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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  04:40:11  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
According to "Magic of Faerun", the Weave is not present beyond the Material Plane of Toril. It is only in Toril where one needs the Weave to safely access and shape magic to work as intended.

My question is has there been any precedent where a magic user discovered, or was researching, a method of casting spells safely WITHOUT having to rely on the Weave (or the Shadow Weave)? If so, what details are known.

I have a player with a sun elf wizard who is traveling the world and is consumed in magical research to discover a means to use magic without relying on the Weave/Shadow Weave. I am curious on whether this has been discovered or done in Realmslore first, before I plan to make up the rest myself.

Appreciate any help given :D

Kentinal
Great Reader

4275 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  04:47:36  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, there are unnamed magics in the Realms, also totem magic, rune magic and a few others. The Weave simple was the easiest to use so most use that as a focus. Some of the ask Ed has spoke some about the other magics. I am not sure how much is in print, however it might be High Elven Magic does not require the Weave, though likely used it as a shortcut.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6197 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2014 :  22:47:28  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Candlekeep search genie can retrieve many scrolls in which the Weave has been defined, discussed, and debated in great detail.

There are several magical disciplines/traditions in the Realms which do not require any Weaves. Elven High Magic is a fine example.

Its unclear whether wizards hailing from other worlds/planes draw from the Weave when using their magics in the Realms. Realmslore has never really attempted to answer this, although a few magic-using characters with exotic origins are sometimes featured in FR fiction - unfortunately, they tend to be extraordinary individuals who are not representative of ordinary magic-users. I would apply When-in-Rome logic, that is, magic (of any type) in the Realms is governed by Mystra and her Weave, just as death (of any type) in the Realms is governed by Jergal/Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor/etc, its just part of the properties of the place, not unlike how extraplanar places each have unique rules and properties of their own.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2014 :  15:24:40  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I remember Ghuls cast spells based on a link with the Negative Material plane.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2014 :  23:52:04  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rune Magic looks like it does use the Weave. I also thought Elven High Magic was another. Because when you read those entries, it doesn't say they don't require the Weave.

So, say someone pisses Mystra off and she blocks access to their magic. A spellcaster could take up Runecasting and be able to use their magic via that route then?
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6197 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2014 :  02:37:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elven High Mages can use their Elven High Magic unimpeded by Weave-failure conditions. Their permanent magics - things like Mythals and Moonblades - also continue to function during Mystras interregna and beyond. Some sources claim that such magics are also unaffected by dead-magic and wild-magic zones (malfunctioning zones or holes in the Weave), although admittedly canon of these last claims is dubious. Nonetheless, this all strongly suggests that Elven High Magic is not Weave-dependant.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1111 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2014 :  05:08:26  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was an article in Dragon Magazine that suggested that elven magic was sort of separate from normal magic in the Realms. It was very vague on the details as I recall. Can't really look it up right now though.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2014 :  04:08:50  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Other than Elven High Magic not requiring the Weave, what other possibilities are there?
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1807 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2014 :  04:57:15  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DM prerogative.

It's probably not in Realmslore, but I've thought about taking oddball kits and prestige classes and declaring that they access magic through a means other than the Weave.

Blood magus, from Tome and Blood, is one example. Using your own blood to fuel spells... not a typical means of accessing magic. Also from T&B, the alienist could bypass the Weave.

If you use the Book of Vile Darkness, malign sites and sacrifices --as well as the Disciple and Thrall prestige classes-- offer other opportunities to get around the Weave. They don't have to, but they can.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I think curses should be independent of the Weave. Not the bestow curse spell, but the voodoo type of curse that someone without apparent spellcasting power can sometimes lay upon an entire family for multiple generations. Stuff that wouldn't work using the standard "rules" of spell design and balance.

Anyway, I know you're looking for precedents in Realmslore, and I don't have any of those. It's an interesting topic, though.
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Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
712 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2014 :  15:18:04  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed it is. The examples given sound to me more like different ways of channeling the Weave as opposed to bypassing it altogether to access another raw source of magic that is not reliant on the Weave.

Basically, what sort of magic would not be affected in a Wild Magic or Dead Magic zone? The Shadow Weave is affected by neither, for example. I would propose this on the Ask Ed thread, but the guy is so busy I dunno when he'll ever get the chance to answer. I don't think he's yet to answer a few questions I've asked a couple years ago LOL
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1807 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2014 :  17:53:57  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I get what you're going for. I envision the alienist and disciple/thrall prestige classes as drawing power from other planes. Casting spells in a magic-dead zone is fairly dramatic, and it's quite possible that the designers didn't intend to allow any prestige classes to do that. I'm just saying a rational case can be made favoring it. These classes are at least tainted by other planes, and I don't see a game-rending problem with allowing them to bypass the Weave entirely. The ability to cast magic in a magic-dead/wild zone could be balanced by being unable to cast spells whenever you're denied access to other planes. Just my take, obviously.

There are plenty of other systems of magic which have probably only been omitted from Realms books for incidental (or legal) reasons. Incarnum is "certainly suitable for the Realms" according to Ed last year (source) and he says in the same post that there are dozens of other methods of spellcasting in the Realms. Any of these might not depend on the Weave.

Also: asking Ed about something specific might take less time (and thus get a quicker answer) than the general question of how someone might cast magic without using either the Weave or the Shadow Weave.

Good luck.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1807 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2014 :  17:59:41  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Elven High Mages can use their Elven High Magic unimpeded by Weave-failure conditions. Their permanent magics - things like Mythals and Moonblades - also continue to function during Mystras interregna and beyond.


I was under the impression that mythals deteriorated when the local Weave became weak/unstable, and that being separated from the Weave would spell the end of a mythal. I thought that was precisely the problem with Myth Drannor's weave, between 714 and 1357; there had been so many summonings etc, and the Weave in the area had been so abused, that the mythal was corrupting and dying. I can easily be wrong; that was what I took from the reading (admittedly, it's been quite a while since I did that reading).
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6197 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2014 :  23:02:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or you might be correct, xaeyruudh, I don't know.

The (2E) rules about mythals don't explicitly specify what happens to them when the world's background magic (the Weave) sputters or spikes or collapses. Although they do specify that "normal" magics - including the spells dispel magic, antimagic shell, and even wish - aren't particularly effective, they might deactivate a single effect or locality within the mythal for a time but they just aren't powerful enough to have any lasting effect. However, wish (and even limited wish) can be used to permanently change or reduce dead-magic and wild-magic zones. To me this suggests that mythals and Elven High Magic in general are more powerful than wish and likely impervious to Weave-failure conditions.

Myth Drannor's mythallar might have been degraded from another cause, as well. Flawed construction? Rampantly overabundant (mis)use of magics within its area over the centuries? Too many waves of fiendish invaders? Methodically eroded by drow attacks? Perhaps the sentience in charge of the mythal wasn't stable enough to retain sanity over the years? Myth Drannor is a ruined mess, unlike the habitations protected by other mythals. Maybe the mythal is even depressed, angered, saddened by grief and loss and ruin?

Evereska's mythal also nearly failed (while besieged by phaerimm invaders), until it was infused with a boost of (for lack of a better name) Elven High Shadow Magic. A mighty magical battle was fought at the site for a long time, involving Elven High Mages, several Chosen, Silverfire, various potent-yet-unworthy artifacts, and numerous elven and human wizards and priests. Seems like exactly the sorts of conditions which would strain the Weave to me, although such a thing (and its possible effects on the mythal) were never mentioned.

Massive stresses on the Weave apparently distract Mystra a bit, forcing her to allocate some of her attention onto the site. Thay was cratered during the Spellplague, too much magical battle going on. Halruaa was flat out nuked. Mystra herself perished, along with her Weave, leaving that silly blue storm stuff flashing and flaring all over the Realms. Yet Shade didn't dip out of orbit, its mythallar seemingly unaffected, and the elven mythals continued to function normally (or abnormally, in Myth Drannor's case) without any noticeable change during these events (indeed, up to a full century beyond these events).

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Aug 2014 23:03:21
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2016 :  19:15:46  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The (2E) rules about mythals don't explicitly specify what happens to them when the world's background magic (the Weave) sputters or spikes or collapses. Although they do specify that "normal" magics - including the spells dispel magic, antimagic shell, and even wish - aren't particularly effective, they might deactivate a single effect or locality within the mythal for a time but they just aren't powerful enough to have any lasting effect. However, wish (and even limited wish) can be used to permanently change or reduce dead-magic and wild-magic zones. To me this suggests that mythals and Elven High Magic in general are more powerful than wish and likely impervious to Weave-failure conditions.

In other words, mythals should rate on par with artifacts. Which only makes sense.

quote:
might have been degraded from another cause, as well.
[...] Too many waves of fiendish invaders?

It was stated so.
Anyway, corruption of a mythal is not something unique. They are tough, but dependent on the surroundings too much to be invulnerable. See also: Myth Glaurach.

quote:
Methodically eroded by drow attacks?

They wish. That thing under Ravengate probably could do the job, but it sent the drow themselves running.

quote:
Maybe the mythal is even depressed, angered, saddened by grief and loss and ruin?

Mythal-puppy!

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
418 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2016 :  23:20:52  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that you specified it well - if you can cast it in dead magic zone than it is Weave independant. I do not believe that you can cast even elven High Magic in such zone. It is a epic magic so it is really strong and specialy permanent effects should be hard to dispell or dismantle with normal spells.

So for me there is only one source not using Weave and that is Shadow Weave. I do not say there are no others I just haven't tought of one.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6197 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2016 :  23:29:05  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wild-magic (and wild-mages) apparently originated from studies of Weave instabilities during the 1E-to-2E Time of Troubles. Such magic (and mages) might not be affected by Weave failures.

Mystryl allowed magic of all levels - including Netherese mythals and mythallars and spells of 10th, 11th, and 12th level. Her replacement, Mystra 1.0, rebuilt the Weave but only permitted mortals to have magics up to 9th level (10th-level, under special circumstances, with her special permission, for those deemed worthy). I suggest that anyone capable of casting 10th level or higher spells can circumvent the Weave. In practice this basically just means level 20+ characters somehow imported from Dark Sun setting.

Psionics, I think, completely circumvents the Weave.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
94 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2016 :  09:35:14  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is an article from 3.5 where the Magic of Incarnum is described as possibly Connected to Heavy Magic and Karsus. It would make the incarnum classes and races be connected With non-weave Magic, if the DM uses the optional rules.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070808
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2016 :  11:12:40  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I asked related questions, but no answer.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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The Silver Sage
Acolyte

2 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  05:04:23  Show Profile Send The Silver Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding of the weave is that it acts as a "filter" for the raw ambient magical energy which suffuses the universe. Magic is always present; left over from creation. Mystryl simply made the weave so that magic is more easily accessible (thus gaining more believers). Indeed, the weave is such a useful source of spellcasting that even the gods elect to use it (though a few elder gods donít need to; they can just channel energy directly and grant it as divine magic to their followers). Use of the weave has become so pervasive, that most mortals have forgotten how to cast spells without it and rely on it.

But it is possible to channel raw magical energy; albeit rather difficult (misuse can kill you). This is how high elven magic works. The elves, being such an ancient race, had to learn how to channel magic without the use of the weave. Oftentimes, when creating an elven mythal, they had to use several elven archwizards to even attempt such a feat in days long rituals (which speaks to how difficult channeling raw magic can be).

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Magic
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