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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
(casting Animate Dead Scroll)
I have some questions that are tangentially related to OP topic (reanimating this dead scroll and bending it to my will seemed better than starting a new one).
1) What would be the most powerful "nuke" that characters in the Realms can reasonably expect to wield? I think it might be the Retributive Strike from breaking a fully-charged Staff of the Magi. Are there any "normal" (non-Artifact, mortal-rank) spells or magic items which can exceed this amount of damage? Could random wild surges generate this magnitude of raw damage?
I once found a "d20 munchkin handbook" that had a lot of funny, if somewhat, useless items and spells inside. It was done with some silliness and joking but there was a spell called Thermoneuclear Blast which (correct me if I'm wrong here) kills everything instantly within 10 miles, everything in 6-8 hours within 25 miles, and everythying in 1-3 weeks within 100 miles. The area cannot be inhabited by any living creatures for approx 50 to 100 years due to radiation. Your character dies instantly with no chance of resurrection (including using Wish or True Resurrection). If a player actually wanted to roll out the damage, it's something like 1,000,000 d6's and you must roll EVERY SINGLE die lol. Pretty extreme honestly.
Would this kill a deity? I'd say it'd blow the deities avatar out of the water and even partially weaken the deitie's state. Kill it out-right? Probably not. You could, go to the deitie's primary plane of existance, manage to keep it there somehow, and THEN use the spell then yes, I'd say so.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
2) Would crazy Tinker Gnome machinery from Krynn work in the Realms, or would such things also function on "slightly out of phase" subtleties in the fundamental physics? What about complex devices from the Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Spelljammer settings and other D&D worlds? Or are all these worlds generally "aligned" within the same laws of physics while in fact ours is the anomaly?
Well considering Spelljammer items, ships, and so forth have been on Faerun, I think they'd function pretty much the same. Probably the same goes for other worlds as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
3) Does anybone know anything about the Smoke Powder (or other propellant) that was used in the great bombards of Thay, long before even the ToT and subsequent gradual appearance of Smoke Powder throughout the Realms?
Ah, here's one of my biggest continunity problems with the setting. In one novel, it states that smoke-powder is just scientific substance with no magial properties. While another says that it's a magical property given by the deity Gond while on his stay on Lantan during the Time of Troubles. I'd like to think that smoke-powder works the same as reguarl gun-powder but can be enhanced with magic to make it more durable, or add in additional properties. |
Edited by - Diffan on 14 Nov 2010 19:28:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 19:20:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
2) Would crazy Tinker Gnome machinery from Krynn work in the Realms, or would such things also function on "slightly out of phase" subtleties in the fundamental physics? What about complex devices from the Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Spelljammer settings and other D&D worlds? Or are all these worlds generally "aligned" within the same laws of physics while in fact ours is the anomaly?
I'd say roughly the same laws of physics betwixt worlds.
Besides, tinker gnome tech isn't really all that advanced, and mostly relies on steam and other non-electrical forms of power. Most of it isn't even as advanced as typical steampunk gear.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
3) Does anybone know anything about the Smoke Powder (or other propellant) that was used in the great bombards of Thay, long before even the ToT and subsequent gradual appearance of Smoke Powder throughout the Realms?
It's basically magical gun powder. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 20:06:46
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quote:
Diffan
I once found a "d20 munchkin handbook" that had ... a spell called Thermoneuclear Blast ...
I'm decidedly unfond of munchkin lore myself, but I'd have to agree Thermonuclear Blast could easily destroy an avatar and weaken the deity for a time, perhaps quite seriously if detonated on the deity's planar home. (Assuming of course that such a ridiculous spell existed as described, was within the capabilities of a mortal, and could somehow mysteriously catch the deity completely flat-footed.) Contrary to what published rules state, I suspect that killing a deity is not as easy as just cornering it with a nuke; you'd have to methodically disestablish it's core believers across every land of every world where it is worshipped, and simultaneously eliminate every avatar and chosen and other reservoir of divine energy it might have stashed away ... I even consider aspects of deities (that is, spawned subdeities) to be part of their "living" essence. Even the planar domain itself might need to be destroyed to really kill the deity. No doubt every deity is eternally vigilant (omnivigilant?) against threats from other deities, angelic or fiendish assassins, hungry artifacts, and arrogant mortals. It's so close to impossible on so many levels that it's not even a valid question.quote:
Wooly Rupert
It's basically magical gun powder.
Thanks - though I was hoping for more.
I suppose that bombard lore wasn't very detailed back then and "magical gun powder" was good enough. (Similar to the original state of the Nether Scrolls in REF5.)quote:
Diffan
Ah, here's one of my biggest continunity problems with the setting. In one novel, it states that smoke-powder is just scientific substance with no magial properties. While another says that it's a magical property given by the deity Gond while on his stay on Lantan during the Time of Troubles. I'd like to think that smoke-powder works the same as regular gun-powder but can be enhanced with magic to make it more durable, or add in additional properties.
I don't mind the standard DMG definition, myself. Treating it as a magical substance prevents RL-style mass production and makes it precious; the Spelljammer treatment (Giffs with big guns) was just a little bit too garish for my tastes. I think it's pretty clear that Gond invented Smoke Powder and distributed it through Lantan and subsequently all of Faerūn after the ToT (as explained in FRA). Note that the time period between the invention and distribution are implied but never actually specified; Gond could have invented Smoke Powder the day he arrived in the Realms and kept it hidden under his anvil for centuries.
The Red Wizards could have used Thayvian alchemical explosives (or Liquid Disintegration, or powdered Exploding Bones, or whatever) inspired more by Kossuth than Gond; they've always had an affinity with magic and fire and would hardly pay Gond any lipservice at all unless they needed a craftsman to mend their red robes (and even then they'd likely use a Mending spell). Or they could have happily allowed misinformed speculation about the secret properties of their bombard propellant to remain uncorrected outside of trusted (and magically Geased) Thayan Bombadiers. I don't personally see any discontinuity at all. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Nov 2010 20:45:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 20:45:23
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The Bombards have been of three types, each with a different mechanism (dependent upon edition). Ergo I theorize that there are older and newer models.
I had gone over this topic numerous times before, but its been awhile. I think the earliest model was the chemical-projectors used by the Pirates of the Fallen Stars. Then there was a 'TypeII' that fired solid shot but used 'alchemical liquid' as a propellent, and finally there was the 'TypeIII' that used Smokepowder. One can assume that the advent of Smokepowder after the ToT lead to the Thayans adapting their existing canon technology to that easier-to-manufacture substance (which has the IDENTICAL chemical composition as Black Powder, BTW). That fits into when the rules for that final model were released (although Kara-Tur had Smokepowder for centuries before Lantan 'released it' in the west).
Gunpowder doesn't work - that is canon. The nature of the sphere does not allow it, or any tech above steam. Since we know that Gunpowder exists in Spelljammer, and we know it is the same chemically as Smokepowder, the assumption must be made that Gond's priesthood (and KT's Wujen) are able to cast a dweomer on normal gunpowder that allows it to ignore Ao's Ban.
No 'doomsday devices' have been made with it, but all sorts of interesting things have been attempted in warfare with it in the east (read Dragonwall). They have built bombs, primitive rockets, and even tried using it to propel a vast number of arrows (stuffed in cauldron-like affairs) at their enemies, with mixed results.
Assume that the spell used to enchant gunpowder into Smokepowder begins to breakdown and become unstable when too much is used together. This results from the normal restrictions regarding stacking spells and mixing-magic (quite literally, different groups of powder that were enchanted separately). Making it stable in large amounts has proven unsuccessful (thus far).
They do make some nifty fireworks with it, though. 
(And now I'm picturing Elminster riding in a wagon full of explosives into Luiren....) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2010 20:47:08 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 21:11:38
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Larloch has a nuke, according to Ed, even under 3e rules, sixty mages giving their ninth level slot for an energy seed epic spell
elves were known to nuke gods out of existence with their circle magic
if there's magical gunpowder, why not uranium, lol, it's a small step from there
there must be a Democritus analog in Chessenta |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 21:25:31
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Markus,
The basic DMG description is substantially different from chemical black powder; it is actually comprised of two different powders which are absolutely inert (nonexplosive, nonflammable, nonvolatile) until they are mixed together. FRA clearly states that Smoke Powder is a magical substance and even claims that Beholder eyestalks are a likely ingredient.
I like your ideas about the abilities of Gond's priesthood. But I'm not so certain that we *do* know that Realms and Spelljammer powders are (chemically) identical. Where is that stated?
I suppose I can expect some form of Smoke Powder existed in Kara-Tur fireworks for many years before the ToT?
What about Smokepowder from the Savage Coast/Red Steel setting (officially set in Mystara, but "can exist anywhere a frontier coastline could be located" in the Realms)? It has a very different formula (a special alchemical mixture including about 2 parts vermeil and 1 part steel seed) which, aside from reddish colouring, is essentially identical to DMG Smoke Powder. How does it fit into the Realms? How does it fit into the Realms when Savage Coast is part of the Realms? |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Nov 2010 22:21:57 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 21:25:48
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Well... if you want a Nuke, just do a Locate City bomb.
Really, you don't need massive power to 'nuke' something in D&D if you really want to. There are lots of spells that can do it (That Apocalypse from the Sky one, I think). Also epic spells. No biggie. Why would you try and replicate a technology based solution if you don't have to? Physics works differently in the realms...
And.. *checks* yup, the OP's age is 17. That's about the age when I was musing about this sort of thing, too. It's a phase, you'll get over it!
Anyway, I'd give a Nuke effect lots of damage based on the amount of light, a good amount of fire damage, some sonic damage from the concussion, an explosive spell type 'moves you' effect, and I would do the radiation as a poison effect with a high fortitude save, and maybe some disintegration effects too. Not really hard for a high level character to be immune to. Should be possible well below 20, if they have the appropriate spell defenses up, and have looked it up and chosen spells to make themselves immune to the particular effects, even if it does several hundred d6 damage of various sorts. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 22:04:37
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Aha, my (revived) OP nuke question was really more curiosity about the maximum (non-munchkin) firepower a character could pack, not whether it could be used to slay gods. I've long ago outgrown those sorts of unsophisticated teenaged ambitions. Dargoth's post earlier in this scroll describing Bane-vs-Nuke (followed by Wooly's intelligent answers) pretty much slapped the purile nuke question down before it could really get out of hand.
Good ol' Larloch is built from a pile of game-breaker exceptions already, no sane DM would ever really use Larloch's firepower or allow a PC to attain anything remotely similar unless he wanted to invent a string of homebrewed RSEs and clean up the mess afterwards. I honestly don't really see why Larloch is even given stats and rules - it just makes slayer players want to man themselves up enough to challenge him, and I for one don't want to TPK my party or lose Larloch from my campaign without a damned good reason. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Nov 2010 22:08:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 22:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I like your ideas about the abilities of Gond's priesthood. But I'm not so certain that we *do* know that Realms and Spelljammer powders are (chemically) identical. Where is that stated?
Watercourse trilogy - I haven't read it myself, but this discussion happened over on the WotC forums and the relevant passage was both quoted and confirmed. Sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate - those are the chemicals the actual powder is comprised of. This work is more recent then the FRA - assume that "Beholder Eyestalks" and whatever else are part of the material components of the spell which allows it to function within Realmspace. Making the powder is fairly easy - its casting the spell that's the tricky part (not only because it uses rather exotic ingredients, but because Gond's priesthood protects the secrecy of the spell itself).
I would also have to assume that the non-divine Wujen variation of the spell uses more common ingredients (since Smokepowder itself is not hard to come by there). Note also that in that novel (Dragonwall), the words 'Smokepowder' and 'Black powder' are used interchangeably a few times.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I suppose I can expect some form of Smoke Powder existed in Kara-Tur fireworks for many years before the ToT?
YES
It's also worth noting that two Kara-Turran nations have a VERY strong presence in Arcane Space (Spelljammer), where the use of 'gunnes' is fairly common (which may be where the Shou initially got the idea to create their own version of 'explosive powder').
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
What about Smokepowder from the Savage Coast/Red Steel setting (officially set in Mystara, but "can exist anywhere a frontier coastline could be located" in the Realms)? It has a very different formula (a special alchemical mixture of about 2 parts vermeil and 1 part steel seed) which is essentially identical to DMG Smoke Powder (aside from reddish colouring). How does it fit into the Realms? How does it fit into the Realms when it's part of the Realms?
I've actually though about this (I used Red Steal as a basis for my 1472 Achoromé campaign). Vermeil = Micha (from Maztica), its that simple. 
Both are highly chaotic magical powders, but one is Gold and the other Red. I just assume that both are particles of dust that have been infused with Wild magic (the same exact energy, BTW, that one can find in the Plaguedlands). 
Now with Maztica gone, you may just want to go looking for some sparkly red powder in the Changelands - IF YOU DARE.
Obviously there is more then one magical means with which to bypass Ao's Ban, and I think using a material that contains Wild Magic would make some sense. Note that Greyspace has a similar ban, but Smokepowder doesn't work there. Mystara's Smokepowder is probably the way they figured out how to bypass a ban on that world (which was probably put into place after the Ancients almost destroyed it).
'The Ancients' refers to the Blackmoor civilization, which appears to have had connections to at least three official D&D settings. I also just realized that there is a Spelljammming vessel in Maztica hidden in an ancient temple built by the Ancients (which may or may not be the same 'Ancients'). Interesting... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2010 22:40:52 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 23:21:08
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That treatment makes Ao's Ban seem more like Ao's Threshold. A threshold that anybody can reach, given sufficient resources and determination (and perhaps a little bump from a god). Maybe it should be called Ao's Singularity.
I like the idea about mundane chemistry requiring a (Gondish) spell activation*, which may in turn require exotic spell components. A bit more sensible than Smokepowder creation being defined by the greater difficulties of magic item creation (especially when you consider how much of the stuff must be produced). I very much like the idea of wild magic being part of the secret formula; it seems to fit well with the idea that wild magic was largely unknown prior to ToT, although it might have been discovered by some powerful wizards such as the Red Wizards ... I half wonder if a Zulkir of Wild Magic (overseeing Thay's Smokepowder production, of course) should've emerged post ToT. I'm not familiar with Micha but I'll read through my freebie Maztica downloads (after I'm done absorbing Netheril).
* It could very well be that Ao's Ban prohibits the basic chemical reagents in their normal mixing reaction while having no effect at all on their explosive "unmixing" reaction.
It's also an easy path towards opening up variant forms of Smokepowder. Maybe you just sprinkle some powdered ruby or lich dust or some freshly squeezed Illithid juice into the formula to get a bigger boom. Maybe you can add in a few little scraps of your precious Nether Scroll* or warm the mixture up with a little spellfire to add a bit of variety to your spellcasting. Or cast the Gondspell in a wild magic zone if you dare.
* What else are you gonna do with it after you've already read it thirty times? It'll stubbornly regenerate itself after a while anyhow.
I can't say if I agree with your Blackmoor=Spelljammer association, but I've never really cared much about Blackmoor (or Spelljammer for that matter) and it's unlikely the lore will ever have much impact on my campaign.
See my wonderful ignorance - Changelands are basically drifting patches of post-Spellplague wild-magic zones, right?
Another question - in Spelljammer, are guns & gunpowder a relatively "new" thing or have they been around forever? Is there a chance that Smokepowder spread from the eastern Realms to all of known space? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2010 00:40:49 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 00:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
2) Would crazy Tinker Gnome machinery from Krynn work in the Realms, or would such things also function on "slightly out of phase" subtleties in the fundamental physics? What about complex devices from the Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Spelljammer settings and other D&D worlds? Or are all these worlds generally "aligned" within the same laws of physics while in fact ours is the anomaly?
I'd say roughly the same laws of physics betwixt worlds.
Essentially, yes. Though we have no definitive laws about physics from Krynn, unlike the Realms. So I'd say this is an assumption, more than fact.
quote:
Besides, tinker gnome tech isn't really all that advanced, and mostly relies on steam and other non-electrical forms of power. Most of it isn't even as advanced as typical steampunk gear.
I'd disagree with that, to a degree. When Krynnish tinker gnome-tech works, it works rather well, and can be particularly advanced. However, it's just almost always about designs that try to accomplish too much at the same time. Whereas, a singularly-functioning device would probably work best.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 00:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
It's basically magical gun powder.
Thanks - though I was hoping for more.
Well, there really isn't any more. Smoke powder *is* a magical powder similar to gun powder. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 00:46:01
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lol, Wooly and Sage both ... could it be that the worthiest sages of Candlekeep are part of Ao's great gunpowder conspiracy?
Yeah, I guess "magical gunpowder" is about as much as the earliest Thayan bombards have to offer. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 01:04:20
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The power to create a Nuke in D&D is not that hard. I see similarities in the explosion that results in the combining of a Rod of Cancellation and a Sphere of Annihilation and a nuclear reaction. Here its not a thermo-nuclear reaction that leads to the massive explosion, but in my opinion far more powerful forces that work to create the burgeoning sun like boom.
Spheres of Annihilation are more powerful than Nuclear Warheads, and the caster has more control over it too boot. A sphere of annihilation behaves like a miniature black hole. Black holes in our universe consist of the implosion of massive amounts of thermonuclear matter, attracting all matter, energy and light included, to a very small time-space. By halting this proces in a Sphere of Annihilation the very space-time continuum rips apart, making dimensional tears in the multiverse that suck in all natural matter in a 60ft radius.
So to create a nuke one would need to increase the radius of a sphere of annihilation to obscene levels (perhaps through circle magic, epic research, or divine aid) and followed by a casual toss of in a single Rod of Cancellation into its center. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 11:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
lol, Wooly and Sage both ... could it be that the worthiest sages of Candlekeep are part of Ao's great gunpowder conspiracy?
Can't be. Guy Fawkes day was 10 days ago. On the other hand... The Smoke Powder Plot! Ao Fawkes Day!
"Remember, remember, Fifteenth of November / Smoke Powder, Thayvians, and Plot / Ao sees no reason why smoke powder, treason / should only by Gond be begot." |
Edited by - Thauramarth on 15 Nov 2010 11:18:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 11:55:19
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| I love the smell of new adventure hooks in the morning. Ao Fawkes Day, most excellent indeed! |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 20:01:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
That treatment makes Ao's Ban seem more like Ao's Threshold. A threshold that anybody can reach, given sufficient resources and determination (and perhaps a little bump from a god). Maybe it should be called Ao's Singularity.
This is why I think it makes some sense that Wild magic must be involved - Ao's Ban affects ALL Arcane-based magic (the ban is tied to the weave - see other threads where I speculated on this). One could also presume that other non-Arcane forms of magic would also be able to bypass 'the rules' (like Shadow-magic, Divine {Radiant} energy, or maybe Runes).
Ao does NOT allow people to get passed his ban - its something, for whatever reason, he is unable to prevent. If he allowed it, it wouldn't be much of a 'ban' at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I like the idea about mundane chemistry requiring a (Gondish) spell activation*, which may in turn require exotic spell components. A bit more sensible than Smokepowder creation being defined by the greater difficulties of magic item creation (especially when you consider how much of the stuff must be produced). I very much like the idea of wild magic being part of the secret formula; it seems to fit well with the idea that wild magic was largely unknown prior to ToT, although it might have been discovered by some powerful wizards such as the Red Wizards ... I half wonder if a Zulkir of Wild Magic (overseeing Thay's Smokepowder production, of course) should've emerged post ToT. I'm not familiar with Micha but I'll read through my freebie Maztica downloads (after I'm done absorbing Netheril).
Micha isn't identical to vermeil, but its close enough lore-wise for it to work for me.
BECAUSE I ran an advanced-timeline game awhile back (FR meets the Old West), wherein Anchorome took the place of 'the new frontier' (and I rotated the Red Steel maps counter-clockwise for my coast), I thought A LOT about how to make guns work in a fantasy world (watch out for those Halfling gunslingers - they are insanely good). At the time I had adapted a bunch of Weird West (Deadlands) material, and I wish I had the Iron kingdoms rules available to me at that time (things might have gone better). Their Arcane Gunmages are off the hook.
And because of the evolving rules regarding Thay's bombards, it was easy to conjecture that they have been experimenting for quite some time. they are both a powerful magical nation, and an aggressively military one; it stands to reason they would be heavily immersed in arms research.
When I was working on the Kara-Tur material, I had begun to create a 'final decade' timeline pre-plague, which included at least two Thayan enclaves in the east (Shou Lung and Wa). The Wujens and Red Wizards get along quite well. 
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It could very well be that Ao's Ban prohibits the basic chemical reagents in their normal mixing reaction while having no effect at all on their explosive "unmixing" reaction.
Using both Spelljammer and Planescapes as models (and a wee bit of Ravenloft), ALL spheres (which are really just demi-planes within the Prime) adhere to a strict set of rules governed by some sort of 'Gaurdian'. In FR's case, it is Ao; in the case of Ravenloft, it is "The Dark Powers". Regardless, these beings create the rules that govern the physics in the sphere/demi-plane, and it changes from sphere to sphere. Planes with no Spheric Gaurdian tend to descend into chaos - there is no 'up or down', time runs amok, etc...
So yeah, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that chemical reactions are included in that (since electrical devices do not function on Toril either; you simply cannot build a functional battery).
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It's also an easy path towards opening up variant forms of Smokepowder. Maybe you just sprinkle some powdered ruby or lich dust or some freshly squeezed Illithid juice into the formula to get a bigger boom. Maybe you can add in a few little scraps of your precious Nether Scroll* or warm the mixture up with a little spellfire to add a bit of variety to your spellcasting. Or cast the Gondspell in a wild magic zone if you dare.
Exactly. The purpose of the lore/fluff (including my and everyone else's Homebrew) should be to broaden the possibilities, NEVER limit them.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I can't say if I agree with your Blackmoor=Spelljammer association, but I've never really cared much about Blackmoor (or Spelljammer for that matter) and it's unlikely the lore will ever have much impact on my campaign.
I didn't say that Blackmoor is responsible for Spelljamming - I was actually just musing about a possible connection to that civilization and Maztica (FR is NOT one of the three that have canon connections). Now that I think about it, the Hollow World was considered a separate setting (even though its inside Mystara), and Blackmoor was its own setting initially, so I could even go out on a limb and say five official settings have connections to Blackmoor.
But the Realms aren't one of them.
I know little about the Ancient Blackmoor civilization, but I 'think' it was a technologically-based culture - I am not even sure if they had magic. They also would not have been much interested in Arcane Space regardless - like the Imaskari, they apparently discovered planer travel, which is MUCH easier (whereas I picture Stargate for the Imaskari, I get more of a Sliders vibe from Blackmoor).
So if the Imaskari were like the Goa'uld, then the Blackmoorians would be like the Kromaggs. Taking that a step further, I think that Blackmoor may be responsible for so many Spheric Gaurdians limiting tech on so many worlds. Ergo, I do not think Blackmoor invented Spelljamming, but rather, were the catalyst for its later creation.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
See my wonderful ignorance - Changelands are basically drifting patches of post-Spellplague wild-magic zones, right?
AFAIK - that's the gist I get with my own very limited knowledge of 4e. However, they are more like the Mourneland of Eberron - MASSIVE swaths of wild magic, with various degrees of chaos drifting about in 'patches' (almost like 'magical weather'). So they are like hundreds of bubbles of Wild magic (of varying degrees of potency) within a larger area that may even be construed as dead-magic. In other words, anything goes.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Another question - in Spelljammer, are guns & gunpowder a relatively "new" thing or have they been around forever? Is there a chance that Smokepowder spread from the eastern Realms to all of known space?
Definite NO.
Firearms have been around in Arcane Space for quite some time. As I speculated earlier, I would guess that Kara-Turrans got the idea from Space, not the other way around. If anything, I would suspect the Giff spread their use, after discovering them in some sphere where tech was allowed.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2010 21:50:09 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 21:39:40
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Thanx for your answers, Markus.
quote:
Arik
It could very well be that Ao's Ban prohibits the basic chemical reagents in their normal mixing reaction while having no effect at all on their explosive "unmixing" reaction.
More about this. I meant to suggest that Ao's Ban (and possibly that of any other overgod) might prevent chemical Smokepowder from being created (without the use of careful magic and such) but have no effect on Smokepowder that already exists (or is brought into) his little corner of the cosmos. This might explain why variant Smokepowders from any other setting (even nonmagical gunpowder from our world, for example) might still "operate" within the Realms, though actually creating more of the stuff would simply be impossible.
It's a bit overanalyzed, probably. Each DM or author makes the final decision on whether Smokepowder with whatever origins will work or will not work. "Why" hardly really needs to be explained. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Nov 2010 21:41:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 22:26:14
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Black Powder/Gunpowder do not work, as explained specifically within the Spelljammer rules.
'Smokepowder' seems to be the catch-all word for a similar substance (be it magical, alchemical, or whatever) that works the same way but is not Gunpowder.
So yeah, by its very nature, the word 'Smokepowder' indicates something designed to break the rules. From world to world you may find variants that work and don't work, depending upon your DM. I would suggest the excellent Amber series of novels, which focuses around a family of Planes-hoppers. Gunpowder does not work on the 'homeworld' for that group {Amber}, but one family member finally finds a world with a gunpowder variant that will work on Amber... which greatly changes things.
Also keep in mind that our own variation of 'explosive powder' may not be the 'default' version; in the scheme of things, the D&D Earth could have its own set of rules and Planer Gaurdian.
I have read at least two works of SciFi that used the premise that our world's laws of physics are not the 'defualt set', and that they only apply to our particular region of space. I also read at least one (Secret of the Sixth Magic) novel wherein a group of 'Shamans' (for lack of a better term) were able to change the laws of physics for whatever world they were on (which included the laws of magic). Ergo there is a (non-D&D) precedent for magic that is able to bypass the 'ruleset' of a given world. In D&D terminology, I would just say they were using Wild (Chaos) magic - that energy from the Far Realms which cannot be governed by our universe.
Glad I could be of some help. Like you say, its really every DM's own decision what works in his games, but I try to give as much logical reasoning for folks to follow when they make their decisions. A little logic goes a long way in figuring-out how stuff works when a DM is presented with an unexpected situation (in other words, if you know the 'why' behind the magic/psuedo-science, then you can deduce what affects it, and in what way).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2010 22:27:26 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:11:03
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Straying this already twisted undead scroll even further off topic, I offer my observation that Lyndon Hardy's Master of the Five Magics and Secret of the Sixth Magic are both superb fantasy classics. Sadly, I never read Riddle of the Seven Realms and so cannot comment on it. Although perhaps not as sophisticated and well-written as the better FR novels of recent years, these books (the first two, at least) are creative, carefully constructed, and very engaging tales.
The simple magic structure presented in the first book is very original. The structure being manipulated and reinvented on the fly by the "Meta-Wizards" or "Tailors of the Weave" (as I would call your "Shamans", Markus) in the second book is equally original and compelling. The half-obscured tie-ins between these magical systems and our world are also provocative and amusing. These novels are a perfect example of logical reasoning behind the magic being used to define a "believable" and entertaining fantasy world. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Deity vs Nuke?
