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 Are Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul dead?
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Regar Khorvaen
Seeker

Spain
21 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2019 :  21:51:48  Show Profile Send Regar Khorvaen a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello everybody,
This post has some SPOILERS about Baldur's Gate descent to Avernus campaign.

Acording to the Sword Coast campaig book, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (BBM) are reported as living gods. With churches et all.
But in Baldur's gate campaign BBM are reported as the Dead Three. Apparently they were killed during the TIme of Troubles as a punishment for betraying mega-god Ao.
SO... What's their official status? Dead? Alive? Not-quite-so?

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3905 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2019 :  21:58:33  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As of the newest edition of the game they are officially alive again.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1446 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2019 :  22:24:30  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They are all alive and well. They all had contingency plans to revive, and all have used them (Bane earlier than the others).

However, currently they are not gods, just demigods. Seems they voluntarily gave up true godhood to be able to influence the mortal world (as Ao decreed no full gods can influence the world after the Second Sundering).

As for the Dead Three thing, that's their nickname. They have always used it.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Dec 2019 22:26:44
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sleyvas
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USA
8493 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2019 :  22:44:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
clarification, that's their nickname after they died in the ToT.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
716 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2019 :  22:48:20  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought they gave up a large part of their divinity so that they could directly interfere in the fate of mankind without repercussions from Ao?

Edit;: Zeromaru beet me to it - sorry!

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Edited by - Seethyr on 12 Dec 2019 22:49:14
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LordofBones
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1005 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  13:02:29  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane returned in 3.5e.

The whole 'directly interfere with mankind' thing is kind of odd though. The most meddling Myrkul did as a god was appear beside open graves to troll mourners.

Really, when I think "meddles with mortals", the Dark Three don't exactly spring to mind. Mucking about on the Prime is Mystra's shtick, not Bane's.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
32658 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  16:20:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Bane returned in 3.5e.

The whole 'directly interfere with mankind' thing is kind of odd though. The most meddling Myrkul did as a god was appear beside open graves to troll mourners.

Really, when I think "meddles with mortals", the Dark Three don't exactly spring to mind. Mucking about on the Prime is Mystra's shtick, not Bane's.



Mystra didn't directly interfere with mortals. Her Chosen did.

Really, I don't get that whole "directly interfere with mankind" thing -- that really wasn't a gig any deity did. Given how nonsensical the whole thing is, I have to wonder if this is another one of WotC's "let's change something while not changing it, to keep everyone happy!" things.

It doesn't make sense for Bane to weaken himself to do something he never did before... So it's like WotC is trying to make them non-deities without killing them, thus keeping fans of the Dead Three happy while giving something to people -- like myself -- who preferred that the Dead Three stay dead. Like so much else since they launched 5E, they're going through all sorts of contortions to try to keep everything ambiguous so they don't alienate one side or another.

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Dalor Darden
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USA
3905 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  16:44:59  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally liked the gods of the 1e AD&D Forgotten Realms and hated it when they killed off Bane and friends to be replaced by Cyric.

I mean, if Torm got to come back because he was "doing his job" by being a protector, then why didn't Bane get to come back immediately because he was "doing his job" by trying to become the ultimate tyrant?

Never made any sense to me...and even less now that I can look back on it with more experienced eyes.

Not that I have to worry about it...I haven't run a game in quite a while that got past the 1350s DR...

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1446 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  17:08:57  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
AFAIK, the demigod thing has something to do with the new Baldur's Gate videogame. Perhaps they wanted killable gods or something.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  17:34:18  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I personally liked the gods of the 1e AD&D Forgotten Realms and hated it when they killed off Bane and friends to be replaced by Cyric.

I mean, if Torm got to come back because he was "doing his job" by being a protector, then why didn't Bane get to come back immediately because he was "doing his job" by trying to become the ultimate tyrant?

Never made any sense to me...and even less now that I can look back on it with more experienced eyes.

Not that I have to worry about it...I haven't run a game in quite a while that got past the 1350s DR...


Bane was killed because he stole the Tablets...
At least I see ToT as godhunt on those two/three who created the problem. If somebody else got killed...bad and if he was useful he could get revived by Ao. In my game perpetrators were Bhaal and Myrkul so Bane was allowed to be revived (later) as well. Those two were exchanged for Cyric and Kelemvor.

For me personaly ToT was only a last thread of the problem that caused Ao to change the rules of godhood - gods deviated from their portfolios and manipulated worshipers instead of supporting them.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  18:54:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Regar Khorvaen

Hello everybody,
This post has some SPOILERS about Baldur's Gate descent to Avernus campaign.

Acording to the Sword Coast campaig book, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (BBM) are reported as living gods. With churches et all.
But in Baldur's gate campaign BBM are reported as the Dead Three. Apparently they were killed during the TIme of Troubles as a punishment for betraying mega-god Ao.
SO... What's their official status? Dead? Alive? Not-quite-so?



They're alive and demigods. The Dead Three is just a titloe they were given after they died in the ToT. They've returned since then (Bane in 1372; Myrkul and Bhaal during the Second Sundering, about one century later).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  19:46:42  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3905 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  19:49:56  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT.



I haven’t found a single thing that refers to them as the Dead Three until after the ToT.

Where did you find a reference prior to the ToT?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32658 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  20:26:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT.



Bane has nothing to do with death.

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  21:32:18  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is all based on old story about how they became gods. One example is in Faiths&Avatars p.37 and Dead Three is because they took Jergal's reign over death.
Bane rule the living as ultimate tyrant, Myrkul rule dead and Bhaal rule over death (in between them).
I am not sure where was first use of this term "Dead Three" but this story (in game) is much older than ToT (about -200 DR).
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8493 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2019 :  22:34:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

Dead Three is title they have since they ascended to rule over death. That have nothing to do with ToT.



That's just wrong. The Dead Three was something that started in Forgotten Realms Adventures I do believe. It was post ToT.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Dec 2019 22:35:46
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
203 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  00:45:58  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dead Three name is like The Three Amigos, or K.I.S.S., or Legion of Doom.

On their current status, the explanation that I'm pushing is that the Dead Three are manifesting avatars in the form of mortal demigod-like beings, but maintain higher deity ranks outside of the mortal realms of Realmspace (FR setting's solar system).

Avatars don't have to be super strong and their power levels can be varied at the will of the deities projecting them.

That would square up their presence as demigods in the mortal realms being a choice, as well as Mystra's appearance in a post-Second Sundering novel; Ao making a decree that the gods are only allowed to send a single mortal demigod avatar into Realmspace at any given time, to minimize their meddling in the affairs of mortals and protect the Cosmic Balance of Realmspace from being disrupted when opposing gods inevitably clash.




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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
224 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  01:40:25  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I personally liked the gods of the 1e AD&D Forgotten Realms and hated it when they killed off Bane and friends to be replaced by Cyric.




Agreed. Cyric the human was detestable, annoying, and so poorly written and frustrating to read (from the Avatar Trilogy) that it just makes one puke a little in their mouth realizing he just came into so much power.

However, I looked on the interesting angles it did create- the,um, *strife* in the Bane church; convert to Cyric? Leave for another? Face death from Cyricists for their dead guy, or go along with it?

Add in the Baneson Xvim, and then we start getting church persecution and warfare, with the Keep stuck in the middle of all the machinations of the 3 groups.

Then Bane is back? Cyric's Book is read, destroying so much? I loved those campaign ideas and pivotal points.

Cyric still sucks though. ;)
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1005 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  02:14:12  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The point stands that godly meddling on the scale of avatar manifestations is unheard of in the post-2e Realms. The most was Bane being called by Szass, and even then he was just mildly annoyed.

The designers are trying to fix a problem that's nonexistent.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32658 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  05:10:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The designers are trying to fix a problem that's nonexistent.



And sadly, this is not a new thing for them.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Regar Khorvaen
Seeker

Spain
21 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  10:32:36  Show Profile Send Regar Khorvaen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

They are all alive and well. They all had contingency plans to revive, and all have used them (Bane earlier than the others).

However, currently they are not gods, just demigods. Seems they voluntarily gave up true godhood to be able to influence the mortal world (as Ao decreed no full gods can influence the world after the Second Sundering).




They can't influence... What that means, exactly? They can have priests or murder cults but they can't send avatars? Something like that.
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Regar Khorvaen
Seeker

Spain
21 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  10:37:48  Show Profile Send Regar Khorvaen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

It is all based on old story about how they became gods. One example is in Faiths&Avatars p.37 and Dead Three is because they took Jergal's reign over death.
Bane rule the living as ultimate tyrant, Myrkul rule dead and Bhaal rule over death (in between them).
I am not sure where was first use of this term "Dead Three" but this story (in game) is much older than ToT (about -200 DR).

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Regar Khorvaen
Seeker

Spain
21 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2019 :  10:43:06  Show Profile Send Regar Khorvaen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks everybody for answering!
Glad to know my three favourite evil gods are back into the fray.
So as demigods, linked to Faerun, they are currently living in material forms? I think that needs some explanation.
Personaly I liked Cyric aproach. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". I think having the powerful Banite church having so many cisms was an inspired angle. It allowed to mix the players into the fray and even make interesting bed partners. Like helping the ortodox side to fight the reformist side while you persuaded the Mulmaster followers to stab the Zhentil Keep friends...

I read in Sword Coast guide that a Bhaalspawn appeared in Baldur's Gate.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1005 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  03:30:58  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My advice is just to ignore the whole "the Dead Three are mortal avatars" and headcanon that Bane and his bros for life are still true divinities.
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The_Silversword
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USA
40 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  15:07:08  Show Profile  Send The_Silversword an AOL message Send The_Silversword a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally like the direction theyre taking the gods in 5e, the gods should be a total enigma for most mortals. Mortals should never be aware that god a is really just a manifestation of god b, or that this god killed that god, at best gods should be giving vague visions or the like. IMHO

I survived the Great OTTer Purge of 2013 and all I got was this stupid sig.
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Irennan
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Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2019 :  17:29:33  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^^^They're only claiming to be using this approach, but they don't hesitate to make gods appear in person, or still meddle in everything. This Bhaal/Myrkul/Bane thing is an example. So is Sernett spelling out that Lathander and Amaunator are different entities now, each taking a life on their own, so is Lolth still appearing in person in nvoels and stuff, or Mystra, or Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, or the Azuth plotline, with Asmodeus, Enlil and Azuth himelf not being just a total enigma. Of coure, the Mask one as well, and Tiamat and... I'm sure there are some I haven't thought of.

I think that there should be a midway between "gods do nothing ever except sending vague signs, and might as well not exist--aka Eberron's take on Religion" and "gods come down to drink cofee with people". Gods should have their own goals and motivations and M.O., and they should be involved, to a degree (it can't be otherwise, if they have a goal. What's the point of just sending enigmatic tuff if you want something done?) I also think gods should be definite entities, so their disappearance(and reapparance) should be felt by mortals. In the Sundering, it definitely was, on many levels, for many gods.

Beides the close relationhop between certain god and their followers is definitely a cool aspect, and shouldn't just go away.

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Edited by - Irennan on 15 Dec 2019 17:39:41
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