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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2007 :  02:47:51  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
Awesome answer! Thanks so much. It also kind of proves once again that the novels don't always show the "full picture".

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Jul 2007 02:48:31
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2007 :  04:54:31  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
A pleasure, good lady! And I believe Ed's next lore reply will tackle your paladins-in-love questions, too . . .
love,
THO
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2007 :  19:21:50  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message
Dear Ed and Lady THO,
Some Dming pointers, if you will...
I want to incorporate a murder mystery into a nobles' revel in Cormyr. How should I foreshadow, or should I?
Build up characters without being obvious?
Etc.
Thanks!
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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2007 :  23:40:20  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

A pleasure, good lady! And I believe Ed's next lore reply will tackle your paladins-in-love questions, too . . .
love,
THO

Ah, even I am looking forward to this one!

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2007 :  01:28:38  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all. Once more I bring you the Words of Ed, this time in response to Rinonalyrna Fathomlin’s paladin questions (oh, and BTW, RF: Ed hasn’t forgotten your 2006 Harrowsmouth request; he’s just been patiently waiting out another NDA): “My first question is about "paladin love"--what is appropriate behavior for a paladin regarding relationships and love-making? I frequent the forums for the Neverwinter Nights 2 CRPG, and not surprisingly, one of the topics that players love to discuss all the time is the subject of the in-game romances. The romance option for female player characters happens to be a paladin, and there is a particular group of players (mostly female) who love to talk about him (and the other male characters in the game), and a recent topic that came up is how paladins are "supposed" to act in matters of love? Although I'm fully aware that Faerun has very different sexual mores than the real world, I have to admit that I--and many of the other ladies--tend to have an old-fashioned, idealistic view about how paladins form relationships and how they behave towards the people they are in love with. My rationale for this is that since paladins aren't supposed to act like the "average joe" in all the other aspects of their life, they probably shouldn't behave in all the same ways many other people do when it comes to love. I also am sort of a sucker for the idea of "courtly love". I was wondering what your opinion is about this topic: for example, do you think most paladins would be comfortable with the idea of being "friends with benefits" with someone? Or, having a one-night stand if both parties agreed ahead of time that that was all there was to it--just one night of enjoyment in each other's company, but no further obligations besides that? How would most paladins approach the subject? I, and several other ladies, look forward to hearing your opinion.”
Ed replies:



Acceptable “paladin-in-love behaviour” in the Realms varies greatly by faith, but let me begin with (and confine myself in this answer to) the traditional “lawful good, akin-to-Christian” paladin, as exemplified in the Realms by Torm, Tyr, and Helm (with Tempus not too far off in one direction, and Ilmater in the other).
Firstly, this sort of paladin (male or female) must conduct all relationships with complete honesty: not necessarily full disclosure, but no “little white lies” and no breaking of rules, from known laws and social customs of the geographical area, to the paladin’s own code. The paladin WILL NOT set aside their principles “for love,” unless this love overwhelms their paladinhood (they “fall” to being a fighter, albeit probably still dedicated to that faith, and abandon their holy standing).
A paladin may well keep information from their loved one (see Kipling’s Ballad of Bo Da Thone: “And little she knew the arms she embraced/Had cloven a man from the brow to the waist”) FOR THE PROTECTION OF THAT LOVED ONE (so as not to imperil them by letting them know information that might get them slain, AND so as not to harm them emotionally; please note that “looking good” in the eyes of a loved one or potential partner is NOT sufficient justification for a paladin to withhold information). Paladins do not “tease and deceive” in love; they are “straight arrows” who plainly state matters (“what you see is what you get; this is what I am, and I cannot change what I am; take me if you can accept this”).
If a paladin is silent on a subject and the loved one asks them a direct question about it, the paladin can plead not to be made to answer, express their unhappiness at being questioned, or (only if this is the case) refuse to answer because of church instructions (revealing what agents of a temple are planning to do about something, for example), but it will be a sin for them to lie (and if I was DMing and a paladin tried, I’d provide an instant manifestation of divine displeasure, from a roll of thunder that shakes the paladin on up to far more severe things, if the falsehoods or deliberate misleadings continue).
Paladins by their nature stand in judgement of most individuals they meet, but the true paladin does so ever mindful of the harm done by hasty or intolerant judgements, and the inability to give individuals an opportunity to explain, repent or change (somewhat in the way that Peter Pan in the movie HOOK repeatedly spares the temporarily-beaten Captain Hook, though not necessarily for the reasons that movie character did his sparing).
At the same time, paladins are very mindful of their own special status, and (unlike a lot of real-world so-called “holy folk” or for that matter law enforcers) are VERY afraid of misusing their status (they are NOT gung-ho, “we’re in charge here! Perish, evil one!” bellowers, unless they know exactly who or what they’re facing).
This means that a paladin who recognizes their growing feelings for someone is going to pray to their deity (often and deeply, with vigils and perhaps self-imposed penances or self-mortification, from hair shirts to floggings; I have played two NPC paladins in such circumstances, one of either human gender, and both of them secretly applied rough bark and or stinging nettles to their genitals for days, so that pain was a constant reminder of what they should be pondering, and the importance they must place in all decisions regarding their feelings of love) for guidance (are my feelings real? Am I being magically influenced? and if yes, then: Is this for the best? Is it acceptable? and if yes, then: How should I conduct myself? What should I say and do, and do you demand a price be paid on my part?)
These will be private prayers, seeking dream-vision or outward sign responses from the deity or a divine servant (e.g. a eagle or stag or other “identified with the deity” creature or thing, such as a cloven rock or lightning-scarred tree or spilled blood) rather than from priests of the deity. (The paladin may request floggings from a cleric of their deity “with no questions asked” in an attempt to aid them in prayer or to pay a price they believe the deity has asked them to pay; a priest should agree not to pry if thus approached, recognizing it as part of a personal process of peity, NOT something that necessarily involves confession.)
Whatever the specific personal responses, two rules should be followed: the deity will never demand a “love-price” that is to be paid by the partner (any task or penance is the duty of the paladin, not the paladin’s loved one), and the paladin will always declare honestly their feelings BUT THEN WAIT for the loved one to “go farther.” That fear of misusing one’s “holy status” means the paladin will not “press themselves upon” the loved one (in the words of Torm’s temple teachings: “When loins-fire takes hold of you, rape a rock or tree, never the living one who so excites you”). So the loved one must make matters more intimate, at all stages of the deepening relationship (the paladin can ask them to, and explain that their own behaviour is constrained).
All of this means “one-night stands” are VERY unlikely for paladins (if they truly are one-night stands, as opposed to trysts that happen suddenly after a long time of adventuring or travelling together has built up strong feelings in both participants).
There is a distinction to be drawn here between love and lust. Many faiths understand that paladins and priests have physical needs, and they want love to be given first to the deity, so that “passion” must often be tamed or given an outlet. As a result, there are temple rituals that involve masturbation, and there are approved opportunities for sexual trysts between paladins of the same faith (or in some cases closely-allied faiths), and between paladins and clerics of the same faith. These are “lust, not necessarily love” moments, are usually kept to the privacy of inner temple rooms where non-believers of that faith can’t go, and are the closest thing to “friends with benefits” that the Realms allows. They DO involve enjoyment but no further obligation, though many paladins and priests who participate in such activities develop long-term, comfortable, recurring “moments of release when we meet, and the deity seems approving” relationships that are distinct and apart from feelings of love for others (that may, for example, be unrequited or unexpressed for years; Thalamond the Just Blade of Torm could very well lie in the arms of Braelra, Altar Guardian of Torm, after fierce lovemaking, and weep softly to her of his love for another woman, who does not yet know of his feelings, or whom he has “made known” his feelings to but received no positive response, and so on; this would be quite understandable to Braelra, who would honour him for so confiding in her, not be angered or feel scorned).
So you are quite correct in seeing paladins as “different” from most other intelligent creatures, in holding themselves to a far more strict code of personal conduct, even when “overwhelmed with love.” Paladins often do indulge in the long-chaste “courtly love” of the romances, though again an important note must be made: it is acceptable to “exaggerate” the praise and charms of a loved one in writing poems and singing songs (comparing them favourably to a famous beauty when the comparison flatters them highly, for example), but during actual courtship (face to face speech and dealings), honesty must trump flattery. If a paladin swears they will be true or will perform a duty, they are bound by those vows; renouncing them usually means resigning their paladinhood. Dying before they can fulfill them often dooms them to become undead until they can fulfill whatever they promised - - and as a result, they will be far more reluctant to make flowery promises than was apparently done (if we can believe the epics) in the courtly love described by real-world historical troubadors.



So saith Ed, who picked his way very carefully around a VERY sensitive topic. I can add one memory from Realmsplay that he didn’t mention: two male NPC paladins who “fell for” the same PC woman, who knew they dare not say or do anything at the time (a time of war against Zhentil Keep in the Dales, when the PCs could ill afford any distractions) whom a certain other PC adventurer stealthily followed one night, and observed them to go to a remote forest glade, disrobe, and flog each other simultaneously with furious energy, gasping out their shared misery to each other as they did so. It was a striking contrast to the calm, assured “fronts” the two paladins had presented to the PCs earlier - - and a real jolt to witness.
I’ve never forgotten that particular scene, and the moral dilemma it handed the PC. One more reason Ed is a superb DM.
love to all,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 04 Jul 2007 01:31:04
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2007 :  02:08:35  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message
*scribblescribble* *cackle* *more scribbling*
Indeed!
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Rolindin
Seeker

USA
46 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2007 :  03:01:50  Show Profile  Visit Rolindin's Homepage Send Rolindin a Private Message
MR Greenwod: I read your answer to the aging question.
Here's something along that line I have a question too.

It seems to me that the answer is more human answer, what about the other races.
Do the elfs, half elfs, dwarfs, halfings have some of the same aspects? Do the other races still try to keep young in certain ways magical and non magical, to stay young. Or do they repect their elders and think that they are beautful, such as a older dwarf, elf, halfling "women".

Has the human element(trying to look young) enflunaced the other races and they try to stay young and hide their age in certain certstances?
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2007 :  08:42:10  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
That was a heartfelt description of a difficult dual road some paladins choose to lead.

Thanks to both the OP and Ed for the enlightenment.
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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 04 Jul 2007 :  09:00:11  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message
Thank you for the information about paladins, Mr. Greenwood and Lady THO. I'm going to make sure that one of my players (and big paladin fan) reads this as well.

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 05 Jul 2007 :  23:37:46  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message
Yes, thank you both very much for the lovely answer. I appreciate it--and so do my fellow female paladin-lovers. ;)

I look forward to hearing about Harrowsmouth whenever possible--thanks for the update on that.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2007 :  21:29:49  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all. I bring you a rushed response from Ed (who has been wildly busy once again with future FR fun for us all) to createvmind, in hopes that it’s in time for the game session.
createvmind asked: “Sir Greenwood I have a cleric of Azuth who thinks he has the option of when he can pray if at dusk he is doing something like discussing treasure distribution and so when he's done then he will pray even if it's several hours later. The player constantly refers to the text of praying at the next available moment and I always state he can pray at dusk, nothing is stopping him at all from disengaging from talking and show dedication to his deity. I want to know how deities handle those whose piety is somewhat based on convience, is it an abrupt disconnect from the divine or is he sent a dream letting him know impending wrath or dismissal from the diety is coming? How would you handle this, he's done it for past 4 days straight even though I inform him every sundown is approaching. The next game is friday and if he does it again I want to be able to have some insight as to how to approach it.
Thanks as always”
Ed replies:



Ah, yes, the “just holy enough to get my spells” attitude. GREAT (heavy sarcasm there) service to the deity. Time to adjust that attitude (no retroactive punishments are necessary, but start what follows right away).
Here are the relevant Words of Azuth:
“Neglect me not!
If you are engaged in actually CREATING a spell (including experimenting, but NOT including repeated castings “for practice”) and don’t notice it’s sundown, that’s okay, because the acting of crafting magic is itself worship of Me. If you are engaged in keeping yourself alive (midst of a fight, frantic fleeing, hiding and remaining silent so that prayers to me have to be thought and not said), that’s also acceptable. Unless you do it repeatedly and I perceive any deliberate intent on your part to schedule things so as to avoid worshipping me. Or you realize you’ve missed sundown and decide not to bother praying to me.
NO other reasons for “turning your face from me” are acceptable, except personal and direct instructions from Me.
If you neglect your devotions, you stray from my favour. And shall be “rewarded” accordingly.”
So, createvmind, the next time the cleric prays to Azuth, no spells will be granted. Not one. Instead, the cleric will receive a “waking vision” (dream-vision even though not asleep) delivering the Words of Azuth I have just set down here. It will be a vision that everyone else in the presence of the cleric will also see and hear, not just the cleric character. The cleric will see a disembodied, floating man’s hand accusingly pointing at him as the words are spoken (the “Uncle Sam Wants YOU!” pose), but everyone else will see a 9-foot-tall, slender, black-robed, bearded man just standing (on air, a few feet off the ground) and looking at the cleric in head-shaking, weary disgust.
The hand (and the image of the man) will vanish in an instant with the deity’s last words, which will be delivered after any reaction the cleric makes (no matter what it is). Azuth will say flatly: “[[character’s name]], you have sinned. Sins are never forgotten, but they can be forgiven. It all depends on your conduct.”
If the player really is careless or defiant, Azuth will deliver the warning (and withholding of spells) thrice (the third time will have an extra sentence added to those last words: “You will receive no more warnings.”
A fourth transgression will be answered with a bolt of blue lightning from the sky that staggers the PC, does no hit point damage at all, but strips the PC of his priesthood (he can still be a cleric, but not of Azuth or of Mytra, for the two deities stand together on such matters), and “brands” him with an invisible Sign that tells all devout worshippers and clergy of Azuth that “This entity was once favoured of Azuth, but is no longer.” (Note that they won’t shun or be hostile to the outcast, because Azuth’s commandments will be to encourage magic use in all, and specifically to offer opportunities to this being to “return to the mantle,” but neither will they take commands from or offer unhesitating or free assistance to the outcast.)
A (truly) heartfelt atonement or penance will be necessary for Azuth to restore the cleric to his former position (“testing” [humiliating] tasks must be performed, services done freely for others as directed in holy dream-visions, etc.) after being thus cast out. Restoration will be to the former level and standing, not a “start all over again” situation, and will involve the Sign being removed.
While cast out, the cleric can get NO divine spells (he can use items intended for clerics, but items specific to Azuth will not function in his possession). He will have to actively join another faith (worship, do tasks as requested, etc.) to gain even orisons and first and second level spells.
One of the worst ongoing problems, from the very first edition of the game, has been players who treat clerics as “fighters who can get healing spells, and blackmail or financially rob fellow party members and others with the use or withholding of such magics.” Particularly if said players “twist” the principles of the faith around freely to suit their own gain in any given situation, or play in a campaign where the dogmas are vague or undeveloped enough to let them “make their religion be whatever it personally suits them to be.” That offends against play balance, not just annoying DMs, other players, and offending ethically. Playing a cleric should MEAN something - - or shouldn’t be undertaken at all.



So saith Ed. Who is really far more of a softie than he sounds here, but I know that he’s “saying what needs to be said.”
love to all,
THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 07 Jul 2007 02:36:47
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2007 :  21:33:11  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
By the way, all, Ed has apparently spent some time, these last few days, assembling some old, old Realms sketches he did years ago. (He has said not a word about this; I visited and peeked.) I can guess what they're for, but . . . well, we'll have to wait and see.
love,
THO
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  00:53:37  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Thank you, thank you and THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The multi- spiritual weapon question was in regards to this PC as well, you hit it right on the head with th "holy enough for spells" attitude. He was intially a follower of Sarvas and was clearly trying to use the "we can do as we please because the dogma is vague" and I had him lose his ability to cast anything higher than 1st lvl. We'll see if he gets into his devout cleric role or not, somehow I suspect he will chaff under someone else's authority, he's just made like that.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  00:54:44  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
Oooh! Ancient Realms sketches. Are these, perhaps, from the days of 1e/2e my lovely Lady? Maybe even from before the time of the officially published Realms of TSR?

I'm postively tingling with excitment!

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe

Australia
313 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  01:27:18  Show Profile  Visit Zandilar's Homepage Send Zandilar a Private Message
Heya,

A quick question, but probably not a quick answer...

How do people become clerics (or druids, or rangers, or paladins, or any other class that derives it's power from divine favour)? Do people just decide to become a cleric and enroll in the local priest school? Or do they receive some sign from their deity, some calling that they can't ignore? If it's the latter, I suppose it would vary from deity to deity, but are there any sort of common themes to the calling/sign?

Edited to add: Oh, and is it possible for a divine related class character to serve more than one deity? I'm looking at Qilue here, but she's quite different to your run of the mill PC type.

If this has been answered before, I'm sorry to ask it again. Unfortunately this morning I don't have the time to comb through the archives myself.

Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~

As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.

The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again.

Edited by - Zandilar on 07 Jul 2007 02:10:04
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Faraer
Great Reader

3295 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  01:52:32  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
O Ed, a person on the Wizards.com boards says they're arguing with people who think Realms priests are monolaters who give absolutely no worship, reverence or praise to any but 'their' god. Pray, a few sentences about that?
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  02:30:37  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Faraer, off that request shall go to Ed, for a swift response.
And Sage, Ed had dated all of the sketches I saw, and at least one had "1986" on it. They are small, thumbnail scenes and head shots, not "proper illustrations." Black-and-white line, some pointualism, a variety of styles. As readers of the long-ago Dragon know (check out the illustration of the Gaund, for instance) Ed is quite a good illustrator. I have a strong suspicion as to when and how we'll see them (or at least some of them), but Ed will confirm nothing.
Yet. Heh-heh.
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  02:33:36  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello again, all. This time Ed responds to createvmind’s query: “Ed I was rereading the Sembia novel which you wrote with several others and I am trying to understand how UMD works in Faerun, I assume that if a noncaster with no UMD points is told exactly how to fire a wand or activate an item he/she is able to do so regardless of whether it's arcane or divine. If he/she isn't aware of how to activate an item then they must make a UMD check, yes? I'm recalling Thamalon's father letting fly with the magic wands and items during the night attack.”
Ed replies:



Those Stormweather “house items” had either been made for the lord wielding them, or he’d been trained by a “house wizard” in their use (training in this case meaning practice under instruction, with actual “firing” or discharging of the item a “must”). As a result, he could use them just fine despite being a non-caster. The same would follow for anyone not of too-low intelligence or seriously-impaired dexterity. And yes, anyone told EXACTLY how to activate an item can do so, assuming the item isn’t itself governed by magical conditions that limit activators by alignment, gender, race, or some other limitation the “anyone” doesn’t “fit” with.
However, as anyone who has fired a gun or activated a fire extinguisher or tried to drive a car for the first time learns, turning the thing on isn’t the same as “hitting what you’re aiming at” or otherwise safely and successfully using it (to avoid bloody and horrible examples, let me just remind movie viewers of the tribal chieftan discovering machine guns at the end of the rescue-the-dinosaurs kids’ movie BABY). DMs often wear evil smiles upon such occasions for very good reasons. Now, as a DM I tend to be a bit of a softie: I’m not interested in killing or maiming PCs, or ruining good adventuring on their part by plunging them into utter disaster, because of a moment of recklessness or desperation on one PC’s part (I WILL “reward” PATTERNS of reckless, careless, or stupid behaviour, however). I tend to have “PC magic item” screwups be comical, dramatic, and help the PCs as much as they hinder the PCs, but in unexpected ways (blowing up a castle turret full of treasure the PCs were after, but by doing so blocking onrushing enemies and giving the PCs a chance to escape, for instance . . . or having the PC blasting away with an uncontrolled “wild” wand damage all sorts of valuables and make everyone run for cover, reducing some PCs to scorched near-nakedness with a loss of their magic weapons and treasure - - but out of sheer chance [Tymora has a sense of humour] toppling the evil wizard from his perch on high, so he can’t blast the PCs; that sort of thing).
Please note: familiarity grants fair competence with a particular item or items, NOT “all wands like that one” or “every magic sword of similar heft.” UMD comes in when trying to extend trained competence with one wand to being able to use others.



So saith Ed. Who should really be hit with Realms questions more than rules questions, folks (please understand this is just a general reminder, not a criticism of createvmind, because this particular query is a “how do you run it in the Realms” question, and therefore fits Ed’s lap just fine. Ahem, somewhat as I do.
love to all,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31689 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  02:49:21  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

And Sage, Ed had dated all of the sketches I saw, and at least one had "1986" on it.
So, 1986, eh? Neato!
quote:
They are small, thumbnail scenes and head shots, not "proper illustrations." Black-and-white line, some pointualism, a variety of styles.
Interesting. I look forward to seeing how they'll be put to use.
quote:
As readers of the long-ago Dragon know (check out the illustration of the Gaund, for instance) Ed is quite a good illustrator.
I do, in fact, recall that image. As it happens, it ended up being the inspiration for something in a long-ago DRAGONLANCE campaign. Heh.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  03:42:46  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
And it's not even my birthday, thank you so much.

And yes I am all about realmslore, a fiend for it in fact so on that note, what mutated kinds of trolls and troll blooded creatures dwell within the Trollbark woods and Troll Moutains is what I want to know? Figured I'd appraoch it from a different angle since still patiently awaiting a reply on how trolls keep up with the "arms/magic race".
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
653 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  08:25:54  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message
Dear Ed,

In another thread (url]http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9569[/url]) Markustay brought up the question as to which degree the I3-5 Desert of Desolation series was canon. I know that the module was basically a compilation module of modules which had been written before the Forgotten Realms became a TSR-published setting. Some additional material was written to fit the original modules into the Forgotten Realms (reference to Elminster, Durpar, etc.). Although I would never say that it seems a bit like a square peg and a round hole (I'd say the hole was hexagonal), it seemed a bit odd that the first module to be marketed as "Forgotten Realms" would be set in a very peripheral region, which since has not received all that much attention. Were you involved in the creation of the additional material, and if so, can you shed some light on how this interesting decision was reached?

Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/.
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Rolindin
Seeker

USA
46 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  09:55:39  Show Profile  Visit Rolindin's Homepage Send Rolindin a Private Message
If you don't mind a quick question Mr. Greenwood.
The question is this have you ever though about writting a book or series with another author?
Such as Mercedes Lackey, James Mallory, Sara Douglass, L. E Modesitt, jr, R. A. Salvature, Phillip Athans, Douglas Niles, Abby Lyyn, Harry Turtledove or any other author.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2007 :  13:51:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Rolindin

If you don't mind a quick question Mr. Greenwood.
The question is this have you ever though about writting a book or series with another author?
Such as Mercedes Lackey, James Mallory, Sara Douglass, L. E Modesitt, jr, R. A. Salvature, Phillip Athans, Douglas Niles, Abby Lyyn, Harry Turtledove or any other author.





You are aware, are you not, of the Realms books that Ed has co-authored? He's co-written at least three, that I can think of: Cormyr (with Jeff Grubb), Death of the Dragon (with Troy Denning), and The City of Splendors (with Elaine Cunningham).

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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5037 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2007 :  01:40:27  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, everyone. As promised, I whisked Faraer’s query: “O Ed, a person on the Wizards.com boards says they're arguing with people who think Realms priests are monolaters who give absolutely no worship, reverence or praise to any but 'their' god. Pray, a few sentences about that?” off to Ed, and here’s his swift reply:



Given the way priests have been portrayed in much published Realms fiction (many fanatics, or single-minded clerics striving to survive and accomplish things in moments of crisis, even divine crises) that’s an understandable view of Realms clergy to reach.
Understandable, but wrong.
There are fanatics and other individual exceptions to every statement about the religious behaviours of any group of beings, but in general we can make these general statements:
1. Successful priests in the Realms tend to be beings who are most comfortable devoting the majority of their time, efforts, and attention to one deity.
2. All intelligent, reasonably sane, old-enough-to-understand-the-basics-of-life-around-them beings in the Realms KNOW there are multiple gods, believe in those gods, and respect and worship many of those gods often, and many more deities occasionally, when they deem it appropriate.
To elaborate on this: gamers who have difficulty conceiving of how folk believe and behave in a polytheistic setting are usually those who come from a real-world monotheistic background (Christian, for example, but it could just as easily be Zoroastrian or Muslim); consciously or unconsciously, this colours their thinking.
A priest in the Realms puts “their” deity first, but would consider it “crazed” to deny or ignore the existence of other deities, often works with or actively honours other deities (particularly deities allied to their own, in alliances such as the Triad, or the close bond between Azuth and Mystra), and would probably be awed in the presence of the avatar or a manifestation of ANY deity.
The current game approach to godhood unfortunately leads some gamers to think of gods as superheroes or supervillains, that valiant PCs can readily vanquish if they just get power enough (or get lucky, or both), and not something inherently greater than mortals. The “awe” and “wonder” get lost in the rush to check an avatar’s hit points so they can be slain.
Let us look at some anonymous sample priests for a moment. These holy folk will have a roster of “duty” or “expected” prayers to their primary deity (always pray to Azuth at sundown, or Lathander at sunrise, and so on). On top of that, they will be moved by their feelings, events, or commandments of their superiors to add additional “heartfelt” prayers.
They will also have moments of personal, private contemplation, during which they will usually strengthen their primary faith by reasoning things through, and by contesting dogma against the teachings or beliefs or divine utterances of other faiths, comparing and contrasting. So they compare, say, Torm’s LG law-and-order approach to the “tooth and claw” natural order of Malar, or various CG or NG or NE-based “rules” or legal systems. So a good priest knows and understands at least the basics of other faiths. They KNOW Talos has control over storms, Tymora over good fortune and Beshaba over bad, and so on.
They also know that there are two supports of worship everyone practices, all the time: reverence and appeasement. As do all other beings, they too practice both sorts of worship.
They worship “their own” god reverently, but give prayers and even offerings to other deities to ward off the displeasure or active hostility of that other deity, as daily needs arise (I, Zorsel, priest of Ilmater, have to travel by ship, so Umberlee sink not my ship, Talos send no storms against it, and I’d better pray to Tymora for good fortune, and pray to several other deities for successful navigation and voyaging, too . . . I shall of course flog myself and then dip up salt water from over the side to wash my wounds while praying to Ilmater, so as to suffer and so venerate Ilmater during the voyage).
In like manner, a devout priest of Bane will still murmur a prayer to Tymora for luck to be on his side when going into a dangerous meeting with superiors, and that is NOT considered an affront to Bane. Cursing by this deity or that is considered blasphemous only in particular contexts. It would a sin for a priest of a primarily LE faith to seek important spiritual guidance in prayers to a CG deity, yes, but not to appease that deity by a swift offering or prayer.
Remember, “faith” in the Realms does not mean “believing God exists without direct evidence.” It means knowing ALL gods exist (though some of them may actually be other gods, working through different guises or avatars; priests aregue about such things and non-priests tend to leave such debates to priests) and taking on “faith” that this mortal priest’s command or teachings or interpretation is in accordance with the god’s true wishes (or doing one’s own interpretation of dream-visions, and trusting one is right until told or shown different by the god).
There are of course opposed deities (Chauntea versus Eldath, Shar versus Sêlune) and unlikely combinations of clashing faiths, that would make worship of one deity by a priest of another highly unlikely. Common sense will identify these to any DM, but even they can be altered for a given campaign, if desired, by shifting divine alignments and portfolios. However, the published Realms tries to present a consistent “starting basis” Realms for all DMs to trust in.
That same published Realmslore - - except comments by me, here and there, down the years - - has indeed neglected “appeasement” worship, though it’s been in print since issue 54 of The DRAGON (unless my memory of what got edited out of that article is faulty) in favour of “reverent” worship.
It is also true that religious leaders, novices in the first “bloom” of their fervent desire to serve, and certain “enforcer of the faith” priests all tend to be fanatics or to cleave to “one god matters, ignore the others” views, but such attitudes rarely survive for long - - and many who APPEAR to hold them actually worship other deities in private, either silently and inwardly or in small “hedge one’s bets” ways such as a murmured name, touching a flower held sacred, pausing to enjoy a sunrise or sunset to silently honour another deity associated with that phenomenon, and so on.
The Knights of Myth Drannor once examined the body of a recently-slain Zhentarim priestess of Bane, and found that her nipples were scarred with many small burns. Employing magic to learn more, they discovered that she feared becoming too proud and tyrannical, and to guard against this would steal off alone into ruins, to lie down and secretly burn stubs of holy altar candles of Ilmater that she mounted on her own breasts, praying to both Bane and Ilmater as they burned down to gutter out.
Torm of the Knights later learned that upon her death, Bane had through visions sent a dedicated priest of Bane to an altar of Ilmater, to there make a rich and public offering in the name of the dead priestess.



So saith Ed. Illustrating just how rich and deep his ideas of religion in the Realms are. At the same time, one can understand the practical reasons that TSR “back in the day” would avoid publishing a lot of this material.
love to all,
THO
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Faraer
Great Reader

3295 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2007 :  14:16:18  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message
Fantastische. Ever flexible with wordcount, to our gain!
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