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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 22:10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My coworkers and I were talking about this over lunch. I could be seeing it all wrong (and I could be taking some extreme leaps of thought), but see if this makes sense. TSR tanks in 2000 and is pulled out of their issues by WotC. WotC wants to see Dragon and Dungeon live, but doesn't want to have to fund it. So Paizo comes out around the time of 3E (trying to think back of which came first). 3E takes off like a rocket.
The timing is wrong. TSR began to tank in 1996 and would have gone under entirely in 1997 if WotC hadn't used all that money from Magic to buy them. WotC, in turn, was bought by Hasbro in 1999 (and thus, once again, evil non-gamers gained control over D&D). 3E came out in Augist of 2000. Paizo was split off with Dragon and Dungeon in 2002.
Incidentally, Dragon and Dungeon ceased publication in 1996 for a while, though that was unplanned and explained away as a "problem with the printer" (The "problem" being that the printer wanted to be paid and TSR didn't have the cash).
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 22:32:14
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Plus it was still an official magazine because the staff between both companies had weekly meetings (we were told this at Gencon 06), which is why every issue is tagged with "100% Official D&D material." And over the years the editors have said the same thing about it being official. So, Dragon/Dungeon was really not 3rd party material.
People also seem to forget that WOTC had it for awhile, they were not doing to well, so they gave it to Paizo. Paizo turned it around for the last five years. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Apr 2007 22:34:16 |
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Kaewin
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 23:06:42
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I just saw this and sirned it. Its a petition to save Dragon and Dungeon. Thought I would put it here.
http://www.petitiononline.com/sdadm582/petition.html
sorry I'm not sure how to make it a link |
Magic is not for Parlor Tricks. ~Sparrow Moros, Second Degree Master |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 23:11:10
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I appreciate the sentiment, but I will respectfully bring up two points.
1. Its likely that since everything is in motion, Paizo isn't going to be putting out Dungeon and Dragon again even if WOTC decided to reverse this action. Paizo has thrown everything they have into their Game Mastery and Pathfinder ventures now.
2. A well written, personalized letter sent to WOTC is likely to get more of a response (or at least attention) than a form like this one.
I understand and appreciate both the effort and the sentiment though. Not saying you shouldn't do it, just that I'm not sure this will accomplish much. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2007 : 23:59:40
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People wanted WOTC to respond and so they did:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 01:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, WotC decides that the best thing to do would be to shut down Dungeon Magazine so that they don't have as much competition for their own modules.
If this ends up being even remotely a possibility of being true, I galactically underestimated WotC's stupidity. They'd rather shut down two of their iconic and profitable products because they're concerned over competing against themselves? They are their own products! Heh. How can they be concerned over something they own the rights to? If they're going to pull it back from Paizo, why kill them completely? They'd both be entirely theirs again, wouldn't they? *shakes head*
Their decision is stupifyingly absurd.
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I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 01:43:57
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The just-posted "Reflections on the D&D Magazines" hints strongly that the new online content will be, or be called, Dragon and Dungeon. It could work out great for the Realms and be a more conducive venue for Realmslore than the print magazines, or it could go badly wrong. I think it's another PR miscalculation that Wizards is delaying telling us basics like who'll be editing it. Scott Rouse says he wouldn't do anything that stops people finding D&D, but taking Dragon and Dungeon off newstands is bound to do that.
I'm sad about this ending, sad for Erik and the others at Paizo who put so much into the magazines, though my bookshelves will be glad. |
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imis999
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 01:48:24
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Wow, what a fun ride for me. My first issue was #83 and Baja's Dancing Hut. I remember running it in middle school for a group.
So what's the better deal? The back issues, depending what is available or the downloads from the store? |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 03:02:43
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Well met my fellow Sages,
*coughs, clears throat* The Wizards of the Coast, formerly known as the TSR Empire of Lake Geneva, now of Seattle, have slain the Dragon within the Dungeon.
I have not seen what will replace the Dragon, nor have I seen what will replace the Dungeon. I fear that these venerable beasts will be replaced by pale successors. These successors, led by the ruling council of Hasbro, will be nothing more than dust in the wind.
May the lights of Lathander breathe life into that which has been slain, and all shall be renewed with hope and happiness again.
Thank you for listening,
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 03:52:11
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after reading the article on the WOTC site, it will be interesting to see what they come up with next. I too have utilized both magazines for 20 years. This will just make the issues I have more special  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 10:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Aye, my only gaming magazine fix now will be White Dwarf 
Actually, I've been growing increasingly disappointed with the quality of White Dwarf over the last few months -- the number of lore-related articles seems to be decreasing with each successive issue.
I'm seriously considering stopping my subscription, in fact.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 14:20:37
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'Actually, I've been growing increasingly disappointed with the quality of White Dwarf over the last few months -- the number of lore-related articles seems to be decreasing with each successive issue.'
ayup.
more and more, it's getting to be simply a monthly mail order catalogue. |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 15:40:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Mazrim_Taim
And to think I just subscribed to this wonderful magazine a few months ago. I've enjoyed it immensley so far, and am sad to see it go. 
Same here...
I'm with Wooly on that I prefer my RPG stuff in printed format, for I refuse to drag my PC to the gaming table... moreover, I would be surprised if Wizards are going to offer the online stuff at a fair price, especially if you count in the costs of printing out the material, or if they will offer printer friendly versions of said material.
First Ravenloft gets the axe, then Code Monkeys, now Paizo, makes me wonder if DragonLance, and thus Margaret Weis, is the next on the list... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 16:31:53
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Paizo has posted a bit more info, in the form of a FAQ: http://paizo.com/transition/faq&source=mailing
I find one particular bit noteworthy:
quote:
Will the final issues of the magazines include any special content?
Most definitely! With more than 50 years of history between them, we couldn’t let these fantastic magazines go out without a bang. Both will be special oversized issues. Dragon will feature two commemorative posters and a cover by Larry Elmore, and Dungeon’s gatefold cover will feature all 11 Paizo “iconics” in a scene painted by Wayne Reynolds. Dungeon #150 will also include a complete index of all adventures ever published in the magazine. Dragon #359 will include a special feature exploring the greatest “unsolved mysteries” of D&D, we’ll enjoy another installment of the Demonomicon, and no doubt some of our faithful contributors throughout the years will want to include some special memories for the historic final issues of these venerable magazines. Keep your eyes on paizo.com for announcements of additional special content.
Need I tell anyone that I'm excited about the Larry Elmore artwork? 
I've also decided to make this topic sticky, for the time being. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 22:28:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The just-posted "Reflections on the D&D Magazines" hints strongly that the new online content will be, or be called, Dragon and Dungeon. It could work out great for the Realms and be a more conducive venue for Realmslore than the print magazines, or it could go badly wrong. I think it's another PR miscalculation that Wizards is delaying telling us basics like who'll be editing it. Scott Rouse says he wouldn't do anything that stops people finding D&D, but taking Dragon and Dungeon off newstands is bound to do that.
I'm sad about this ending, sad for Erik and the others at Paizo who put so much into the magazines, though my bookshelves will be glad.
It sounds like you're right about the title, talking about 'the next incarnation'.
I also agree about the fact it could be good for the Realms - I tend to buy Dragon for the Realms content and have actually bought quite a few over the last couple of years (Eric's Cormanthor timeline and planetouched, George's Impiltur, Elaine's New Olamn etc.) - and if the option to buy the contents separately is there, I'm more likely to shell out.
I'm also with you on a PR front - they'd save themselves a lot of hassle and there would have probably been less of a backlash (though with any change there will always be some who get upset) if they had actually announced some more specifics about the new online content along with the announcement.
The fact it is no longer going to be on the shelves with other magazines makes it harder for people to stumble across, so to me that restricts the number of people who are going to see the content. I wonder if they'll preview stuff too, often someone can be sold on whether or not they want to pick something up by having a flick through it first.
And I'm certainly with everybody else who's mentioned WotC's unreliability when it comes to web content, from their reorganisation of things to the infrequency of new FR articles at present. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 23:35:46
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Finally making my way through this thread. As one of the new folks veteran to Candlekeep but fairly new with published Realmslore in Dragon, it's taken me a little bit to come to terms with the end of the license. Now that that's done, some replies. Probably multiple posts, too. quote:
Originally posted by ijkay
As a related question, has their ever been a up-to-date listing of Dragon and Dungeon magazines which contain FR material. I think the online index may have it but haven't figured out how to print the relevent portion out.
The DragonDex is an excellent resource for finding any particular subject in Dragon. http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/realms.html will show you all of the FR content in Dragon, ever. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 23:37:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
3) No need to cut down authors articles so they fit in the issue as online magazine can have as many pages as needed
This isn't necessarily true. Subjects generally have a wordcount that publishers consider "sufficient for the topic," and going over that wordcount doesn't guarantee that it will all be published, even in a fully electronic format. There's also the consideration of pay; in most cases, authors are paid by the word, so unless a contract includes a set wordcount ("4,000 words") or a warning that exceeding the wordcount won't get you paid more ("if you go over 4,000 words, we're only paying you for 4,000 words"), it simply isn't the case that "authors... can have as many pages as needed." Authors can have as many pages as the company is willing to pay for. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2007 : 23:39:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, and I know some of you may or may not want to support the upcoming online venture, but since this is "the" outlet for anything Realmsian short of whatever sourcebooks or adventures they put out, I thought that I would try to get my two cents in at WOTC in order to influence what and how the material may be presented. It may not do any good, but we'll see. I tried to remain as positive as possible, and I put in plugs for the various articles that have been staples of Dragon for years now. If you are interested in seeing the thread and posting there, it can be found at WOTC's site here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832495
Before I forget, I wanted to mention that I plugged some of our very own Realmslore experts that have gotten published in Dragon and mentioned that I would be very happy if they managed to get tapped to write some of the online content.
Hey, thanks! I still have two more articles coming out before Dragon sees its end, though, so don't despair too much. Still, thank you for the kind words. Hopefully, someone at WotC's listening, and once the transfer is complete and Wizards has the license back, we'll all have a better idea how folks can submit their ideas for inclusion in whatever the new regime is.
I just wonder if George's article is making it in before the cutoff. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 00:06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, and I know some of you may or may not want to support the upcoming online venture, but since this is "the" outlet for anything Realmsian short of whatever sourcebooks or adventures they put out, I thought that I would try to get my two cents in at WOTC in order to influence what and how the material may be presented. It may not do any good, but we'll see. I tried to remain as positive as possible, and I put in plugs for the various articles that have been staples of Dragon for years now. If you are interested in seeing the thread and posting there, it can be found at WOTC's site here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832495
Before I forget, I wanted to mention that I plugged some of our very own Realmslore experts that have gotten published in Dragon and mentioned that I would be very happy if they managed to get tapped to write some of the online content.
Hey, thanks! I still have two more articles coming out before Dragon sees its end, though, so don't despair too much. Still, thank you for the kind words. Hopefully, someone at WotC's listening, and once the transfer is complete and Wizards has the license back, we'll all have a better idea how folks can submit their ideas for inclusion in whatever the new regime is.
I just wonder if George's article is making it in before the cutoff.
I just wanted to make sure I supported people that I know care about the setting and can produce quality Realmslore. Thank you for knowing and caring enough about the Realms to make those contributions.
Unfortunately the uproar over the initial announcement seems to have dwarfed any notice this thread may have received, so I appologize for not timing my thread a little better. I wanted to plug some people that I knew would be good for the Realms, but I think I may have acted a bit too soon. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 22 Apr 2007 00:08:26 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 00:28:29
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They seem to be trying to apply the marketing formula of teasing people with gradually released information, which may work great with mass audiences but not with finite captive ones who are uncertain and upset. This is a time to be frank and human.
The current website problems aren't necessarily indicative of the new service, since part of its purpose is to raise money to increase the currently insufficient web staff. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 04:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The just-posted "Reflections on the D&D Magazines" hints strongly that the new online content will be, or be called, Dragon and Dungeon.
It sounds like you're right about the title, talking about 'the next incarnation'.
It's probably very likely that the online e-mag, or subscription service, or whatever it winds up being termed, will be entitled Dragon or, perhaps even more appropriately, The Dragon.
I'm already seeing visions of the marketing for it, talking about how "The Dragon comes full circle" with issue #360, back to the home of D&D, back to its original name, and its original intent of providing gamers with the support needed for their games. I personally doubt very much that the comics will make it into the new service, and we'll probably see a greater proportion of downloadable handouts (miniatures-scale maps, character images, etc.) than what was seen in the print magazine. There will also probably be a lower art content for subscribers than what's in Dragon presently, because art can be as expensive as an article itself at times.
Then again, it's all just so much speculation. Whatever the dungeon, whatever the dragon, gamers find a way to solve it. It is, after all, what we do. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 04:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I just wanted to make sure I supported people that I know care about the setting and can produce quality Realmslore. Thank you for knowing and caring enough about the Realms to make those contributions.
I'm of the same opinion as a number of others when it comes to the Realms: we are a gifted, fortunate bunch to be able to play in so grand a sandbox and be allowed to have our castles stand up without some bully kicking them over. Thanks are never needed.quote:
Unfortunately the uproar over the initial announcement seems to have dwarfed any notice this thread may have received, so I appologize for not timing my thread a little better. I wanted to plug some people that I knew would be good for the Realms, but I think I may have acted a bit too soon.
It's never too soon to tell a company that you have a preference for one product over another. Picket and poke and do whatever else it takes for the folks over there to notice. WotC has fine folks reading their boards (yes, and these) all the time to figure out what it is people want. They may not always mention or respond, and certainly don't always give people what they've asked for, but they are listening.
Sometimes, anyway. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 06:12:15
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I am of the group that has collected Dragon and Dungeon for many a year. I think I started with one of the chess covers in the double-digit numbered Dragon issues, and have most (missing 2 or 3) Dungeon issues. My first reaction was similar to many here, shock, dismay, and an empty feeling.
I remember years ago going through my collection and making copies of articles I referred to repeatedly to save the integrity of my magazines, especially the covers. I still have it around here somewhere. It was at least 300+ pages, and I still refer to them from time-to-time.
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"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 12:11:26
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As technology advances things are bound to change. For instance, lots of newspapers have gone out of buisness over the last decade because people can get their information instantaneously and easily from 24 hour TV news services and the internet. Newspapers can't really compete with that. In material and production costs it's obviously much cheaper to put the same information out there in electronic form on the internet (note that if users want to print out a hard copy they can do so).
I mean, hey, let's not forget that they're running a business. Businesses exist to make money. In order to be successful the product has to enrich your life in some way, yes. But enriching the consumer's life is not the business's primary reason to exist. A business exists to make its owner as large a profit as possible. That's not a bad thing--it's the mechanism through which you have all your creature comforts and neat luxury stuff. But that said, I share that sense of loss when some feature of life that's consistent, solid, and familar seems to get rendered by "progress" into something much less substantial. There's something a little eerie about it. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 23 Apr 2007 12:12:45 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2007 : 21:07:15
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Mixed emotions? I remember for a time fondly reading Dragon Magazine and the occasional Dungeon, back-ordering issues in an unsuccesful attempt to complete a collection. Then, when I found my D&D interest limited to FR, I lost interest in the magazines, despite subscription issues arriving late to the Netherlands, even when the issue would be on the shelf in stores. Also the waxing and waning of the Realms content did not sit too well and I declined to renew. Yet still it is sad news that the printed version of Dragon and Dungeon will cease.
As to the on-line content and reaching as large an audience as possible (as per Kim Mohan's quote in "Reflections on the D&D Magazines"), I hope WotC fixed their issues with non-US residents ordering. Maybe I am behind the times, but when the downloads first started appearing on the WotC website, I was very disappointed by the fact that I could not download because I did not live in the US. If the intention is to reach a wide audience, I hope the folks at WotC did brush up their international trade skills. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 03:48:53
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Apparently Dungeon & Dragon arent the only ones on Wizards hit list, WotC have cancelled Margaret Weis Dragonlance licence
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=194407&page=1&pp=40 |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 11:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I just wonder if George's article is making it in before the cutoff.
Yep, I've had the word from on high. Dragon #357 (July issue) will have my latest article. Hurrah!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 12:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I just wonder if George's article is making it in before the cutoff.
Yep, I've had the word from on high. Dragon #357 (July issue) will have my latest article. Hurrah!
-- George Krashos
Whee! |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 12:45:13
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must say that it is at a bit odd time they are starting to reinvoking all their licences with their second Complete series on the way out ... maybe it is thought as as that the Complete series is going to the last big shot before 4'th ed ...
that i would say is the best shot ... but it is still an odd time to shoot ...
but ... lets see what WotC comes out with before we go all out whining |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2007 : 15:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Apparently Dungeon & Dragon arent the only ones on Wizards hit list, WotC have cancelled Margaret Weis Dragonlance licence
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=194407&page=1&pp=40
Anyone seen my +12 Sword of Hasbro/WotC anywhere, seems they are going on a rampage. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Dragon to cease publication and the DL license end
