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Bragi
Seeker
USA
88 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 10:06:05
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From the Underdark sourcebook there is a page that shows a map of the Earthroot with many cities under Thay that are unlabeled. There also appears to be a city under the eastern edge of the Thesk mountains. Does anyone have an idea of what is supposed to be there?
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In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 14:36:28
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It's the connected settlements of the drow "city" of Undrek'Thoz.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 16:08:56
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| Drizzt's Guide to the Underdark sadly doesn't get further east than the Dales. But the 3e Underdark book (which isn't nearly as good, but does have its moments) is where you'll find a description of that many-segmented city. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Bragi
Seeker
USA
88 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 17:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's the connected settlements of the drow "city" of Undrek'Thoz.
-- George Krashos
Ah, thank you! I completely missed the fact that Undrek'Thoz was a series of connected cities and not an individual location.
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In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 07:00:03
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Master Krashos,
Something that stands out to me as odd is, how are the interconnected cities of Undrek'thoz successfully connected in light of the faerzress?
For example, the cities of Drezz'Lynur is 193 miles from Mezrylornyl. There has to be many nodes of faerzress between each one that would completely screw up the conjuration(teleportation) magics?
Am I overlooking something here?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's the connected settlements of the drow "city" of Undrek'Thoz.
-- George Krashos
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 16:14:24
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Teleportation is unreliable. Portals are nailed to the place. Thus, no misjumps.
Which is why, considering the problems with teleportation, mazes of twisty passages all alike and excess of ludicrously deadly critters, portals in Underdark are fairly numerous and quite valued.
Possibly back from the Descent of the Drow, or even earlier.
Huh. To think of it, teleport circles are somewhere between the two methods. No idea whether these are scrambled or stable. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 16:20:27
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Master TBeholder,
So, with portals then are these specific kinds of spells that are used to facilitate that kind of portal so that the faerzress doesn't impact it, or is it a spell like Gate, and just that easy?
I wonder about the spell Gate as it is a conjuration (creation or calling) spell, whereas the reference to Plane Shift in the spell description of Gate says that it is "like" Plane Shift, but not identical. It almost seems like for that reason, you could gate around without issue.
With Teleportation Circle it is indeed a conjuration (teleportation) spell.
What are your thoughts on that? That is kind of odd if I do say so!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Teleportation is unreliable. Portals are nailed to the place. Thus, no misjumps.
Which is why, considering the problems with teleportation, mazes of twisty passages all alike and excess of ludicrously deadly critters, portals in Underdark are fairly numerous and quite valued.
Possibly back from the Descent of the Drow, or even earlier.
Huh. To think of it, teleport circles are somewhere between the two methods. No idea whether these are scrambled or stable.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 18:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Teleportation is unreliable. Portals are nailed to the place. Thus, no misjumps.
Which is why, considering the problems with teleportation, mazes of twisty passages all alike and excess of ludicrously deadly critters, portals in Underdark are fairly numerous and quite valued.
Possibly back from the Descent of the Drow, or even earlier.
Huh. To think of it, teleport circles are somewhere between the two methods. No idea whether these are scrambled or stable.
Nicely done! You, sir, are unlikely to be eaten by a grue.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Mar 2020 18:17:51 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 01:53:44
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Master TBeholder,
I was just discussing with someone in another scroll the very issues we were discussing here. How much do you think it would cost to make one of those permanent portals? Do you know of any upkeep for them?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Teleportation is unreliable. Portals are nailed to the place. Thus, no misjumps.
Which is why, considering the problems with teleportation, mazes of twisty passages all alike and excess of ludicrously deadly critters, portals in Underdark are fairly numerous and quite valued.
Possibly back from the Descent of the Drow, or even earlier.
Huh. To think of it, teleport circles are somewhere between the two methods. No idea whether these are scrambled or stable.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 15:02:23
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There is a massive difference between casting a teleport spell and creating a permanent keyed/special portal.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 15:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
I was just discussing with someone in another scroll the very issues we were discussing here. How much do you think it would cost to make one of those permanent portals? Do you know of any upkeep for them?
Portals are well defined in 3e in the FRCS. They are essentially magic items with a unique Item Creation feat. I think there was an update to som of the rules in PGtF, IIRC. I know I used the rules in some products in the 3e era. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 18:00:02
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Eric,
This question I have is perfect for you! I'd love your feedback.
So, you look at the roughly 150,000 GP cost of building a two-way portal and think, my god, that is a ton of gold. However, I am arguing that when you look at the contribution margin after costing out and removing the variable costs this thing pays for itself for a national asset, in months, if not less. That asset is a fixed cost that when divided over time by utility of said asset, factoring in a cost for use by merchants, taxation, etc., you see enormous benefits.
Additionally, the portal it self would become a cluster, in the economic sense.(https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/88069/1/idb-wp_523.pdf)
It just seems that while individual companies might not invest until they got to an Amazon-esque position, nations seemingly would do this when you look at the economic might of places like Calimshan, Durpar, Mulhorand, etc.
Also, the impact on the vertical supply chain would be incredible. You could have raw materials (Dambrath electrum mines) move to production instantly. The reduction in manpower, and other costs of goods would immeasurably reduce costs and increase margins. I don't know why we don't see such things in the Realms, when it would frankly make good storyline material. By storyline material, I don't mean like talk the economics, but use a portal as a focus of the story in terms of driving at what is at stake.
What do you think?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master TBeholder,
I was just discussing with someone in another scroll the very issues we were discussing here. How much do you think it would cost to make one of those permanent portals? Do you know of any upkeep for them?
Portals are well defined in 3e in the FRCS. They are essentially magic items with a unique Item Creation feat. I think there was an update to som of the rules in PGtF, IIRC. I know I used the rules in some products in the 3e era.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 03:08:43
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Portals are inherently unsafe as non-living matter passing through them goes missing periodically.
Moreover a massive trading portal hub like you describe would be targeted by economic rivals and enemies - so the cost you think relates to this operation would be significantly higher and ongoing as you factored in security measures, intelligence gathering etc.
Considering that a single "Mordenkainen's Disjunction" can ruin it all in an instant. Costly ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 03:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Portals are inherently unsafe as non-living matter passing through them goes missing periodically.
Moreover a massive trading portal hub like you describe would be targeted by economic rivals and enemies - so the cost you think relates to this operation would be significantly higher and ongoing as you factored in security measures, intelligence gathering etc.
Considering that a single "Mordenkainen's Disjunction" can ruin it all in an instant. Costly ...
-- George Krashos
They also regularly attract predators like portal drakes, they can malfunction, they can be hijacked with secondary portals, etc.
While you'd think they are like wormholes, they are too fragile. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 09:22:15
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Eric,
Oh, I did not know that. Thank you for clarifying that. Could you perhaps point me to anything that would give me an idea as to the average rate at which non-living matter goes missing, when passing through? Does that also effect peoples weaponry, clothing, etc., or is there some sort of saving throw that is made for personally worn items that go through?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 12:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Portals are inherently unsafe as non-living matter passing through them goes missing periodically.
Moreover a massive trading portal hub like you describe would be targeted by economic rivals and enemies - so the cost you think relates to this operation would be significantly higher and ongoing as you factored in security measures, intelligence gathering etc.
Considering that a single "Mordenkainen's Disjunction" can ruin it all in an instant. Costly ...
-- George Krashos
They also regularly attract predators like portal drakes, they can malfunction, they can be hijacked with secondary portals, etc.
While you'd think they are like wormholes, they are too fragile.
Good points and also a reason for subterfuge AROUND having a portal. Very much non-canon, but I had a theory that many of the Thayan enclaves had specialized portals connecting them that only allowed certain types of material through them. For instance, they might only allow lumber if the enclave was in an area where felling trees was common. They might only allow metals or even specific kinds of metals in areas where mining was common. In so doing, some of the enclaves in little known areas were basically there to gather raw materials and ship them to other enclaves where Mulan craftsmen were their to guide construction into usable materials (i.e. turning raw iron into iron bars, turning raw lumber into planed lumber and paper, turning raw gemstones into cut and/or polished stones, turning raw meat into smoked meats, jerky, etc.... turning cotton, wools, furs, etc... into clothing and armor, etc...). Before opening the portal they would notify the other side of an imminent shipment and the portal would have to be opened on both sides. Then they would use magic to quickly lift and transport the materials through the portal (sometimes using minor golems if the materials were valuable like low value gems or kind of precious metals, otherwise picture 8 apprentice wizards on each side lining up their tenser's floating disks to transport a whole tree at once, etc...).
There may have been a "moving crew" of apprentice wizards that moved from enclave to enclave within a region for moving days, such that an enclaves population of red wizards might triple or quadruple or even by 20 times one day a week or somesuch, since some enclaves might only have a wizard or two in them normally but perhaps they trade magic for loads of heavy, inconvenient to trade things like lumber, etc... and thus for these locals the enclave might actually be highly beneficial as well from a trade perspective on their end. The locals might wonder "what are they doing with all that wood we bring them", but then they go "well, at least I didn't have to transport it as far as normal".
The majority of this type of work would have been for relatively CHEAP materials in moving large quantities. Tin, lead, copper, iron, lumber, cotton, uncleaned wool, stacks of untreated hides, piles of freshly slaughtered meat, piles of bones, raw crops/grain, piles of gravel, bricks, etc.... and thus if a shipment failed to go through.. oh well.
I also pictured there being lots of use of the Quads of Thay in secret for more expensive things being moved between enclaves. Knowledge of this piece though might be confined to high levels within the Guild. For instance, an enclave may know to bring stacks of gold brick or coins or gems or magic items to a certain clearing on certain days, where they're met by a troupe of highly skilled wizards and their guards. They don't know that nearby is a sitting spelljammer ready to lift off under cover of invisibility to transport the high value materials elsewhere.
In short, I very much present a model in which the Thayan Guild of Foreign Trade functioned well because even within its own ranks only certain people understood how it functioned at all. This also allowed its ranking members to keep control. Trade routes, when portals would open, when certain "moving crews" would be sent to certain areas, etc... might be periodically changed up with little notice just to help keep up this subterfuge. Thus, I picture the Zulkir of Illusion having a lot of involvement in the background with the guild of Foreign Trade (in fact, I picture her funding the development of the Quad of Thay with money's earned via helping the guild and hiding said development even from some of her fellow Zulkirs so that they wouldn't think to use them for warfare).
Also, to note in this model, certain products would sell for a lot more in Thay. For instance, while the country was known for having crops, it was NOT known for having lumber, and thus used a lot of clay/mud/stonework and even incorporating materials like crushed bone into things. So, if they were able to transport lumber from say northwestern Faerun relatively quickly to an enclave in some place like Cimbar or Soorenar, then use local slave or hired workers to work said lumber into usable/transportable materials, then a simple trip to the port and onto a ship gets it transported to their homeland (and since its transporting extremely valuable goods like gold, it shouldn't be a target for pirates/sahuagin, etc..)
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Mar 2020 12:36:10 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2020 : 14:53:58
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Great Reader sleyvas,
This right here, which is a great point from yourself, Master Krashos, and Eric, is why I think there would have to be organizations likely sponsored by Churches of Gond, Azuth, and Waukeen to develop portals that would have defenses built into it. When you look at history in the RW, there were many versions of innovations that would get wrecked, fail, taken over by enemy forces, but that doesn't stop it. If that is the case, the Suez and Panama Canal would never have been built because enemy naval and air forces could destroy it, or Infantry could attack and take it over: Egypt and Panama couldn't stop those attacks and would lose those from major powers.
My point is, the Realms never really seems to see the large scale movements for acquisition of resources that would make sense for a world like the Realms. Everything seems to be this constant standoff to maintain equilibrium. Innovation, would be the real change that could move forward fantastic plot developments, storylines, etc. While the economics even in a broad sense would for example be boring, it would provide a realistic backdrop that people could relate too and then get all of the cool battling, magic, etc. tossed in to Realms it up. :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Underdark near Thay unlabelled
