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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 21:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen in "Forgotten Realms RPG Products," but never answered, so moved here, instead:
(I thought that I had posted this previously, but the Search function doesn't show it. In either case I have added a paragraph at the end.)
Daniel Rosenquist tells us (in The Imaskar Empire, here at Candlekeep) that southern steppe dialects are closer to ancient Roushoum than other dialects of the descendants of the Imaskari and their slaves, but that the southern dialects have "adopted much from Muhjuri." Given that the known Imaskarcana are rather fussy about how they ought to be addressed, what are (probably) the safest rules of pronunciation for Roushoum when dealing with Imaskari ruins and relics? Will someone knowledgeable about the Imaskari please let us know? This is going to be important to my players sometime soon. Heheheheheh....
(I have seen the pages on eastern languages in The Horde boxed set, and I have the Dragon Annual article on "Linguistics of Faerun," so, as far as I am concerned, be technical in your reply, if you feel it is necessary.)
Part the Second:
I happened to come across a quotation from Elminster published by some sage named Schend, which ends with these words: "Of course ye can only get answers from it if ye know the tongue of the Imaskari, for it only recognizes that tongue. There be only one Faerunian living or dead who might teach it to ye, and he's hardly the one to welcome you to a lesson while he wanders about the Underhalls...."
Be he Halaster Blackcloak, by any chance?
Apropos of dead Faerunians, would it be possible, through long and oft-repeated sessions of speak with dead, or some such thing, to interrogate some old Imaskari's remnants on Toril and so learn the niceties of Roushoum pronunciation? If so, I can see what a long adventure or three might be entailed in learning where such a one might be buried, verifying that s/he and his interrogator have at least one language in common, and making absolutely certain that the deceased's pronunciation isn't marred by a general decay of the organs of speech. (It would be sooo embarrassing to address one of the Imaskarcana and then discover -- too late! -- that the word "bwal" was spoken to it merely because the deceased informant's lips were a bit on the over-ripe side, and it had meant to say "ball!" I don't think that any of the Imaskarcana would be amused by such a droll little error....)
(Edit, October 2008: "Roushum" changed to "Roushoum.")
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 15 Oct 2008 02:05:44
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 21:33:54
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| Yes, it's Halaster and this was finally answered, without being vague, in Dragons of Faerun. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:07:33
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| But, I would expect that you could also learn it from the folk of Deep Imaskar.... if you knew they existed, which Elminster doesn't seem to know (or isn't going to let on about). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:27:45
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| Aye, but at the time that passage was written, Deep Imaskari didn't exist. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 23:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But, I would expect that you could also learn it from the folk of Deep Imaskar.... if you knew they existed, which Elminster doesn't seem to know (or isn't going to let on about).
As far as I know, nobody in Faerun is able to think of an Imaskari surviver state since the great seal still lets anybody on Toril or any adjoining plane that the Imaskari are all utterly gone. So maybe even Elminster does not know about this particular city unless Mystra somehow protected him against the overwhelming suggestion effect of the great seal. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 00:10:08
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Elminster could have known about them, and failed to mention them because either a) he thought it was better to leave it a secret, or b) he didn't consider them Faerűnian.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2007 : 01:54:00
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Thank you to those who've replied. My e-mail was backed up and I haven't seen the responses until today.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2007 : 01:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Yes, it's Halaster and this was finally answered, without being vague, in Dragons of Faerun.
Where? 
I have that tome but do not remember anything about Halaster other then the stuff under Iryklathagra, "Sharpfangs".
Also, there were several Imaskari 'Survivor States' - Solon and Ra-Khati, not to mention Mulhorand itself. The Mulan probably spoke the 'slave tongue', and Solon was said to speak a different language entirely (Devic, which was most likely the language of the Mar), and Ra-Khati is said to speak Shou (at least now). Even so, the Tuigan all speak different dialects of Imaskari.
Now that I think about it though, not even Deep Imaskar would be pronouncing the words the same after 4000 years.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jul 2007 01:50:13 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2007 : 02:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Yes, it's Halaster and this was finally answered, without being vague, in Dragons of Faerun.
Where?
The info starts on page 135, in the Kuraltaar the Demonshield write up. It expands, and clarifies, on what Steven wrote so many years ago in the Undermountain module and on the FR mailing list. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jul 2007 02:10:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2007 : 03:33:33
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Thanks for the quick reply. 
I started to reread it from the beginning. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2007 : 00:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now that I think about it though, not even Deep Imaskar would be pronouncing the words the same after 4000 years.
I agree--languages evolve over time, and I don't think that should be different for the Imaskari. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Jul 2007 00:13:28 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2007 : 05:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
The info starts on page 135, in the Kuraltaar the Demonshield write up. It expands, and clarifies, on what Steven wrote so many years ago in the Undermountain module and on the FR mailing list.
Thank you for that info. I have searched DoF for myself but was able to find the relevant chapter which belongs to a part of the book I havn't read yet.  |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2007 : 06:12:29
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| No prob. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2007 : 15:25:19
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If you wish to learn ancient Imaskari, head east to Ra-Khati and make peace with the undead legions that occupy that nation.  |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 17:35:12
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Thats got to be a hint.
I thought I've read EVERYTHING on Ra-Khati (there isn't all that much, except for whats in The Horde and the three modules set there, but I don't remember ANYTHING about that!
Did Devayam finally succeed? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 00:44:53
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| I knew you would be the one to pick up on that comment Markus. But for now all I can say is... NDA |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 18:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now that I think about it though, not even Deep Imaskar would be pronouncing the words the same after 4000 years.
I agree--languages evolve over time, and I don't think that should be different for the Imaskari.
I just started reading Darkvision, and in the second or third chapter Ususi reflects that "ancient" Imaskari she finds on a monument may differ from what she knows (and she knows a lot -- a regular Vaarsuvius, in fact). The inscription, incidentally, roughly translates to, "Authorized personnel only. All others keep out ... or else!" -- very Imaskari, no?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 15 Oct 2008 01:46:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 18:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jamallo, I believe you mean Darkvision. 
Yes, you're quite right. I realized my mistake when I got home, but haven't been online since then to correct the error (which I've now done).
It's really a "good read!" I regret having to put it down, even though I'm going through it in 30 page blocks. I hope that there will be an Imaskari history or adventure book coming from WotC soon. I've heard that the Arcane Age novel line didn't do to well, but I, personally, would love to see a trio or quartet of novels (by experienced Realms novelists, please!) covering the Imaskari rise, their seizing of the Mulan, their defeat, and their retreat (with perhaps a final book bringing them in 1375).
Off-topic, is there a write-up somewhere of the "geomancer" as portrayed in Darkvision? It's nothing like the prestige class of the same name in the Complete Whateveritscalled. If there is such a write-up, would someone please direct me to it? (Or is it substantially the same as the "Earth Caller," but with a name which may have been lost in an editorial shuffle of different product lines?) But: *No spoilers on this scroll, please!*
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 01:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Off-topic, is there a write-up somewhere of the "geomancer" as portrayed in Darkvision? It's nothing like the prestige class of the same name in the Complete Whateveritscalled.
The Geomancer PrC was updated to 3.5e in Complete Divine.
quote:
If there is such a write-up, would someone please direct me to it? (Or is it substantially the same as the "Earth Caller," but with a name which may have been lost in an editorial shuffle of different product lines?) But: *No spoilers on this scroll, please!*
I'm not entirely sure. I'll defer this question to other scribes who may be more well-versed in Realms/D&D rules-related questions, than I currently am.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jul 2007 01:02:22 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 21:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Off-topic, is there a write-up somewhere of the "geomancer" as portrayed in Darkvision? It's nothing like the prestige class of the same name in the Complete Whateveritscalled.
The Geomancer PrC was updated to 3.5e in Complete Divine.
(snip)
I'll check, Sage. I haven't my book at hand now. I hope that's not the class which has its practioners gradually transform into elemental monsters, earning "benefits" exactly like the curses acquired in Ravenloft. That seems an undignified thing for a dwarf do become!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 23:09:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I'll check, Sage. I haven't my book at hand now. I hope that's not the class which has its practioners gradually transform into elemental monsters, earning "benefits" exactly like the curses acquired in Ravenloft. That seems an undignified thing for a dwarf do become!
From the book page 41 “As the geomancer progresses, however the effort to gathering magic through the earth takes a physical toll on him, making him more and more like the land and its creatures." |
Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 19:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by turox
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I'll check, Sage. I haven't my book at hand now. I hope that's not the class which has its practioners gradually transform into elemental monsters, earning "benefits" exactly like the curses acquired in Ravenloft. That seems an undignified thing for a dwarf do become!
From the book page 41 “As the geomancer progresses, however the effort to gathering magic through the earth takes a physical toll on him, making him more and more like the land and its creatures."
Thanks, turox. I have read the description in Complete Divine, but I haven't finished Darkvision; so please don't post any spoilers here, folks(!), yet I couldn't help noticing that Prince Monolith casually mentions the word "horn" in relation to the Dwarven geomancer. A Dwarf with antlers ... too creepy!
(And yes, yes, I know that there is a difference between a "horn" and an "antler," but a geomancer might wind up with either. *sigh* ... Our hero with antlers like Cyric's Chosen or with a unicorn horn ... it's not how I would picture either Gimli or Bruennor Battlehammer -- nor Sleepy, Dopey, Grumpy, or any other Dwarf!)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 01:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe he meant to say "horny"...
He's travelling with an Elfette who's a drunkard but won't put out ... I don't think so!
I'm on tenterhooks to find out what's in Adama's Tooth. I hopeI'll be able to finish Darkvision on Tuesday.
I'll try to refrain from any more comments or questions about Roushum (or geomancers!) until I have finished it.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 23:57:27
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On pp 217-218 of Darkvision, Bruce Cordell says, "The words were an archaic form of the Imaskaran tongue that Ususi had assumed was remembered only behind the Great Seal."
If we accept that as canonical, then the Deep Imaskari almost certainly can pronounce Roushum in a dialect which the Imaskarcana can recognize. (I think of it as similar to the difference between "Church Latin" and Classical Latin -- mutually comprehensible, but with slight differences in pronunciation and vocabulary.)
As for El's comment, I think all three options are viable: (1) he didn't know about Deep Imaskar, or (2) he didn't consider them Faerunians, or (3) he was ... ah ... "bending" the truth to suit Mystra's purposes.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Pronouncing Roushoum
