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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  21:56:13  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I wonder what would be typical concepts of a persons honor in most parts of the Realms. Historically medieval people equated honor of ones family name as crucial, or even vital part of their being in a society. Men could be killed in name of tarnishing someones honor. How much do you see this being part of the Realms?

In the rather violent parts of Fearun I can see lots of reasons for people to adhere to a social code. Honor is likely to encompass their own view of societal duties such as the care for their possesions and holdings, the status of their wives and family, and their connection to the divine.

With the rather loose sexual mores a womans honor is likely to be a very different thing than that of a medieval womans honor is, which usually equated to their chastity and their marital behaviour. Are there any obvious novels that touch upon this subject to a greater degrewe than normal?

Any thoughts on how to codify or recognize the regional differences of this concept across the Realms? Any examples of socially unacceptable behavior we modern humans would consider perfectly normal in our lives, that would risk being challenged into a duel in the Realms?

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  22:34:15  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would imagine that regions like Cormyr and Waterdeep would tend toward a more medieval concept of honor, while others might take a more moral or ethical view of it. Kara-tur might adhere to a more traditional honor of the Orient, and then there are some areas where honor is hardly a factor at all, such as Thay or any drow city. The more civilized an area, the more likely it would be to have codes of honor in society- although evil societies would naturally have very scewed ideas about it.

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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
729 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  08:21:56  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

With the rather loose sexual mores a womans honor is likely to be a very different thing than that of a medieval womans honor is, which usually equated to their chastity and their marital behaviour. Are there any obvious novels that touch upon this subject to a greater degrewe than normal?


Probably a counter-example, but R.A. Salvatore's The Spine of the World (aka the Drizzt book without Drizzt) gets Wulfgar into a serious pickle because he's been accused of "dishonoring" a local nobleman's fiancee.
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Alisttair
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Canada
3054 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  12:01:32  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Torm's worshippers are strong on honor, especially the Paladins. The Paladin in the BG CRPG game comes to mind (brain cramp, can't remember his name).

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  13:13:28  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye, Sir Keldorn Firecam had some great lines that exemplify his honor.
"Lets strike a blow deep in to Evils Heart, there's no worthier cause!"
"Do not take honor in fighting with my presence. Take honor in that you fight for good, for that is my source of strength."(To Minsc after he mentions what a great honor it is to fight next to Keldorn)
He literally oozes awesome.

Does anyone know a good list that codifies Torms code of conduct?
It would make a good starting point to get a feel for common honor codes and practices.


N.B. 1) Actually Alysstra, Honor systems emerge from the lack of strong legal presence.

Honor found in Cormyr and Waterdeep is likely the result of the nobles being nearly above the common laws because of hereditary privileges.

Frontier or nomadic societies need honor just as much, to protect the clan and their cattle from theft and browbeatin, swift retribution is promised or implied.

Another cool one to think about is Honor amongst Thieves; this concept emerges usually because criminals have really large sums of cash or share lots of loot. If someone is to steal it from them they can't fall back on the legal system.

N.B. 2) Thanks Thaumarath. So in the North, an iconic frontier society in the Realms, the usual freeform sexuality for women is repressed somewhat. This makes sense to me, because I think the sexual mores of freedom are largely the work of temples of Shares and Sune, who in my mind hold more influence in the southern parts of the Realms, such as Calimshan, Tethyr and the Dragon Coast.

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Edited by - Bladewind on 16 Nov 2010 13:32:39
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  17:51:15  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking of honor in the feudal sense, of chivalry and knightly virtues. That tends to arise in areas with a strong authority, at least IRL. Strong lords hire knights to protect their realms, who must adhere to a certain code of conduct or loose their knighthood- at least in theory. In practice...? Maybe not so much.

I also think of the strict codes of personal and family honor of the Orient, which are also very defined. I tend to think of honor in the "Romantic" sense, of virtue of deed and courtesy toward others, in the traditions of medieval chivalry. I know that there is honor among "barbaric" societies, but it just does not have the same meaning for me. It is more subtle, relying mainly on respect for one's fellow tribesmen or for a common assumption on what is "good" or "right" within the context of the society, without any overt rules. It is simply understood, as opposed to more "civilized" cultures (like Waterdeep) where there are stated rules of conduct that are considered honorable.

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  03:59:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honor is arbitrary. And I'd like to see it remain so. When one faces an enemy he has no chance of defeating, but is honor-bound to try nonetheless because his friends have fought it and died, should he run away and fight another day, or stay and be slain? Some would view the latter as honorable, and worthy to be made a subject of a ballad. It's not just wasting his life; it's fighting for what he and his pals believe is right. But some would favor the former. What use is his 'attempt' to his deceased friends if he dies in the end?! Ergo, running away and vowing to better himself is what he must do. Prudence and honor often - if not always - go together. The moment he has equipped himself with more strength and sharper wits, he'd have a fair chance of emerging as victor in his future fight. This is one of the reasons I often detest knights. I prefer morality and values to be in shades of gray, not some doctrine imposed by those who think they are in the right position to do so.

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Edited by - Dennis on 17 Nov 2010 05:40:58
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  05:11:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a knightly code presented in the old FRA... From pages 2 and 3 of that resource, in the section under "Cavaliers":

quote:
The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.

  • Defend any responsibility given, even unto death;

  • A knight's word is his law;

  • Show courage in all things;

  • Show honor to those above one's station;

  • Earn respect from those below one's station;

  • Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit;

  • Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus);

  • Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier);

  • Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection;

  • Choose death before dishonor.



The same section also noted the knightly virtues:

quote:
The knightly virtues in the Realms are:

Honor
Bravery
Glory
Good faith
Unselfishness
Courtesy
Pride in self and others







Additionally, there were some knightly codes presented in Kobold Quarterly. Neither is canon for the Realms, but between the two there and the one in FRA, a good knightly code for any order can be knocked together. Some of the code can also be used for other religious orders, like particularly sects of clerics or monks. Page 30 of Kobold Quarterly 6 laid out the knightly code for peer knights, as was outlined in the Song of Roland. That code:

quote:
  • To fear God and maintain His Church

  • To serve a liege lord in valor and faith

  • To protect the weak and defenseless

  • To aid widows and orphans

  • To refrain from the wanton giving of offence

  • To live by honor and for glory

  • To despise pecuniary reward

  • To fight for the welfare of all

  • To obey those placed in authority

  • To guard the honor of fellow knights

  • To eschew unfairness, meanness, and deceit

  • To keep faith

  • At all times to speak the truth

  • To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun

  • To respect the honor of women (or the dignity of men)

  • Never refuse a challenge from an equal

  • Never turn the back upon a foe



Page 31 of that same volume discusses the Knights of the Palace, an order dedicated to maintaining their deity's holy sites. Their code:

quote:
A Knight of the Palace shall above all things:
  • Pay homage at any temple, shrine, or altar to the god before all things. At any image, temple, or place of worship, from the humblest roadside shrine to the greatest cathedral, they must spend at least one minute per level in prayer.

  • Seek, by purity and deed, to spread the word of the god – on arrival at any new settlement, the paladin must spread the word of his lord on the holy day of his church by holding a sermon.

  • Teach others the will of the lord by spreading his image – Once per level, the paladin must create a shrine to the god. The cost of this shrine shall be 100 gp at first level, 200 at 2nd, 400 at 3rd, 800 at 4th, and so on. The paladin must bless this shrine with his own toil and sweat by succeeding in at least a DC 10 +2/level Craft or Profession skill check (maximum DC 40) in constructing the shrine. The resulting shrine gains the effect of a hallow spell at the paladin’s CL.

  • Never knowingly lie

  • Never strike the defenseless

  • Never abandon his mount

  • Spread the holy word through deed

  • Spend the last hour each day in prayer

  • Be as brave as a lion

  • Be as strong as an ox

  • Be as wise as an owl

  • Offer succor and tending to all Knights of the Palace or their associates who suffer any ill

  • Offer service to any lord who owns a castle or stronghold who worships the same god. The service is one day per level, providing it is in keeping with the order’s beliefs, from the humblest and most menial task to the most glorious and demanding.



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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Nov 2010 05:12:55
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  05:45:57  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PATHFINDER's Taldor supplement also provides some useful insight as well.

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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
210 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  14:49:43  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 1E Oriental Adventures is a good source of info on honor in Kara Tur.

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2010 :  15:13:53  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats some great stuff there Wooly! Excellent!

I'll now try my hand at creating a similar list, but based on hobgoblin values. Hobgoblin seem to me as a race that is tightly honor-bound, but they value power and strength above all others. My guess would be their code of conduct would have emerged a very long time ago, to accentuate their difference to the other goblinoid races and to promote discipline and order in their armies. Civil wars among their own clans are mitigated because of their adherence to Strength (Ghaal), Duty (Maat) and Personal Honor (Atcha).

* To fear God and respect his shaman

* To serve a warlord in valor and faith

* To live by honor and for glory

* To protect the young and defenseless

* To gain respect by the wanton creating fear

* To obey those placed in authority

* To despise pecuniary reward

* Never refuse a challenge from an equal

* To fight for the welfare of all goblin-kind

* To guard the honor of fellow knights

* To eschew unfairness and deceit

* To keep faith

* To speak the truth to your betters

* To persevere to the end in any enterprise begun

* To respect the duty of women (or the strength of men)

* Never turn the back upon a foe

Its clear a hobgoblin values and respects domination above all, his honor is dependent on his ability to take life and make others risk their lives for him.





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althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
780 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2010 :  00:14:04  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have two concepts of honor running around in my head
as a cornerstone for a novel.

Father Claythorne: Honor is something bestowed upon you
for living up to somebody elses expectations.

Son Claythorne: Honor is self-earned through the constant
fulfillment of your own expectations.
up to your own standa
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2010 :  12:34:34  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Those are strong basic concepts I definitely agree work constantly in the Realms to shape the road to power and influence, Althen.

I see these basic concepts would also be a big part of the power of faith and the relationship to the divine most clerics have. By knowing a diety is always looking through the eyes of their worshipers into the direct world around them, most clerics know that the strength of their spells comes both their accomplishments and their divine blessings. Their behavior, directed by the dogma of their patron deity, is in constant scrutiny of real suprasciences and mere mortals alike. Only by living up to the expectations of both, both station and divine power can be increased.


I wonder though, with the power that comes from arcane magic, that repeatedly bends natural laws, mages would largely be able to transcend local laws as well. I'm not aware of alot of magi that want to adhere to some sort of honor code, when such would be considered very desirable in a magic rich society such as that in Faerun.

Perhaps there are novels that go deeper into this, that would give examples of what unwritten laws govern magi and their behavior. I would imagine Thay and Halruua have rich traditions that dictate the do's and don't of arcane interrelations. I can imagine a few examples though. Perhaps its an unsaid rule that a mage shall not talk about anothers research until the spell is completed (by himself or the rival), thus stopping the chance of unfinished spells running 'wild' resulting in catasrophic magic mishaps among lesser mages. Or that attacks on those magi of two circles less than yours is deemed dishonorable.

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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker

51 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2010 :  15:12:44  Show Profile  Visit Tren of Twilight Tower's Homepage Send Tren of Twilight Tower a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

Honor is arbitrary. And I'd like to see it remain so. When one faces an enemy he has no chance of defeating, but is honor-bound to try nonetheless because his friends have fought it and died, should he run away and fight another day, or stay and be slain? Some would view the latter as honorable, and worthy to be made a subject of a ballad. It's not just wasting his life; it's fighting for what he and his pals believe is right. But some would favor the former. What use is his 'attempt' to his deceased friends if he dies in the end?! Ergo, running away and vowing to better himself is what he must do. Prudence and honor often - if not always - go together. The moment he has equipped himself with more strength and sharper wits, he'd have a fair chance of emerging as victor in his future fight. This is one of the reasons I often detest knights. I prefer morality and values to be in shades of gray, not some doctrine imposed by those who think they are in the right position to do so.



So true...

My personal belief is that "hard-core" honour is for fanatics or witless. Those who live(d) through war or "unfriendly-streets" will know what I am talking about.

Even in a fantasy world, such as FR, I get disappointed to see some plain childish take on honour and choices of main characters.

For example, Threat From the Sea trilogy would be great read, if it was not for the main character. Not only is it a youngster that almost over the night became better fighter and seaman than those who spent life fighting and seafaring, but he also had such a childish personality and take on honour that it definitely spoiled otherwise well-written trilogy.

OT - Regardless of my disappointment with main character, I would recommend people to read the trilogy.


Tren
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2010 :  15:53:21  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Childish eh? The matter of what a community or a group of people values in people is a quite mature theme IMHO. Actions of fantasy people might seem 'senseless' to our modern minds, but a single 'craven' decision can stick to a family name and effect considerable numbers of lives of those in the family in the future.

Most adventurers are quite courageous, a value that's also an excellent motivator for them when facing terrible monsters and vicious humanoids. Got much more to add later.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 18 Nov 2010 :  23:28:43  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Every D&D book which publishes paladin, knight, cavalier, or crusader classes or kits describes some codified honour system similar to those mentioned above (1E PHB, DMG, UA, FR0; 2E PHB, DMG, PHBR1, FRA all come to mind).

Honour is ingrained by the laws, traditions, and culture of a society (or groups within the society) but is primarily of course a deeply personal thing. As such, every person is going to have a different perception of how to define it, what particular thought or deed is considered honourable or dishonourable. As dennis' above post indicates, the personal context is often as important as the group context; dying for a worthy cause or vowing to dedicate yourself to improving so you may return to finish the fight are both honourable paths, and either is just as viable when ambiguously defined within the codified expectations of your society, brotherhood, order, or whatever. A big part of most medieval honour systems (as we perceive it today, at least) is that the honourbound templar/knight/samurai was considered capable of governing his own actions and always choosing the honourable path for himself.

Although our romantic notions tend to view knightly codes as just and fair, there's no real reason why this actually was or should be the case. The noble paradigm of pure goodness is an appealing notion but probably glamourized and possibly not very accurate in any event.

Honourable champions in a lawful society seek to follow and enforce the rules and order of the lord, the land, and society. Moral intent is not weighed as heavily as the letter of codified laws, few exceptions are allowed. A hungry thief caught stealing bread has his hand chopped off (usually on the spot, to prevent anybody so caught from escaping the law) and that's the end of it. The champion upholds the law but his word is law as well, challenging him (outside of the legally recognized forms) is itself considered a disruptive and punishable crime.

Honourable champions in a good society seek to exemplify high moral values and punish only those who have proven they cannot be redeemed. Moral imperatives are the whole purpose of honour and held above all other considerations; the spirit of the law doesn't matter as much as doing the right thing. A hungry thief caught stealing bread would mercifully be given the chance to repay his debt, amend his wrongful ways, and be strongly encouraged to reform himself into a contributing member of society. If the thief then continued to steal, especially if for no reason beyond serving his selfishness or greed, he would be punished accordingly for the good of all society. The champion of good is expected to be righteous and respectful, unfailingly offer his blade to fight evil or defend the weak, but always tempers his blade with kindness, compassion, and respect.

Honourable champions in an evil society use the privileges of their station to take what is rightfully theirs away from those too feeble to oppose them, and bully those of lesser status into serving whatever purpose they declare is demanded by honour. Morality is entirely irrelevant, except where it affects the honour of the champion or his order or those whom he serves. A thief caught stealing for whatever reason is summarily punished as tradition requires (or involuntarily obligated to put his skills to some use which better serves the champion). Challenging the honour, words, or deeds of such a champion is cause for immediate execution at his hands, and he never needs to justify his actions to anyone of lesser station.

Many societies are both lawful and good, or lawful and evil, and combine these basic tenets accordingly (sometimes causing problematic issues with honour). Chaotic societies view honour as incomprehensible or stupid and, even when they have honourable champions, these can basically arbitrarily declare any rules they see fit. They are too individualistic to be constricted by the dictates of their (or somebody else's) imposed honour system.

(even though I despise ninja-worshipping, they serve as a fine example here)
A lawful evil ninja follows strictly codified rules and his honour demands that he serves his hierarchy unfailingly. How he acts outside of the rules is of no consequence, provided it doesn't interfere with his codified rules or affect others within his group. He can engage in private vendettas or missions all he likes, provided he doesn't get caught and his actions don't conflict with or draw attention to his order or his superiors. Ninjas who are perceived as acting dishonourably (or are dishonourable incompetents) are hunted down and executed at the hands of their brothers.

Of course there are quirks in culture and tradition which might change or define aspects of honour beyond these examples. Ancestor worship is important in many cultures. Obedience to a particular god (or gods) is important in others. Various aspects of religious or spiritual significance may be required by honour, though not always related to the worship of any gods. Sworn obedience or loyalty to some sort of lord, king, emperor, khan, or warlock is usually an important requirement. Chivalry (or Chauvinism) is often important in societies where genders have unequal status. Most medieval societies are based on a feudal system, in which honourable champions fit in a very specific niche within the hierarchy; typically below that of all but the lowest of nobility, yet elevated above the highest of the common people. Often, commoners can be promoted to honourable champion status (and thus enter the nobility) by demonstrating great deeds, prowess, or loyalty. Just as often, higher nobility (even the king himself) are expected to function as honourable champions of highest reknown.

And of course this is all entirely based on human conceptions - honour among chaotic elven bladesingers is a very real thing which humans can understand at the individual level more intuitively than the social one. The Githyanki fight honourably, even though others view them as inhumanly vicious and savage. Honour among orcs is based on strength and ferocity, and nothing else. Honour among dwarves is based on deeply instilled respect for dwarven traditions and solid craftsmanship (plus a fair amount of orc-bashing). Honour among halflings is beyond my ability to speculate.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 19 Nov 2010 00:58:51
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  03:40:49  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

And of course this is all entirely based on human conceptions - honour among chaotic elven bladesingers is a very real thing which humans can understand at the individual level more intuitively than the social one. The Githyanki fight honourably, even though others view them as inhumanly vicious and savage. Honour among orcs is based on strength and ferocity, and nothing else. Honour among dwarves is based on deeply instilled respect for dwarven traditions and solid craftsmanship (plus a fair amount of orc-bashing). Honour among halflings is beyond my ability to speculate.



I don't want honor to be 'codified' or defined, because almost every situation calls for a different type of action or response. What is honorable in one might not be honorable in another. Why waste time defining what honor truly is, when, simply put, it's but a mere 'reaction' to a situation?!

I hate characters thinking they did the right thing because that's what their order, organization, family, or fellow denizens believe he had to do. I want their reaction to be stemmed from personal level. There's no such thing as right or wrong, in the same way as there's no good or bad people, just people, as Elminster said in EMD.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  04:36:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some people require ordered codexes to simplify their priorities. Structure is instilled after a lifetime of following, striving, and becoming the elite champions of the land. Social programming.
The King, the Law, the Order, and the Church. Unit, Core, God, and Country. No real difference.

Other people prefer the freedom to decide for themselves. Structure is good, but imposing arbitrary hierarchies onto common sense is a waste of time. Also the product of social programming.
One problem people in this second group cannot abide is that the first group are invariably the ones in power.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  04:38:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

I hate characters thinking they did the right thing because that's what their order, organization, family, or fellow denizens believe he had to do. I want their reaction to be stemmed from personal level. There's no such thing as right or wrong, in the same way as there's no good or bad people, just people, as Elminster said in EMD.



But characters that are members of knightly orders don't make a distinction between what they feel is right, and what their order tells them is right -- those two things are often one in the same. They share those beliefs with others of their group, and that's why they form orders. Are we do devalue the beliefs of a member of an order, simply because he or she belongs to a group of like-minded individuals?

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idilippy
Senior Scribe

USA
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  04:44:36  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While your point on honor being an individual thing to some people is completely valid dennis, there is value in codifying what specific segments of the population believe to be honorable. Now if anyone is trying to make an objective definition of honor I would agree that would be completely impossible to codify, but laying out what honor is to different people is certainly possible.

Also, I don't understand your hatred of characters who follow a code of honor laid down by an organization, order, family, or society. Just because someone follows a code of honor doesn't mean that their reaction to a situation doesn't stem from their individual views, it simply means that their individual views coincide with the code of honor they are following. For example, a Morninglord of Lathander comes upon a village that is being preyed upon by a group of vampires and drops everything to help them, as the faith he follows demands that he stamp out the undead. Does this mean he wouldn't have stopped on his own if those rules weren't there, or is it because he would stop anyways that he became a cleric of Lathander in the first place?

Or maybe, for a non-FR example, we can take an example from the Knights of the Cross from the Dresden Files series. Without spoiling anything on the off chance anyone hasn't read the books these holy knights regularly come up against backstabbing evil demons who predictably break all promises and constantly use underhanded measures to deal with the knights, yet the knights themselves stick firm to their sense of honor, keeping any word they give to the evil demons and going so far as to unconditionally accept the surrender of these fiends when it is offered, showing them mercy and kindness even when they are 100% certain they will receive none in turn. Is this foolish? Maybe, Dresden himself thinks so on more than one occasion, but keeping their word and giving mercy when asked is part of their system of honor, and I admire them for it. For them there is no give in their honor system, no wiggling around for what is more convenient, even if the path their honor leads them to is much harder than the easy path would be they stick to their beliefs.

Also, I would argue your point that there is no such thing as right or wrong. There may be no arbitrary, absolute right and wrong but there are actions that are almost always right or wrong, as well as situations that have right or wrong responses to them. Still, I think your point was about absolute right and wrong which I mostly agree with, most actions are just actions, with their morality being dependent on the situation, only a few actions I can think of could be considered absolutely wrong.

Edit: Heh, look at that, I said the same thing Wooly did only his answer was short, to the point, and easy to understand while mine was convoluted and took up a paragraph as an example before reaching the point...

Edited by - idilippy on 19 Nov 2010 04:47:09
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Ayrik
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  04:51:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, but if the individual's goals are completely and always aligned with those his code of honour requires of him, then what's the point of even having that code? Just a bunch of redundant bureaucratic pageantry, no?

[/Ayrik]
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idilippy
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  05:13:55  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a way of passing that code onto others or as a way of uniting like-minded individuals who follow similar codes under a broader code? Or else maybe to have a list of virtues to aspire to that pushes the person following the code to better themselves. Those are a couple worthwhile reasons I can think of, less worthwhile ones might be for the sake of recognition or to exclude those who don't meet the "standards" of your view on honor.
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Ayrik
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  05:43:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So,
At best they perpetuate the code simply to reinforce programming and replace casualties. At worst they gain social recognition and exclusivity; ie, another way of saying they are a self-rewarding tyranny of elitist status quo. The King's watchdogs. Seems perversely dishonourable when viewed in this skeptical manner, even though it is not false.

Otherwise it doesn't really answer the question, I think. What's the point of having complex rules which are expected only to agree with what you'd decide to do anyways without them? At best they waste time and tax dollars, at worst they cause you problems when you act "dishonourably". So if everybody always acted honourably you wouldn't need the rules. If nobody ever acted dishonourably you would not only not need the rules, but you also wouldn't need the champions to enforce them. If everybody acted dishonourably then the rules are obviously flawed; or the people are flawed, in which case the rules don't do anything except require honourable people to subjugate them. Hmmm, round circle ... the rules serve no real purpose beyond "honourably" enforcing a self-rewarding tyranny of elitist status quo.

[/Ayrik]
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  06:28:17  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Arik, the problem with that is that NOT everyone behaves "honorably", which is why societies have rules of honorable behavior in the first place. And those rules are not always written or spelled out, either. Much of it is learned by children from their parents and others around them, and later passed on to their own offspring. It's one reason I think this world of ours is going downhill- parents don't tech kids about common courtesy and acting with respect and honor anymore, like they did in previous generations. Rules for codes of conduct are there to teach people to act in ways that their society as a whole deems to be right. Laws are not just elitist or exclusive tools of tyrannical status quo, as you put it- they are there because that society has decided they are necessary.

Honor is never self-serving, which is part of the point. It exists as a concept to teach people to think of others, to consider the consequences of their actions, and to make choices that are in the best interest of the community rather than themselves. The honor of the clan, family, country, or even personal honor are all based on the individual's need to be perceived favorably by one's peers. In this respect, even and "evil" person's sense of honor is unselfish...

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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 19 Nov 2010 06:39:29
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Dennis
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  06:53:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very well said, Arik.

In addition, what really vexes me is when a character refuses to do what he really, honestly wants just because what he needs, as directed by his order, should come above everything else. For instance, in the thick of the battle, a knight is informed by his fellow knight that his daughter is in grave danger as their city is attacked by rampaging dragons, with hardly no one to defend the city nor its inhabitants as most of the knights rally against the massive forces of a demented necromancer in the neighboring city. His order compels him to remain and fight, as all of them have to stop the necromancer in order to make the dragons sane again and cease besieging their city. He loves his daughter more than anyone or anything else, but he can't ignore his order's needs. So leave her to be torn, munched, and swallowed by insane dragons he does. Hah! Preposterous! Every time I read something like this, my 'tolerance dam' bursts, and I forthwith throw the book. The Real World is already fraught with absurdity. Why on earth would I want to see it in fiction, too?!

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idilippy
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  07:25:42  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok perpetuating a code of honor isn't the same thing as programming someone or replacing casualties, but I'll leave that aside and focus on the rest. I'm having trouble with your arguments here:
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

So if everybody always acted honourably you wouldn't need the rules. If nobody ever acted dishonourably you would not only not need the rules, but you also wouldn't need the champions to enforce them. If everybody acted dishonourably then the rules are obviously flawed; or the people are flawed, in which case the rules don't do anything except require honourable people to subjugate them. Hmmm, round circle ... the rules serve no real purpose beyond "honourably" enforcing a self-rewarding tyranny of elitist status quo.



Here are the problems I have with this reasoning:
-You propose that if everyone acted honorably you would need no rules, and if nobody acted dishonorably you would need neither rules nor enforcers. Ok, theoretically yes if everyone had the exact same views and never strayed from them you would not need rules, but rules are not the same thing as honor.

-Next you argue that if nobody follows the rules than either the rule or people are flawed. I can kinda see where you're going with this until you say, "in which case the rules don't do anything except require honourable people to subjugate them." Where does a code of honor require you to subjugate those who disagree with that code? Unless you're talking about laws, which are a completely different subject matter than honor, a code of honor isn't required to be followed by anyone who doesn't choose to follow that code of honor. Both your arguments so far are arguments against laws, not honor.

-Finally, even if we turned the discussion to rules instead of leaving it at honor, your argument only is valid for two impossible extremes, either for rules that everyone will always follow without exception, or for rules that nobody has or will ever follow, neither of which are applicable to the real world. Statistically you're basing your argument on the very far right and left portions of a normal curve, and ignoring the middle, namely rules that people occasionally follow and occasionally do not, such as not stealing from, raping, or murdering an innocent. These rules are necessary because people occasionally do not follow them, and enforcing them does not ""honourably" [enforce] a self-rewarding tyranny of elitist status quo.", and even if they did it has nothing to do with honor and everything to do with laws.

Edited by - idilippy on 19 Nov 2010 07:26:40
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Alystra Illianniis
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  07:26:08  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not absurd, dennis. People are forced to make such choices all the time, even IRL. It's like the old cunundrum of the burning building. There's a cat and the Mona Lisa inside, and you only have time to save one. Which do you choose? Save the cat, or the priceless work of art? In the case you described, while it may seem absurd to you, the knight would likely choose to stay and fight in any case, whether he knew what happened to his daughter or not. Why? Because, to quote Spock from Star Trek: Wrath of Khan, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few- or the one." That is the knight's honor. He may not like it, but saving the entire city is more important than his own selfish desire. Honor is putting your selfish wishes aside for a higher cause or need. It may suck sometimes to stick to it, but if one is true to his sense of honor, he can do no less. Even when it requires tremendous personal sacrifice. That does not mean he would simply pretend it doesn't matter, however. Most likely, he would finish the battle, in hopes that she will be safe once the dragons are sane again. If not, then he might very well be justified in going after the dragon that kills her- and his fellow knights might see nothing wrong with that.

BTW, I'm in agreement with you, idilippy....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 19 Nov 2010 07:31:37
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Dennis
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  07:40:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a plain, immutable preposterousness. He sacrifices his heart's true desire just because what his selfless order dictates is contrary to it.

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idilippy
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  07:50:08  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It happens all the time, albeit on a lesser scale, how many people from your high school didn't pursue the college degree they wanted because their family couldn't afford the loans required to support them in their educational pursuits? Or the marine(or maybe it was army) private in World War two who joined a new company and the first day jumped on a dud grenade believing it was real to save the lives of a foxhole full of strangers he just meant. Or for a more recent example, every firefighter who died in the World Trade Center rushing in to try and save strangers when they knew how dangerous and unstable the building was. Or that professional (american) football player for the Arizona cardinals who left his family and career to join the army because that's what he felt was the right thing to do. I'm sure there's hundreds or thousands of other examples of this kind of thing just in the real world, people sacrifice what they want for what they believe is right, or honorable, all the time and it is definitely not preposterous.
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Dennis
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  08:09:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by idilippy

It happens all the time, albeit on a lesser scale, how many people from your high school didn't pursue the college degree they wanted because their family couldn't afford the loans required to support them in their educational pursuits?



I don't see how you will insert an argument on 'honor' in that example.

quote:
Originally posted by idilippy

Or for a more recent example, every firefighter who died in the World Trade Center rushing in to try and save strangers when they knew how dangerous and unstable the building was.




Sacrificing one's life for the sake of others because that's what his job or the situation demands of him is fine only IF that's what he truly and honestly wants. Now, if, say, that same firefighter while rescuing the victims is informed that his daughter, recently heartbroken, is standing right at the top of a 60-story building and threatening to commit suicide if her boyfriend doesn't show up and promise to leave his current lover for her, but, even though he knows there are other firefighters who can save those poor victims and there's only him who can (and honestly wants to) talk sense to his daughter whom he values more than anyone and anything else in the world, he still abandons her to the cold clutch of death just because he's 'honor-bound' to stay where he is. Now tell me that's not stupid.

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idilippy
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USA
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Posted - 19 Nov 2010 :  08:34:18  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the first example the honor is not burdening your family with your debts but sacrificing what you want so they aren't stuck supporting you. As to the second, you're firefighter example is a little over the top, but let's run with it. First, the firefighter would have to abandon his team in the midst of a horrible situation, possibly condemning them all to die, or someone to die in his place, then he is condemning anyone he would have saved to die, since he won't be there to do it. And finally, how does he know his daughter is in trouble or that he can do anything to help anyways? Are you making a parallel between a situation in a book because if so maybe you should just say what the example is so I can see what you're trying to get across.

If there's ever a situation where, as you said, the firefighter could leave and know that his leaving won't cause any harm then of course his daughter is more important, and most honor codes would allow for you to go where you can do the greatest good. If, say, the firefighter was on his way to the site and had 5 backups that were just sitting around and are as good or better than him, but he was the only one in the entire world who could help his daughter and he knew without a doubt she would die unless he, and no one else, went to her, then it might be stupid to stay. But, if the firefighter was the best around, or the leader of his team, or his team would be undermanned without him than it would not be stupid to stay. It would be hard, very, very, very hard, and maybe he can't live with holding his beliefs and doing his duty at the cost of his daughter's life, but honor isn't about easy and if he made the decision to stay where he was needed and obligated to be it wouldn't be stupid.
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