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Razz
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USA
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 :  06:33:25  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Where can I find game rule information on the Seven Imaskarcana created by the Imaskari? I know in 3E there has been three that's been detailed, I think. The 1st, 3rd, and 5th? What of the other 4? Is there a 1E or 2E sourcebook for FR that can lead me to finding out the abilities of these artifacts?

Also, I remember reading something about the false Imaskarcana. What's that about?

Thanks to the great sages here than can give answers or their best advice.

Kuje
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 :  06:40:02  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye, one of them is detailed in the 3e Underdark sourcebook, strangely enough.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 03 Oct 2007 06:41:51
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The Sage
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DRAGON #281 has an article entitled "Imaskarcana: Faces of Magic" which describes seven arcane masks known as the 'Faces of Madness,' and which were once thought to be the Seven Imaskarcana. We know now, however, these are not the true Imaskarcana. But the article itself is a fun read.

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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Oct 2007 07:06:55
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The Sage
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And the First and Fifth Imaskarcana have been referenced in Lost Empires of Faerūn, and the Third is in Underdark. The others haven't been properly detailed as yet.

However, here's a little of what Steven Schend has said about the Seven Imaskarcana -

"[Mention of the Imaskarcana on the old WotC FR frontpage is] throwaway stuff to add flavor and depth to the setting, as we can't possibly detail everything of importance across all times in the Realms. After all, we can't easily name every piece of regalia for the crown of England across 933 years thanks to Cromwell's melting down of much of it; now why should we be able to identify and catalogue every important item across hundreds of realms, all long since fallen? Anyway, that's the rationale for dropping in legendary items - they are sometimes among the few tidbits we've got on various people and places.
As for who/what the Seven Imaskarcana were/are, here are my theories and obfuscations:
While their contents and forms are much disputed, the Seven Imaskarcana are inarguably seven great stores of knowledge about magic, thus the name.
Some contend that the arcana collectively contain the knowledge of the Imaskari/Raurinese sorcerer-kings (or whatever their title may be, for each sage coins titles anew with each writing).
Many have theorized that the Seven Imaskarcana provide total understanding and much lost lore on each school of magic save Necromancy. While this supposes the existence of an eighth or further Imaskarcana, the few who entered the Plains of Purple Dust to prove this theory have never returned to add to the lore.
Many others have supposed that they each held the history of an age of Raurin, and the end of the Seventh Imaskari Age led to its destruction and the birth of the Old Empires.
Still others suppose that each of the Seven holds innumerable secrets of magic, though they correspond to the humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, dragons, and a seemingly lost race of aquatic creatures.
All of these theories above suggest that the Imaskarcana were massive great-tomes bound in slate covers lined with blue dragon's skin, though the makeup of the pages was said to be vellum, the skin of humans or elves or even tanar'ri, or even crystal that was given the flexibility of paper without the weaknesses. Only a few sages think of these artifacts otherwise, though there are an isolated few from Thay who so dare.
The strangest suggestion, made by one Thamaultadh of Tyraturos, implies that the Seven Imaskarcana are not items or storehouses of lore so much as they are great menhirs of stone embedded with great magics and now lost in the Great Desert of Raurin. His theories, contained only in his notebooks (now safely ensconsed in Candlekeep after 480 years), suggest that the Imaskarcana projected a magical barrier around the Imaskari lands, protecting it from invasion by magical forces. He further supposed this was why the genies of Calim and Memnon settled Calimshan rather than the Inner Sea. The Seven lay in the western sands of the desert and were all that remained of a series of 28 menhirs that bordered the Imaskari's claimed lands.
Thamaultadh's own apprentice and seventh son refuted his father's strange theory with one equally bizarre: The Seven Imaskarcana are neither books nor menhirs, though they could conceivably be both stores of knowledge and magical defenses of the Imaskar lands. Synnaros of the Twelve Tomes proposed that the Seven Imaskarcana were, in fact, seven massive but identical statues placed in various places now buried within the borders of the Raurin Desert. These golem-like statues appeared as sages sitting with an open tome upon their laps. Should folk uncover or find one of the Imaskarcana, they could ask questions of it, and it would provide any knowledge that it held.
Elminster's surprisingly close-mouthed about the truth of the matter, so he either doesn't know the answer or simply enjoys dribbling enough lore to whet the appetite without fully sating it. He did smirk about Synnaros' theory, and said
"I have seen one of these giant stone sages of Imaskar, aye. Whether it be one of Seven or an Imaskarcana at all is for someone of more rarified interest than mine own. Of course, ye can only get answers out of it if ye know the tongue of the Imaskari, for it only recognizes that tongue. There be only one Faerunian living or dead who might teach it to ye, and he's hardly one to welcome ye for a lesson while he wanders about the Underhalls......"
Is that sufficient for peoples' curiosities on these stray references? We'll probably never know more officially until we turn our attentions to that corner of Faerun again.....sometime in the distant future......
Steven Schend
Senior Designer, Role-Playing R&D
Who knows better than to give away too much about the Great Staff of the Blackcloak or the Sable Gauntlet of the Black Lord.......... "

...

The Seventh Imaskarcana is partially alluded to in the LEoF web enhancement -

"... the Seventh Imaskarcana—a fabled artifact of ancient Imaskar that resembles a large, golden key—is an appropriate choice. The Seventh Imaskarcana holds the entire body of Imaskari knowledge about creating permanent extradimensional spaces, and it also has additional powers that are left to your discretion."

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The Sage
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 :  07:20:08  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Aye, one of them is detailed in the 3e Underdark sourcebook, strangely enough.

Well, it likely remains preserved by the Deep Imaskari in the Purple Library. So it may be that those Imaskari who fled with Ilphemon after the Empire fell, also carried the Third Imaskarcana along with them. Eventually, it probably became part of Deep Imaskar's vast treasury of preserved arcane artifacts from the fallen Imaskari Empire.

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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 :  14:30:48  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

Also, I remember reading something about the false Imaskarcana. What's that about?
Sage is correct. The False Imaskarcana described in the Grand History entry under -2487 DR is indeed one of the Faces of Madness described in DRAGON #281.

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Razz
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 :  16:03:09  Show Profile Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see, the false Imaskarcana are the Faces of Madness items. I have that article so that's good.

As for what Steven Schend said and some bits in LEoF, thanks for that reference and info. I agree some items should be best be left for DM's imaginations, a key reference to and artifact's core abilities and even a few that have been around for a long time should be given game mechanics out by now (heh, the Lifedrain spell was one I've been longing to see done).

Thanks all!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 Oct 2007 :  17:41:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Razz

(heh, the Lifedrain spell was one I've been longing to see done).



Unless I am mistaken (and I've not yet replaced the book, so I can't check), this spell was detailed in the 2E Anauroch sourcebook.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 13 Oct 2007 :  20:00:51  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When dealing with them, it is important to remember that (supposedly) they react violently to being questioned by anyone speaking anything but the "pure" language of the old empire (Roushom). Use the "search" function here for a thread I started about their linguistic xenophobia.


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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 20 Oct 2007 19:57:03
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

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Posted - 21 Oct 2007 :  16:56:03  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is an interesting painting found in an Imaskar ruin, in one of the early chapters of the novel Darkvision penned by Bruce R. Cordell. It depicts Emperor Omanond standing with seven fey-like figures each carrying a magical tome. The name inscribed below the figures reads “leShay”. This painting seems to be intimating that the leShay (described in the Epic Level Handbook) had a hand in crafting the seven Imaskarcana. This further strengthens one hypothesis that the leShay may indeed be the Fey creator race. Just some food for thought.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 21 Oct 2007 :  17:34:59  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if you really want to know what the other Imaskarcana are...

Use a Time Travel Spell and go back and see! That may seem weak, but I had a party that had great fun in Netheril, and they gained a GREAT deal of experience being gone a year IN Netheril, but only being gone a month in "real" time where they were from.

Manshoon: "How in the name of the Black Lord have you gained so much power! Only last year you couldn't even defend against my weakest magics!"

Party Member What's-his-face: "Last year to you, but a decade to me! Now prepare to taste my Tolodine's Killing Wind! Zhentil Keep will fall!"

Don't know if I got the spelling right on that one...but you guys get the idea.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 21 Oct 2007 :  20:32:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

There is an interesting painting found in an Imaskar ruin, in one of the early chapters of the novel Darkvision penned by Bruce R. Cordell. It depicts Emperor Omanond standing with seven fey-like figures each carrying a magical tome. The name inscribed below the figures reads “leShay”. This painting seems to be intimating that the leShay (described in the Epic Level Handbook) had a hand in crafting the seven Imaskarcana. This further strengthens one hypothesis that the leShay may indeed be the Fey creator race. Just some food for thought.

Indeed, I was going to mention this myself. It would appear that the Fey did indeed craft a series of tomes similar to the way the other Creator races crafted the Nether Scrolls.

The GHotR go further to state that the Fey have been dabbling in changing things in FR since the beginning of time, starting with the entry in -27000 DR. I've been saying all along that the Fey came FIRST, not last, out of the four Creator Races, and this placement of them further back along the timeline does much to support my suppositions. I have a feeling that their original homeland was on or near Toril (Abeir?), and after the affair of the Black Diamond they were forced to move their Realm to another dimension. Note that the Star Elves (originally brought to Faerūn by the Fey) have done the same, and according to Darkvision the Imaskari also dabbled in these kinds of dimensional magic (hence the Fey reference in the novel).

And Bruce Cordell is Lead designer of the 4e realms....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2007 20:42:52
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Jamallo Kreen
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Posted - 22 Oct 2007 :  22:36:52  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden

Well, if you really want to know what the other Imaskarcana are...

Use a Time Travel Spell and go back and see! That may seem weak, but I had a party that had great fun in Netheril, and they gained a GREAT deal of experience being gone a year IN Netheril, but only being gone a month in "real" time where they were from.

Manshoon: "How in the name of the Black Lord have you gained so much power! Only last year you couldn't even defend against my weakest magics!"

Party Member What's-his-face: "Last year to you, but a decade to me! Now prepare to taste my Tolodine's Killing Wind! Zhentil Keep will fall!"

Don't know if I got the spelling right on that one...but you guys get the idea.



Ed has often said that chronomantic spells don't work "as described" on Toril. The only exception of which I know is visiting Netheril, which has some very, very, very stringent rules. (Chronomancer was a Netherese archwizard himself.) Someone who tried to travel back to ancient Imaskar would probably not wind up in the past of the current timeline, but in some alternate timeline, or would return to an alternate "present." Alternatively, some deity would probably just jerk you around and make you think that you had travelled to Imaskar (Oghma, lord of all knowledge, has Trickery as one of his clerical domains; you should be so lucky as to have him mess with you -- as opposed to some "nameless abomination from the outer gulphs of space and time").


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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 22 Oct 2007 :  23:46:22  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alternate Reality or not...you could still find more information in the past than in the present.

Just a thought.

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Daviot
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Posted - 23 Oct 2007 :  03:50:18  Show Profile  Visit Daviot's Homepage  Send Daviot an AOL message Send Daviot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then again, the Arcane Age have some very specific rules about time travel, and a ninth level spell to make limited 1-year trips.
And then, Mystra, Azuth, Oghma, Deneir, and Labelas Enoreth collectively watch out for time travelers. And Labelas' Knights Paradoxical are more or less Faerūn's "Time Police". That being said, you definitely could find out information on the Imaskarcana in the past; you just couldn't physically take it (or any magic item) back to the present with you.

One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 23 Oct 2007 :  04:14:47  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Essentially, the party I ran did this:

Being sent into the past they had NOTHING on them that was unique or magical in any way...they knew only common weapons from that period (worth a fortune to be non-magical...and hard to come by!) could be taken...and those items only if they had been lost before the period they were going back to! (some serious use of contact other plane, summoning ancient weapon/armor makers and legend lore went into this operation!!!) Once there, the party went about collecting magical items to use in the period they were in. When the year was over (they always appeared on the morning of the first day of the year and vanished just before sunrise the next year on the same day) they went back into their own future...where only a month had passed as described in the spell.

Each time they went back, they could only pick a year other than a year already visited. To make the campaign more fluid, they always went back to the very next year and secured the things they had gained from their hidden cache.

To make a long story short, the wizards of the party had a field day learning ancient magic...and the rest of the party became VERY wealthy...it was nice to visit a dungeon where they had secreted nice magical treasures and valuables from centuries gone by. It was some fun seeing them construct their caches in the past so that they could be discovered in the future...

Anyway, by the time all was said and done the two wizards knew quite a bit about Netheril because they had spent ten years adventuring in it! This only amounted to ten months in their own "time-space" and was explained away to their retainers (who maintained their holdings) as them simply being gone adventuring.

So, I don't see that there would be a limit on someone doing the same...going back to Imaskar and studying it in depth to learn as much as possible...

And gain a magic item or dozen that they hide in a special place

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Hoondatha
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Posted - 24 Oct 2007 :  07:00:04  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't there another Imaskarcana detailed? I seem to remember it being mentioned as a random treasure in a fungus cavern underneath the Chondalwood. But then again, I may be misremembering.

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Posted - 24 Oct 2007 :  20:16:15  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Will I be grilled if I say I hate the word "Imaskarcana"?

For the record, I also hate the word "LeShay".

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Hawkins
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Posted - 24 Oct 2007 :  20:19:52  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Will I be grilled if I say I hate the word "Imaskarcana"?

For the record, I also hate the word "LeShay".



Lol. I actually like them.

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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Oct 2007 :  20:57:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like Imaskarcana, it has a certain 'ring' to it.

I HATE the LeShay... what is that? French for 'The Fey'?

For some reason, though, having the LeShay speak French seems somehow... right.

Maybe when they handed off the Imaskarcana to Emperor Omanond, they quoted that Beatles song -

"Michelle, ma belle
Sont des mots qui vont tres bien ensemble
tres bien ensemble"





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Jamallo Kreen
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Posted - 25 Oct 2007 :  21:19:17  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daviot

Then again, the Arcane Age have some very specific rules about time travel, and a ninth level spell to make limited 1-year trips.
And then, Mystra, Azuth, Oghma, Deneir, and Labelas Enoreth collectively watch out for time travelers. And Labelas' Knights Paradoxical are more or less Faerūn's "Time Police". That being said, you definitely could find out information on the Imaskarcana in the past; you just couldn't physically take it (or any magic item) back to the present with you.



And don't forget the real Amauntor: he had, as part of his portfolio, "all time." Journeying back to a time and place when he is still vigorous would probably lead to ... consequences....




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Skeptic
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Posted - 25 Oct 2007 :  21:31:37  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I like Imaskarcana, it has a certain 'ring' to it.

I HATE the LeShay... what is that? French for 'The Fey'?

For some reason, though, having the LeShay speak French seems somehow... right.


LeShay means nothing in French. (Well, it could mean "the Shay")

I hate the word too.

Edited by - Skeptic on 25 Oct 2007 21:32:12
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Hoondatha
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Posted - 26 Oct 2007 :  01:38:19  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, this is really bugging me because I can't remember. What's LeShay?

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Posted - 26 Oct 2007 :  01:41:30  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Ok, this is really bugging me because I can't remember. What's LeShay?



Some type of proto-fey/elf creature.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Kuje
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Posted - 26 Oct 2007 :  02:01:50  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Ok, this is really bugging me because I can't remember. What's LeShay?



I believe they are in the Epic Level Handbook.

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Hawkins
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Posted - 26 Oct 2007 :  17:41:00  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Ok, this is really bugging me because I can't remember. What's LeShay?

Here is the SRD incarnation of them:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm

quote:
From the Epic Level Handbook, pg 202

As elves are to humans, so are leShay to elves (but more so): a race immortal, enigmatic, and exceptionally powerful.
LeShay look like tall, thin albino elves, except they lack the oversized ears of true elves (leShay ears look more like half-elf ears) and, while they have the glossy dead-white hair of true albinos, their eyes are pits of darkness.


Then it goes on to tell how they are immune to age and disease and only die if killed, can pick up any language, and some history on them predating the current multiverse.

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He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

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* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)

Edited by - Hawkins on 26 Oct 2007 17:52:56
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