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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
729 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 06:09:15
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Has it always been this way, or is Thayan nowadays a replacement for Thayvian (or vice versa)? Same goes for Shaaryan vs. Shaaran, what exactly is the difference? I've tried my hand at describing each, as shown below, but would somebody please either explain to me, or correct my descriptions if they are erroneous. Also what other Realms countries have similar duality when it comes to adjectives?
Thayan, adj. of or relating to or characteristic of Thay, for example, Thayan enclave, Thayan wizard, Thayan armies, Thayan knight, Thayan goods, Thayan mercenaries, Thayan embassy or Thayan wand.
Thayvian, adj. of or relating to or characteristic of the people or culture of Thay, for example, Thayvian law, Thayvian society, Thayvian representative or Thayvian ambassador.
Thayvian, n. the people of Thay, for example, he is Thayvian.
Shaaryan, adj. of or relating to or characteristic of The Shaar, for example, Shaaryan hunter or Shaaryan stallion.
Shaaran, adj. of or relating to or characteristic of the people or culture of The Shaar, for example, Shaaran customs or Shaaran tribes.
Shaaran, n. the people of The Shaar, for example, he is Shaaran.
Shaaran, n. the language of The Shaar, for example, he speaks fluent Shaaran.
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Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 06:14:44
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| 'Thayvian' was one of those words that was seemingly dropped with the advent of 3rd Edition to streamline the terminology used for Realms cultures and nations and standardize the vocabulary (thus the dropping of 'Zhentilar,' the adoption of 'Cormyrian' as the standard spelling, and so forth). Personally, I never use 'Thayan,' except when declaring my preference for the 'Thayvian.' |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 11:09:38
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| Well, neither the Spellbound-box nor Unapproachable East use anything but Thayan. Not minding the technicalities (attributes, adjectives and what have you), putting a "v" in there makes it more difficult to pronounce and that is hardly likely a developement in any language. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 13:07:29
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As I recall Ed, through Code of the Harpers, tells us that both 'Thayan' and 'Thayvian' are correct terms, and both are in usage.
Dreams of the Red Wizards uses 'Thayvian.' As does Steven Schend in both Sea of Fallen Stars and Wyrmskull Throne.
Eric's used 'Thayvian' in his Westgate Timeline for Cloak & Dagger.
'Thayan' was used in "The Horde" article for DRAGON #349. Though 'Thayvian' was also referenced in the web enhancement for that same article. So, 'Thayvian' has indeed been returned to 3e FR terminology.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 13:31:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As I recall Ed, through Code of the Harpers, tells us that both 'Thayan' and 'Thayvian' are correct terms, and both are in usage.
Yes. |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
729 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 05:45:38
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So it would be a matter of preference then? I've always preferred Thayvian to Thayan and Shaaran to Shaaryan, but googling seemed to suggest that each had a distinct adjective use (just have a look at the prestige classes featuring those words).
Thanks for the replies. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 09:19:12
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| In case of doubt - and as they are both valid, it seems - use the one that better rolls off the tongue. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 11:06:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
So it would be a matter of preference then?
Well, I'll go with Ed on this, as I usually do. So both terms are correct and both are in usage, even in 3e material as I indicated above.
Use which ever term you feel comfortable with. I'll continue to use 'Thayvian' because that's what I've always used.
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 13:39:52
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| i swear that i read somewhere in one of the books that 'thayan' was sued for things from thay, while 'thayvian' was used for folks from thay (or, quite possible, vice versa.) |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 20:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As I recall Ed, through Code of the Harpers, tells us that both 'Thayan' and 'Thayvian' are correct terms, and both are in usage.
Dreams of the Red Wizards uses 'Thayvian.' As does Steven Schend in both Sea of Fallen Stars and Wyrmskull Throne.
Eric's used 'Thayvian' in his Westgate Timeline for Cloak & Dagger.
'Thayan' was used in "The Horde" article for DRAGON #349. Though 'Thayvian' was also referenced in the web enhancement for that same article. So, 'Thayvian' has indeed been returned to 3e FR terminology.
I have not got my book with me, but aren't the main naval weapons of Thay called "Thayan bombards" in Sea of Fallen Stars? (Or is that the pirates book I'm thinking of?)
I've been thinking of this question since yesterday, and I think that it can be used to advantage by a DM: select one adjective or the other as "standard" (Common, if you like), but have a few "terms of art" use the other adjective by historical custom or because of ongoing influence from Thay. Thus, if almost everyone in the world says "Thayvian," someone who uses the term "Thayan golem" will automatically reveal that he or she has more knowledge of Thay and its products than the average person -- perhaps too much knowledge not to be suspected of being in league with Thay in some way (even if only as a customer of one or more of their enclaves).
Just a suggestion.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 09:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by lokilokust
i swear that i read somewhere in one of the books that 'thayan' was sued for things from thay, while 'thayvian' was used for folks from thay (or, quite possible, vice versa.)
I thought that..
Thayvian - An item or items from Thay
Thayan - A person or persons from Thay
for example:
The Thayan Mage pulled up the hood of his Robe, marked with typical Thayvian designs, which proclamied him a Red Mage of considerable power.
or something....
Delz
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 13:09:32
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Well, Dreams of the Red Wizards uses 'Thayvian' to describe both people and objects from Thay. As does Sea of Fallen Stars. The web enhancement for DRAGON #349's "The Horde" article uses 'Thayvian' to describe people from Thay -- so that's a 3e reference.
As it is... I'm still inclined to follow the path Ed set in Code of the Harpers. Specifically:- "These various Thayvian (or 'Thayan', either usage is correct) agents form a small but well-financed, ever-present spying presence throughout the Realms."
That particular section would seem to indicate that either usage can, and is, used to describe people from Thay.
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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Mar 2007 13:11:06 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 16:20:35
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| I know the general statement is that either is correct, which is cool, but I have to admit, the first thing I thought was the same thing that lokilokust, Delzounblood, and Alaundo thought, that Thayvian sounds better for items versus Thayan for people and organizations (probably just because I've seen "Thayan Wizard" in print so many times). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:40:32
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| This is probably a case of different authors using different words, and both words eventually became widely used. In other words, it's probably not something that someone sat down and thought very deeply about (though I could be wrong). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 18:42:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
No. Both Sea of Fallen Stars and Pirates of the Fallen Stars refer to the ocean-going vessels of Thay as 'Thayvian Bombards.'
I stand ... sit ... corrected. But that difference contributes to the efficacy of my suggestion: if most people say "Thayan," then using the term of art, "Thavian bombard" would suggest that a person came from the Sea of Fallen Stars region -- no matter what their cover story might be.
Such a difference has practical applications, as the grisly Biblical story of "shibboleth" shows, or the rather less gruesome custom of asking people at the US-Canadian border to recite the alphabet. From a Yankee perspective, Canadians almost always get the last letter "wrong." For those not hep to the jive, listen to an episode of "Stargate: Atlantis" and hear what Rodney -- and only Rodney (plus a few very minor supporting characters) -- calls a "ZPM."
I strongly suspect that native Mulhorandi distinguishes "things of Thay" very clearly, and that if there was originally a written determinative which followed "Thay" in written Mulhorandi (probably denoting "rebel," "evil," "enemy of the gods," or something similar), it is probably now spoken aloud, and would be a distinctively Mulhorandi term.
I would be very interested in knowing what adjective Aglarondans and The Simbul use for the people, places, things, and language of Thay!
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Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 09:14:04
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Maiden of Pain partly also plays in Thay and there they use Thayan as well. And yes The Sage, we know of your preferences by now. ;-)
BTW, it is actually astonishing to read that most of the English-speakers prefer the worse option, pronunciation-wise. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 11 Mar 2007 09:23:07 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 10:22:37
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I've been avoiding this thread because I'm trying to avoid speaking my thoughts aloud. However, as it seems that the curséd thing won't die I'll say that I use Thayan solely.
Thayvian, whatever the history of the word is clunky and I suspect most humanoid speakers would use Thayan on account of the reduction in syllables and the ease of pronunciation. There are quite a few names in the Realms where I suspect their creator hasn't said them aloud. Scyllua, which I pronounce Skyoula; Ylraphon, it's easier to say Illrafon; Fzoul, sorry mate you're Zoul to me; Tlabbar, nope that 'Tl' combination is a real bugger on an Englishman's tongue so you're Talabar and with Amn I keep the spelling and pronounce it as Arme.
I don't really care who wrote the name and what the original name was. If it looks wrong and I can't say it, I change it to something I can say. I do this for the same reasons I use the word chocolate and not 'xocolatl.' Speakers of any language use it as best suits their purposes. The weak side of many source books published by WotC is that the proposed languages give the impression that their creator really didn't know much about languages at all. It really destroys my sense of verisimilitude when I'm confronted with a spume of rarely-used consonants and I'm told to consider them as an example of a living, spoken language.
*leaves the thread and withdraws behind cover before the 'canons' begin firing* |
Death is Life
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Revenge is Forgiveness
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Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 11:28:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I've been avoiding this thread because I'm trying to avoid speaking my thoughts aloud. However, as it seems that the curséd thing won't die I'll say that I use Thayan solely.
Thayvian, whatever the history of the word is clunky and I suspect most humanoid speakers would use Thayan on account of the reduction in syllables and the ease of pronunciation. There are quite a few names in the Realms where I suspect their creator hasn't said them aloud. Scyllua, which I pronounce Skyoula; Ylraphon, it's easier to say Illrafon; Fzoul, sorry mate you're Zoul to me; Tlabbar, nope that 'Tl' combination is a real bugger on an Englishman's tongue so you're Talabar and with Amn I keep the spelling and pronounce it as Arme.
I don't really care who wrote the name and what the original name was. If it looks wrong and I can't say it, I change it to something I can say. I do this for the same reasons I use the word chocolate and not 'xocolatl.' Speakers of any language use it as best suits their purposes. The weak side of many source books published by WotC is that the proposed languages give the impression that their creator really didn't know much about languages at all. It really destroys my sense of verisimilitude when I'm confronted with a spume of rarely-used consonants and I'm told to consider them as an example of a living, spoken language.
*leaves the thread and withdraws behind cover before the 'canons' begin firing*
Well I have no canon fire and pronunciation is up to each person, but I can see no real reason that a word being simpler or not would give it a greater use. If you look at most languages there are words that will case heavy tongue gymnastics for most non-native speakers. As people in the realms will be used to the term Thayvian would not be much worse than Thayan. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 12:16:22
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Indeed.
And given some of Tom Costa's and Ed's previous comments about the spread of languages around the Realms, I would assume there are a number of individual settlements/hamlets/town/cities across the Realms who do not enjoy the same "linguistical diversity" that many other prominent locations around the Realms experience on a daily basis. Simply, the languages at play in these kinds of culturally isolated settlements -- places that rarely encounter travellers from elsewhere in the Realms, or even those locations that rely solely on minstrels/bards to learn about the extended world around them -- are shaped by their limited exposure to the Common tongue used in the Realms around them. Their communal "linguistic database" so-to-speak, is built mostly around what they and pick up learn from others/outsiders.
The term 'Thayvian' or 'Thayan' may actually be the ONLY way these non-Thayvians/Thayans describe both people and objects from Thay. Just as 'Thayvian' and 'Thayan' themselves may both be the terms used, and accepted, by many more culturally diverse non-Thayvians/Thayans.
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Edited by - The Sage on 11 Mar 2007 12:21:45 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 21:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Thayvian, whatever the history of the word is clunky and I suspect most humanoid speakers would use Thayan on account of the reduction in syllables and the ease of pronunciation. There are quite a few names in the Realms where I suspect their creator hasn't said them aloud. Scyllua, which I pronounce Skyoula; Ylraphon, it's easier to say Illrafon; Fzoul, sorry mate you're Zoul to me; Tlabbar, nope that 'Tl' combination is a real bugger on an Englishman's tongue so you're Talabar and with Amn I keep the spelling and pronounce it as Arme.
I agree with this. Like it or not, "Thayvian" is nothing compared to some of the other near-unpronouncable clunkers out there. If we're going to simply one word, why not simplify everything else?
Note that I don't have any specific preference here, as this isn't a subject that I give much thought to. At all. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2007 : 16:57:05
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I know I read the below somewhere. I thought it was FR Adventures, but I guess not.
Thayvian - something made by the people or government of Thay
Thayan - of or pertaining to the people of Thay
For instance, it would be Thayvian battleships with Thayan mages aboard working together to form a battle circle.
However, this all being said, the prologue of Spellbound has Lhaeo saying
"This land is a frequent target of Thayan (not Thayvian, despite popular usage) invasions," |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2007 : 03:00:12
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| Some real world languages are awkward consonant heavy. The language of the Aztecs, for example. How the heck do you pronounce those words! |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 18:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
Some real world languages are awkward consonant heavy. The language of the Aztecs, for example. How the heck do you pronounce those words!
Nahuatl (the language of the Aztecs) is quite easy to pronounce. What gives many people pause is the "X," which is pronounced "SH."
This has little to do with Thay, but it gives me an excuse to refer back to an old question of mine which hasn't ever been thoroughly answered, which is: "How is 'X' pronounced in various languages in the Realms?" It occurs frequently, and I can think of a half dozen different ways it might be used, from "KS" to "SH" to "Z."
Lest I totally derail this scroll, however, I offer one suggestion: perhaps the difference between "Thayan" and "Thayvian" derives from whether one's linguistic tradition derives from Mulhorrand or from Thay itself, as Latin American pronunciations derive either from Castille or from some other part of Iberia.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2007 : 01:11:08
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That was I was talking about a little earlier... that some of the linguistical traditions that make-up a particular region's cultural background may have purposefully been built around a limited exposure to Thay and it's aspects.
In other words, some less-diversified outsider cultures may only know how to relate to people of Thay as 'Thayvian' or 'Thayan' -- not both. While other locales, perhaps rather more metropolitan and racially/culturally diversified, like the City of Splendors, are equally aware that both 'Thayan' and 'Thayvian' are interchangable terms commonly used to describe specific elements about the land of the Red Wizards.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 10:50:46
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Another dusty old scroll!
The OPs distinction between Thayan and Thayvian seems pretty straightforward. The subsequent discussion about natural linguistic drift through distant lands and peoples seems reasonable, even inevitable. It's also been observed that apparently "not much thought went into it" and inconsistent usage among different authors has caused confusion.
1 - I've encountered Thayvan (many times, not a typo) ... it this an official/canon variation?
[Edit: the source was not canon, I withdraw the question]
2 - What do the Thayans call their language? What do foreigners call it? Thayan, Thayvian, Thayish?
(And is this the same language spoken in Mulhorand? I'm assuming that even if it is, the Thayans would never admit it.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2010 05:59:54 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2010 : 19:56:54
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Another tidbit previous posters missed.
Edwin Odesseiron refers to himself as 'Thayvian' in BG 2 in his dialogue with Viconia. Thus the word means 'person from Thay'. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2010 : 22:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Another dusty old scroll!
2 - What do the Thayans call their language? What do foreigners call it? Thayan, Thayvian, Thayish?
(And is this the same language spoken in Mulhorand? I'm assuming that even if it is, the Thayans would never admit it.)
According to PGtF the folks of Thay speak Mulhorandi, whether they call it that or not is not, SFAIK, addressed.
As to the difference between the two words; I was wondering if natives use one version and everyone else uses the other? After all, if I remember correctly, the Iranians call themselves Persians... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 04:39:05
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The example you offer is more complex than that. Iranians identify themselves as Iranians, Iraqi as Iraqi, etc. In some distant lands, however, it is sometimes not necessarily prudent to declare yourself as a native of these nations ... Iranians and Iraqi might identify themselves to foreigners by their cultural/ethnic group (Kurd, Azeri, or Assyrian for example), or by language (Farsi or Arabic), or by ancestry (Turkmen or Caucasian), or by religion (Children of Islam, Jew, Christian); or indeed under blanket terms like Arab or Persian. The Western world is largely ignorant of many of the finer Middle-Eastern divisions; it's quite easy for foreigners to just lump all the people of these countries under a single name.
Another example might be India. The Western world sees it as being only another (albeit modestly large) country on the map. The reality is that India is not a country as much as it's a continent. It's as big as Europe - but has an even longer history and has many diverse ethnic/population groups within its borders. To an outsider the people of India might seem unified, but in fact they consider themselves as significantly varied as the natives of England, Spain, and Germany would.
Modern China and Russia might also serve as rich examples, though perhaps not quite as dramatic. I've always personally viewed Thay as being loosely comparable to RL Middle-East, indeed very much like Assyria/Iraq in some ways, insofar as historical migrations and such ... the confusion about Thayan, Thayvian (even Thayish or Thayvan) terms seems perfectly understandable, partly as the natives themselves (when outside their lands) are somewhat disinclined to bother correcting the misunderstanding. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Oct 2010 04:48:57 |
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Thayan or Thayvian?
