above the surface of a formerly oceanic world.
Note that it is thought that the LeShay are the missing/hidden fey creator race. In their entry in the Epic Handbook it is mentioned that they are the survivors of a catastrophe that wiped out their existence in a former universe. Current thinking is that it was indeed the Sundering that altered their timeline and wiped out most of their great civilization leaving only a few survivors that had escaped into the Feywild.
As for the Sundering's forward ripples in time, it seems likely that they would echo forward at least as much as they traveled backwards through time. So there's a good chance that the effects of the Sundering have still not dissipated but may continue to have some subtle effects (and perhaps periodically dramatic effects) for some millennia yet to come. |
 |
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
|
|
Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 17:42:06
|
| Very cool. Lot of good lore here I wasnt aware of |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 19:33:26
|
Grey is a smart one!
I've had an argument recently with a friend that the very thing that kept Mystra from detecting the coming of the Spellplague was in fact the Sundering rippling through the future and hiding Cyric from her.
Just a thought... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 20:09:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Grey is a smart one!
I've had an argument recently with a friend that the very thing that kept Mystra from detecting the coming of the Spellplague was in fact the Sundering rippling through the future and hiding Cyric from her.
Just a thought...
I suggested using the Karsestone for that, myself. Inspired by Venom/Spider-Man, my thinking is that part of a former deity of magic could be used to hide from the current deity of magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 20:20:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Grey is a smart one!
I've had an argument recently with a friend that the very thing that kept Mystra from detecting the coming of the Spellplague was in fact the Sundering rippling through the future and hiding Cyric from her.
Just a thought...
I suggested using the Karsestone for that, myself. Inspired by Venom/Spider-Man, my thinking is that part of a former deity of magic could be used to hide from the current deity of magic.
I like that one too!
Perhaps it was both...Shar somehow knew when the "time was right" to sneak in, and having the Karsestone Cyric was able to not only sneak in hidden...but also breach her defenses with her "own" magic. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 21:19:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Grey is a smart one!
I've had an argument recently with a friend that the very thing that kept Mystra from detecting the coming of the Spellplague was in fact the Sundering rippling through the future and hiding Cyric from her.
Just a thought...
I suggested using the Karsestone for that, myself. Inspired by Venom/Spider-Man, my thinking is that part of a former deity of magic could be used to hide from the current deity of magic.
I like that one too!
Perhaps it was both...Shar somehow knew when the "time was right" to sneak in, and having the Karsestone Cyric was able to not only sneak in hidden...but also breach her defenses with her "own" magic.
In my alt version of the death of Mystra, it was a combination of the Karsestone and Shar's cloaking magic that hid Cyric... Of course, this and the fact that Shar was keeping an eye on things, hoping to snag Mystra's power for herself, caused an unexpected result: when Mystra went BOOM!, some of the force of the explosion was channeled back to Shar, hurting and weakening her to the point that she lost control of the Shadow Weave, and Mask was able to solidify his grasp on the shadow portfolio. I came up with that because I like Mask, dislike Shar's prominence in the Realms of the last 10 years, and wanted to actually have the prophesied "coming weakness of Shar" that the 3E supermodules introduced and which was conveniently ignored for 4E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2012 : 15:15:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
1 - The Sarrukh were not the first of the creator races to dominate the planet. <snip>
In my own musings on the Creator-Races (The Creatori), the Sarrukh are merely one branch of the Sauroid Creator race. The Saurials would be the 'lost branches' (at least one group of Saurials is native to Toril, living in Malatra). Combining this with the new Abeir material, that would mean the 'Saurial Home-World' is really just a continent on Abeir (which actually fits perfectly, giving some of what we know about Abeir, and its 'draconic' leanings).
As for the Batarachi and some of what you say - I think all five Creatori developed some method of adaption to try and survive during the 'Years of darkness'. The Batrachi became shifters, the Sarrukh became genetic manipulators, the Aeerie moved their entire civilization around to avoid the worst of it, the Fey separated their spirits from their physical forms, and the humans... well... they just learned to adapt to anything thrown at them.
I also think that the five races were 'sponsored' by groups of primordials - one for each element (including the fabled 'Fifth Element', composed of equal parts of the other four). There is also a sixth element - or rather, a non-element - void. These forces were in competition to see which of their creatures were best suited to become "the Race of Destiny".
The Creatori also weren't the first attempt - their were the Giants (Jotunbrūd) and the Dragons, representing the elements and the energies. I'm not talking about terrestrial giants and dragons - I am talking about the original, Celestial ones. The ones we are most familiar with are pale shadows of what those races once were.
Void (entropy) works toward the failure of all these races. Just more of my theories, nothing canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2012 : 19:36:22
|
I think folks tend to overestimate the significance of the creator races. The term "creator race" is simply an elven designation (Iqua-Tel'Quessir) given by elven scholars to the 5 native races that have had major empires since the days of Thunder. The only qualification required to be a creator race is that the race be native to Toril (which excludes elves and dwarves because they immigrated) and have been mighty at some point. Actually, the only real qualification is that a race be deemed worthy of the title by elven sages. And even they can't agree, because sometimes they include dragons in the mix and sometimes not.
I wonder if there may be one or two other civilizations that escaped elven notice who have not received proper credit for their might or grandeur?
For instance, I am intrigued with the notion that there may have been a surface-dwelling race of furry humanoids during the ice age(s) that had a great civilization of which nothing is remembered today. The modern descendants of this race are the debased yeti, the taer, and the alaghi, and the vaporighu. I am fond of the idea that these creatures are the devolved and barbarous descendants of a more refined and civilized race that lived in grand citadels carved from the ice during the frozen epoch before the Days of Thunder. A race beaten low by the receding ice, reduced to madness by the heat of the returning sun that melted their cities and killed all but the most hardy and brutal folk that did not succumb to fever and starvation.
I once wrote the following piece as an adventure seed for planar adventures in the Forgotten Realms cosmology. It takes a stab at explaining the origins of the vaporighu:
No one remembers the great yeti empire that once stretched from the farthest shores of Kara-Tur across the northern climbs to the Reghed Glacier of Faerun. Arisen to preeminence in the dawn of pre-history before the creator races, they were a magic poor society that later fell to barbarism and the Sarrukh dinner plate. All that is left of this once awesome nation are the savage, cannibal yeti that haunt the cold places of Toril and the pitiable Taer of the Unapproachable East, sad shadows of an empire lost to time.
Their once great pantheon, the Morgruihr Nazhedeen, were a formidable and terrible presence across the planes--now remembered as only a faint racial memory in the nightmares of children. The homeplane of the yeti gods has long since slipped beyond the Astral, and yet their devolved descendents, the vaporighu, who in bygone eras were a powerful planar race as numerous as demons or devils, still maintain a feeble subsistence on the fiendish planes.
There exists yet a sole vaporighu metropolis on the Barrens of Doom and Despair, in a distant cold region beyond Loviatar's realm. The city of Muirsh Anjuur posesses a startling beauty. Square fortresses, palaces and lofty pagodas--dingy remnants of ancient glory--are carved, tibetan style, into the stone of the slopes of steep moutains. The city sprawls through a small valley nestled snugly between parallel mountain ranges. Although seemingly savage and brutish when encountered elsewhere on the planes, in the city of Muirsh Anjuur the vaporighu adhere to an elaborate protocol of courtesy and deference to a rigid caste system run by warlords and mandarins.
Though not a burgeoning economy, the city remains a power due to the existence of several ancient portals which link the Barrens with the Abyss, the 9 Hells, the plane of Deep Caverns and the House of Nature. They are thus a nexus for the soul trade, selling larvae to the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. They also trade with hags and khaasta.
Vaporighu are known for their hidecrafters--artisans who make clothing, hide armor, and other works of great beauty from exotic pelts, dragon hides and the skins of humanoids. They also have a strong tradition of skilled alchemists who create exotic elixirs and potions which have powerful effects never before seen by human adventurers.
The city contains several ancient portals which connect with remote mountainous locations in the Reghed and Great Glaciers, and various northern mountain ranges across Faerun, the Hordelands and Kara-Tur. Though used rarely, these portals are accessed on occasion by certain fiends to travel to the Realms, and by certain vaporighu hidecrafters requiring raw materials for their "art." |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Batrachi Origins and the Sundering
