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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 16:45:10
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Some new posts from Rich from the WOTC FR thread, all dated Oct 3rd, 2007
"Yes, you'll certainly see Realms-specific prestige classes. Likewise, you'll see racial feats specific to Realms subraces. I'm less certain about Realms-specific "types of magic." I don't know if the gem magic introduced in Magic of Faerun (for instance) ever really caught on."
and
"Pardon me for snipping your quote to get to the crux of the question. I've got a couple of thoughts in response.
First, some rules changes deserve story explanations, and some don't. The addition of fighter and rogue powers to those classes don't demand explanation, to my mind--the new rules set simply shows what those guys have been doing all along, simply in better and more exciting fashion. Changes to the way wizard powers work *do* require story explanation, because the rules of magic in the setting are well-known and can't be changed on a whim.
Second, we're not changing for the sake of change. That implies that we're simply not interested in the repercussions of the changes we're making, and that just ain't true. We're changing things because we have good reasons to do so. We want to be able to tell new stories, we want to be able to keep up with the new D&D rules, and we want to let bad ideas from the past be forgotten. There's very little that we've done out of "designer hubris." I don't doubt that different people will draw the line of "you've hit hubris" in different spots, but that's the nature of the beast.
Third, I wouldn't necessarily agree that Realms "ain't broke." We've got concerns about the accessibility of the Realms to new players and new readers (and new writers and game designers, too). The Realms *will* be broken if it becomes an ossified setting played and read only by a slowly diminishing audience of old-timers. We need to reach out to new players and provide an opportunity for them to buy one game product or one book and feel just as invested in the Realms as someone who's been following us for ten years."
and
"Oooh, sorry I missed this one, it's been a couple of days.
Yes, you'll still have wizardly magic in 4e Realms. It may work a little differently than it did before, but the Spellplague's to blame for that." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 21:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
What about Myster?
Or Mysterelmin? Elminstra? Myelminstra? Mystrinster?   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 23:53:18
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| With the apparent intent of thinning the ranks of the Chosen, I don't see Elminster becoming a deity. That would quite irritate the already vocal "the Chosen are the Justice League of the Realms" faction. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 02:58:41
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"Bad ideas from the past"? Uh ... why not just say that everyone listed as a playtester and everyone stupid enough to have bought product should be knee-capped? Along with the writers and designers, of course -- can't forget them. But not the bosses; no, never them. Grrr....
Anyway, since I have been playing the eighth dwarf, Indignant, through these discussions, I may as well add another factor which will strongly influence my future decisions to "buy" or "not buy:" indices! Peas and rice! How funkin' hard is it to compile an index for a word-processed book? All of twenty minutes of exhaustive button-pushing? What can it add to a book's price? Five cents? Funk! Put a darn index in a book and I'll mail you a nickel, Hasbro! I just answered someone else's question about sources of info on Netheril, and mentioned several passages in Serpent Kingdoms, for none of which I could supply a page number because the darned book isn't indexed and the table of contents doesn't have the lore! Grrr....
(And, yes, I have seen the Hot Fuzz DVD and listened to the "Hot Funk" bonus material. Just in case you were wondering.)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 03:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
"Bad ideas from the past"? Uh ... why not just say that everyone listed as a playtester and everyone stupid enough to have bought product should be knee-capped? Along with the writers and designers, of course -- can't forget them. But not the bosses; no, never them. Grrr....
Anyway, since I have been playing the eighth dwarf, Indignant, through these discussions, I may as well add another factor which will strongly influence my future decisions to "buy" or "not buy:" indices! Peas and rice! How funkin' hard is it to compile an index for a word-processed book? All of twenty minutes of exhaustive button-pushing? What can it add to a book's price? Five cents? Funk! Put a darn index in a book and I'll mail you a nickel, Hasbro! I just answered someone else's question about sources of info on Netheril, and mentioned several passages in Serpent Kingdoms, for none of which I could supply a page number because the darned book isn't indexed and the table of contents doesn't have the lore! Grrr....
(And, yes, I have seen the Hot Fuzz DVD and listened to the "Hot Funk" bonus material. Just in case you were wondering.)
This has been brought up through the last few years since 3e FR material and Rich basically said, "Either you get a index and lose some of the page count or you don't get a index and you get a few extra pages."
So, I don't see this policy really changing.... less WOTC decides the index is worth the lost handful of pages. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 16:20:40
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I missed this quote yesterday from Rich since I was gone most of the day.
"Please don't misquote me. You need to read my post more carefully: I said that FR *would* be broken *if* it became an ossified setting played only by a diminishing audience of old-timers.
I think there's a risk of that now. In fact there's been a risk of that for some years now, and we've seen evidence that not as many new D&D players make the jump into Realms as we'd like. From the point of view of longtime Realms players, of course FR ain't broke. From the point of view of new players who might be interested in Realms but aren't coming on over, well, I'm not so sure. Which is why I don't know that I would agree with the sentiment "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."" |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 17:12:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I missed this quote yesterday from Rich since I was gone most of the day.
"Please don't misquote me. You need to read my post more carefully: I said that FR *would* be broken *if* it became an ossified setting played only by a diminishing audience of old-timers.
I think there's a risk of that now. In fact there's been a risk of that for some years now, and we've seen evidence that not as many new D&D players make the jump into Realms as we'd like. From the point of view of longtime Realms players, of course FR ain't broke. From the point of view of new players who might be interested in Realms but aren't coming on over, well, I'm not so sure. Which is why I don't know that I would agree with the sentiment "if it ain't broke, don't fix it.""
I don't understand this exactly. I hear that complaint on other forums as well. I got in the FR in 2003, just after 3.5 was announced. I had no problems. The only other items I had was the old FR grey box, and a few other box sets (Ruins of Myth Drannor, Undermountain, maybe some others)and I picked those up years ago before I had dropped out of gaming for a while.
The FRCS, Magic and Faiths I picked up when I got with a new group doing the FR thing, and I haven't looked back. I see no problem starting a 3.x campaign with those three. All the other stuff helps and gives more fluff, but isn't necessary. And I have gone back and bought lots of older 2e stuff for the fluff since WotC stopped making sourcebooks. They kinda have themselves to blame for that problems. Updated regions would have made it easier for new players.
Maybe I just don't get it. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 18:14:45
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The Problem I can see is somewhat similar to X-Men, or the entire X-universe, or even more to the point of every marvel-thingy... I haven't read any X-Title since the Apocalypse-ends the world with multiple paralel dimensions plot some 9 or so years ago, butif one wanted to really get what was going on and why villain a was all of the sudden nice to heroine b, and why all that happened, you had to do a lot of reading to understand it all, I imagine it will be worse nowadays, with both the X-universe...and with the Realms. There is, let's face it, too much bloody info. A newbie, especially one who has never really played any Realms game, aside from maybe a console BG thing, will be FRIGHTENED to actually touch that campaign setting, there is just so much to know and read. Ask any x-men-oldtimer who the shi'ar are or what the dark phoenix saga was all about, they'll know, hell, even newbies might know it, but if the entire "game" world has been around for more than two decades and has been supported by more products and novels than any younger player who thinks M:TG is great gaming if it lasts 30 minutes, he will be scared... and (chuckles mischievously) rightfully so...to learn all this he'd have to read more for a hobby than the poor sod has ever read in school...throughout his entire career as a student. At least that is what he might think.
To drive a car you don't need to know everything about that model, you just need to know where the ignition key goes, where clutch, gas and breaks are (which is fairly the same place in most cars) and drive on the right side of the street...or left, if you live in England...
FR ain't broke, it just needs some real introduction... for newbies, Wizards managed to do that for D&D with the basic game, hell, maybe they also managed to get new players thru D&D minis, maybe if they'd given it some thought, and took the one thing from MMORPGs that could be worth implementing into the Realms, or any other campaign setting for that matter, and actually made use of this ... I'm talking about the newbie starting area. Not some supplement that tells you all about the history, but a place to which the PCs have a connection...and adventure there UNTIL the players say "Hey, I wanna go to Waterdeep" or whathave you. Have a standard starting area...with adventures, not just one adventure, but a whole bunch of them. Make it a place people who know of the Realms thru Drizzt novels (most likely the only Realms they have read so far), make it Ten Towns, and take it from there.
The diagram should be something like Basic D&D, followed by PHB, DMG, MM...then the Starter Area for whatever campaign setting and then the campaign setting. Hell, maybe even include the Starter Area(s) in the basic game. That would be common sense |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 21:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
FR ain't broke, it just needs some real introduction...
Attempts like this are the 2e Players Guide and the 3e/3.5e FRCS – products like these can provide a non-scary environment to start in FR without feeling too overwhelmed.
When I started D&D in 1990 (or thereabouts) Dragonlance was the first setting I played in and read novels on. I read some about FR as well and was initially put off by the idea of so much lore and background out there, and had the (misguided) idea I would be lost without that having access to all that background information.
Misguided, for when a few years later I did dive into the Realms it wasn't as 'scary' as I thought and I haven't left Faerűn since. I did go and buy OOP products and started adding to my FR collection – more out of a 'collecting' drive than necessity to have all the products for actual use.
Yet not everyone might get to the realization that having access to all the previous published material is not a requirement to step into the world of Elminster, the Chosen, Drizzt et al. and therefore shy away from the setting; having a good introduction product – be that an FRCS-style tome, a hybrid board game or something else would be able to draw the required new blood into the Realms. Even for the established fan-base a product like this – if sprinkled with some new lore – would be interesting.
I agree with Rich’s statement regarding the ossification and catering to the ‘old-timers’ (I would include myself in this category) – though in the short run it might be worthwhile for the existing fan-base, the long term would not be financially attractive to a publishing company.
Now having said that, despite the necessity of progress, it can and should be done in story and setting consistent way. Not that the designers would have to take every detail into account (it would put people like George Krashos, Eric Boyd, Tom Costa & co without work  ), but some blatant ignorance of the greater whole that is Faerűn and which would appear to come our way is not the right way to bring this progress either.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 01:57:30
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From James Wyatt's journal that was posted today.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13980465#post13980465
"As I said yesterday, I was very pleased to be the one who got to make the announcement about our change in plans for Eberron. I'm disappointed, though, that it has resulted in my being lauded as a hero while Rich Baker is being raked over the coals on the FR boards and mailing lists.
Rich spends more time on FR stuff than I do, and I spend more time on Eberron stuff than he does. But he and I are part of the same team, and we're on the same page with the decisions that are being made.
To start with, his post about demons and devils: That’s not entirely his doing. The idea of distinguishing demons from devils is something that goes back to the very first stages of Fourth Edition design. Rich is part of the story team I lead, and I was a part of, and supportive of, every decision about demons and devils he made.
Similarly, he's not the sole architect of the changes to the Forgotten Realms. Over two years ago, Rich, Bruce Cordell, and Phil Athans from our book department sat down together and hashed out the plan that’s beginning now to bear fruit. At GenCon 2005, the authors who are writing the novels that describe these changes (including Ed Greenwood) came to a top-secret meeting to discuss them. And in the end, it was a plan that was formulated and executed by our whole department, all the way up to Bill Slavicsek, and in consultation with the D&D Brand team.
The fact (unfortunate though it may be) is that Eberron and the Forgotten Realms are two different beasts.
Eberron is still a relatively new setting, and from the start it has taken a very PC-centered approach to events in the world. There aren’t a ton of high-level NPCs running around, doing the things that PCs should be doing. There haven't been world-shattering events that altered the world and demanded timeline advancement. Its novel line has told stories within the context of the setting without dramatically altering the setting. And its lore consists of a campaign setting book and maybe a dozen sourcebooks.
The Forgotten Realms is steeped in tradition. The setting is nearly as old as D&D is, and its lore consists of thousands of pages of printed material. We recently had the great pleasure of publishing a Grand History of the Realms that was compiled by a devoted fan, turning his hard work into a beautiful product that serves as an excellent compendium of much of that lore. That history includes the Time of Troubles, which served to explain the transition from First Edition AD&D rules to Second Edition. Realms-shaking events have been a staple of the FR novel line, and we've worked hard in the past to make sure that events in novels and events in game product stay in sync with each other. (Judging by the fact that I still hear stories about City of the Spider Queen every time I go to GenCon, I have to figure that a lot of those efforts have been very successful.)
In the Forgotten Realms, we have to account for the fact that fans will get up in arms when the game changes how infravision (now darkvision) works, because it makes certain passages in the first Drizzt novels nonsensical. We have to consider how our changes to the cosmology will affect the story told in the War of the Spider Queen books.
And I'm not saying that’s a bad thing. We love FR—really, we do. And we're making the changes we're making because we love it.
FR fans, we do hear you, too.
Just last week, my team (me, Rich, Bruce, Chris Sims, and Chris Perkins, who's my boss) had a long conversation about the changes we're making to the Forgotten Realms. We asked ourselves some hard questions about the direction we're taking, based on the questions you folks are raising. We discussed the directions that Rich and Bruce are exploring in the novels they're writing now, and talked about making sure that the new FR still feels like the FR we all know and love.
So we're not ignoring you. We just have to respond to you in a different way than we responded to the Eberron fans.
Partly that's because, quite frankly, we haven't started work on the new Eberron campaign setting. We've had meetings with Keith to talk about new directions, and he and I have both explored some new directions in our novels, but Eberron has a fundamentally different approach to its novel lines. He and I can tell our stories and let you tell your stories, and nobody has to worry about whether they're the same stories. We can change our tentative plans for the new Eberron book a lot more easily than we can change our FR plans.
For the Forgotten Realms, the decision has been made. It wasn't made in a vacuum, it wasn't made without any input from outside these walls, and it wasn't made lightly. We expected that there would be some outcry, especially during this period between when the word got out and when you get to see the new setting. But we're still confident that this was the right decision, and pretty excited for you to see what we're doing.
Why? Because our goal from the start has been to create the best Forgotten Realms campaign guide we could—the best setting for your game. It's a setting that new players can approach with wonder, enjoying what's there without worrying about what used to be. And it's a setting that you established fans can approach with a renewed sense of wonder, recognizing the Realms that you love so much in its newest incarnation. We think you folks will enjoy the story of the transitions, the fantastic events that have changed the face of the world—but not its heart." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 04:14:49
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| Well I was going to quote that but you beat me to it, so in effect "me, Rich, Bruce, Chris Sims, and Chris Perkins" decided to break the Realms to make a better one. *shrugs* All I can say to them is try to at least offer some signs of a better Realms. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 05:47:35
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| Well, if there is one silver lining, its that a lot of fans seem upset, both by the designers own admission and due to the fact that they seem to need to defend the decision. Not much of a consolation, but sometimes I wonder if there is a massive group of fans that were calling for these changes and I'm just not in touch with the "real" fanbase. |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 06:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Well, if there is one silver lining, its that a lot of fans seem upset, both by the designers own admission and due to the fact that they seem to need to defend the decision. Not much of a consolation, but sometimes I wonder if there is a massive group of fans that were calling for these changes and I'm just not in touch with the "real" fanbase.
read some of the other forums. They seem populated by people who dislike FR. Many are supporting the "reboot" to FR, but will only purchase it if the new FR is not tied to the novels. It is, so they won't. It seems to many of them want the FR to go down. I got tired of talking on them so I stay quiet, now. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 08:04:38
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In the hopes that James Wyatt, Rich Baker, and the other folks designing 4e FR read this:
Dear designers (or folks),
the Realms aren't broken, not really. What is broken is the issue of RSEs every year. RSEs haven't been a Realms-staple since the old grey box was released, and if you look at the RSEs released during TSR's reign, you'll see that there are one and a half, namely the Time of Troubles and the Tuigan invasion, with the ToT actually being the only real one, since the Tuigans didn't change the situation that much.
If you folks focused on good stories for the story's sake and not for the RSE-sake, you would not be in that much trouble, and if you look at the one novel-line that really rakes in the $$$ you'll see that R.A. Salvatore's work has NOT affected the Realms in a so tremendously profound way that it can even remotely be called a RSE.
Stop making RSEs, start making good adventures and get stories out there that do not require the world to change at the end of every third book. You have the superhero syndrome...of your own making, now find the right cure!
That's all, folks |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 11:51:17
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| Create the best Forgotten Realms campaign guide they could ? And I thought that that was what Ed has done a couple of times already. And why is it necessary to change the setting to make it "better" And how come it seems impossible for me to shut up even though these changes will have zero effect on "my" Realms? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 13:59:55
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| One can still hope...although I doubt they will "get" it. D&D is becoming more of a Collectible RPG than anything else... and if their mindset was really geared toward making it the "best" Realms, they would start taking pointers from others... if Lucas had listened to, and paid attention to, the fans and their wishes the prequels would have been great...so, with this mindset of WOTC's designers, the Forgotten Realms will become mediocre, at best |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 14:56:28
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quote:
There is, let's face it, too much bloody info. A newbie, especially one who has never really played any Realms game, aside from maybe a console BG thing, will be FRIGHTENED to actually touch that campaign setting, there is just so much to know and read
Uh huh. I had never played in the Realms, save for Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Nights. I then picked up the FRCS, and loved it. Sure wasn't frightened! A good campaign setting book should be the perfect introduction to the setting, but also full of depth for DM's to run the setting. Which the FRCS is.  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 15:32:18
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Regarding James's recent blog posts:
I appreciate his making public who is behind all this, and acknowledging that current fans (and not just a few vocal posters) don't want their world battered about.quote:
There aren’t a ton of high-level NPCs running around, doing the things that PCs should be doing.
This correctly expresses a difference between the Realms and Eberron, in that the latter is specifically designed so there isn't a lot of high-level stuff around the PCs. But how do we interpret that 'should'? James isn't saying 'PCs, whether yours or other groups', should be the only ones in the whole world adventuring and fighting evil', because that would be ridiculous.quote:
There haven't been world-shattering events that altered the world and demanded timeline advancement.
No, the Realms' world-shattering events and timeline advancement are part of the same deliberate policy.
Is James saying this precedent in itself justifies shattering the world even more, or that it's a problem that needs fixing . . . by shattering the world even more? Both?quote:
In the Forgotten Realms, we have to account for the fact that fans will get up in arms when the game changes how infravision (now darkvision) works, because it makes certain passages in the first Drizzt novels nonsensical.
No, you decided to impose rules changes on the setting, without need or justification.quote:
Why? Because our goal from the start has been to create the best Forgotten Realms campaign guide we could—the best setting for your game.
. . .
We think you folks will enjoy the story of the transitions, the fantastic events that have changed the face of the world—but not its heart.
Almost everything written for RPGs is pedagogically primitive. There's little really good advice on how to GM, build worlds, craft scenarios; setting sourcebooks lay out information with little thought to structure and how newcomers will learn it. (There are partial historical and commercial reasons for this.)
Here, Wizards is seemingly just giving up.
So when a setting is developed to a certain point -- that is, in the Realms' case, successful in one of its own aims -- since Wizards can't or won't explain it as teachers in far more complex fields do, the solution is apparently to cull it, to discard large parts of its body in the hope that they can reconstitute it into something simpler and more accessible -- like a shamanic dismemberment and resurrection -- that both retains its spirit and is a better setting than Ed's? By what precedent or reasoning are we to think they might do this successfully?quote:
It's a setting that new players can approach with wonder, enjoying what's there without worrying about what used to be.
Sadly, you picked a world to do this to that esteems remembering what used to be as a great moral virtue, as most directly and profoundly expressed in Elminster in Hell, which has a weird new resonance now.
And are you claiming that not 'worrying about what used to be' facilitates wonder for new players? If so, how? If not, what does?
(Mace, there's no comparison between a creator's unfolding vision and people other than a creator changing it. Worldbuilding by popular acclaim works no better than worldbuilding by committee.) |
Edited by - Faraer on 05 Oct 2007 20:46:29 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 16:33:35
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Rich's newest WOTC FR forum posts.
"Short answer: Yes, the novels will continue to be canon. We view the Realms as a living, evolving world, and we're going to continue to advance the storyline.
Slightly longer answer: We recognize that several of the stories we've told lately in the novels have been pretty major Realms-Shaking-Events, and I think it's our intent to slow down just a little on that. I can't completely speak for our Books team, but I believe that we're going to take our time and show off/explore our new "snapshot" of the Realms a bit. I know my own new novel series (Blades of the Moonsea, plug, plug) is a much more localized, character-driven story than Last Mythal was.
Any mechanical elements suggested or introduced by our novelists are going to go through our normal design and development process before they become part of the game. If someone writes a book about frost giant heroes, well, you won't have to worry about broken frost giants stomping all over your game. Our developers wouldn't stand for it."
and
"No novel series specifically "cover" the Spellplague, but we have several series currently in progress that will span "over" it and incorporate its effects. In other words, you'll see snapshots of the Spellplague in a number of different books. As it turns out my own new trilogy takes place completely post-Spellplague, but some of our other current series will touch on it more -- for example, Richard Byers' Thay series and Thomas Reid's Kaanyr Vhok series (don't have my books in front of me, so forgive me for not using the proper series titles)."
and
"Now, how the heck am I supposed to answer that?
If I say yes, you'll say "AHA! I KNEW IT!"
If I say no, you'll say, "All right then, so exactly what IS the 4e WotC way of saying You're fired!?"
It's the old "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" saw.
Come on, guys! I'm trying to be a stand-up guy here and give you the most honest and direct answers I can to your questions and concerns. This kind of stuff doesn't help.
And, for the record: I've been with TSR/WotC since 1991. My first Realms product was Dalelands, published back in 1993. I had my hand in every FR product from 2000 until 2005, and the odd one or two since then. And I've written 7 Realms novels (heck, 8 counting the one I just finished that isn't published yet). I think I've established some "cred" with the Realms. Sorry to sound defensive, but sheesh!"
and
"OK, let me take another shot at answering some of John's concerns...
Q.. Why does the world have to be reworked to match the new magic rules?
As I said... the workings of magic in the Realms are *thoroughly* described in hundreds of books and game products. If magic changes, we can either RetCon it or we can posit a world event to explain it. Magic *will* change because FR 4e is going to use the D&D 4th Edition rules, and there are changes in the way D&D handles magic. If nothing else, wizards now have access to renewable (or per-encounter) and at-will spells. Now, for all purposes, wizards *already had this* in Realms fiction for years. When a wizard character needed a fireball, like as not the author would have him throw a fireball. So I view this as a change that actually "squares" the game rules better with the Realms fiction we've seen for years. But it is different, and it deserves a better explanation than "it was always this way."
Q. What were the old bad ideas?
I'm not eager to answer this question, because I can't do it without bashing the work of other designers and authors. I'll pick on one of my own: the Shadow Weave. It's fiddly, it's complex, and it's really intended to provide DMs with a fig leaf of explanation for a check on Mystra's otherwise absolute power in the setting. With a different take on magic and the goddess of magic in the setting, the necessity of a Shadow Weave diminishes drastically. It's something we can live without. There are several other glaring examples (at least to me) but I'm not picking on any others in this forum.
3. Can I give you any hope?
I don't know --what would give you hope? I can't take away the Spellplague and I can't promise not to inflict 4e rules on the Realms. They're kinda done deals at this point, for good reason. But I can promise you that we're working hard to present a really riveting, exciting, and innovative vision of the Forgotten Realms, one that grows as organically as possible from all the work we've done before but shows old-timers scads of new vistas to explore. And I'm going to tell you everything I can about what we're up to as soon as I'm allowed to, but I can't give away the whole movie in our preview, or else I won't have anything left to knock your socks off with." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 17:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
One can still hope...although I doubt they will "get" it. D&D is becoming more of a Collectible RPG than anything else... and if their mindset was really geared toward making it the "best" Realms, they would start taking pointers from others... if Lucas had listened to, and paid attention to, the fans and their wishes the prequels would have been great...so, with this mindset of WOTC's designers, the Forgotten Realms will become mediocre, at best
Well, I must admit that I like the prequels (except for a few minor complaints). I don't like this though; it might become a great setting judged on its own, but it will not be the setting I have an attachment to. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 05 Oct 2007 17:45:14 |
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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 19:41:54
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I think they could've forced Mystra into changing the weave, instead of killing her and removing it completely.
Why they diminish the different pantheons, I don't understand. If you play an all-dwarven or all-drow campaign, you want to be able to relate to relevant deities. The pantheons are there, since the races they govern consider them as their own.
If they have to put out deities, at least kill non-exclusive deities.
You know, perhaps Midnight just wanted to experiment with the weave to make it more accessible, and kaboom, she accidentally created a dissonance that affected users of the old way (the Spellplague), while still imposing the changes upon it.
That way, the old system still would've been in effect (with some penalties, as Mystra doesn't "support" it, and the changes she brought upon it). However, since Mystra made the new system more accessible, more wizards give up the old ways in favor of the simplicity of the new.
After all, with the previous tearing, I feel that Mystra should've planned something to restore it fully. The 4e system could've been her solution. Now it's her -and most of the realms'- death.
I can't see how it is possible to motivate her death, not even if Shar is behind it. (even though I didn't really like Midnight)
That way, they could've killed both wild magic and anti-magic zones in one blow, or at least kept the new "reinforced" system unaffected by the effects of (previous) Mystra's death.
Midnight should've been bright enough to have (with Azuth's help) changed the Weave and restored it to full power.
Edit: Yes, I speak in past tense. After all, Mystra is already dead in the "real" (canon) FR, even if she isn't in many of its facets.
Edit2: I'm going to formulate myself better in another post. |
Edited by - Aewrik on 05 Oct 2007 20:07:03 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 22:39:54
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It's ironic...the entire firing the fan-base BS. I try to make an analogy to music:
I've been an Iron Maiden fan for the better part of 20 years (yep that dates me! And I'm proud of it), if, say, Maiden were to change their style, become a more drum-bass, hip-hop whatever kinda band to appeal to a new audience, I'd quit... BUT Maiden will not do it, because they still are selling out every venue they play at and their albums sell equally well.
wotc wants to play jazz...sad |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 00:14:39
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Rich answered some more posts today.
"I can't answer all your questions or respond to each remark, simply because my bosses want me to keep some of this stuff under my hat for now. I'll tell you more when I'm allowed to say more (and if nothing else, the conversations of the last couple of days have convinced me that it's time to reexamine our schedule of releasing peeks and previews for FR).
Anyway, why is Mystra dead? OK, several reasons, some in-world, some meta-management...
1. It's an appropriate (if grim) finish to the story of Cyric's betrayal begun in the Time of Troubles series. Time to move on and tell new stories about Cyric.
2. It's an appropriate (if grim) finish to the story of Shar's jealousy and desire to seize the portfolio of magic. Time to move on and tell new stories about Shar.
3. We know magic's changing anyway, and it seems like a stretch to say that Mystra would make that change herself. This way we don't have to explain why she would do such a thing. The answer's logical: She wouldn't, but if she's dead then it's completely out of her hands.
4. Many people--players as well as game designers and authors--perceived that Mystra (and her Chosen) were simply too strong. She's seen as far and away the most powerful deity, and her Chosen are clearly the most powerful heroes. Authors actually have to deliberately account for each of the Chosen when they're telling big stories and explain what they're doing or what they're not doing and why.
5. Some Chosen will still be around post-Spellplague, but we really do want to get them out of the spotlight and get your PCs (on the game side) or less superheroic characters (on the novel side) into the picture.
Obviously, you don't share these perceptions; I'm sorry we're not moving in the direction you'd like to see us go, but we're pretty sure that it'll be a better setting when magic isn't the purview of one deity and her Chosen aren't the toughest mortals on the planet. We do have our reasons, even if you don't agree with them." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 06:40:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I missed this quote yesterday from Rich since I was gone most of the day.
"Please don't misquote me. You need to read my post more carefully: I said that FR *would* be broken *if* it became an ossified setting played only by a diminishing audience of old-timers.
I think there's a risk of that now. In fact there's been a risk of that for some years now, and we've seen evidence that not as many new D&D players make the jump into Realms as we'd like. From the point of view of longtime Realms players, of course FR ain't broke. From the point of view of new players who might be interested in Realms but aren't coming on over, well, I'm not so sure. Which is why I don't know that I would agree with the sentiment "if it ain't broke, don't fix it.""
With all the RSEs happening, lately, I don't understand how the setting is at risk of becoming ossified... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 06:46:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Create the best Forgotten Realms campaign guide they could ? And I thought that that was what Ed has done a couple of times already. And why is it necessary to change the setting to make it "better" And how come it seems impossible for me to shut up even though these changes will have zero effect on "my" Realms?
Heh, I've been asking myself those same questions.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 06:54:25
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Rich's newest journal entry.
"On a different topic... I've been taking a real pasting on a couple of our message boards lately from irate Forgotten Realms fans. James wrote a very nice explanation/defense of what I've been up to (see James Wyatt's blog if you're interested), and I've been trying to figure out what I might add to that. I guess I'll add this:
If it was my goal to avoid criticism, here's what I would do: I'd tell you that I've decided to adopt every suggestion offered by folks currently expressing their dissatisfaction. I'd say that it's going to take a couple of months for me to go back and scrap existingRealms 4e work, so I won't be able to divulge details for quite a while while I try to atone for my stupidity. Then I'd do nothing at all and see how long it takes before people started asking me how it's going. It would buy me several months of no criticism, wouldn't it?
But it's not my goal to avoid criticism. I believe that the right thing to do is tell the truth, or say nothing at all. So that means that sometimes I'll say things that folks don't want to hear. When someone says "Don't drop 4e rules into the Realms, you'll screw up my campaign!" I'm only being honest when I say that it's just not an option to not bring Realms in line with the new D&D rules. I can't imagine what could possibly make us revisit that decision, so I'm just going to tell people what to expect instead of ducking the question or fibbing about what we're up to.
It's not that I'm not hearing you, it's not that I'm being condescending or patronizing or insulting or whatever other sinister spin I'm accused of laying down on the reader -- I'm just trying to let folks know in the most forthright and unambiguous way I can that we're committed on that particular part of the plan, and we're pretty sure that it's the right way to go for us, for D&D, for the Realms, and for (what we hope are) the vast majority of FR fans.
That's all I'm going to say on this score, because I really don't want to spend my blog space and time playing defense. I'd rather be looking to spill as many teasers, sneak peeks, and exciting tidbits as I can without getting my boss mad at me." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 07:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
It's ironic...the entire firing the fan-base BS. I try to make an analogy to music:
I've been an Iron Maiden fan for the better part of 20 years (yep that dates me! And I'm proud of it), if, say, Maiden were to change their style, become a more drum-bass, hip-hop whatever kinda band to appeal to a new audience, I'd quit... BUT Maiden will not do it, because they still are selling out every venue they play at and their albums sell equally well.
wotc wants to play jazz...sad
Well, as I only like the pre-Dickinson material I would say that they lost it a long time ago. The same goes for the Realms; I love the old TSR material, but get little pleasure out of most of the newer books. The experiments done with 3ed. worked for the Realms as a product line (as did the lineup changes for Maiden), but even then some fans where left behind as the changes to them where major and negative. Most likely this will be another case of the same, but with an even larger group of older fans staying behind with the version they have used for years.
So, a revival of Ad&D or a reunion with Paul Di'Anno would interest me, but I am in a minority even here. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 15:39:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
It's ironic...the entire firing the fan-base BS. I try to make an analogy to music:
I've been an Iron Maiden fan for the better part of 20 years (yep that dates me! And I'm proud of it), if, say, Maiden were to change their style, become a more drum-bass, hip-hop whatever kinda band to appeal to a new audience, I'd quit... BUT Maiden will not do it, because they still are selling out every venue they play at and their albums sell equally well.
wotc wants to play jazz...sad
Excellent comparation, brother dwarf! 
As a Maiden fan and Realms fan, I think that you explain exactly my feels about the matter, too.
Chosen of Moradin
(that at least have the Iron Maiden collection complete!
Now... about the Realms...  )
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 18:25:37
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quote:
Rich Baker wrote: "On a different topic... I've been taking a real pasting on a couple of our message boards lately from irate Forgotten Realms fans.....
Isn't the tradition to 'Shoot the Messenger' when the news is unwelcome or bad. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 18:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria
quote:
Rich Baker wrote: "On a different topic... I've been taking a real pasting on a couple of our message boards lately from irate Forgotten Realms fans.....
Isn't the tradition to 'Shoot the Messenger' when the news is unwelcome or bad.
He is not a messenger, he is part of the Design team that promotes points of light campaigns. It has not been him saying WotC decided on Points of Lights, it was we (five people, IIRC) decided that 4th should be points of lights. I will grant he also said existing campaign worlds would not become as much points of light as the gerneric setting. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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4e FR
