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Nimriel
Seeker
Sweden
51 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2008 : 23:56:53
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quote:
Originally posted by GRYPHON
I like the idea of the Elrdreth Veluthra...or possibly the drow.
Or Elrdreth Veluthra(sp?) vs. the Drow .
Nah, I'd really like to see something about Twisted Rune and I've always liked Shadow Thiefs and let's not forget the vampire controlled Night Mask's, Zentarim wouldn't be so shabby either. I really wish they would make new harper type series called villains or somthing like that. |
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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 16:48:53
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| I really like books focusing on the villains. A book about a nasty protagonist who does whatever he/she wants amuses me if the protagonist is still possible to identify with and it's reasonable well written. Even better with a book that is really well written and makes me sympathize and understand why the protagonist makes bad choices. It interests me to think of why the evil overlord do what he does in fantasy. The heroes story has been told so many times. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 17:32:30
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Well, drow novels would agian most likely be bestsellers, but for various reasons I did not chose them. The main one is that not only had we (drow fans (which does not equate with Drizzt fans, BTW)) had and have to endure a nine novel series (WotSQ & LP) which changed the whole drow society from top to bottom in-novel, with hardly any tangible update in the sourcebooks despite the WotSQ series ending 2 1/2 years ago. You see, DMs like me like to see novel stuff being translated into tangible canon. Here, and especially after LP I & II, we are left with barrowloads of open questions, which also include the House Jaelre, who has surely not simply accepted the "Masked Ladies priests" in their midst.
No, I'd rather have some not-exactly-Realms-shaking yet revealing novels, giving away the thoughts of people you have so far only seen in stats, like the Twisted Rune baddies.
Thayans will be taken care of in the Haunted Lands series, shades are covered with the Archwizards' trilogy and the Erevis Cale novels. Zhentarim could need a bit of attention, but novelwise they are usually just canon-fodder for the good-doers. Obviously, they are heavily involved in the current Shadowdale (etc.) adventure series.
Churches ... well, there was a variety of faiths described recently, Bloodwalk, Mistress of Night, Maiden of Pain, Lady of Poison, Twilight War (Shar & Lathander) ... yet maybe a decent demon or devil cult of a fiend not so commonly mentioned (Malcanthet, Glasya, Shaktari, Rhyxali) would go down well with me. Or another inter-racial faith link, e.g. that of Loviatar & Lolth in Dambrath (not asking for a new drow novel though). Maybe reviving the cult of a dead deity like Myrkul.
Orgas ... the Cult of the Dragon only played peripheral roles in novels and FR adventures, so there might be good starting point, possible involving more than just humans. The Shadow Thieves are the roguish Zhentarim, IMHO.
Malaugrym ... are a bit alien and too few, got enough cover in older novels.
In any case, author should make sure that as many aspects as possible are covered, so we don't have too many open ends which leaves the DMs guessing. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Stonwulfe
Seeker
Canada
81 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 18:36:55
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I haven't skimmed this thread, but here's a question anyway:
In Bloodwalk (book II of The Wizards), Morgynn is supposed to be the protagonist (or at least that's what the cover, blurbs, and advertising portray). Though she doesn't have the protagonist's role - it falls to Elisandra and Quinsareth. Morgynn is the antagonist, and does not play the central role of the book. Therefore, I cannot adequately say that she is the protagonist. So in a way, the book fails at it's (perceivable) attempt.
This is the problem I think faces many books where the antagonist is the 'hero' or protagonist. The bad guy as the central character has only worked in the best pieces (Ripley's Game, Hannibal), and only when the ending isn't a happy one. I believe this is the case because it is natural for people to want the 'good guy' to succeed, and rarely take enjoyment in the same activities as the 'bad guys' are likely to engage in.
This is also why I feel that all of my players who've ever attempted to play Chaotic Evil have failed to do so well. So I just don't allow them to play Chaotic Evil. Many believe a chaotic evil character would and should rejoice in mindless slaughter, murder at whimsy, and taking whatever the hell they want whenever they want it, regardless the cost of life. Or, alternatively, that they should engage in the behaviors and acts of complete depravity. (I.e. rape, pillage, etc). These things, in moderation, can build a character, but he/she then becomes static. It's the sense of purpose that builds a proper evil character.
For example, someone who is truly evil (with a purpose, and not the selfish or law-bending of NE and LE), will use depraved acts as a tool to greater ends, especially if those ends are memorable. For example, a CE warrior might employ assassins to capture an enemy officer and his wife. If the enemy officer refuses to tell all of his secrets to the warrior, he feeds the officer's wife to his illithid companion, or perhaps rapes her with a serrated dagger. He doesn't necessarily have to enjoy the harm he's inflicting but he must value the effect or the efficiency of it's implementation. This is horrible, and revolting, of course, but that's what makes it evil. Then, of course, the wise warrior would let the illithid have them both anyways. (No sense keeping hostages, or risking revenge from cast-offs.) |
Edited by - Stonwulfe on 06 Jan 2008 19:09:45 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 20:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
For example, someone who is truly evil (with a purpose, and not the selfish or law-bending of NE and LE)...
I just want to point out that any of the evil alignments can be "truly evil". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 20:48:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe
I haven't skimmed this thread, but here's a question anyway:
In Bloodwalk (book II of The Wizards), Morgynn is supposed to be the protagonist (or at least that's what the cover, blurbs, and advertising portray). Though she doesn't have the protagonist's role - it falls to Elisandra and Quinsareth. Morgynn is the antagonist, and does not play the central role of the book. Therefore, I cannot adequately say that she is the protagonist. So in a way, the book fails at it's (perceivable) attempt.
I think it is a bit harsh to call the book a failure. I think it worked well.
A better case could be made that is was marketed poorly. That would be fairer to claim. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 22:54:59
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| I think the author not so long ago admitted that Bloodwalk was something like a runner's up to a WotC-contest with regards to ghostwalkers. The Ghostwalker novel came in first, but Bloodwalk was so-close a second that they made a Wizards book out of it. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 23:40:35
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| Very true. While the Bloodwalk novel didn't work for me overall, I think the "villain presented as protagonist" aspect of it had more to do with marketing than what the author's actual intent for the book was. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Jan 2008 23:41:27 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2008 : 10:17:18
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| NB: I like the "surviving villain" plotline, BTW. It gets oh-so boring if the good-doers always get their way at the end. Furthermore, I think there is no need to paint villains always in the worst possible colours ... or lets say according to their "alignment". Not saying anyone did in recent novels, but in the WotSQ, Erevis Cale and Priests series you get a number of "evil" characters behaving like "normal" people would, while displaying their "evil streak" from time to time. No-one, IMHO, walks about being e.g. 'Chaotic Evil by the Book' all year long and survives to tell the tale. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2008 : 00:54:05
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I prefer an open ended series in the mold of the harpers. Mostly stand alone novels abouts various villains, with a few that center on one or two.
I would call it "A series of Villainous Deeds!" |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 20:30:45
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Alright, I haven't finished reading the thread but I felt like chiming in now anyhow. :)
So, what I'd LOVE to see is a book about Zhentish merchants. Basically, a group of social characters who were playing the markets in order to destabilize a town or city or what have you. Very much like Petyr Baelish in methodology. They'd work behind the scenes in order to accomplish their goals (hiring humanoid bands to attack rival caravans, staging attacks upon their own caravans to throw off suspicion, ect) only to have a group of adventurers start thwarting them.
I'd love to see the themes get more. . . intricate might be the word. I'd love to see some economic impact upon places, some weaker characters who have to use guile in order to accomplish anything and things more on the line of that.
Unfortunately I think that a lot of these themes might be considered "too mature" for the "target audience" but I'm not really sure, just guessing at that. :) |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2008 : 21:51:58
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| church ... the church of Myrkul.... |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 01:44:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
church ... the church of Myrkul....
If set in 1375-ish, it would be a short book.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2008 : 21:33:16
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I agree but it could be a best-seller if the scenario was well-written!!!
Myrkul is my favorite in evil god after all!! |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 01:50:11
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Ah, my widdle thread's still around! 
This is only my opinion, mind, just as a fellow reader, and as someone who wrote one of the books mentioned.
I don't think saying "the novel failed in that aim" is the same as saying the novel is a failure. And whether the novel actually had that aim is a matter of some debate.
I for one don't think that Bloodwalk in any way tried to protagonize Morgynn. She was an antagonist from the first time she appeared, and she stayed that way until the end.
It's debatable whether it made her the *main* character (and the main character of a novel doesn't have to be the protagonist, mind).
What it *did* do, in my opinion, was make her the most important character. Morgynn takes center stage, steals the show, and basically causes to happen pretty much everything that happens in the novel.
You can be the main, best, or most important character without being the protagonist, and that's what I see BW as having done.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I think the author not so long ago admitted that Bloodwalk was something like a runner's up to a WotC-contest with regards to ghostwalkers. The Ghostwalker novel came in first, but Bloodwalk was so-close a second that they made a Wizards book out of it.
The Ghostwalker/Bloodwalk thing:
James and I both submitted a pitch for a Ghostwalker novel in the Fighters series at the same time. WotC liked both of them (for all I can tell, equally) but was faced with a dilemma: what they wanted out of our pool was one Fighters novel and one Wizards novel. And even if they gave James and me both Fighters novels, they couldn't very well release novels titled "Ghostwalker" and "That Other Ghostwalker" (and which of us would get the shaft there, I wonder?).
But lo, for they realized the James had created an awesome villain in Morgynn, who happened to be a Blood Magus. And voila! The answer emerged. James would rewrite his novel slightly to emphasize (not protagonize, see above) the villain, and then WotC would get to release what they considered two very awesome stories by us two modestly awesome guys. (Well, *James* is the awesome one. I just bask in the coolness of others. )
I'm not sure what James has said, and I'm not going to speak for him, but I assert that Bloodwalk was NOT in any way shape or form a runner-up to Ghostwalker.
If they had liked my story more and James's less, they wouldn't have published James's novel. Plain and simple.
But they *did* publish James's novel. They went out of their way to revise their strategy so that James could tell that story. (And I, for one, am glad they did.)
The simple fact is that WotC wanted both stories, so they found a way to have both.
So there's my 2 coppers, and I'm sticking to it until someone at WotC disabuses me.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 18:30:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Ah, my widdle thread's still around!
This is only my opinion, mind, just as a fellow reader, and as someone who wrote one of the books mentioned.
I don't think saying "the novel failed in that aim" is the same as saying the novel is a failure. And whether the novel actually had that aim is a matter of some debate.
I for one don't think that Bloodwalk in any way tried to protagonize Morgynn. She was an antagonist from the first time she appeared, and she stayed that way until the end.
It's debatable whether it made her the *main* character (and the main character of a novel doesn't have to be the protagonist, mind).
What it *did* do, in my opinion, was make her the most important character. Morgynn takes center stage, steals the show, and basically causes to happen pretty much everything that happens in the novel.
You can be the main, best, or most important character without being the protagonist, and that's what I see BW as having done.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I think the author not so long ago admitted that Bloodwalk was something like a runner's up to a WotC-contest with regards to ghostwalkers. The Ghostwalker novel came in first, but Bloodwalk was so-close a second that they made a Wizards book out of it.
The Ghostwalker/Bloodwalk thing:
James and I both submitted a pitch for a Ghostwalker novel in the Fighters series at the same time. WotC liked both of them (for all I can tell, equally) but was faced with a dilemma: what they wanted out of our pool was one Fighters novel and one Wizards novel. And even if they gave James and me both Fighters novels, they couldn't very well release novels titled "Ghostwalker" and "That Other Ghostwalker" (and which of us would get the shaft there, I wonder?).
But lo, for they realized the James had created an awesome villain in Morgynn, who happened to be a Blood Magus. And voila! The answer emerged. James would rewrite his novel slightly to emphasize (not protagonize, see above) the villain, and then WotC would get to release what they considered two very awesome stories by us two modestly awesome guys. (Well, *James* is the awesome one. I just bask in the coolness of others. )
I'm not sure what James has said, and I'm not going to speak for him, but I assert that Bloodwalk was NOT in any way shape or form a runner-up to Ghostwalker.
If they had liked my story more and James's less, they wouldn't have published James's novel. Plain and simple.
But they *did* publish James's novel. They went out of their way to revise their strategy so that James could tell that story. (And I, for one, am glad they did.)
The simple fact is that WotC wanted both stories, so they found a way to have both.
So there's my 2 coppers, and I'm sticking to it until someone at WotC disabuses me.
Cheers
I think you and James are pretty equal on the coolness/awesomeness issue You both brought a new flavor to the Realms and both had good villains.
I am just very glad they did not want you to rewrite and give more emphasis to Meris, thereby making the first in a series of psychopath novles. Actually, bully might better simplify his character.
On second thought.......who else better to write a villainous psycho? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2008 : 21:27:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I think you and James are pretty equal on the coolness/awesomeness issue You both brought a new flavor to the Realms and both had good villains.
Thank you sir!
quote:
I am just very glad they did not want you to rewrite and give more emphasis to Meris, thereby making the first in a series of psychopath novles. Actually, bully might better simplify his character.
Possibly. Though there was definitely some evidence to support the psychopath label for Meris.
If I'd rewritten it to feature one of the antagonists, now that I think about it, it probably would have been Gylther'yel, actually. And that would have yielded a very, very different novel.
quote:
On second thought.......who else better to write a villainous psycho?
I, good sir, shall take that as the finest of compliments.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2020 : 21:46:54
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| I'm voting for the Moonstars as the organization, and having The Blackstaff as the villain in that book. I think it would be fantastic! :) |
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 01:55:14
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| ...Except for the fact that no one other than you thinks Khelben is a villain. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2020 : 03:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
I'm voting for the Moonstars as the organization, and having The Blackstaff as the villain in that book. I think it would be fantastic! :)
Can I ask why you keep bumping threads that have been dead for over a decade? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2020 : 06:02:08
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| Anything new on Fox? Is her shadow companion under control? Last I read in Downshadow is that her shadow companion was going crazy. Has Erevan forgotten her? Has she forgotten Erevan Ilesere? Does he want her to go back to The Depths of Madness? |
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A series based on villains? (No -- not a hint)
