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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 12:57:28
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can there be paladins of an evil diety? would that be a black guard?
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The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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realcrowjoe
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 14:23:44
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Per core rules and cannon no. Paladin is only lawful good.
Per my house rule in my campaign(2e) every diety had a holy warrior. Because to me Holy does = Good. They didn't all have the same abilities, each were favored more to the diety's mindset.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 14:37:13
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Yes, paladins are only lawful good.
To me, in my campaigns, even with the fact that all the deities can have a "sacred champion", a paladin continues to be "a paladin": a lawful good dude with an extreme code of conduct, and great powers. I dislike too much the idea of "paladins of other alignment".
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
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sirreus
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 14:54:28
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that would definitely be a blackguard. you could, however use the variant rules in unearthed arcana(great source book). there is a paladin variant for every alignment. |
"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 15:08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine: can there be paladins of an evil diety? would that be a black guard?
Unearthed Arcana provides a few paladin variants that you might be interested in. They adhere to different codes of conduct than the standard ones, and some of them are pretty interesting; there's the chaotic good paladin of freedom, dedicated to liberty and freedom of thought; the lawful evil paladin of tyranny bent on dominating the weak; and the chaotic evil paladin of slaughter, who leaves destruction in his wake. They've got some different abilities, and it's definitely worth checking out if that sounds like something you're interested in.
So yeah, paladins can follow evil deities, but not by the standard rules.
Of course, these paladin variants present characters who have likely followed evil deities from the beginning. An orcish paladin of slaughter, for instance, could follow Gruumsh, for example. But if you're more interested in good characters who fell from Grace, well, that's the Blackguard. It's a prestige class, not a standard variant. And it's also pretty cool.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
Edited by - Ugly is the new black on 02 Oct 2007 15:11:31 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 16:11:15
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| Note also that this is changing in 4e, so they no longer have to be LG sometime next year. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 17:18:40
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It may also bear noting that under the 3/3.5 rules, using the Heretic of the Faith feat from Power of Faerun (which allows you to be one additional step away in alignment from your deity, and to grossly violate your own code of conduct without fearing reprisal), you could in theory have a standard LG paladin of a LE deity (Bane, say, or Loviatar), provided you come up with a pretty good explanation of why your character worships said deity. You are, basically, a heretic--perhaps preaching that of Bane's eventual conversion to the forces of good, or how all the evil he promotes is really only a necessity to bring out the good in the world, etc., etc.
A really liberal (that is, in interpretation of this mechanic) might allow a LG paladin of a NE or even CE deity, but that wouldn't really make sense to me.
But really, why wouldn't you just play a blackguard? They're just so awesome, as UITNB points out. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 18:32:51
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Oh, my...
I like much more of the old days, when paladins was paladins, and CG fighters was CG figthers...
=)
Chosen of Moradin, holding the 2nd Edition Complete Paladins Handbook like Sméagol did with the One Ring...  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 04:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
I like much more of the old days, when paladins was paladins
You and me both, buddy.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 04:20:26
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I always kind of saw hexblades as sort of arcane "anti-paladins." Hexblades have to be non-good, and they "hex" their opponents as they fight them, as well as gaining limited spellcasting. Dragon even had an article on hexblade curses that could be taken as feats.
Also, in the Book of Nine Swords the Crusader is kind of a "holy warrior" type that that gets some supernatural feeling maneuvers, but this book does introduce a whole new system to incorporate, which may be a bit much if all you want is an evil "paladin." Incarnates in Magic of Incarnum book are kind of the same story. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 05:26:45
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the "paladins of other alignments" articles in Dragon Magazine. I actually enjoyed the articles, but Paladins are paladins. Paladin=Lawful Good.
On another note, though, is the "holy warriors" of other faiths & alignments. I'd much rather see an Elven "Paladin of Freedom" from UA rather than the LG one that is presented in Races of the Wild. It's a matter of flavor and a matter of preference, really. Just like I much prefer the other names given in Dragon, like Sentinel or Anarch for the other alignments. They really aren't paladins at that point in their alignments.
As to the "core paladin" being any alignment in 4e... Bah. It's an optional rule, and that's the way it should stay, whether I like the extra rules or not.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 01:34:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
I like much more of the old days, when paladins was paladins
You and me both, buddy.
love,
nathan.
And me. As I said in another thread, I'm a bit of a "square" and I prefer the traditional paladin. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 01:46:32
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| Is there a reason to expand the D&D and Realms sense of 'paladin' other than to please those who want the value of 'paladin' without the moral responsibility? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 03:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Is there a reason to expand the D&D and Realms sense of 'paladin' other than to please those who want the value of 'paladin' without the moral responsibility?
In all honesty, I don't see why the cleric-warrior mix that is the paladin is limited to just one alignment. I've no problem with these kinds of characters serving other alignments. Maybe the name should be changed to keep some people happy, but it's not necessary, to me.
It's not Realms, but in the Rose of the Prophet trilogy, by Weis & Hickman, there was an order called the Black Paladins. They served the main god of evil on their world, Sularin. As shown in the trilogy, they had no problem with murdering outsiders or feeding helpless prisoners to demons. But among the members of the order, they were very close, almost like an extended family. They wept with joy upon the return of a far-traveling member, and became blood-brothers with each other. They also were very devout, working at tremendous risk to rescue their nearly dead deity, so that he could once more resume his place in the heavens.
The Black Paladins had the strength of faith and unity of purpose common to any LG paladin order. But they were very thoroughly evil...
So, after seeing them in action, I don't see any reason why to deny paladins to other alignments. If anyone can be a cleric of a deity, or a warrior dedicated to the service of a deity, why can't they belong to a class that is part of both?
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 06:45:32
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| In my opinion, a paladin is special, dedicated warrior (in contrast to other warrios), and so it is good that paladins have to be lawfall good. I think there should be only one other alignment possible, that is lawful evil for the other extreme (which we have with the blackguard). This is something which constiute the spirit of this character class distinguishing it from other classes. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 07:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In all honesty, I don't see why the cleric-warrior mix that is the paladin is limited to just one alignment.
I agree (more or less) -- it's strictly the word I'm (non-rhetorically) wondering about. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 14:55:11
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I dislike the paladin class; Why would a Realmsian deity, say, Mystra or Mielikki, expect or even want some of their followers to uphold the oaths of paladinhood? It seems mighty artificial to have a unique base class called the paladin, different in nature from other classes, but only have its abilities available to people who adhere to a code alien to their patron deity. If I were a deity, I would grant paladin powers to the most devoted champions of my own dogma and church, not those who follow universal paladin rules and only barely combine those with my own wishes.
I don't mind paladin orders, at all. But I can't wrap my head around the notion that deities can/will only grant the paladin powers to those who follow paladin oaths. It seems forced and artificial. |
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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 15:11:43
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Why would a Realmsian deity, say, Mystra or Mielikki, expect or even want some of their followers to uphold the oaths of paladinhood?
I think because the Gods portfolios, followers, and areas of influence are not static. Mystra isn't just "magic" and her followers aren't just "magic-worshippers", there's a lot more involved. Her influence can reach all kinds of creatures, cultures, beliefs, and areas, and for some of those things a paladin may be just what is needed. Have an area ruled by an evil culture that believes that strength, honor, and skill at arms is what defines power, and said area is screwing around with magic (perhaps creating dead magic zones on purpose, or wild magic, etc... due to their hostility towards magic in general), thus it may be the wisest thing to send in a Noble Knight of Mystra that has vowed to uphold her values and fight for her cause, whereas some Wizard of Mystra may become a pincushion by a hundred crossbowmen. Yeah, it's a stretch, but just trying to explain the WIDE variety of situations that each church most likely experiences.
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It seems mighty artificial to have a unique base class called the paladin, different in nature from other classes, but only have its abilities available to people who adhere to a code alien to their patron deity.
I always thought one of the faults of TSR's paladins was that they never expanded enough on them and made said codes too strict. 'Lawful Good' and 'Codes of Honor' can be incredibly flexible, in my opinion. Pick a Good aligned deity and theres no way you can't lay out a 'code' that can appease the deity's ethos AND still fulfill the lawful good aspect. Again, this is my opinion.
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But I can't wrap my head around the notion that deities can/will only grant the paladin powers to those who follow paladin oaths. It seems forced and artificial.
Well, if a paladin is just in it for those powers and abilities, then I think their missing the point. If they can't/don't want to follow the oath...who's forcing them to? By all means, be a Fighter of Mystra. |
Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 15:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
Why would a Realmsian deity, say, Mystra or Mielikki, expect or even want some of their followers to uphold the oaths of paladinhood?
Most of them don't.quote:
I don't mind paladin orders, at all. But I can't wrap my head around the notion that deities can/will only grant the paladin powers to those who follow paladin oaths.
The granted abilities of paladins are manifestations, via the god, of their virtue. Laying on of hands is an externalization of the paladin's own spiritual cleanliness. I have the strength of ten because my heart is pure. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 16:01:37
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quote:
Well, if a paladin is just in it for those powers and abilities, then I think their missing the point. If they can't/don't want to follow the oath...who's forcing them to? By all means, be a Fighter of Mystra.
It's not about the paladin itself, it's about what the deity wants. Why would a deity want to restrict these amazing champions by the same codes as everyone else? I'm sure a god would beneift of a holy champion with similar powers as a "paladin", only without the paladin codes.
I personally don't buy the claim that the paladin abilities are the paladin's own virtues. A god is a god, and I see no reason why a mortal has to be brave, honourable and honest in order to get a hefty saving throw bonus and the ability to smite evil, let alone access to spells. If a god wanted to bless a warrior to serve his or her cause, why would said deity pick only Lawful Good paladins bound by a code of chivalry?
Sure, you can defend the paladin as a viable possibility. What I don't get, however, is why all paladins (or champions with equivalent abilities) should adhere to the same oaths and codes. It may be that I greatly underestimate the deities of Forgotten Realms, but somehow I doubt their ability to grant specific powers to a mortal is completely dependant on the mortal's personal ethics. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 17:04:30
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But if you follow your oath and serve a deity, acting according to the code this deity deems appropriate, you act lawful - automatically. And in regard of the "good" part, there we have already two classes for a "good paladin", which is the paladin, and an "evil paladin", which is the blackguard.
If deities do not want their followers to act lawful, they usually do not have paladin orders, either. Selūne, for example, adhering to the chaotic principle, naturally has no paladins, but there are the Silverstars, which are chaotic good and do not follow the strict code of paladins. As Faith and Pantheons states: "Selūne demands an individualistic outlook on life that is incompatible with the lawful nature of paladins and monks, and her passionately good and chaotic nature leaves little room for the balance a druid requires."
I don't see a problem with paladins being lawful good. Gods which need a holy fighter which cannot be lawful (or good) can create their own class different from the paladin (and they do, as we have seen).
Edit: Inserted missing word. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 06 Oct 2007 19:52:17 |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 17:43:42
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quote:
Gods which need a holy fighter which cannot be lawful (or good) can create their own class different from the paladin (and they do, as we have seen).
Well, that's just it. Why is paladin a base class and not just one sub-class in a "champion of the faith" category? It's the baseclassness that irks me, not the concept itself. Paladins seem to have a monopoly to their dandy abilities. At least I don't recall PrCs that gives paladin spells, even if it should be within any deity's power to grant them to their own champions. I may be mistaken, though, as I don't check every new PrC that's published. I just don't see the need for a universal paladin template, when the same powers could be granted to a variety of champions serving a myriad of deities.
As for blackguards, I don't think they're even the evil paladin, are they? I've always been under the impression they merely deal with the devil, so to say, and sell their soul to a fiend. They're not held to any code or even alignment, since they can't reverse the contract once it's made. Am I completely off? |
Edited by - IronAngel on 06 Oct 2007 17:44:47 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 17:56:09
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quote:
To qualify to become a blackguard, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment
Any evil.
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The character must have made peaceful contact with an evil outsider who was summoned by him or someone else.
Clearly not a lawful requirement. Of course keeping the contract appears to be part of the deal. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 06 Oct 2007 20:06:39 |
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paladins
